Sonic the Hedgehog (SataM) Upgrade

[Idazmi]

I have a couple of qualms to state.

The lasers being actual lasers is somewhat doubtful. While they share some characteristics, there is also an instance where one of them bounces off a rock and slightly cracks it. There are a couple of other instances too that make them awkward to use. I wouldn't suggest using them for speed scaling.

1. They are explicitly called lasers
2. They bounce off of mirrors and other reflective surfaces
3. They consistently burn and melt things on impact.

The scene you refer to is only in the pilot episode, and pilots are often very different than the final product: this cartoon is actually a good example of the pilot being substantially different from the series proper.

"There are only two keys: Base and With the Power Stones - even though Sonic is shown to have three tiers of power in the series: his base abilities, his power enhanced the Power Rings, and farther enhanced by the Deep Power Stones."

It's like that because giving a key to the Power Rings isn't really needed. They are literally just temporary stat amps for Sonic and that's it. They can provide other uses at times too, but it's not really enough to warrant its own key. You don't see Goku getting his own key for Kaioken, now do you?

Kaioken is not a temporary boost to Super Saiyan level.

The Power Rings don't just amp Sonic's existing stats by a bit and change his color - they give him new abilities outright, in addition to visibly increasing his power to a completely different magnitude than before, at times going so far as turning him from a merely speedy foe into an outright weapon of mass destruction. I already posted the feat where a Power Ring amped Sonic managed to actually damage a Doomsday Pod with a tornado when that same pod was completely undamaged by multiple shots from laser cannon artillery and tons of falling rocks (the Doomsday pod is a weapon of mass destruction) and the feat where a single power ring melts an entire armored factory to a runny liquid.

"The Power Stone key is also off. I have no idea why he's listed as Small Building level in this key, considering that his sole feat in that form was completely destroying a city-sized facility in only moments without the slightest shred of fatigue."

This isn't really giving the full context. They do this by going around the facility and gradually destroying it to accumulate the damage they do. This is more of a testament to their speed letting them do this in a quick timeframe; it's not really an applicable City level feat.

Yes it is. Robotnik's facilities aren't made of wood, concrete and rebar: they are entirely comprised of armored metallic alloys that are easily confirmed to be tougher than typical urban constructions by quite a bit. It's as if the entire place was made as a hardened military fortress. Sonic cannot casually destroy such structures despite being well able to destroy more typical buildings with ease. The fact that they rendered the entire complex down to a loose pile of metallic scraps in less than a minute is definitely a City Level feat.

"The key also neglected Power Bestowal, as Sonic temporarily gifted Sally identical speed and powers during that entire feat."

Uh, that's why it has Statistics Amplification. That's what it falls more in line as.

Sally - who has no powers at all - being granted both supersonic speed and an energy shield is not Statistic Amplification by any logic.

"Toon Force - this is highly questionable: SatAM Sonic never showed any Toon Force outside of grabbing the iris-out in exactly one episode (an event that, given the general tone of the series, was pretty jarring)."

There have been more instances than just that. Sonic has shown to halt himself in mid-air, generate fire when running on air, and there are a couple more instances of it. SatAM is darker than most depictions of Sonic, but it still has gag humor here and there. That's not really a good reason to remove the ability.

Generating trails of fire isn't necessarily Toon Force: that's an expected effect of being able to run so fast, and even air alone can be heated to generate such effects by an object moving fast enough. Antoine's occasional antics aside, I don't really remember any Toon Force being used except in the pilot, which is much, much cartoonier than the rest of the series.

"Power Nullification - This is simply invalid: the Power Rings are shown to overload electronics and forcefields, they don't just nullify them. They also cause metal to melt into slag when they are jammed inside a gearbox."

There is a literal scene where Sonic uses one to amplify his capabilities opening a hole in the forcefield. They flat out said they couldn't do anything otherwise, so it's very clearly intended the Power Ring allows them to negate it. There is literally nothing about overloading in this scene. The Power Rings nulling stuff isn't out of the blue either because they constantly revert the effects of abilities like the Mind Manipulation effect from Roboticization.

Yes, I showed the scene where he burrowed a hole in a forcefield: that's still not Power Nullification. Reversion of Mind Control is also not Power Nullification.

"Mind Manipulation and Memory Manipulation with Power Rings (Can use them fight off the mind-control effects of Roboticization, such as restoring Uncle Chuck's mind to its original state. Also restored Sonic's memories after he was hit with an amnesia-inducing laser)"

This needs to be listed as reverting the effects rather than giving him the full ability. Also, you need to add the Memory Manipulation back in as even the latter part shows it. I'm not sure why you got rid of it in the first place.

I didn't remove Memory Manipulation.

"Attack Potency: Building level (using his Super Sonic Spin, he has casually tunneled through tens of meters of solid rock on multiple occasions. The reason he can't casually destroy Robotnik's buildings is because they are all entirely comprised of armored metal alloys instead of typical construction materials.)"

Preferably, this first portion you mentioned should be calculated. Upgrading them to Building level off of that alone needs more support. Also, the latter part isn't something that needs to be noted in the AP. That would be put as a note on the profile at best.

I know: I'm waiting for a calculation of that feat. As for Robotnik's buildings, I think it does need to be noted in the AP that these buildings are not just regular buildings, otherwise you end up with someone asking an obvious question: "Why can't Sonic just destroy Robotnik's buildings?" Then you end up unnecessarily arguing whether the feat is an outlier or not.

Yeah, no. We apply abilities based on whether someone has them or not; we don't do it based on if they can use them in combat. That fundamentally goes against how abilities are listed on the site. I'm pretty sure I don't have to explain on why making an entire episode an outlier literally makes no sense.

Apparently, I have to explain why - in this case - it does makes sense. Instead of breaking down the entire episode, lets take a look at an explicit retcon.



^ This is the pilot episode in question (never aired, yet listed as episode 13 of the first season). At 20:07, a Buzz Bomber - essentially a robotic wasp - fires a "Hedgehog missile" at Sonic from a mount on it's back. The missile has a hedgehog nose, and quills, and an airplane's propeller. Sonic rides the missile, and then whistles at it and taunts it. The missile then demonstrates sentience by turning it's "head" (bending it's fuselage like a bendy straw in the process) to see Sonic riding on it's back. Sonic jumps off of it, landing on a bunch of Buzz Bombers which are awkwardly carrying Robotnik's tree-killing chemicals between them on suspension wires. The missile proceeds to hit them instead of Sonic. The rest of the Buzz Bomber squadron are subsequently defeated by water balloons.



^ This is the actual first episode of the first season. At 12:41, Stealth Bot - a flying wing styled combat drone with no cartoonish elements at all - fires a "Hedgehog missile" at Sonic from a dedicated launch tube. The missile is a grey torpedo with a large warhead, rather resembling an Honest John missile with exaggerated proportions. It demonstrates no sentience, nor any exaggerated, cartoonish movements as it chases Sonic. As before, Sonic hits the Stealth Bot with it's own missile, but with no cartoony tactics: no whistling, no taunting the missile, the missile doesn't screech to a halt in midair or turn it's nonexistent "head" to look around.

Both missiles are explicitly called "hedgehog missile" in those scenes. As an aside, I find it hard to believe that any of the robots shown in that second episode could be defeated by a mere water balloon.

The pilot episode not only has a different tone and art style: thanks to the two-part time travel episode, it arguably exists in an entirely different continuity to the rest of the series. If you want, I can break that down too, but in my opinion I'd just be wasting time by examining the obvious.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

1. They are explicitly called lasers
2. They bounce off of mirrors and other reflective surfaces
3. They consistently burn and melt things on impact.

The scene you refer to is only in the pilot episode, and pilots are often very different than the final product: this cartoon is actually a good example of the pilot being substantially different from the series proper.

They also have other things that work against them being lasers. Robot Sally's laser blows open a wall in a way a normal laser doesn't work, sometimes they curve unnaturally, they cause explosions, etc. Things typically only get considered as lasers if they share those characteristics and don't have much contradicting them. The lasers in SatAM have a lot that completely goes against how they're supposed to work.

The scene from the pilot episode honestly isn't all that different from how they're treated later on. It's completely valid to bring up, and it's something that the creators consider part of the canon series, or else why even air it? It's actually a part of the official season line-up, unlike most pilots.

Kaioken is not a temporary boost to Super Saiyan level.

The Power Rings don't just amp Sonic's existing stats by a bit and change his color - they give him new abilities outright, in addition to visibly increasing his power to a completely different magnitude than before, at times going so far as turning him from a merely speedy foe into an outright weapon of mass destruction. I already posted the feat where a Power Ring amped Sonic managed to actually damage a Doomsday Pod with a tornado when that same pod was completely undamaged by multiple shots from laser cannon artillery and tons of falling rocks (the Doomsday pod is a weapon of mass destruction) and the feat where a single power ring melts an entire armored factory to a runny liquid.

That has literally nothing to do with what I've said, and it shows you have no actual refute to what I've said.

Okay, I never said they only did that. I acknowledged that they give some abilities, but it doesn't change the fact they serve as temporary amps. None of what you really listed is relevant to what I've said at all. There's nothing to warrant a different key; he'd just be higher with the Power Rings and that's it.

Yes it is. Robotnik's facilities aren't made of wood, concrete and rebar: they are entirely comprised of armored metallic alloys that are easily confirmed to be tougher than typical urban constructions by quite a bit. It's as if the entire place was made as a hardened military fortress. Sonic cannot casually destroy such structures despite being well able to destroy more typical buildings with ease. The fact that they rendered the entire complex down to a loose pile of metallic scraps in less than a minute is definitely a City Level feat.

Hardened military fortresses aren't 7-B. Anyway, I never said he would casually do so. It's very clear that the Power Stones give him and Sally an amp, but it's an unquantifiable amp for all intents and purposes. Okay, again, this would just make it an impressive speed feat. They're not destroying the facility in one bust. The way they're doing this is going around super fast, wrecking the building from the inside, and potentially overloading it as well. You've not actually given any sort of reason for why this wouldn't be the case.

Sally - who has no powers at all - being granted both supersonic speed and an energy shield is not Statistic Amplification by any logic.

The energy shield is something the Power Stones generate for them. That's not Power Bestowal at all; it's a side effect that the Power Stones give them. The latter thing you described is literally what Statistics Amplification is.

"Statistics Amplification is when a character raises their parameters in the middle of a fight, and this is not related to their base form or some sort of "hidden power" that has been hidden or held back.

These boosts are usually temporary and are specific to one or a number of statistics."

Speed is a statistic, and it's being boosted by the Power Stones. Must be some crazy logic then, huh.

Generating trails of fire isn't necessarily Toon Force: that's an expected effect of being able to run so fast, and even air alone can be heated to generate such effects by an object moving fast enough. Antoine's occasional antics aside, I don't really remember any Toon Force being used except in the pilot, which is much, much cartoonier than the rest of the series.

Okay, so never did I say generating a trail of fire was automatically Toon Force, at all. What I said was Toon Force was the fact Sonic was running in the air, and he managed to generate a trail of fire behind him still while running in the air. That's very blatantly Toon Force. You literally gave an example earlier where Sonic even shows Toon Force antics. Is it something that fully fits in the atmosphere? Probably not (even though this is a cartoon series starring anthropomorphic animals and is made by the same dudes who made AoStH), but that's not a proper refute to possessing the ability.

Yes, I showed the scene where he burrowed a hole in a forcefield: that's still not Power Nullification. Reversion of Mind Control is also not Power Nullification.

Alright, you need to give an actual explanation then. In that scene, it's clearly not him overloading the forcefield, so your previous argument doesn't work. You cannot just say "that's wrong" and expect that to be it; that's not a refutation and is the equivalent of saying "No! I don't like that!"

"Power Nullification, or Negation, is the ability to simply nullify the powers and abilities of others, negating their effects."

How is negating the effects of the ability somehow not Power Nullification?

I didn't remove Memory Manipulation.

You quite literally did. It was not in your draft for revising the abilities.

I know: I'm waiting for a calculation of that feat. As for Robotnik's buildings, I think it does need to be noted in the AP that these buildings are not just regular buildings, otherwise you end up with someone asking an obvious question: "Why can't Sonic just destroy Robotnik's buildings?" Then you end up unnecessarily arguing whether the feat is an outlier or not.

It's really unneeded. You can just chalk it up to PIS, or you can give an explanation in a thread. You don't see similar explanations for characters like Kirby or Mario about why they don't just destroy things in their way in-game.

Apparently, I have to explain why - in this case - it does makes sense. Instead of breaking down the entire episode, lets take a look at an explicit retcon.



^ This is the pilot episode in question (never aired, yet listed as episode 13 of the first season). At 20:07, a Buzz Bomber - essentially a robotic wasp - fires a "Hedgehog missile" at Sonic from a mount on it's back. The missile has a hedgehog nose, and quills, and an airplane's propeller. Sonic rides the missile, and then whistles at it and taunts it. The missile then demonstrates sentience by turning it's "head" (bending it's fuselage like a bendy straw in the process) to see Sonic riding on it's back. Sonic jumps off of it, landing on a bunch of Buzz Bombers which are awkwardly carrying Robotnik's tree-killing chemicals between them on suspension wires. The missile proceeds to hit them instead of Sonic. The rest of the Buzz Bomber squadron are subsequently defeated by water balloons.



^ This is the actual first episode of the first season. At 12:41, Stealth Bot - a flying wing styled combat drone with no cartoonish elements at all - fires a "Hedgehog missile" at Sonic from a dedicated launch tube. The missile is a grey torpedo with a large warhead, rather resembling an Honest John missile with exaggerated proportions. It demonstrates no sentience, nor any exaggerated, cartoonish movements as it chases Sonic. As before, Sonic hits the Stealth Bot with it's own missile, but with no cartoony tactics: no whistling, no taunting the missile, the missile doesn't screech to a halt in midair or turn it's nonexistent "head" to look around.

Both missiles are explicitly called "hedgehog missile" in those scenes. As an aside, I find it hard to believe that any of the robots shown in that second episode could be defeated by a mere water balloon.

The pilot episode not only has a different tone and art style: thanks to the two-part time travel episode, it arguably exists in an entirely different continuity to the rest of the series. If you want, I can break that down too, but in my opinion I'd just be wasting time by examining the obvious.

You're right, that's something you absolutely have to explain here because that logic alone isn't sufficient in denying an ability.

You yourself already demonstrated what's wrong with your argument. The missiles being compared here are from different robots; the only thing they have in common is a name. Even then, the name they have in common is just the fact it's their purpose. I honestly might have agreed with you if this was like lost media that was uncovered or something, but it's material that was actually aired. Whether or not it's fully like the preceding or succeeding episodes, it'd still be part of the line-up through intention.

Also, you may want to check your sources man. The pilot episode did indeed air live (check the citations for it). You preferably should explain why it's non-canon because the art style shift isn't much of a reason, nor is the tone. That'd be like saying The Ember Island Players is a non-canon episode for Avatar because it's a more joke-oriented and lighthearted episode that's shoved between an episode about a girl wanting to kill her mom's murderer and facing an abusive, genocidal monarch who wants to kill everyone.

 

[Idazmi]

They also have other things that work against them being lasers. Robot Sally's laser blows open a wall in a way a normal laser doesn't work, sometimes they curve unnaturally, they cause explosions, etc. Things typically only get considered as lasers if they share those characteristics and don't have much contradicting them. The lasers in SatAM have a lot that completely goes against how they're supposed to work.

Any sufficiently powerful laser would superheat a surface to the point where it would explode, and those lasers aren't flying in a curved trajectory - they are moving in straight lines. The "curve" you're looking at is only present once the beam has already passed, and is easily explained by the air being hot (and thus wavering) where the beam just went through.

The scene from the pilot episode honestly isn't all that different from how they're treated later on. It's completely valid to bring up, and it's something that the creators consider part of the canon series, or else why even air it? It's actually a part of the official season line-up, unlike most pilots.

We never see lasers reflect off of non-reflective rocks again, nor do we see anybody suffering from cartoonish burns as a result of being hit by them ever again.

That has literally nothing to do with what I've said, and it shows you have no actual refute to what I've said.

Okay, I never said they only did that. I acknowledged that they give some abilities, but it doesn't change the fact they serve as temporary amps. None of what you really listed is relevant to what I've said at all. There's nothing to warrant a different key; he'd just be higher with the Power Rings and that's it.

Higher to a point that is blatantly incomparable to his base statistics. That deserves it's own key, not a mere "higher with power rings" text.

Hardened military fortresses aren't 7-B. Anyway, I never said he would casually do so. It's very clear that the Power Stones give him and Sally an amp, but it's an unquantifiable amp for all intents and purposes. Okay, again, this would just make it an impressive speed feat. They're not destroying the facility in one bust. The way they're doing this is going around super fast, wrecking the building from the inside, and potentially overloading it as well. You've not actually given any sort of reason for why this wouldn't be the case.

This is not the same as destroying a city made of wood, concrete, and steel beams. We're talking about a city made entirely out of armor and including a vast underground complex, full of Doomsday Pods, being destroyed to scrap in less than a minute. Not a single fortress, not a city made out of ordinary materials.

The energy shield is something the Power Stones generate for them. That's not Power Bestowal at all; it's a side effect that the Power Stones give them. The latter thing you described is literally what Statistics Amplification is.

"Statistics Amplification is when a character raises their parameters in the middle of a fight, and this is not related to their base form or some sort of "hidden power" that has been hidden or held back.

These boosts are usually temporary and are specific to one or a number of statistics."

Speed is a statistic, and it's being boosted by the Power Stones. Must be some crazy logic then, huh.

Even though Sally's other statistics (hearing, smell, eyesight) aren't shown to be amplified in any way. Neither are Sonic's. So, everything that grants Super Speed on the wiki should be redefined as Statistics Amplification.

Okay, so never did I say generating a trail of fire was automatically Toon Force, at all. What I said was Toon Force was the fact Sonic was running in the air, and he managed to generate a trail of fire behind him still while running in the air. That's very blatantly Toon Force. You literally gave an example earlier where Sonic even shows Toon Force antics. Is it something that fully fits in the atmosphere? Probably not (even though this is a cartoon series starring anthropomorphic animals and is made by the same dudes who made AoStH), but that's not a proper refute to possessing the ability.

Yes, I showed the pilot episode of the series, which is never repeated. Also, the dudes that made AoSTH were an entirely different team working with a different director, animators, lead artist, and animation studio. It stopped fitting the atmosphere after they redefined the entire presentation of the show, as I showed in that episode comparison before.

Alright, you need to give an actual explanation then. In that scene, it's clearly not him overloading the forcefield, so your previous argument doesn't work. You cannot just say "that's wrong" and expect that to be it; that's not a refutation and is the equivalent of saying "No! I don't like that!"

He visibly burrows a hole through the forcefield, which still exists after he's passed through it. As in, smashed straight through it, leaving a visible cavity. I don't understand how you're getting Power Nullification from that feat.

"Power Nullification, or Negation, is the ability to simply nullify the powers and abilities of others, negating their effects."

How is negating the effects of the ability somehow not Power Nullification?

Because the individual isn't de-roboticized: they merely regain control of their mind.

You quite literally did. It was not in your draft for revising the abilities.

Try reading it. It's right there in post #7. "Mind Manipulation and Memory Manipulation with Power Rings".

It's really unneeded. You can just chalk it up to PIS, or you can give an explanation in a thread. You don't see similar explanations for characters like Kirby or Mario about why they don't just destroy things in their way in-game.

In case you hadn't noticed, this is a cartoon, not a videogame. Even though it is (quite loosely) based on a videogame, it doesn't adhere to videogame logic. The Power Rings are proof of that - they work totally differently in the games.

You're right, that's something you absolutely have to explain here because that logic alone isn't sufficient in denying an ability.

It's reason enough to consider it an outlier.

You yourself already demonstrated what's wrong with your argument. The missiles being compared here are from different robots; the only thing they have in common is a name. Even then, the name they have in common is just the fact it's their purpose. I honestly might have agreed with you if this was like lost media that was uncovered or something, but it's material that was actually aired. Whether or not it's fully like the preceding or succeeding episodes, it'd still be part of the line-up through intention.

Buzz Bombers never appear ever again. The missiles having the same name and purpose is what's known as a retcon: they are the same missile, pre-retcon, and post retcon.

Also, you may want to check your sources man. The pilot episode did indeed air live (check the citations for it). You preferably should explain why it's non-canon because the art style shift isn't much of a reason, nor is the tone. That'd be like saying The Ember Island Players is a non-canon episode for Avatar because it's a more joke-oriented and lighthearted episode that's shoved between an episode about a girl wanting to kill her mom's murderer and facing an abusive, genocidal monarch who wants to kill everyone.

This is more like taking the play from The Ember Island Players as the canonical version of the events of the show, even though it's a literal play that portrays Aang as a woman, Toph as a man, and it ends with the Fire Lord killing Aang.

And even more unlike The Ember Island Players, I don't see any indication that Heads or Tails even existed in the entire rest of the series. The Buzz Bombers, the water balloon catapults, Nicole being a desktop computer, even Sonic's pet Muttsky - all of these aren't mentioned or seen ever again. Blast To The Past outright contradicts the pilot by showing that Muttsky never even existed, and that Robotropolis always looked the way it did after the pilot.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Any sufficiently powerful laser would superheat a surface to the point where it would explode, and those lasers aren't flying in a curved trajectory - they are moving in straight lines. The "curve" you're looking at is only present once the beam has already passed, and is easily explained by the air being hot (and thus wavering) where the beam just went through.

There's a major problem with your argument here; Robot Sally's laser was not an explosion. Actually, nothing implies it's even done via heat. It just makes contact with the wall, and you proceed to see a big boom as the laser disperses. Also, there should be no moment that light bends like that. The air being hot isn't enough to support the argument. You can see a more clear example of how they bend here. That's not even an example where it's wavered either. They are way too inconsistent to be reasonably counted as legitimate lasers.

We never see lasers reflect off of non-reflective rocks again, nor do we see anybody suffering from cartoonish burns as a result of being hit by them ever again.

The instances may not be rocks in specific, but it doesn't mitigate that they're doing things that aren't done by actual lasers. I never really brought up any "cartoonish burns" either. My main gripes are the three I listed.

Higher to a point that is blatantly incomparable to his base statistics. That deserves it's own key, not a mere "higher with power rings" text.

Okay, so yet again, I bring up Goku for this. Kaioken boosts Goku an entire tier in two of his keys, yet they remain in the same key as his base because it's just a temporary boost. It's literally the same case for Sonic; Power Rings only boost his statistics for a very brief period of time.

This is not the same as destroying a city made of wood, concrete, and steel beams. We're talking about a city made entirely out of armor and including a vast underground complex, full of Doomsday Pods, being destroyed to scrap in less than a minute. Not a single fortress, not a city made out of ordinary materials.

Again, I never equated it as automatically the same. What you're bringing up doesn't really change anything; it's still done via them going super fast and wrecking the fortress as they lap around. They're not doing this is in one bust or in such a way that we can remotely call it City level.

Even though Sally's other statistics (hearing, smell, eyesight) aren't shown to be amplified in any way. Neither are Sonic's. So, everything that grants Super Speed on the wiki should be redefined as Statistics Amplification.

I'm going to assume you're engaging in sarcasm and refute what you said. Statistics Amplification doesn't have to boost literally everything else with it. It can be a single stat boost to a multitude of buffs; there is no requisite amount aside from at least one. Items that boost your speed, power, and other statistics are already regarded as that as well.

Yes, I showed the pilot episode of the series, which is never repeated. Also, the dudes that made AoSTH were an entirely different team working with a different director, animators, lead artist, and animation studio. It stopped fitting the atmosphere after they redefined the entire presentation of the show, as I showed in that episode comparison before.

Both of them have pretty heavy involvement from DiC last time I checked. Actually, they also have the same executives, according to Wikipedia. I never said they had the same atmosphere; I said some of the cartoonish elements carrying isn't a surprise.

He visibly burrows a hole through the forcefield, which still exists after he's passed through it. As in, smashed straight through it, leaving a visible cavity. I don't understand how you're getting Power Nullification from that feat.

He doesn't have to negate the entire forcefield for it to count as that. We know the Power Ring is what is even allowing him to do that as well, not his power. It's a reasonable conclusion from there.

Also, now that I'm thinking about it, the Power Rings should get Heat Manipulation from your previous description on some of the other parts too. I'd add that to your draft.

Because the individual isn't de-roboticized: they merely regain control of their mind.

That would still be negating part of the effects. Roboticization encompasses many things; it classifies as Biological Manipulation, Corruption, Mind Manipulation, and Willpower Manipulation. It doesn't have to negate every aspect of Roboticization to count as Power Nullification; we establish there are limits to it, that's it.

Try reading it. It's right there in post #7. "Mind Manipulation and Memory Manipulation with Power Rings".

My bad, I meant I meant to say Willpower Manipulation.

In case you hadn't noticed, this is a cartoon, not a videogame. Even though it is (quite loosely) based on a videogame, it doesn't adhere to videogame logic. The Power Rings are proof of that - they work totally differently in the games.

That wouldn't really change what I said. Videogame characters are just the clearest cut examples of this; that's why I used them to gauge the concept. You could ask why Arceus doesn't just blow up the planet if it's really that pissed off at humans in the movie, or you could ask why Meteora doesn't just destroy the kingdom of Mewni, all at once, when she has the AP to do so. The answer is it's just PIS.

It's reason enough to consider it an outlier.

We don't really regard hax as an outlier. It's more of a case of if you have it or not.

Buzz Bombers never appear ever again. The missiles having the same name and purpose is what's known as a retcon: they are the same missile, pre-retcon, and post retcon.

The Buzz Bombers not reappearing has multiple possible explanations within the episode itself. They are susceptible to water, and they disobeyed Robotnik toward the end of the episode. Regarding the missile, they only share the same name because they have the same purpose. There is no proof they are the same missile.

This is more like taking the play from The Ember Island Players as the canonical version of the events of the show, even though it's a literal play that portrays Aang as a woman, Toph as a man, and it ends with the Fire Lord killing Aang.

And even more unlike The Ember Island Players, I don't see any indication that Heads or Tails even existed in the entire rest of the series. The Buzz Bombers, the water balloon catapults, Nicole being a desktop computer, even Sonic's pet Muttsky - all of these aren't mentioned or seen ever again. Blast To The Past outright contradicts the pilot by showing that Muttsky never even existed, and that Robotropolis always looked the way it did after the pilot.

Nah, it's nothing like taking the play. The play is meant to be a misconstrued parody with very biased accounts of the situations. The pilot may have some weird inconsistencies, but it's pretty consistent with the general idea of the show.

If you are suggesting that there needs to be proof that Heads or Tails counts toward the canon, then that's a reversal of the burden of proof. It's your burden to show how it would be non-canon. All of these can be easily explained: Buzz-Bombers are scrapped for ineffectiveness, water balloon catapults are random gimmicks they try (which actually works on the Buzz-Bombers), Nicole can be hooked up to other devices from what I remember, and Muttsky isn't really relevant later on. Muttsky not appearing in the past comes down to not serving any plot-related purpose. Robotropolis being different is something we just interpret as an inconsistency in design. Characters get updated as the show goes on, such as Sally adopting a blue jacket with no explanation.

 

[Idazmi]

There's a major problem with your argument here; Robot Sally's laser was not an explosion. Actually, nothing implies it's even done via heat. It just makes contact with the wall, and you proceed to see a big boom as the laser disperses. Also, there should be no moment that light bends like that. The air being hot isn't enough to support the argument. You can see a more clear example of how they bend here. That's not even an example where it's wavered either. They are way too inconsistent to be reasonably counted as legitimate lasers.

The scene in question: at 16:37, Robot Sally blasts a hole in the wall, scattering rocks around the area. How can you say it's not an explosion when it's literally an explosion? And again you show a still frame to prove your point about "bending" lasers:



^ in the actual animation, seen at 20:12 in that video, the beams travel in a completely straight line, only wavering after the beam has passed. They are not "curving" in flight.

The instances may not be rocks in specific, but it doesn't mitigate that they're doing things that aren't done by actual lasers. I never really brought up any "cartoonish burns" either. My main gripes are the three I listed.

The instances where they reflect in all other episodes are off of mirrors. I brought up "cartoonish burns" because the beam you used for evidence hit a Buzz Bomber, which was instantly covered in ashes like what you'd see in a comedy skit: along with deflection off of rocks and the Buzz Bombers themselves, this was never shown outside the pilot episode. Therefore, it is an outlier.

Okay, so yet again, I bring up Goku for this. Kaioken boosts Goku an entire tier in two of his keys, yet they remain in the same key as his base because it's just a temporary boost. It's literally the same case for Sonic; Power Rings only boost his statistics for a very brief period of time.

I see Kaio-ken listed separately from his base power all over that article.

Again, I never equated it as automatically the same. What you're bringing up doesn't really change anything; it's still done via them going super fast and wrecking the fortress as they lap around. They're not doing this is in one bust or in such a way that we can remotely call it City level.

We can't treat Robotnik's fortress like it's a town made of normal materials. The entire rationale here is the material used to build Rbotnik's buildings and the short timeframe of destruction: even nuclear explosions do not literally occur instantaneously.

I'm going to assume you're engaging in sarcasm and refute what you said. Statistics Amplification doesn't have to boost literally everything else with it. It can be a single stat boost to a multitude of buffs; there is no requisite amount aside from at least one. Items that boost your speed, power, and other statistics are already regarded as that as well.

1. Sonic is the only one who can use the Power Rings.
2. The Power Rings and Power Stones use the same energy.
3. Sonic can also use the Power Stones.
4. Sonic is channeling the power of the Power Stones through Sally.

That is Power Bestowal, from Sonic to Sally. We've never seen any evidence in the entire series that Sally can use either Power Rings or Power Stones aside from this scene.

Both of them have pretty heavy involvement from DiC last time I checked. Actually, they also have the same executives, according to Wikipedia. I never said they had the same atmosphere; I said some of the cartoonish elements carrying isn't a surprise.

Yes, DiC made both series. In other news, Walt Disney Studios made both Starship Troopers and Snow White. Who made what has nearly no bearing on the individual universe being discussed: only the universe itself is being disucssed, not rights-owners or directors.

He doesn't have to negate the entire forcefield for it to count as that. We know the Power Ring is what is even allowing him to do that as well, not his power. It's a reasonable conclusion from there.

It's the Power Rings power being powerful enough to breach a forcefield.

Also, now that I'm thinking about it, the Power Rings should get Heat Manipulation from your previous description on some of the other parts too. I'd add that to your draft.

Yes, they can generate massive amounts of heat when crushed.

That would still be negating part of the effects. Roboticization encompasses many things; it classifies as Biological Manipulation, Corruption, Mind Manipulation, and Willpower Manipulation. It doesn't have to negate every aspect of Roboticization to count as Power Nullification; we establish there are limits to it, that's it.

It's not nullifying the power, though: it's reversing existing mind control. It doesn't remove the Roboticizer's ability to reprogram a mind.

My bad, I meant I meant to say Willpower Manipulation.

We never see a Power Ring control someone's will.

That wouldn't really change what I said. Videogame characters are just the clearest cut examples of this; that's why I used them to gauge the concept. You could ask why Arceus doesn't just blow up the planet if it's really that pissed off at humans in the movie, or you could ask why Meteora doesn't just destroy the kingdom of Mewni, all at once, when she has the AP to do so. The answer is it's just PIS.

What you said before applies to Game Mechanics, and this cartoon doesn't run on game mechanics. Additionally, you aren't considering other factors that may be at play which prevent Meteora from doing such a thing. However, that is off-topic and I don't know much about Star vs The Forces of Evil, so lets try to stay on topic instead of segueing into Star lore on a Sonic thread.

We don't really regard hax as an outlier. It's more of a case of if you have it or not.

Thing is, this isn't hax: it's an outlier. An outlier that exists in near-total isolation from the rest of the series. This isn't early Archie lore, where everything is intentionally cartoonish: Sonic SatAM abandoned that stuff the very instant the series proper began. You brought up before some points about authorial intent, implying that the pilot is intended to be canon: the authorial intent was clearly to completely abandon the goofier style in favor of a grittier atmosphere. Otherwise, there'd be no reason to change anything.

The Buzz Bombers not reappearing has multiple possible explanations within the episode itself. They are susceptible to water, and they disobeyed Robotnik toward the end of the episode. Regarding the missile, they only share the same name because they have the same purpose. There is no proof they are the same missile.

Fan theory and suppositions are not substitutes for facts. The fact is, we never, ever see them - or hear of them - again. Even Blast to the Past - in which Sonic and Sally travel ten years into the past - doesn't feature Buzz Bombers, Pink Sally, or Muttsky, or anything else specific to the pilot episode. It does feature Stealth-bots in a disassembly plan: but no Buzz Bombers.

The "Hedgehog Missile" seen in Sonic Boom is not indicated to be an evolution of the previous design. It is merely the "Hedgehog Missile".

Nah, it's nothing like taking the play. The play is meant to be a misconstrued parody with very biased accounts of the situations. The pilot may have some weird inconsistencies, but it's pretty consistent with the general idea of the show.

Pilot episodes are typically consistent with the general idea of the final show. They are inconsistent in multiple relevant details, and in this case, greatly so. Heck: by that logic, SatAM is canon to Sonic CD because both have the same general idea, including environmental pollution and a few cyberpunk elements:

If you are suggesting that there needs to be proof that Heads or Tails counts toward the canon, then that's a reversal of the burden of proof. It's your burden to show how it would be non-canon. All of these can be easily explained: Buzz-Bombers are scrapped for ineffectiveness, water balloon catapults are random gimmicks they try (which actually works on the Buzz-Bombers), Nicole can be hooked up to other devices from what I remember, and Muttsky isn't really relevant later on. Muttsky not appearing in the past comes down to not serving any plot-related purpose. Robotropolis being different is something we just interpret as an inconsistency in design. Characters get updated as the show goes on, such as Sally adopting a blue jacket with no explanation.

It's not a reversal of the burden of proof because the episode shows itself to be a completely different tone and style, in addition to it's events being completely contradicted by the main lore of the series going forwards. Let's put it this way:



^ The Mandalorian has gritty action...



^ And it has humor...



Is that last video canon to the other two? Especially since it was officially made, has the official actors, and also has humor? If the answer is yes, then we can say Heads or Tails is canon.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

The scene in question: at 16:37, Robot Sally blasts a hole in the wall, scattering rocks around the area. How can you say it's not an explosion when it's literally an explosion? And again you show a still frame to prove your point about "bending" lasers:



^ in the actual animation, seen at 20:12 in that video, the beams travel in a completely straight line, only wavering after the beam has passed. They are not "curving" in flight.

I suggest you actually look up what an explosion is defined as, along with what it looks like. That's not what an explosion is whatsoever; it's further dismissed as not being one as the feat isn't implied to be done via heat. The aftereffect is just the wall crumbling.

Also, you're right, I did use a still frame. Otherwise, you can't really see it because the tweening sequence for the beams is really short. Also, what do you mean after the beam is passed? Do you mean when they are out of the source? Yeah, lasers still aren't supposed to do that. It's not even a matter of contact either because some of them just randomly do when they're in the middle of the air. If you want to complain about still frames, I'll even show you the sequence progression in this Imgur gallery. The lasers are just far too awkward to use.

The instances where they reflect in all other episodes are off of mirrors. I brought up "cartoonish burns" because the beam you used for evidence hit a Buzz Bomber, which was instantly covered in ashes like what you'd see in a comedy skit: along with deflection off of rocks and the Buzz Bombers themselves, this was never shown outside the pilot episode. Therefore, it is an outlier.

I'm not sure that's entirely true, but I would need to look through the series again to evaluate if that's the case. There aren't that many instances where reflection is involved regardless, so you can't really classify it as an outlier with such a limited sample pool.

I see Kaio-ken listed separately from his base power all over that article.

I'm not sure if you're new or not, but Kaioken is listed in the same key in the article.

"Tier: At least 5-C. Low 5-B after King Kai's training, 5-B with Kaio-ken | At least 5-B, higher with Kaio-ken. At least High 5-A post-Zenkai, Low 4-C with Kaio-ken x10 and x20, the Spirit Bomb and as a Super Saiyan | Low 4-C, 4-C. 4-C, at least High 4-C | 4-C, High 4-C, 4-B"
"Key: Saiyan Saga | Namek Saga | Android Saga | Buu Saga"

Notice how the key is divided between time periods rather than power-ups or temporary boosts? That's precisely how Power Rings should be treated here. There's also another major flaw with your argument here; Power Rings having very brief amplification intervals means they can't stand alone in a VS Thread.

We can't treat Robotnik's fortress like it's a town made of normal materials. The entire rationale here is the material used to build Rbotnik's buildings and the short timeframe of destruction: even nuclear explosions do not literally occur instantaneously.

I'm not saying we can treat the fortress as if it's made of normal materials. Nuclear explosions don't destroy the structure from the inside nor is their speed the exact same as Power Stone-amped Sonic and Sally. That's not really a valid comparison.

Actually, I did find something interesting about them. Apparently, the Deep Power Stones act as a 10,000x amplifier from the Power Rings. Now while the statement is referring to power, it'd be logical to assume it extends to speed as well. I say this because it noticeably amps Sally's speed too, and the Deep Power Stones being similar to Power Rings would support this (the Power Rings boost Sonic's speed obviously). The unfortunate part here is that we don't know the exact amount the Power Rings amplify someone, so we'll just have to use 10,000x.

Let's do this for the AP first. Sonic's current AP is scaled to 96.42532745208 megajoules from this calc. If we multiply that by the 10,000x boost of the Power Stones, we get 964253.2745 megajoules or 230.462063814532 Tons of TNT. This would solidly put Sonic and Sally at 8-A/Multi-City Block level with the Power Stones. I would put an "At least" or "likely higher" here though because this amplifier is on top of what the Power Rings provide already.

As for the speed, we have to do this based on the Hypersonic and Massively Hypersonic+ ratings. Mach 5 is what's needed to make a trail of fire behind you, so we just need to essentially multiply it by 10,000x. This outputs Mach 50,000 or 5.72% of the speed of light. The minimum speed they would get is Sub-Relativistic+. As for the Massively Hypersonic+ portion, the average speed of lightning is Mach 1294 or 4.4×10^5 m/s by the wiki's standards. It's the same process of multiplying by 10,000x. We get 4.4×10^9 m/s or 1.468c; this would solidly put their top speed at FTL.

If we take all of the above into consideration, they could absolutely do what we're suggesting here without being 7-B.

1. Sonic is the only one who can use the Power Rings.
2. The Power Rings and Power Stones use the same energy.
3. Sonic can also use the Power Stones.
4. Sonic is channeling the power of the Power Stones through Sally.

That is Power Bestowal, from Sonic to Sally. We've never seen any evidence in the entire series that Sally can use either Power Rings or Power Stones aside from this scene.

The problem with your argument is that you ignore why they only work for Sonic. Sonic outright explains that Uncle Chuck made them specifically for him. There's no reason as to why Sally couldn't use something non-specialized otherwise. Your argument even makes less sense considering that Sally could fly on her own too. Sonic isn't necessary as a conduit to use those abilities. Sally's inability to use the Power Rings is case-specific, and we have no other scenes of them using the Deep Power Stones. The fact they are even compared to the Power Rings would just further correlate that it's Statistics Amplification too.

Yes, DiC made both series. In other news, Walt Disney Studios made both Starship Troopers and Snow White. Who made what has nearly no bearing on the individual universe being discussed: only the universe itself is being disucssed, not rights-owners or directors.

Okay, then they do have something in common, unlike how you tried to portray it. Your analogy doesn't work because it's a false equivalence; Starship Troopers and Snow White were released 60 years apart, while AoStH and SatAM first broadcasted a couple of weeks apart. There is literally no comparison here. Also, those aspects are entirely relevant here. Your main argument against Toon Force here is that it's tonally inconsistent and out of place. I'm saying otherwise as it fits the type of characters being featured; the show also has shared people from a very gag heavy show (even of the same franchise). We are discussing the universe by discussing its merits to have cartoonish gags.

It's the Power Rings power being powerful enough to breach a forcefield.

Can you give a reason for why this would be the case?

Yes, they can generate massive amounts of heat when crushed.

I am glad we can agree on this.

It's not nullifying the power, though: it's reversing existing mind control. It doesn't remove the Roboticizer's ability to reprogram a mind.

That would still be Power Nullification. It's negating the current effect entirely for that period of time. That's a side effect of the Power Rings only be able to have a general usage for a brief period of time.

We never see a Power Ring control someone's will.

I never said we did. I'm saying we should make a note that it reverts it. Roboticization is noted to affect someone's will as well, and a Power Ring has shown to reverse that effect on Uncle Chuck.

What you said before applies to Game Mechanics, and this cartoon doesn't run on game mechanics. Additionally, you aren't considering other factors that may be at play which prevent Meteora from doing such a thing. However, that is off-topic and I don't know much about Star vs The Forces of Evil, so lets try to stay on topic instead of segueing into Star lore on a Sonic thread.

Not really, it's a combination of both. Even then, you can apply the same thing to their cartoons/anime as well. There's not really much of an excuse in Meteora's case; she's literally infinitely above the number of joules needed to destroy a castle. The general reason she doesn't do so immediately is because of PIS. I mainly brought up examples to demonstrate a point (you completely ignored the Arceus one though). They are relevant because you don't need really need to note that in the AP description. For the same reason you cast away the other things as just Game Mechanics, we can do the same with PIS.

Thing is, this isn't hax: it's an outlier. An outlier that exists in near-total isolation from the rest of the series. This isn't early Archie lore, where everything is intentionally cartoonish: Sonic SatAM abandoned that stuff the very instant the series proper began. You brought up before some points about authorial intent, implying that the pilot is intended to be canon: the authorial intent was clearly to completely abandon the goofier style in favor of a grittier atmosphere. Otherwise, there'd be no reason to change anything.

Toon Force is an ability; there is no disputing this. "Near-total isolation" is exaggerating it. Sonic has multiple moments where he does something like this such as a random 4th Wall Break or the running on air example I gave earlier. I did bring up authorial intent, yes. However, your application of it falls completely flat on its face. If they really wanted to abandon the idea of any goofy moments, then why do any of these types of moments exist after the pilot. The answer is that while they wanted to go for a darker atmosphere in the show, they didn't discredit having occasional gags here and there. You have to remember what characters are being used here. The tone of the show cannot be your only reason for removing these feats.

Fan theory and suppositions are not substitutes for facts. The fact is, we never, ever see them - or hear of them - again. Even Blast to the Past - in which Sonic and Sally travel ten years into the past - doesn't feature Buzz Bombers, Pink Sally, or Muttsky, or anything else specific to the pilot episode. It does feature Stealth-bots in a disassembly plan: but no Buzz Bombers.

The "Hedgehog Missile" seen in Sonic Boom is not indicated to be an evolution of the previous design. It is merely the "Hedgehog Missile".

You're right that the fact is we never see them again. However, it's how we interpret that fact with explanations that involve assumptions. On a technical level, your explanation is an assumption just like mine. Assumptions aren't automatically bad as long as they aren't unfounded. A fan theory isn't really the right word for this either as they're more logical solutions to a conundrum.

This is the exact same point you've already said. There is no reason to feature Muttsky, Pink Sally, or the Buzz Bombers in the episode: Muttsky has absolutely no plot relevance to the episodes, Pink Sally was a stylistic change, and your idea relies on the Buzz Bombers being developed back then for this to work when we have no timeframe of when they were made chronologically. Other details don't have to fully pop up to tie the two; you could literally nitpick other episodes like this too if we went by this logic. You even mentioned a thing they have in common, so I'm not sure what the problem is here.

Why would they note it's an evolution? The pilot might come earlier chronologically, but it was released later on. There would be no frame of reference of what it's evolved from, so it'd be a very weird narrative exposition.

Pilot episodes are typically consistent with the general idea of the final show. They are inconsistent in multiple relevant details, and in this case, greatly so. Heck: by that logic, SatAM is canon to Sonic CD because both have the same general idea, including environmental pollution and a few cyberpunk elements:

SatAM's case is far better than a lot of pilots. One of the pilots that comes to mind is Steven Universe where the characters look nothing like how they do in the final product and have so many other contradictions littered in it (keep in mind a source for the show already said it was non-canon though). The worst that SatAM does design-wise would be getting some different palettes and maybe shorter height for a couple of characters. It's mostly consistent with the rest of the show otherwise. Also, this would be a false equivalence on your behalf. I'm arguing in favor of this mostly because it's an aired episode of the series. Classic Sonic and SatAM would have practically nothing to tie them together.

It's not a reversal of the burden of proof because the episode shows itself to be a completely different tone and style, in addition to it's events being completely contradicted by the main lore of the series going forwards. Let's put it this way:



^ The Mandalorian has gritty action...



^ And it has humor...



Is that last video canon to the other two? Especially since it was officially made, has the official actors, and also has humor? If the answer is yes, then we can say Heads or Tails is canon.

Would you mind explaining any actual contradictions? Your ideas thus far are minor things not showing up again or stylistic differences, which aren't a particularly strong argument in itself. It very much is a reversal of the burden of proof because it falls completely on you to show why it wouldn't be canon.

We meet the exact same problem here. The examples you're linking are decades apart, and I don't believe they actually have anything to suggest they're canon to each other. We're talking about an episode that is within the same series and ran as part of the season. Regardless of if the answer is yes or no, it doesn't determine anything for Heads or Tails if it's not a similar situation.

 

[Idazmi]

I suggest you actually look up what an explosion is defined as, along with what it looks like. That's not what an explosion is whatsoever; it's further dismissed as not being one as the feat isn't implied to be done via heat. The aftereffect is just the wall crumbling.

So you're ignoring the visible blast, the flying debris, and the explosion sound entirely. Got it.

Also, you're right, I did use a still frame. Otherwise, you can't really see it because the tweening sequence for the beams is really short. Also, what do you mean after the beam is passed? Do you mean when they are out of the source? Yeah, lasers still aren't supposed to do that. It's not even a matter of contact either because some of them just randomly do when they're in the middle of the air. If you want to complain about still frames, I'll even show you the sequence progression in this Imgur gallery. The lasers are just far too awkward to use.

So you're ignoring what I said about the heat from the laser causing a "wavering" effect in the air. The lasers travel in a straight line, and waver only after hitting their target, so they are not curving. And you don't need to show me any more still images: you need to address the full animated scene that I already posted above.

I'm not sure that's entirely true, but I would need to look through the series again to evaluate if that's the case. There aren't that many instances where reflection is involved regardless, so you can't really classify it as an outlier with such a limited sample pool.

Yes I can, because the "sample pool" is your one example from the pilot episode vs 25 main series episodes.

I'm not sure if you're new or not, but Kaioken is listed in the same key in the article.

"Tier: At least 5-C. Low 5-B after King Kai's training, 5-B with Kaio-ken | At least 5-B, higher with Kaio-ken. At least High 5-A post-Zenkai, Low 4-C with Kaio-ken x10 and x20, the Spirit Bomb and as a Super Saiyan | Low 4-C, 4-C. 4-C, at least High 4-C | 4-C, High 4-C, 4-B"
"Key: Saiyan Saga | Namek Saga | Android Saga | Buu Saga"
Notice how the key is divided between time periods rather than power-ups or temporary boosts? That's precisely how Power Rings should be treated here. There's also another major flaw with your argument here; Power Rings having very brief amplification intervals means they can't stand alone in a VS Thread.

Sonic SatAM, unlike Dragonball, doesn't have any decades long lore and ongoing power creep to justify such condensed divisions. He only has three power states: Base, with a Power Ring, and with the Power Stones. Each can be their own key as long as the information isn't inaccurate.

I'm not saying we can treat the fortress as if it's made of normal materials. Nuclear explosions don't destroy the structure from the inside nor is their speed the exact same as Power Stone-amped Sonic and Sally. That's not really a valid comparison.

There's no "valid comparison" for a lot of fictional feats. The closest real-world comparison I could find to destroying an area that huge to such a degree was a nuclear strike, so that's what I went with, especially since there was a lot of outward energy release in that sequence. They didn't literally punch every square inch of the place until it was rubble: they passed by and/or passed through, causing things to violently explode, and to such a degree that the place was entirely reduced to scrap.

Actually, I did find something interesting about them. Apparently, the Deep Power Stones act as a 10,000x amplifier from the Power Rings. Now while the statement is referring to power, it'd be logical to assume it extends to speed as well. I say this because it noticeably amps Sally's speed too, and the Deep Power Stones being similar to Power Rings would support this (the Power Rings boost Sonic's speed obviously). The unfortunate part here is that we don't know the exact amount the Power Rings amplify someone, so we'll just have to use 10,000x.

Then Sally's speed would have been lower than Sonics, since Sonic's base speed is far, far higher than Sally's... but that's not what happened. What actually happened was both of them, at equal speed, running side-by-side, destroyed Robotnik's facility. And Sally isn't amped by Power Rings at all: only Sonic can use them. It's logical to assume she can't use the Power Stones either. That means Sonic is deliberately sharing the power with Sally, like a less destructive version of this feat:



The difference being that Sally gained usable powers from doing so, which even lingered long after the feat was done.

Let's do this for the AP first. Sonic's current AP is scaled to 96.42532745208 megajoules from this calc. If we multiply that by the 10,000x boost of the Power Stones, we get (...)

Far less than we are supposed to, because the Power Stones are 10,000 times the Power Rings' base power, not 10,000 times Sonic's base power. In addition, you are assuming that the prior calculation represents Sonic's full base power. It doesn't: Sonic survived those blasts without even a slight scratch (so we can't honestly say he's even on the same tier as those blasts) and has higher demonstrated durability feats (as I showed in my first post), which is a reason why I'm proposing this upgrade in the first place.

In addition, you are still assuming that the power stones are simple statistic amplification, which they aren't. In fact, it's plainly shown that Power Rings provide immense power without having any statistics to amplify, so what's happening is the Power Ring is adding it's power to Sonic, not just boosting what's already there by a rote number.

The problem with your argument is that you ignore why they only work for Sonic. Sonic outright explains that Uncle Chuck made them specifically for him. There's no reason as to why Sally couldn't use something non-specialized otherwise. Your argument even makes less sense considering that Sally could fly on her own too. Sonic isn't necessary as a conduit to use those abilities. Sally's inability to use the Power Rings is case-specific, and we have no other scenes of them using the Deep Power Stones. The fact they are even compared to the Power Rings would just further correlate that it's Statistics Amplification too.

1. Sally being granted Flight is not statistics amplification because Base Sally cannot fly at all, thus supporting my point.
2. Sally could only fly after Sonic transferred the Power Stone energy to her. She didn't use the Power Stones by herself.

Okay, then they do have something in common, unlike how you tried to portray it. Your analogy doesn't work because it's a false equivalence; Starship Troopers and Snow White were released 60 years apart, while AoStH and SatAM first broadcasted a couple of weeks apart. There is literally no comparison here. Also, those aspects are entirely relevant here. Your main argument against Toon Force here is that it's tonally inconsistent and out of place. I'm saying otherwise as it fits the type of characters being featured; the show also has shared people from a very gag heavy show (even of the same franchise). We are discussing the universe by discussing its merits to have cartoonish gags.

Yet, the Lion King and Starship Troopers were released in the same decade as each other, and still by the Walt Disney Company. Your argument is ridiculous: the universe determines the feats. Timon and Pumbaa aren't fighting on Klendathu: neither is Mulan.

Can you give a reason for why this would be the case?

You witness a Power Ring melting a city-block sized factory to liquid by itself and then question how it would have enough power to breach a forcefield? @_@

That would still be Power Nullification. It's negating the current effect entirely for that period of time. That's a side effect of the Power Rings only be able to have a general usage for a brief period of time.

No it isn't, otherwise he would be de-roboticized instead of simply regaining control of his thoughts.

I never said we did. I'm saying we should make a note that it reverts it. Roboticization is noted to affect someone's will as well, and a Power Ring has shown to reverse that effect on Uncle Chuck.

Uncle Chuck regained control of his mind permanently without even using a power ring at the end of Sonic Conversion:



At 17:56 in this video, note how the Power Ring was not used on Chuck here. That means the Power Rings demonstrate less power over his mind than his own natural force of will. That shouldn't be possible if they are "willpower manipulation". All the rings do is deprogram the roboticized person on a temporary basis.

Not really, it's a combination of both. Even then, you can apply the same thing to their cartoons/anime as well. There's not really much of an excuse in Meteora's case; she's literally infinitely above the number of joules needed to destroy a castle. The general reason she doesn't do so immediately is because of PIS. I mainly brought up examples to demonstrate a point (you completely ignored the Arceus one though). They are relevant because you don't need really need to note that in the AP description. For the same reason you cast away the other things as just Game Mechanics, we can do the same with PIS.

Like I said, let's not get into Star lore on a Sonic thread. I don't know enough about that show to refute you because I don't watch it (I don't know the actual durability of the castle or the power of it's presumably magical inhabitants, etc), and seeing the arguments that you've been tossing at me, I'm not inclined to just take you at your word.

Toon Force is an ability; there is no disputing this. "Near-total isolation" is exaggerating it. Sonic has multiple moments where he does something like this such as a random 4th Wall Break or the running on air example I gave earlier. I did bring up authorial intent, yes. However, your application of it falls completely flat on its face. If they really wanted to abandon the idea of any goofy moments, then why do any of these types of moments exist after the pilot. The answer is that while they wanted to go for a darker atmosphere in the show, they didn't discredit having occasional gags here and there. You have to remember what characters are being used here. The tone of the show cannot be your only reason for removing these feats.

1. I never said Toon Force isn't an ability.

2. I didn't say there was no humor in the cartoon.

I said they wanted to make the cartoon darker, and abandon the entirely goofy tone the pilot had, and they did. Tell you what: if you can find an example of a hedgehog missile - or any other missile - reacting like a thing from Loony Tunes skit in the rest of the series, I'll accept Heads or Tails as canon. You won't find one.

You're right that the fact is we never see them again. However, it's how we interpret that fact with explanations that involve assumptions. On a technical level, your explanation is an assumption just like mine. Assumptions aren't automatically bad as long as they aren't unfounded. A fan theory isn't really the right word for this either as they're more logical solutions to a conundrum.

This is the exact same point you've already said. There is no reason to feature Muttsky, Pink Sally, or the Buzz Bombers in the episode: Muttsky has absolutely no plot relevance to the episodes, Pink Sally was a stylistic change, and your idea relies on the Buzz Bombers being developed back then for this to work when we have no timeframe of when they were made chronologically. Other details don't have to fully pop up to tie the two; you could literally nitpick other episodes like this too if we went by this logic. You even mentioned a thing they have in common, so I'm not sure what the problem is here.

Muttsky is an emotional point for Sonic, as shown in Heads or Tails, thus giving him plot relevance: more relevance than Rosie the Nanny, who was introduced in that episode and promptly forgotten. And there's no reason for Robotnik to use incompetent Buzz Bombers when the far more effective StealthBots were already in mass production.

Why would they note it's an evolution? The pilot might come earlier chronologically, but it was released later on. There would be no frame of reference of what it's evolved from, so it'd be a very weird narrative exposition.

Which is another reason why we shouldn't take the pilot seriously: we're expected to believe that Robotnik just invented the Hedgehog missile - which Robotnik himself says in the pilot - when we saw more effective Hedgehog Missiles in previous episodes already.

SatAM's case is far better than a lot of pilots. One of the pilots that comes to mind is Steven Universe where the characters look nothing like how they do in the final product and have so many other contradictions littered in it (keep in mind a source for the show already said it was non-canon though). The worst that SatAM does design-wise would be getting some different palettes and maybe shorter height for a couple of characters. It's mostly consistent with the rest of the show otherwise. Also, this would be a false equivalence on your behalf. I'm arguing in favor of this mostly because it's an aired episode of the series. Classic Sonic and SatAM would have practically nothing to tie them together.

See above: we're expected to believe that Robotnik just invented the Hedgehog missile - which Robotnik himself says in the pilot - when we saw more effective Hedgehog Missiles in previous episodes already. Classic Sonic (specifically, Sonic CD) can be much better argued to be canon to SatAM than the pilot episode can, especially with the original official American version of the game, and the general tone of the game.

Would you mind explaining any actual contradictions? Your ideas thus far are minor things not showing up again or stylistic differences, which aren't a particularly strong argument in itself. It very much is a reversal of the burden of proof because it falls completely on you to show why it wouldn't be canon.

See above.

We meet the exact same problem here. The examples you're linking are decades apart, and I don't believe they actually have anything to suggest they're canon to each other. We're talking about an episode that is within the same series and ran as part of the season. Regardless of if the answer is yes or no, it doesn't determine anything for Heads or Tails if it's not a similar situation.

Except it is definitely a similar situation. Din Djarin's armor and his Amban phase-pulse blaster were both inspired directly from that cartoon: so, is it canon or not?

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

So you're ignoring the visible blast, the flying debris, and the explosion sound entirely. Got it.

No? The blast is just the laser itself, so that's not even a contributing factor. The flying debris and a sound effect aren't specific to lasers; that could be accomplished through an energy blast. The fact we see nothing to suggest it was via heat is what kills the explosion argument. The scene treats it more like pure destruction.

So you're ignoring what I said about the heat from the laser causing a "wavering" effect in the air. The lasers travel in a straight line, and waver only after hitting their target, so they are not curving. And you don't need to show me any more still images: you need to address the full animated scene that I already posted above.

No, I addressed that awhile back. You repeated your argument and ignored what I said. Lasers don't just magically waver in the air; you'd actually see my images address your waver argument because it directly shows one of them wavering without making visible contact with something. I'm rather sure lasers aren't supposed to even bend like that after they make contact as well.

Yes I can, because the "sample pool" is your one example from the pilot episode vs 25 main series episodes.

That's not how a sample pool works. You'd be comparing the other examples in which it reflects, not the number of episodes. Also, don't try to put it in quotations as if it doesn't exist. It's a legitimate thing in statistics, and you should understand that before you throw "OUTLIER!!!" around again.

Sonic SatAM, unlike Dragonball, doesn't have any decades long lore and ongoing power creep to justify such condensed divisions. He only has three power states: Base, with a Power Ring, and with the Power Stones. Each can be their own key as long as the information isn't inaccurate.

Long lore and power creep have literally nothing to do with why the profile is like that. The same is true for other profiles of a similar nature too. Look no further than Game Shadow's profile. There is no separate key for removing limiters here; it is in the same key as Base. You can't even make the same argument of keys here because others have up to eight. The most Shadow would get from dividing them is six. You completely glossed over the reason as well. They don't last long enough as boosts to warrant their own key in a VS Thread.

There's no "valid comparison" for a lot of fictional feats. The closest real-world comparison I could find to destroying an area that huge to such a degree was a nuclear strike, so that's what I went with, especially since there was a lot of outward energy release in that sequence. They didn't literally punch every square inch of the place until it was rubble: they passed by and/or passed through, causing things to violently explode, and to such a degree that the place was entirely reduced to scrap.

If you know this to be the case, then I'm not sure why you even tried to use that as an example. You've described partially described the problem here; they do it by going around the facility and accumulate the damage as they go on. That's not solid enough to be a 7-B feat for fairly obvious reasons at this point.

Then Sally's speed would have been lower than Sonics, since Sonic's base speed is far, far higher than Sally's... but that's not what happened. What actually happened was both of them, at equal speed, running side-by-side, destroyed Robotnik's facility. And Sally isn't amped by Power Rings at all: only Sonic can use them. It's logical to assume she can't use the Power Stones either. That means Sonic is deliberately sharing the power with Sally, like a less destructive version of this feat:



The difference being that Sally gained usable powers from doing so, which even lingered long after the feat was done.

Sally's combat and reaction speeds are relative to Sonic's, but her travel speed isn't. That's just a common thing with speedsters. Also, notice that this is a case of flight speed rather than travel speed as well. They're running while doing this, but they are very clearly flying. We don't have a frame of reference for flight speed for either of them too. Your entire argument is moot upon that consideration. I've already explained why we don't see Power Rings amp Sally; it's very blatantly stated that they were designed only for Sonic. It's not logical to assume that only Sonic can utilize the Power Stones when your premise ignores in-universe explanations.

Occam's Razor destroys this argument. My interpretation is that Sally was amped just like Sonic by the Deep Power Stones. Your interpretation requires far more assumptions: it has Sonic acting as the conduit for Sally's power, Sally being unable to use the stones despite being left for her alone, and she manages to keep some of the power without Sonic because enough of it lingered. Occam's Razor easily sides with my interpretation because it requires far fewer postulates, and it's the simplest answer.

Far less than we are supposed to, because the Power Stones are 10,000 times the Power Rings' base power, not 10,000 times Sonic's base power. In addition, you are assuming that the prior calculation represents Sonic's full base power. It doesn't: Sonic survived those blasts without even a slight scratch (so we can't honestly say he's even on the same tier as those blasts) and has higher demonstrated durability feats (as I showed in my first post), which is a reason why I'm proposing this upgrade in the first place.

In addition, you are still assuming that the power stones are simple statistic amplification, which they aren't. In fact, it's plainly shown that Power Rings provide immense power without having any statistics to amplify, so what's happening is the Power Ring is adding it's power to Sonic, not just boosting what's already there by a rote number.

If you actually read what I said again instead of skimming, perhaps you'd understand why I did all of this? Nonetheless, I'll break it down because I hopefully have your attention this time.

1.) I am aware that the Power Stones are 10,000x the Power Rings' amplification. However, we don't have an official multiplier for them in-universe. If you actually read my comment, you would see I said, "The unfortunate part here is that we don't know the exact amount the Power Rings amplify someone, so we'll just have to use 10,000x." If we had an actual multiplier we could use, I would be totally down with stacking it on top of that. However, since we don't, we have to use 10,000x. The way we resolve the fact of it being an unquantifiable boost is through my previous suggestions: we can use "At least" or "likely higher."

2.) I'm not saying that's Sonic's full power either. However, we can't just bump it higher without a calc to back it up. Saitama still has a High 6-A rating despite those feats being casual. We have to evaluate characters based on what they've shown; we don't evaluate them based on what they could potentially do through fanon belief. Also, I wouldn't say he survived them without a problem. He yells in pain and starts rubbing his head from the impact.

3.) Can you give any actual showings of this being the case? The most basic aspect of them is that they are supposed to empower Sonic; we don't have much for them. They seem more like stat amplifiers considering they boost Sonic's speed too.

4.) Until you actually get the feat you're talking about calced and evaluated, we cannot use it. I don't see why the AP is being revised without a thorough evaluation.

1. Sally being granted Flight is not statistics amplification because Base Sally cannot fly at all, thus supporting my point.
2. Sally could only fly after Sonic transferred the Power Stone energy to her. She didn't use the Power Stones by herself.

I never said Statistics Amplification grants flight; you pulled that out of your ass or just misinterpreted what I said. And if you're trying to switch this back to Power Bestowal (because this isn't even what this reply was referring to), that's a side effect of the item's usage. You don't see Catch Cards getting Power Bestowal in Mario despite them giving him Sealing.

You say Sonic did that, but there is no proof he did. The scene pretty much implies they received the amp at the same time. Your argument goes against the narrative as well; the whole scene shows the Deep Power Stones coming together as one for their power. This is meant to parallel what Sonic and Sally are doing. Your interpretation would conflict heavily with the intention here.

Yet, the Lion King and Starship Troopers were released in the same decade as each other, and still by the Walt Disney Company. Your argument is ridiculous: the universe determines the feats. Timon and Pumbaa aren't fighting on Klendathu: neither is Mulan.

Okay, let me put this on the realest level possible because you keep misunderstanding the problem here. We're talking about a show featuring multiple of the same characters, multiple people in common staff-wise, and released within a couple of weeks within each other. Not only that, the animation styles are very similar. None of the examples you've listed fit all of this. Disney is probably one of the worst examples you could use as well; 90s Disney >>>>>>> 90s DiC in terms of staff diversity.

You witness a Power Ring melting a city-block sized factory to liquid by itself and then question how it would have enough power to breach a forcefield? @_@

Yes, it's a perfectly valid question. Forcefields can vary in what they can withstand. Actually, I asked for you to prove it was related to power in general instead of hax. Your answer was an unrelated rhetorical question, so I'd actually like something of substance, please.

No it isn't, otherwise he would be de-roboticized instead of simply regaining control of his thoughts.

Again, that would be a limitation on what it negates. Power Nullification doesn't have to negate every single ability it comes in contact with. Roboticization has multiple effects; we've been over this.

Uncle Chuck regained control of his mind permanently without even using a power ring at the end of Sonic Conversion:



At 17:56 in this video, note how the Power Ring was not used on Chuck here. That means the Power Rings demonstrate less power over his mind than his own natural force of will. That shouldn't be possible if they are "willpower manipulation". All the rings do is deprogram the roboticized person on a temporary basis.

This would give Uncle Chuck Supernatural Willpower; it wouldn't discredit the Power Rings reverting Willpower Manipulation. If you're implying normal willpower can overcome the effects, then I want you to explain the millions of subservient Mobians still under Robotnik's rule. The answer is that Uncle Chuck is a special case. Temporary =/= not reverting it.

Like I said, let's not get into Star lore on a Sonic thread. I don't know enough about that show to refute you because I don't watch it (I don't know the actual durability of the castle or the power of it's presumably magical inhabitants, etc), and seeing the arguments that you've been tossing at me, I'm not inclined to just take you at your word.

I'm not getting into Star lore at all; I'm explaining my example because you keep attacking its validity. In the same way I'm humoring your Star Wars examples, you should do a similar thing. You're missing the point entirely. The point is there is no reason to argue it. It's Plot-Induced Stupidity, so you shouldn't be using it to reflect a character's stats, to begin with.

1. I never said Toon Force isn't an ability.

2. I didn't say there was no humor in the cartoon.

I said they wanted to make the cartoon darker, and abandon the entirely goofy tone the pilot had, and they did. Tell you what: if you can find an example of a hedgehog missile - or any other missile - reacting like a thing from Loony Tunes skit in the rest of the series, I'll accept Heads or Tails as canon. You won't find one.

"Thing is, this isn't hax: it's an outlier."
^You

You directly said that Toon Force isn't hax. Unless you used poor wording here, I called it as I saw it.

I didn't deny the idea that they wanted to make it more serious, but the problem I head with your argument was trying to say that the Toon Force doesn't apply because it's not tonally consistent with the gritty atmosphere. I gave you multiple examples of it still existing. This point isn't about Heads or Tails' canonicity; you need to stop trying to divert the topic. Either you have a refute about the Toon Force, or you don't. If you don't, then you should concede this point formally.

Muttsky is an emotional point for Sonic, as shown in Heads or Tails, thus giving him plot relevance: more relevance than Rosie the Nanny, who was introduced in that episode and promptly forgotten. And there's no reason for Robotnik to use incompetent Buzz Bombers when the far more effective StealthBots were already in mass production.

He has plot relevance for that one episode. I'd argue Uncle Chuck and the King are far more important characters to cover (that's precisely why they appear). As for Rosie, I'm not sure as to why she was even introduced. She would have been out of place in pretty much every other episode. I agree that they are less effective, which is why we don't see them again.

Which is another reason why we shouldn't take the pilot seriously: we're expected to believe that Robotnik just invented the Hedgehog missile - which Robotnik himself says in the pilot - when we saw more effective Hedgehog Missiles in previous episodes already.

See above: we're expected to believe that Robotnik just invented the Hedgehog missile - which Robotnik himself says in the pilot - when we saw more effective Hedgehog Missiles in previous episodes already. Classic Sonic (specifically, Sonic CD) can be much better argued to be canon to SatAM than the pilot episode can, especially with the original official American version of the game, and the general tone of the game

Damn, it's like you ignored what I said again. I already said we'd explain this through the pilot come first chronologically. Even though this may be the first instance chronologically, the first episode we see it in is the series premiere. There would be no frame of reference of what it's evolved from, so it'd be a very weird narrative exposition.

I'm not sure why you keep pushing the Sonic CD comparison. The only thing they'd have in common would be tone, but you'd be arguing a horrible reason there. Literally, every other aspect of Sonic CD would clash far more than the pilot does. I'm not sure what this hate boner is toward the pilot, but you keep making frankly unrealistic comparisons here for an exaggerated effect. It's incredibly disingenuous for the actual context and people reading the thread.

Except it is definitely a similar situation. Din Djarin's armor and his Amban phase-pulse blaster were both inspired directly from that cartoon: so, is it canon or not?

Inspiration =/= canon. I hope you realize that was never my argument, lol. I argued Heads or Tails was canon because it aired alongside the first season. There's a clear intention for it to be counted here. I'll repeat what I said for good measure.

"We meet the exact same problem here. The examples you're linking are decades apart, and I don't believe they actually have anything to suggest they're canon to each other. We're talking about an episode that is within the same series and ran as part of the season. Regardless of if the answer is yes or no, it doesn't determine anything for Heads or Tails if it's not a similar situation."

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Bump

 

[ElixirBlue]

What upgrades are currently accepted or what changes have been discussed?

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

What upgrades are currently accepted or what changes have been discussed?

Some things listed in the OP are back in contention, but I can summarize the ongoing discussions and what's accepted.

Accepted:

• The description of "air propellers" needs to be changed to anti-gravity. There is no ability to change here; it's just removing an aspect of the current description. Additionally, the Surface Scaling needs clarification that it stems from the Anti-Gravity shoes.
• Resistance to Electricity Manipulation needs removal.
• Resistance to Willpower Manipulation and Mind Manipulation should be specific to Uncle Chuck. Sonic only gets something related to them through Power Rings. Sonic needs them removed as flat-out resistances.
• Sonic should have Durability Negation added.
• Power Rings should have Heat Manipulation added.

In Contention:

• There is disagreement on whether or not Sonic's Base should gain a tier upgrade. The OP claims he should be Building level, but I oppose this due to the lack of calculations to substantiate it.
• Lasers following the criteria compliantly is another issue. The OP insists they are legitimate because they reflect off mirrors, are labeled as lasers, and burn/melt things on impact. I oppose this because they have shown to bounce off rocks, bend/waver when they shouldn't, and cause destruction without explosions or heat. It's important to note that the canonicity of an episode somewhat plays into this discussion too.
• Power Rings having a separate key on Sonic's profile is a topic of discussion. The OP believes they should because they substantially boost Sonic physically with some abilities to boot. I oppose this because they act as very temporary boosts, and we have profiles that give "higher" notes in cases like this (refer to Goku and Shadow).
• Toon Force has a lot of division behind it. The OP advocates for its removal because it's tonally out of place with little to no instances supporting it. I have the dissenting opinion as I believe we should keep it; it's something shown multiple times in the pilot and has a few more showings outside of it.
• We don't see eye-to-eye on the Power Stones (multiple qualities for it). The first notable disagreement is regarding the AP of the Power Stones. The OP thinks they are City level because they allowed Sonic and Sally to mow down Robotnik's city-sized fortress. I oppose this because it's not something they do in one bust; they go around the facility to wreck it internally and do it over a significant timeframe. Additionally, I found that Nicole says they act as a 10,000x multiplier. If we apply that to Sonic's speed and strength, he gains Multi-City Block AP and Sub-Relativistic to FTL speed. That gives him the necessary attributes to do this. Either way, Sonic would receive an upgrade with the Power Stones. The second topic is on Power Bestowal. Idazmi believes the Power Stones would have this because they gave Sally identical speed to Sonic. However, I beg to differ because they amplify their flight speed rather than travel speed (a characteristic neither of them utilize on their own).
• The OP believes we should remove Power Nullification. He says negating the forcefield was done through AP, and he believes that reversing/suppressing some effects of Roboticization for a brief period isn't enough for it. I oppose this because there is nothing to suggest negating was done solely via AP. Also, I think suppressing some of Roboticization's effects, even if only temporary, would still be Power Nullification.
• A similar debate is spanning over Willpower Manipulation as well. The OP insists the Power Rings shouldn't have it when Uncle Chuck managed to break Roboticization's control while the Power Rings couldn't permanently. However, I oppose this because that doesn't devalue the Power Rings doing it, and it would just mean Uncle Chuck possesses Supernatural Willpower.
• There is a weird qualm about the proposed AP description. The OP wants to add a note explaining why Sonic doesn't just destroy Robotnik's buildings, but I believe it's unnecessary as we can chalk it up to PIS and move on.
• We are currently discussing whether or not information from the pilot is usable. The OP believes it's non-canon and out of place with the rest of the series. I oppose this because it received a release in Season 1's line-up, and the more cartoonish approach is due to AoStH's influence.

I am sorry if this "summary" was long, but I didn't want to commit a disservice to either side of the argument. You're better off reading both sides if you require a solid overview of the matter, even if it's quite long and repetitive.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Bump

 

[Idazmi]

bump

 

[Idazmi]

No? The blast is just the laser itself, so that's not even a contributing factor. The flying debris and a sound effect aren't specific to lasers; that could be accomplished through an energy blast. The fact we see nothing to suggest it was via heat is what kills the explosion argument. The scene treats it more like pure destruction.

A laser is by definition an energy blast.

No, I addressed that awhile back. You repeated your argument and ignored what I said. Lasers don't just magically waver in the air; you'd actually see my images address your waver argument because it directly shows one of them wavering without making visible contact with something. I'm rather sure lasers aren't supposed to even bend like that after they make contact as well.

I didn't ignore your argument, because my argument doesn't require lasers to "magically" waver in the air. Again, I'll let the actual scene speak for itself, instead of still frames:



The lasers only "waver" as they pass by. Why? Any laser powerful enough to destroy rock - or burn flesh - would heat the air around it enough to refract light. The laser is straight: the light refracts from the heated air as the laser passes.

That's not how a sample pool works. You'd be comparing the other examples in which it reflects, not the number of episodes. Also, don't try to put it in quotations as if it doesn't exist. It's a legitimate thing in statistics, and you should understand that before you throw "OUTLIER!!!" around again.

As I said, the only other examples where lasers reflect off anything involve reflective surfaces. That makes your example an outlier, because you have only one example wagered against an entire series. Focusing on one sample from a pilot episode against the entire content of the main series is disingenuous.

Long lore and power creep have literally nothing to do with why the profile is like that. The same is true for other profiles of a similar nature too. Look no further than Game Shadow's profile. There is no separate key for removing limiters here; it is in the same key as Base. You can't even make the same argument of keys here because others have up to eight. The most Shadow would get from dividing them is six. You completely glossed over the reason as well. They don't last long enough as boosts to warrant their own key in a VS Thread.

Long lore and Power Creep essentially define Son Goku now, and unlike Sonic, Shadow isn't boosted to a whole other tier by taking off his limiter rings, nor are his limiter rings powerful on their own.

If you know this to be the case, then I'm not sure why you even tried to use that as an example. You've described partially described the problem here; they do it by going around the facility and accumulate the damage as they go on. That's not solid enough to be a 7-B feat for fairly obvious reasons at this point.

Hardly: Robotnik's buildings aren't made of wood, concrete, and rebar: they are made of solid armor, so a Building Level feat wouldn't affect them the same by any logic. This obviously applies to city-block level and such as well.

Sally's combat and reaction speeds are relative to Sonic's, but her travel speed isn't. That's just a common thing with speedsters. Also, notice that this is a case of flight speed rather than travel speed as well. They're running while doing this, but they are very clearly flying. We don't have a frame of reference for flight speed for either of them too. Your entire argument is moot upon that consideration. I've already explained why we don't see Power Rings amp Sally; it's very blatantly stated that they were designed only for Sonic. It's not logical to assume that only Sonic can utilize the Power Stones when your premise ignores in-universe explanations.

Sonic's combat speed and travel speed are in no way related to Sally. The fact that she's clearly on Sonic's level, despite her "base" being far lower than Sonic, means that their speed is not merely being multiplied. If it was, Sonic would be leaving Sally far behind.

Occam's Razor destroys this argument. My interpretation is that Sally was amped just like Sonic by the Deep Power Stones. Your interpretation requires far more assumptions: it has Sonic acting as the conduit for Sally's power, Sally being unable to use the stones despite being left for her alone, and she manages to keep some of the power without Sonic because enough of it lingered. Occam's Razor easily sides with my interpretation because it requires far fewer postulates, and it's the simplest answer.

Occam's Razor is a tool, not a rule. If Sally is just being amped, her speed should be so much slower than Sonic's that she'd be left behind.

If you actually read what I said again instead of skimming, perhaps you'd understand why I did all of this? Nonetheless, I'll break it down because I hopefully have your attention this time.

1.) I am aware that the Power Stones are 10,000x the Power Rings' amplification. However, we don't have an official multiplier for them in-universe. If you actually read my comment, you would see I said, "The unfortunate part here is that we don't know the exact amount the Power Rings amplify someone, so we'll just have to use 10,000x." If we had an actual multiplier we could use, I would be totally down with stacking it on top of that. However, since we don't, we have to use 10,000x. The way we resolve the fact of it being an unquantifiable boost is through my previous suggestions: we can use "At least" or "likely higher."

2.) I'm not saying that's Sonic's full power either. However, we can't just bump it higher without a calc to back it up. Saitama still has a High 6-A rating despite those feats being casual. We have to evaluate characters based on what they've shown; we don't evaluate them based on what they could potentially do through fanon belief. Also, I wouldn't say he survived them without a problem. He yells in pain and starts rubbing his head from the impact.

3.) Can you give any actual showings of this being the case? The most basic aspect of them is that they are supposed to empower Sonic; we don't have much for them. They seem more like stat amplifiers considering they boost Sonic's speed too.

4.) Until you actually get the feat you're talking about calced and evaluated, we cannot use it. I don't see why the AP is being revised without a thorough evaluation.

"Can you give any actual showings of this being the case" other than the entire freaking series in question, in which it is CONSISTENTLY SHOWN that the Power Rings do indeed contain POWER - generic, usable power that can even power machines - which they transfer to Sonic when used? If they were a mere stat amp, they would be incapable of nearly everything they do in the series, like melting a factory, or being used as batteries in Robotnik's machines.

To say nothing of Sally and Sonic having different base speeds entirely, so Sally x 10,000 is far less than Sonic x 10,000... yet they are EQUAL when they both use the Power Stones together.

I never said Statistics Amplification grants flight; you pulled that out of your ass or just misinterpreted what I said. And if you're trying to switch this back to Power Bestowal (because this isn't even what this reply was referring to), that's a side effect of the item's usage. You don't see Catch Cards getting Power Bestowal in Mario despite them giving him Sealing.

You say Sonic did that, but there is no proof he did. The scene pretty much implies they received the amp at the same time. Your argument goes against the narrative as well; the whole scene shows the Deep Power Stones coming together as one for their power. This is meant to parallel what Sonic and Sally are doing. Your interpretation would conflict heavily with the intention here.

In what way? You're saying that Sally and Sonic are both being amped by a flat amount. The problem?

1 x 10,000 = 10,000
2 x 10,000 = 20,000

Sally's speed, reflexes, and demonstrated Attack Potency are ALL far below Sonic's demonstrations, by a lot. By your assumptions, she shouldn't be his equal here. She is.

Okay, let me put this on the realest level possible because you keep misunderstanding the problem here. We're talking about a show featuring multiple of the same characters, multiple people in common staff-wise, and released within a couple of weeks within each other. Not only that, the animation styles are very similar. None of the examples you've listed fit all of this. Disney is probably one of the worst examples you could use as well; 90s Disney >>>>>>> 90s DiC in terms of staff diversity.

This entire wing of your argument is becoming so ridiculous that I don't feel the need to reply to it any further. My point - that the same company can make differently themed and differently toned products - is proven.

Yes, it's a perfectly valid question. Forcefields can vary in what they can withstand. Actually, I asked for you to prove it was related to power in general instead of hax. Your answer was an unrelated rhetorical question, so I'd actually like something of substance, please.

The substance would be you providing proof that it's Hax, rather than accepting the simpler conclusion (Occam's Razor) that the forcefield was overpowered, which just so happens to be the usual case in fiction.

Again, that would be a limitation on what it negates. Power Nullification doesn't have to negate every single ability it comes in contact with. Roboticization has multiple effects; we've been over this.

An arbitrary limitation established by you, and you alone in an effort to enforce an interpretation that makes no sense in context. Power Rings do not demonstrate Power Nullification.

This would give Uncle Chuck Supernatural Willpower; it wouldn't discredit the Power Rings reverting Willpower Manipulation. If you're implying normal willpower can overcome the effects, then I want you to explain the millions of subservient Mobians still under Robotnik's rule. The answer is that Uncle Chuck is a special case. Temporary =/= not reverting it.

Uncle Chuck has "Supernatural Willpower"? He spent ten years under Robotnik's total control until the Freedom Fighters rescued him and restored his faculties the first time, without his willing input at all. He only overcame the Roboticizer on his own AFTER that first assisted, temporary recovery. He's a special case because he was assisted, not because he has special mental strength. If Power Rings had Willpower Manipulation, they would do far more than affect Uncle Chuck, since, according to you, he has "Supernatural Willpower", so they'd be able to control the willpower of basically anyone, since they manipulated Chuck.

I'm not getting into Star lore at all; I'm explaining my example because you keep attacking its validity. In the same way I'm humoring your Star Wars examples, you should do a similar thing. You're missing the point entirely. The point is there is no reason to argue it. It's Plot-Induced Stupidity, so you shouldn't be using it to reflect a character's stats, to begin with.

You're saying that it's Plot Induced Stupidity, but you need to refer to an entirely unrelated plot to prove your point?

"Thing is, this isn't hax: it's an outlier."
^You

You directly said that Toon Force isn't hax. Unless you used poor wording here, I called it as I saw it.

Context doesn't seem to be your strong suit. I said that in the context that Sonic has never - aside from the pilot - ever used Toon Force in battle, so using this feat on a battle wiki as a legit ability of his is disingenuous.

I didn't deny the idea that they wanted to make it more serious, but the problem I head with your argument was trying to say that the Toon Force doesn't apply because it's not tonally consistent with the gritty atmosphere. I gave you multiple examples of it still existing. This point isn't about Heads or Tails' canonicity; you need to stop trying to divert the topic. Either you have a refute about the Toon Force, or you don't. If you don't, then you should concede this point formally.

No, I said it doesn't apply because it isn't used in battle beyond the pilot, unlike say, Bugs Bunny. A sight gag at the end of an episode doesn't help you avoid an attack during the episode.

He has plot relevance for that one episode. I'd argue Uncle Chuck and the King are far more important characters to cover (that's precisely why they appear). As for Rosie, I'm not sure as to why she was even introduced. She would have been out of place in pretty much every other episode. I agree that they are less effective, which is why we don't see them again.

Than you for NOT answering the point: Muttsky - Sonic's supposed childhood pet - isn't so much as mentioned after the pilot, or during the time-travel episodes where he definitely should exist... so how his his existence canon again?

Damn, it's like you ignored what I said again. I already said we'd explain this through the pilot come first chronologically. Even though this may be the first instance chronologically, the first episode we see it in is the series premiere. There would be no frame of reference of what it's evolved from, so it'd be a very weird narrative exposition.

I'm not sure why you keep pushing the Sonic CD comparison. The only thing they'd have in common would be tone, but you'd be arguing a horrible reason there. Literally, every other aspect of Sonic CD would clash far more than the pilot does. I'm not sure what this hate boner is toward the pilot, but you keep making frankly unrealistic comparisons here for an exaggerated effect. It's incredibly disingenuous for the actual context and people reading the thread.

No it's not. The pilot's tone clashes with Sonic CD for the exact same reasons, and to the exact same degree, that it clashes with SatAM, to the point where if we're going to say the pilot is canon to SatAM, with all it's Toon Force feats, dropped characters, and zany atmosphere, we'd be literally better off saying Sonic CD is canon instead... and Sonic CD ain't canon to SatAM for a lot of reasons. That's your problem in a nutshell.

Inspiration =/= canon. I hope you realize that was never my argument, lol. I argued Heads or Tails was canon because it aired alongside the first season. There's a clear intention for it to be counted here. I'll repeat what I said for good measure.

"We meet the exact same problem here. The examples you're linking are decades apart, and I don't believe they actually have anything to suggest they're canon to each other. We're talking about an episode that is within the same series and ran as part of the season. Regardless of if the answer is yes or no, it doesn't determine anything for Heads or Tails if it's not a similar situation."

Your repetition is not necessary because it was already printed above. It was not necessary in the first place because it is fundamentally wrong: your insistence that Sonic SatAM's Pilot episode is canon to the rest of the series here is exactly equal to saying that the Boba Fett Short from the Star Wars Holiday Special is canon to the Mandalorian. It is the same level of ridiculous and can be dismissed with the same amount of dispassion.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Still watching the thread

 

[ElixirBlue]

Bump

 

[ElixirBlue]

Bump or past the CRT

 

[ElixirBlue]

Bump

 

[ElixirBlue]

Bump

 

[ElixirBlue]

Bumping, to get this thread through and done with

 

[ElixirBlue]

Bump

 

[ElixirBlue]

Bump

 

[ElixirBlue]

Bump

 

[Idazmi]

First post was Oct 2, 2020. Still waiting on Staff.

 

[Idazmi]

Bump.

 

[Idazmi]

Bump

 

[Idazmi]

Bump.
-_-

 

[ElixirBlue]

I want this one to pass so bad.

but that immeasurable thread did take up a lot of attention when it came to Sonic related stuff

and now Archie is going through an upgrade thread as well


Thank you @Idazmi for keeping this thread alive. Your persistence is very loyal Sonic Fan-like

 

[Starbrand_Fan]

Not to mention, the other Super Sonic speed downgrade thread that was going on.

Hopefully when the Low 1-C thread is finished, this one will get more attention.

 

[Idazmi]

Bump

 

[Idazmi]

Bump.

 

[Cropfist]

so what now?

 

[Idazmi]

so what now?

Apparently, all CRTs need Staff Approval. Thing is, we've been waiting for staff approval on this thread since October 31st last year.

 

[Idazmi]

Bump.

 

[Idazmi]

Bump

 

[Jared1111]

I’ll give this one a bump as well since it looks legit.

 

[Starbrand_Fan]

At this point, someone should just message a Staff member on their message wall and ask them give their input on this thread.

 

[Idazmi]

Bump

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

At this point, someone should just message a Staff member on their message wall and ask them give their input on this thread.

I messaged Ant to evaluate it or call another staff member to look at this thread

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write a good summary of the conclusions so far here? I can probably ask some staff members for help afterwards.