Sonic the Hedgehog Revisions/Downgrades

[Firestorm808]

Isn't Darth Nihilus High 6-A for draining all the force energy from a planet?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

"With a single thought, Darth Nihilus razed the entire surface of Katarr, including all landmass, oceans, vegetation, civilization, etc., as well as some of the greatest Jedi at the time. Referred to as one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history. Easily overpowered Darth Traya and almost completely severed her Force powers alongside Darth Sio. To be defeated, Nihilus had to be drastically weakened, have his Force Drain be rendered useless, and have Visas Marr restrain his diminished power with extreme effort, and only the was put down after a difficult fight with Meetra Surik"

Where does it say anything about being High 6-A for draining Force energy from a planet?

 

[Firestorm808]

@WeeklyBattles

It's in the first sentence of what you posted. As a wound in the force, he literally drains the force/life energy around him.

 

[PaChi2]

Unless Im missing something, Im agreeing with Weekly here.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Razing the surface of a planet =/= draining energy from it. Razing is destroying, which in Nihilus' case is almost literally nuking the surface of the planet

 

[PaChi2]

Im not sure about this because Im not knowledgeablr here but if the eggrobo was powered by High 6-A energy, then the robot itself cannot produce High 6-A attacks as it'd use up all its energy source.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@PaChi Exactly

 

[Firestorm808]

@WeeklyBattles

The calculation that it links is based on the vaporization of water.

The volume of All Earth's (which will be Katarr's stand-in per normal general assumptions) Water = 1.347 *10^9 km^3 or 1.347 * 10^18 m^3 (taking the middle value from the first table here)

Vaporization of Water = 2,260 j/cc (don't feel like finding it for saltwater)

Darth Nihilus' Force Drain = 3.04422 * 10^27 joules or 727.586 petatons

High 6-A

Water returns to the planet with the life energy

@PaChi2 I don't think that's how it works since Mario Bosses powered by Power Stars are rated as Star Level.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Fire No, Mario Bosses powered by Power Stars are High 4-C because they have actual feats of creating stars

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Essentially our High 6-A sonic profiles are High 6-A based off of Ifrit, who has a High 6-A feat in a form that Sonic never fought, and the Eggrobo, who has a High 6-A battery

 

[Agnaa]

Weekly's right about this imo. In demonstrating this, I'll respond to one of Matthew's earlier posts which Weekly left largely unaddressed.

"Wrong, it literally withered the ground of the entire planet and would have destroyed the world if the energy were released."

Withering ground (making all the macroorganisms living on the surface of the planet die) isn't an AP feat, it's a range feat for abilities (energy drain, death manipulation, etc.).

"If it was range it wouldn't be causing that effect, don't blatantly ignore what the machine does. If it just absorbed life it wouldn't have this effect. It ate the energies of the planet and sucked it dry."

It would be causing that effect if it was range. If it just absorbed life it would do the exact same thing, you tell that it's withering only because the life dies. Why are you assuming that "energies of the planet" = "geothermal energy", even when we can see lava (geothermal energy) after the draining happens?

"Also sucking the geothermal energies of a planet, or affecting the core would cause lava to spill from the mantle and into the surface."

This would require there to still be some geothermal energy left, especially since that lava is just spilt and not drained towards the machine. All this shows is that if the machine does drain geothermal energy, it drains an unknown amount from 99.99% to 0%. In a case like this imo we should go for the lowest in the range.

"Nevertheless, we literally see the effects on the planet and they're physical. Ground withers and dies on the entire surface."

Ground can't die. Ground isn't alive. Plants on the ground withered and died.

 

[Firestorm808]

@WeeklyBattles and @Agnaa Agnaa

Again, you're ignoring the vaporization of water.

Also, doesn't the Power Star profile vary from at least Large Star level+ to Galaxy level

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Fire Youre ignoring the fact that the Eggrobo itself never did any of that, the machine that charged its battery did

 

[Agnaa]

@FateAlbane's message (the one you quoted to get more attention on it) Why is this feat comparable to geothermal absorption? Affecting the organisms on the surface of the planet would usually not be comparable to affecting geothermal processes going all the way down to the center of a planet. The difference would be on a magnitude of the planet's radius. For earth, around 6.37x10^6, around the difference between the low-end of 6-B to the top of High 6-A.

This is also assuming that the volume inside the planet has the same energy density as the surface of the planet, a pretty ludicrous assumption knowing how hot the inside of planets tend to get.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The energy absorption itself doesnt even matter as the Eggrobo itself wouldnt be able to put out nearly as much energy as that otherwise it would drain itelf of power in seconds

 

[Agnaa]

@Firestorm808 Then we can calculate the energy needed to vaporize the water on a planet. Water being vaporized isn't an excuse for just taking the geothermal energy of a planet and using that.

Not to mention how vaporizing water requires adding energy to it. Taking into account the energy of the water vaporized would take away from the feat, wouldn't it? It's energy expended by the activation of the machine, not energy drained into the machine.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The Eggrobo never vaporized the oceans so thats irrelevant

 

[Firestorm808]

@WeeklyBattles

If that's the case, why is Bowser Galaxy level with a Grand Power Star as a power source and an Eggrobo isn't 6-A powered by a High 6-A battery?

 

[Agnaa]

It is kind of relevant, it means that we'd need to subtract the energy required to vaporize the oceans from the energy obtained by the machine, as energy was spent to do that instead of going into powering the Eggrobo.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Fire Because Bowser actually ceated a galaxy with the Grand Power Star. We dont scale characters to their power sources unless they actually have the feats to back it up, which the Eggrobo lacks.

 

[Firestorm808]

@WeeklyBattles @Agnaa

Actually, now that I think about it, the machine converted all the water (on the planet and in plants) into energy, not vaporized it.

Mass of all oceans on Earth = 1.4e+21 kg

Mass converted to 1.2583e+38 joules

Even if the Eggrobo used 1% per attack it would still be 1.2583e+36 joules till it runs out of energy.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Fire Thats not how it works, we dont scale machines to their batteries period. Otherwise we'd have things like tier 7 Splatoon

 

[PaChi2]

@Fire Thats not how it works, we dont scale machines to their batteries period. Otherwise we'd have things like tier 7 Splatoon

I dont see anything wrong.

 

[Agnaa]

So now energy means water?

I'm not familiar enough with the source material, do you (or any else for that matter) have some clips that could help demonstrate/exemplify this? I've seen the machine return life etc when it's depowered (there was snow left which got thawed when the energy returned, and since snow has water in it, this implies that water =/= energy), so I don't want to take that claim on face value just yet.

 

[Firestorm808]

I decided to dive into the Japanese version.

Life force energy is drained. Life energy makes Cubot stronger. At max drain, the planet would be destroyed.

With life energy draining, things get cold. The land appears to freeze over.

The planet would be drained of all heat energy dry. As a cold and barren wasteland, there is no thermal energy. If the machine is destroyed, the planet would blow up.

It is stated again that all the planet's energy will be drained.

As life energy drains, flowers and leaves wither into dust.

The machine is shown to be draining the energy from surface lava vents.

"The destructive force this planet's energy can bring forth cannot be measured!"

Energy returns to the planet.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

None of which matters as the machine that drained all of that energy to give the Eggrobo power to opperate doesnt scale to the Eggrobo itself

 

[Dark649]

Sonic has no other consistent feats rather than fighting Iblis and Emerl. The last things i might use are Sonic fighting a Dark Gaia powered Egg Dragoon and defeated Chaos 4 [Powered by 4 emeralds], who should be not that much weaker a feat done by 5 emeralds.

Lastly i disagree with Base Sonic scaling to Perfect Chaos and if all of the feats were rejected since Sonic cannot scale from being powered by something, he would have been Low 7-C, which is just too low for them and since i see High 6-A as fine, i will have to agree with Matthew.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Dark I...dont think you quite understand. The Iblis that Sonic fought HAD no High 6-A feat in general. The Iblis that Sonic fought wasnt fully awakened, it wouldnt scale to the instant surface wipe.

The Eggrobo powered by absorbing earth's energy wouldnt be High 6-A as the Eggrobo itself never actually performed a High 6-A feat.

You cant just say 'Sonic is High 6-A because its easier to rate him that way' when he HAS no High 6-A feats

 

[Executor_N0]

@Weekly That is Ifrit, no Ibilis.

 

[Dark649]

The Iblis that Silver fought was complete, you likely confused his forms Weekly the not awakened form is just the fire without a shape.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Sorry, names getting mixed up, im very tired :/

But the point still stands, the Ifrit Sonic fought wouldnt cale to the High 6-A feat due to not being fully awakened

 

[Agnaa]

"Life force energy is drained" Doesn't support the thermal energy idea, nor the water idea.

"With life energy draining, things get cold." It's hard to tell because of the translation, but "Plants, animals, everything is getting cold" could be referring to their experience as life, and readings of life around them. This seems to imply the "life energy drain" interpretation, or at least that that is something that's being drained. Thermal energy alone wouldn't make sense here as things are getting cold instantly, thermal energy wouldn't instantly make everything cold. It also doesn't seem to imply the water interpretation either, as everything's getting cold and freezing over (which requires water) rather than getting dry.

"The planet would be drained of all heat energy dry." The translation there actually says "They're planning on sucking this planet dry of energy". "of energy" being the important part, things can be sucked dry of some things without being sucked dry of water. This is neutral to the thermal/life/water interpretations.

"It is stated again that all the planet's energy will be drained." Another statement that doesn't explicitly lend credence to any interpretation, but it does make me wonder if this planet has some ethereal special energy, separate from thermal, life, water, etc. but some inherent spiritual energy to planets, as this planet's energy is described as having "exceptionally high purity".

"As life energy drains, flowers and leaves wither into dust." This scene seems to imply the thermal energy interpretation as false, as rather than freezing due to lack of external heat, they wither away due to internally not having enough energy to sustain themselves.

"The machine is shown to be draining the energy from surface lava vents." Really? At least in that single cutscene I didn't really see that. The machine was constructed on surface lava vents (which weren't drained for some reason), and the draining particle effect isn't in the air, and the cutscene doesn't have explicit shots or mentions of it draining lava, so maybe I just missed that part as it flew by in the background. But the mere existence of lava shows that it couldn't have drained 100% of the planet's thermal energy, meaning the exact amount it has is uncalculable, and should be lowballed as 0.

"The destructive force this planet's energy can bring forth cannot be measured!" There are exaggerated statements all over fiction, that's why we almost always go with demonstrated feats and not statements.

"Energy returns to the planet." I already discussed earlier, but mentioning again that the energy making frozen land go away implies that it couldn't have absorbed water.

Overall, in my opinion, both the "thermal energy" interpretation and "water energy" interpretation have multiple cutscenes blatantly contradicting them, with only a few cutscenes implying them. The energy being drained being the innate life energy of the creatures, or being some innate spiritual energy of the planet itself, seems to be the least contradictory things, although both of those have their own minor issues (why are Sonic and crew not affected while the rest of the life on the planet are?), however that issue also applies equally to the other interpretation.

@Weekly I'd still like to have some discussion over this, but I can understand if you don't want it cluttering up the thread. I at least find it interesting and worthwhile to clear up such a misconception if some people would use it as backup for High 6-A sonic being consistent.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Agnaa At this point its less of an issue as to whether or not the life draining is High 6-A and more an issue of it doesnt in any way scale to the Eggrobo's AP

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah, I would be willing to take this discussion to another thread, however some may say "High 6-A from this one feat isn't an outlier because this not real proper feat with Eggrobo might be High 6-A", and i don't want an excuse like that keeping the rating up.

 

[Dark649]

If Sonic is not allowed to scale from beings powered by something like the Eggrobo, Eggdragoon nor the emerald powered bosses like Chaos, he'd have no feats to scale from and would be Low 7-C or 8-A+ by the crappy scaling in Forces.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Dark I really hate to be that guy, but i REALLY hope youre not trying to argue that he should be High 6-A based on faulty feats solely because you dont want him and the verse to be a lower tier.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with the downgrades.

 

[Dark649]

So, at with tier do you want them to downgrade?.

 

[Agnaa]

From what you've said, Low 7-C seems fitting.

 

[Dark649]

Actually one might think that Modern Sonic is stronger than Classic Sonic because he says that he gets stronger every minute, Generations and Forces bad scaling shows that they are comparable in power as 8-A+, but i will not take part in the downgrade since i'm iffy about it.