Sora Vs Giratina (5th strongest non-smurf 2-A)

[Bobsican]

Both at 2-A, speed equalized

Sora: 9 (Me, @TheKingStrategist13, @ThanatosX, @Hasty12345, @LeoEpicGamer8910, @TauanVictor, @Setsuna_tenma, @Ret_of_Guys, @Doggo)

Giratina: 0

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Following for now, interested to see how this goes.

 

[theultimate5105]

Giratinas range is actually beyond baseline (as is its type 8), the other CT members only have their type 8 beyond baseline
so what stops BFR+Sealing

 

[Everything12]

So basically every single game sold is canonically it's own world, which leads to their being tens/hundreds of millions of worlds, except each of these worlds contains their own collection of an infinite number of parallel universes/timelines.

This is the infinite space and infinite time of the Pokémon world, and outside all this is the Distortion World, it's equal and opposite. With Girtaina's true form being this Distortion World.

 

[Bobsican]

Uh... Sealing Negation?

 

[Everything12]

Question, what is Sora's lifespan like?

 

[Bobsican]

He doesn't have longevity or type 1 immortality, if that's what you mean, the heart is eternal, however, and can be transfered to other hosts should the need arise.
If you mean his daily activities, he constantly goes around multiple universes to deal with the forces of darkness and some mundane stuff every now and then.

 

[Everything12]

Giratina is very patient.

 

[Bobsican]

the heart is eternal, however, and can be transfered to other hosts should the need arise.

 

[Everything12]

We both know that isn't in-character for Sora to do.

 

[Bobsican]

Actually...

In character, but will attempt to win the battle. Characters will not give up of their own accord. That means a character that is uninterested or sees no chance of winning won't simply leave and characters wouldn't simply become friends with each other. This doesn't prevent a character being made to give up, because the other character manipulates them via things like, for example, mind control, fear inducement, psychological tricks or superhuman charisma.
Each character will view their opponents as enemies, who they have to assume wish to cause them severe harm such that losing could have any range of dire consequences. The characters will assume their opponents have not been forced into battle. They are assumed to have decided from free will to fight and are not excused by a just cause, difficult times or otherwise exonerating circumstances. Furthermore, the situation is assumed one where the opponents are not protected by social norms or consequences, such as being a civilian protected by law.

- SBA

Leaving aside that per this Sora would try to stay around at any cost, I don't think waiting out would be in-character for Giratina given the conditions placed by SBA, especially as going by the lore.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

... If somehow the argument is that Giratina Seal's Sora and/or just wait's out for a gazillion years, I heavily doubt that will work seeing that Sora can Unseal any lock/negate sealing, and that under SBA...


"Victory Conditions: Death of the opponent, removing the opponent from the battlefield for at least one week (BFR), knocking the opponent out for at least one hour, or incapacitating the opponent by putting him in a state in which he can not harm the other fighter(s) for over a day, are to be assumed as victory conditions.

State of mind: In character, but will attempt to win the battle. Characters will not give up of their own accord. That means a character that is uninterested or sees no chance of winning won't simply leave and characters wouldn't simply become friends with each other. This doesn't prevent a character being made to give up, because the other character manipulates them via things like, for example, mind control, fear inducement, psychological tricks or superhuman charisma.
Each character will view their opponents as enemies, who they have to assume wish to cause them severe harm such that losing could have any range of dire consequences. The characters will assume their opponents have not been forced into battle. They are assumed to have decided from free will to fight and are not excused by a just cause, difficult times or otherwise exonerating circumstances. Furthermore, the situation is assumed one where the opponents are not protected by social norms or consequences, such as being a civilian protected by law."

This implies that, A, Giratina see's the opponent as a threat that can inflict harm to it, and B, if Giratina tries to hide in the Distortion World from Sora for over a week (Even though we can infer that the character in question wouldn't likely remove themself from the battlefield as they made explicitly obvious note's to prevent character mindset's that would lend themselves to this.), that can count as self BFR and grant Sora a victory.

Giratina will attempt to win the battle, and in character, it is often seen trying to attack with it's raw force against individual's that challenge it: Every time it is met as a Catchable Legend for example, minus the DW battle in Platinum, it can easily escape into the Distortion World, but instead chooses to Violently lash out at it's foe. The likelihood it attempts to simply out wait Sora is extremely low, and a easy argument for this going against the entire premise of having the character's duking out can be made should it be decided that it would choose this path for some reason.

In fact, the only time I can recall it BFRing someone is against Cyrus, in a extremely specific situation where trying to battle him would likely take too long as Dialga and Palkia were going to be used to rewrite the Verse. There may be some other instance I'm not thinking of, but the point is, it is extremely likely Giratina begins by simply trying to attack Sora with it's Ghost Type Attack's, or other Attack's it is known to use in encounter's against it.

Edit: I am not trying to say that Giratina is inherently a Violent and/or Bad individual by this, if that is something you wonder. I am simply saying that when pushed into a corner, it's first choice tends to be to assault the foe before it rather than to slink away or start abusing it's Hax, barring extraordinary circumstances.

 

[Bobsican]

On that note IDK why Giratina resists Ice Manip when it's a Dragon type, it should be weak to that if anything (the Weakness section even says as much), which is relevant here as Ice Manip is one of the main things in Sora's toolkit.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

It's noted to both have Ice Resistance and be weak to Ice. Uh... That makes sense. I'm, sure there's some degree of reasoning but, this is a case of a page likely needing a little more explanation for why...

 

[ThanatosX]

So basically every single game sold is canonically it's own world, which leads to their being tens/hundreds of millions of worlds, except each of these worlds contains their own collection of an infinite number of parallel universes/timelines.

This is the infinite space and infinite time of the Pokémon world, and outside all this is the Distortion World, it's equal and opposite. With Girtaina's true form being this Distortion World.

From what I know, all of this is still baseline 2-A because you can't be a "bigger infinite" than 2-A without entering the Tier 1 stuff, unless the verse itself treats it as above baseline in some way.

 

[Everything12]

Actually...

- SBA

That only says that the are willing to harm the enemy, nothing about doing things to people other than the opponent or how they attempt to defeat their opponent.

Leaving aside that per this Sora would try to stay around at any cost, I don't think waiting out would be in-character for Giratina given the conditions placed by SBA, especially as going by the lore.

In Legends: Arceus Girtaina distorted space and time, which threatened to destroy it, in order to attmept to reach Arceus to settle it's grudge from being sealed. It's more benolevent side is actually a recent thing that came about from it's defeat during that incident.

... If somehow the argument is that Giratina Seal's Sora and/or just wait's out for a gazillion years, I heavily doubt that will work seeing that Sora can Unseal any lock/negate sealing, and that under SBA...

Nah, it just lurks in the Distoriton Wolrd and wait for Sora to die. Waiting and watching from the Distortion World is not unsual for it to say the least, and Girtaina is so old (as old as time) that Sora's lifespan will be nothing to it.

"Victory Conditions: Death of the opponent, removing the opponent from the battlefield for at least one week (BFR), knocking the opponent out for at least one hour, or incapacitating the opponent by putting him in a state in which he can not harm the other fighter(s) for over a day, are to be assumed as victory conditions.

State of mind: In character, but will attempt to win the battle. Characters will not give up of their own accord. That means a character that is uninterested or sees no chance of winning won't simply leave and characters wouldn't simply become friends with each other. This doesn't prevent a character being made to give up, because the other character manipulates them via things like, for example, mind control, fear inducement, psychological tricks or superhuman charisma.
Each character will view their opponents as enemies, who they have to assume wish to cause them severe harm such that losing could have any range of dire consequences. The characters will assume their opponents have not been forced into battle. They are assumed to have decided from free will to fight and are not excused by a just cause, difficult times or otherwise exonerating circumstances. Furthermore, the situation is assumed one where the opponents are not protected by social norms or consequences, such as being a civilian protected by law."

This implies that, A, Giratina see's the opponent as a threat that can inflict harm to it, and B, if Giratina tries to hide in the Distortion World from Sora for over a week (Even though we can infer that the character in question wouldn't likely remove themself from the battlefield as they made explicitly obvious note's to prevent character mindset's that would lend themselves to this.), that can count as self BFR and grant Sora a victory.

Self-BFR isn't a thing, unless the BFR is something that prevents any contact with the opponent. Waiting for the opponent to die a mortal die is a perfectly valid victory condition.

Giratina will attempt to win the battle, and in character, it is often seen trying to attack with it's raw force against individual's that challenge it: Every time it is met as a Catchable Legend for example, minus the DW battle in Platinum, it can easily escape into the Distortion World, but instead chooses to Violently lash out at it's foe. The likelihood it attempts to simply out wait Sora is extremely low, and a easy argument for this going against the entire premise of having the character's duking out can be made should it be decided that it would choose this path for some reason.

In fact, the only time I can recall it BFRing someone is against Cyrus, in a extremely specific situation where trying to battle him would likely take too long as Dialga and Palkia were going to be used to rewrite the Verse. There may be some other instance I'm not thinking of, but the point is, it is extremely likely Giratina begins by simply trying to attack Sora with it's Ghost Type Attack's, or other Attack's it is known to use in encounter's against it.

Edit: I am not trying to say that Giratina is inherently a Violent and/or Bad individual by this, if that is something you wonder. I am simply saying that when pushed into a corner, it's first choice tends to be to assault the foe before it rather than to slink away or start abusing it's Hax, barring extraordinary circumstances.

Girtaina attempts to attack those who threaten it's realm, but waiting in the Distortion World for the right moment to act is in indeed something it does. As it waited quite the time to enact it's revenge against Arceus.

From what I know, all of this is still baseline 2-A because you can't be a "bigger infinite" than 2-A without entering the Tier 1 stuff, unless the verse itself treats it as above baseline in some way.

You can't have higher than standard 2-A with a multiverse that contains an infinite × 2 or whatever number of parallel universe. But in certain conditions it can be higher. Such as multiple seperate 2-A sized cosmological constructs.

 

[theultimate5105]

From what I know, all of this is still baseline 2-A because you can't be a "bigger infinite" than 2-A without entering the Tier 1 stuff, unless the verse itself treats it as above baseline in some way.

The verse itself treats the Distortion world as inaccessible to 2-A range

 

[Bobsican]

There's another 2-A structure in KH that's harder to access than the main 2-A realm of sorts, which Sora and few others can access, in any case that was planned for a future CRT, would it be of note here?

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Nah, it just lurks in the Distoriton Wolrd and wait for Sora to die. Waiting and watching from the Distortion World is not unsual for it to say the least, and Girtaina is so old (as old as time) that Sora's lifespan will be nothing to it.

Theoretically Sora could simply use the Power of Waking to reach Giratina. The power is stated as a ability which let's one travel through hearts to reach other worlds, and if need be, Sora can inversely use this the other way- Traveling through worlds to reach a Heart. A heart in this case being equivalent to a soul. Though, this is slightly conjecture/theorization, so you may take this with a grain of salt.

Regardless, assuming that Sora is in a mindframe where he believes that losing WILL equal egregious consequence, he could turn himself into a Nobody, which would halt the Aging process entirely. At that point, Giratina's wincon is fully moot. And yes, Sora is willing to sacrifice his Heart for things he care's for, such as in KH1 when he willingly turned himself into a Heartless for Kairi's sake. This is not something out of character, so if he needs to, he will use this to his advantage.

Self-BFR isn't a thing, unless the BFR is something that prevents any contact with the opponent. Waiting for the opponent to die a mortal die is a perfectly valid victory condition.

BFR is defined as "Battlefield Removal". I don't see why removing yourself from said Battlefield should not qualify. And honestly, if this is the case and it's allowed for someone to simply run away from a fight and wait for their foe to die, that invalidate's the whole point of it being a battle. And you may say, "Well why don't you try to get that changed instead of complaining about it?", and well, maybe I will. But I just want to point out the blatant ruining of the premise of a battle. Sealing the foe? Sure, makes sense. Removing them from the area so they can't do anything to you? Fine, that works. Hiding and waiting for them to become a senile elder? surely there is a line to draw, that's not a battle, that's a comparison of lifespan's, something that should rarely be important to a battle.

Girtaina attempts to attack those who threaten it's realm, but waiting in the Distortion World for the right moment to act is in indeed something it does. As it waited quite the time to enact it's revenge against Arceus.

In Diamond and Pearl, as well as in Post Game Platinum, when it is fought, nothing indicates the Distortion World is in danger. Likewise, any of the numerous other times it's fought in Misc. Area's (In games like USUM and ORAS), there is nothing saying that it's foe's would endanger the Distortion World. But instead of fleeing to it, Giratina defaults to entering battle with it's foe. There are more examples of Giratina attacking without the Distortion World being in jeopardy than there are otherwise from what I can see.

 

[Bobsican]

I'd also note that even if Giratina being benevolent is a recent thing, that'd be its current character for our purposes either way, as much as we generally take the latest abilities and so on of a character, their mindset would also be included to avoid compositing.

 

[ThanatosX]

You can't have higher than standard 2-A with a multiverse that contains an infinite × 2 or whatever number of parallel universe. But in certain conditions it can be higher. Such as multiple seperate 2-A sized cosmological constructs.

From what I know, that would still be baseline, since even having two or more separate infinite structure would just be infinite+infinite, which would be still infinite. Unless the verse treats the feat as bigger, it would still be baseline. Which is why basically everyone is baseline in the 2-A Tier.

The verse itself treats the Distortion world as inaccessible to 2-A range

I remember that, but Kingdom Hearts have an almost identical realm called the Realm of Darkness, which is the opposite of the Realm of Light, which works in a similiar way to the Distortion world. So that is also a factor.

 

[Everything12]

Theoretically Sora could simply use the Power of Waking to reach Giratina. The power is stated as a ability which let's one travel through hearts to reach other worlds, and if need be, Sora can inversely use this the other way- Traveling through worlds to reach a Heart. A heart in this case being equivalent to a soul. Though, this is slightly conjecture/theorization, so you may take this with a grain of salt.

Girtaina doesn't have a soul, and Giratina is the only thing in the Distortion World.

BFR is defined as "Battlefield Removal". I don't see why removing yourself from said Battlefield should not qualify. And honestly, if this is the case and it's allowed for someone to simply run away from a fight and wait for their foe to die, that invalidate's the whole point of it being a battle. And you may say, "Well why don't you try to get that changed instead of complaining about it?", and well, maybe I will. But I just want to point out the blatant ruining of the premise of a battle. Sealing the foe? Sure, makes sense. Removing them from the area so they can't do anything to you? Fine, that works. Hiding and waiting for them to become a senile elder? surely there is a line to draw, that's not a battle, that's a comparison of lifespan's, something that should rarely be important to a battle.

BFR is being removed from the battlefield, aka being outside the fight. If you can still capable of reaching the fight then you aren't removed from it.

 

[Bobsican]

"Soul" in this context is a figurative, a more appropiate term would be a concept within our definition of concept manip.

 

[theultimate5105]

"Soul" in this context is a figurative, a more appropiate term would be a concept within our definition of concept manip.

Giratina and the distortion world lack spirit which is a concept so it should lack heart as well as they sound like they are similar

 

[Bobsican]

Sora has NPI to hit nonexistents that lack a concept.

 

[theultimate5105]

Sora has NPI to hit nonexistents that lack a concept.

Yes which does not really matter as your argument for him reaching the distortion world requires something Giratina lacks

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Girtaina doesn't have a soul, and Giratina is the only thing in the Distortion World.


BFR is being removed from the battlefield, aka being outside the fight. If you can still capable of reaching the fight then you aren't removed from it.

I acknowledge that my Power of Waking Argument, while technically likely applicable as Bob has explained it better than myself, isn't 100% likely to work.

That being said, I don't see any claim against Sora turning himself into a Nobody. So with that said, what can Giratina even do in that case? Not to mention that, as I have stated earlier, Giratina is shown more often fighting without the Distortion World being at stake, and fighting in person. Can you prove this to be something Giratina is not likely to do?

Also keep in mind that Sora's range is Interdimensional with Keyhole's- That is to say, he can access alternate Multiverses such as the Realm of Darkness which does share some similar properties as the Distortion World.

Heck, if we're gonna get technical, Sora can just use the Power of Waking to go back to a time that a Portal to the Distortion World was open, go through and then Fight Giratina, or even go back to battle Giratina in one of the afforementioned scenario's where it's already fighting someone else. I still don't see a example of Giratina in character immediately ditching a fight to chill in the Distortion World, and only see circumstances where it continue's to battle too, so I would like to see some better proof behind why exactly Giratina would employ such a tactic.

 

[Everything12]

Let me correct myself, it doesn't lack the soul. It lacks the very concept of a soul.

 

[theultimate5105]

I acknowledge that my Power of Waking Argument, while technically likely applicable as Bob has explained it better than myself, isn't 100% likely to work.

That being said, I don't see any claim against Sora turning himself into a Nobody. So with that said, what can Giratina even do in that case? Not to mention that, as I have stated earlier, Giratina is shown more often fighting without the Distortion World being at stake, and fighting in person. Can you prove this to be something Giratina is not likely to do?

Also keep in mind that Sora's range is Interdimensional with Keyhole's- That is to say, he can access alternate Multiverses such as the Realm of Darkness which does share some similar properties as the Distortion World.

Heck, if we're gonna get technical, Sora can just use the Power of Waking to go back to a time that a Portal to the Distortion World was open, go through and then Fight Giratina, or even go back to battle Giratina in one of the afforementioned scenario's where it's already fighting someone else. I still don't see a example of Giratina in character immediately ditching a fight to chill in the Distortion World, and only see circumstances where it continue's to battle too, so I would like to see some better proof behind why exactly Giratina would employ such a tactic.

Going into a portal to the distortion world is a bad idea, it lacks the concept of time (so no time travel) and once he enters through the portal will be closed trapping him the distortion world which has immortality type 8 based on the normal world making him BFR himself while Giratina comes back
Also alternate multiverses are like save files which are not comparable to reaching the distortion world.

 

[ThanatosX]

If the wincon that is being argued at the moment is that Giratina would go to the Distortion World and wait for Sora to die, that wouldn't be a good way to win. First of all, I don't even think that's a viable wincon considering that it would remove himself from the battle for more than 24 hours, so the win would technically go to Sora. It should be discussed separately if this would count as a wincon.
Second, if he goes he risk to being sealed in there since that's Sora's thing.
And third, a similiar dimension to the Distortion World actually exists in the KH verse, so it could be even argued that Sora would be able to reach him even there.
Anyways, I have to go to bed, so I will let other discuss this match. Good night!

 

[Bobsican]

Yes which does not really matter as your argument for him reaching the distortion world requires something Giratina lacks

Abstract Existence (Type 1: It's the concept of Matter and Antimatter)

Uh...

Going into a portal to the distortion world is a bad idea, it lacks the concept of time (so no time travel) and once he enters through the portal will be closed trapping him the distortion world which has immortality type 8 based on the normal world making him BFR himself
Also alternate multiverses are like save files which are not comparable to reaching the distortion world.

Again, sealing negation negates that.

And Sora has displayed the capability to travel across multiple 2-A structures as said before.

I'll also reiterate that the point on Giratina just stalling out not being in character hasn't been addressed so far either.

 

[theultimate5105]

Uh...

Again the distortion world is beyond baseline 2-A distance from the multiverse

Again, sealing negation negates that.

No it doesn’t as that is based on range

And Sora has displayed the capability to travel across multiple 2-A structures as said before.

Which are not treated as Inaccesible to 2-A range and normal 2-As in Pokemon can travel between millions of 2-A structures but still not reach the distortion world

 

[Bobsican]

It's not based in range as it denies the inability to create a portal.
I also don't see what can Giratina do to passive fate manip.

 

[theultimate5105]

It's not based in range as it denies the inability to create a portal.
I also don't see what can Giratina do to passive fate manip.

The portal does nothing as he has nowhere near the range to reach out of it
Acasuality type 4, outranges

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Maybe it's time to bring up Sora's Passive Fate Manip that prevents Permanent Incap/Death, which this specific situation would entail?

 

[Bobsican]

Type 4 acausality renders that irrelevant @TheKingStrategist13

That said...

I'll also reiterate that the point on Giratina just stalling out not being in character hasn't been addressed so far either.

If this is conceded then there's no point to argue something Giratina doesn't even do in character as said before.

 

[ThanatosX]

I agree, that is definitely out of character to do, and he wont start with at the very least.
So, now that that's out of the way, which are the wincons from both?

 

[Bobsican]

Giratina can't really break past Sora's High-Godly type 8 immortality, and Sora has already exploited elemental weaknesses before (and I'm sure Sora can find out as he can see Giratina's health with his Scan ability), so either Giratina BFR + seals with massively above baseline 2-A range or Sora just conceptually deletes (at the very least for a wincon-applicable time, I'm sure that when Giratina is defeated in multiple games it goes away for at least a day).

I may also remind that Sora is surprisingly skilled as said in the other thread, and it's not like Giratina can just spawn the portal immediately on him especially per speed equalization, so I'd dare to claim that he can move around it especially with his several mobility options.

This is looking way more fair than expected...

 

[ThanatosX]

Sealing Negation should help with the Sealing part, but BFR would work against Sora. Althought, wouldn't that be a really bad move for Giratina? Because he would BFR him to the Distortion World, which is himself, meaning that without the Sealing part he would just bring him to his home where Sora can attack and destroy his True Form.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

This is a valid point. Sora would end up being able to traverse the realm and attack The Giratina that's residing in there.