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Sonic Revision Summary

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Sera_EX

Sera_EX

She Who Dabbles in Fiction
VS Battles
Retired
6,104
5,106
Summarizing the previous thread

Here's what was proposed:

Several keys for Sonic based on Era. Classic, Adventure/Dreamcast, Moder.

Classic: 8-A (His feat in the ending of CD. Apparently there has been a calc made for Calssic Sonic but I have been, and still am increasingly busy. Please mention it below)

Adventure Sonic: 7-B (Basically the current tier for Base Sonic)

Modern Sonic: At least High 6-A, likely 5-B (Can fight an Egg Robot powered up by a planet's entire biosphere, can somewhat hurt Dark Gaia by attacking its eyes and kill Perfect Chaos)

Azathoth brought up his points, which I will repost here:

@Sera

"Classic sounds fine, though his mountain feat may yield slightly higher results depending on how much of it he destroyed.

Adventure Sonic also seems fine.

Modern Sonic's High 6-A seems fine, too (I think I agreed to this, before). I don't agree with the 5-B. He specifically hurts Dark Gaia by targeting weak points and is entirely unable to hurt it, otherwise. Light Gaia is perfectly capable of just straight up fist-fighting and grappling with Dark Gaia, but Sonic has to hit its open eyes (which as everyone can attest, is a lot more vulnerable than the rest of you) to do any sort of damage.

I have some opinions on Perfect Chaos. When introduced, the Chaos Emeralds were portrayed at a drastically lower level of power within the games, not really having any Tier 5 or above feats until Adventure 2. I would be fine retroactively scaling Perfect Chaos to more powerful CE feats later on, but if we do so, then Modern Sonic does not scale to him, and the fight in Generations must be taken as pure plot. There is no logical way to make base Sonic scale to the combined power of the seven Emeralds. If we do decided to scale him to Perfect Chaos and treat the fight as legit, we can only really use Perfect Chaos' own feats or the feats of the Emeralds prior to Adventure, which iirc is around casual City level, and that is from Chaos himself.

Variable Super Sonic seems good, though I'd say his range should logically be "At least 5-B, at most 2-C" as opposed to "At least 4-C, likely 2-C". This is considering stuff like the Final Hazard, which was a planet level threat, and required two Super foms (one of which nealy died) to stop.

Unknown seems like the only way we can really go with Hyper Sonic."

I agreed with Azathoth for the most part.

There are some modifications I'd like to make.

First off,

Keys would be: Classic| Adventure| Modern| Excalibur| Werehog| Darkspine| Super (something like this)

More importantly,

Hyper Sonic is officially stated by Iizuka to be merely an add on for Sonic 3 and Knuckles, he is a gameplay mechanic if anything, Hyper Sonic and the Super Emeralds are non cano. It's best for us to remove it completely.

Also, this is something I forgot to mention on the previous thread. Metal Overlord's Attack Potency reasoning should be mention combining the data of all the heroes with the power of Perfect Chaos as that why Metal Sonic became so strong in the first place. This is outright stated by Eggman.

If there's anything I missed from the old thread, kindly mention it and refresh my memory please.
 
Super Sonic's variable tier works because of the nature of the power source which empowers him. Superman on the other hand is written by several different writers and thus there are inconsistencies and contradictions to his character period. Not just power wise but personality, and sometimes even appearance.
 
Everything seems fine, although the gap between 4-C and 2-C is enormous, I prefer the "At least 4-C, likely 2-C"

You don't need to tell me the reason for the variable tier, I read the other thread from beginning to end, I know what you're talking about

EDIT: I misread one part, sorry, I mean "At least 5-B, likely 2-C"
 
Super Sonic's speed should remain At least FTL+ and moving in a timeless void and attacking Solaris in all timelines is temporal resistance and hax respectively.
 
@Elione-Arisu

Yes Alice, I know. Should've put that in the thread.
 
This variable tier is from the emeralds powering based on emotions, in spite of them being explicitly weaker than certain sources (Power of the Stars) and being able to power machines, which would not be possible if either was true.
 
I agree to this though just would like to add super forms fought Solaris which is 2-B so I feel like their max is 2-B but i'm fine with 2-C for the most the super forms cap out
 
Ugh...I'll make this quick.

1. The chaos emeralds are not contradicted by being able to power machines. One emerald powering a machine? Really? Not to mention it's been stated all over Sonic media (games, comics, tv, books) that the true power of the Chaos Emeralds can only be harnessed by the elite few, which Iizuka states is our male hedgehog trio and Blaze (for the Sol Emeralds). Thus, this retcons Super Tails and Super Knuckles (for the games only)

2. Power of the Stars? This again? That game contradicts itself first of all, and second, Rush was released in 2006, it belongs in the Adevnture Era, Sonic Unleashed (2008) onwards (Modern Era) thus far as potrayed the emeralds consistently. The Power of the Stars being "superior to the chaos emeralds" does not apply to the Modern Era.

3. I'll be making a blog soon explaining how the eras work according to my research.
 
I suppose that this seems reasonable. However, I am concerned that there will be too many keys if we insert statistics for all of his forms for every incarnation/era.
 
This means that Super Tails, Super Knuckles, Imperator Ix, etc. all do not get the scaling a full power Super Sonic/Super Shadow/Super Silver. Just to clear that up.
 
Then what will happen to the super form-level characters without feats of their own? How can it be variable when inferior to the Master Emerald?
 
I agree with Sera and Seed. Sera has an expansive amount of research done and is going to make a verse explanation blog for Sonic. I think we should hold off on arguing about subtle details when she has interviews, self-evident theories, lore explanations, sonic encyclopedias (not wikis) etc. to back her up.
 
As I said before, I agree with everything but tier 2. It would make Sonic, and I say this unironically and without sarcasm, PIS incarnate. I love ya like a sister, Sera, but my stance isn't gonna change on that.
 
Ant has a point, with all of that there will be a ridiculous amount of keys, even if one of them is removed (even now, I find it difficult in VS threads when someone is using super sonic)
 
The Master Emerald has not appeared in the Modern Era yet. We don't know. It was only mentioned in the DS version of Sonic Colors. And having a variable tier doesn't make the emeralds limitless. The Master Emerald apparently has limitless energy (of course in context of this verse but even that is questionable in itself).

Sonic's continuity is very loose. Even the next Sonic game, Sonic Forces, does not fit anywhere in the timeline. It's a stand-alone game. Knowing this, I am analyzing everything as critically as possible to fit our wiki's standards.
 
Everything seems accurate but I think it would be best to scale Base Sonic to his highest feat in general(assuming everyone is fine with it) or his most consistent one, rather than seperating them based on an era. It would be less confusing and more consistent on other characters who powerscales from him.

I'm going to have to oppose on the tier 2, unfortunately. I learned the hard way how difficult and incohorent these statistics are, plus considering other characters also have these feats but were denied from it, it's wouldn't be fair if we give Sonic a pass.
 
Cal, I love you like a brother but my stance won't change either.

How...after all I revealed, is Tier 2 Super Sonic PIS? Any contradiction you mention I guarantee is before Sonic Unleashed (2008) and thus does not fit in the Modern Era.

Actually. I would make separate pages for each Era.

Classic Sonic (Base and Super)

Adventure Sonic (Base and Super)

Storybook Sonic (Base, Darkspine, Excalibur)

Modern Sonic (Base, Werehog and Super)

The character is portrayed very differently between these four eras. Especially due to Iizuka changing everything.

Name one contradiction for Tier 2 Super Sonic from the year 2009 to 2017....
 
Not what I meant when I said PIS incarnate. What I mean is that if this goes through, any feat or anti feat can be written off as "Emerald variation", whether it's tier 1 or tier 11
 
I agree with cal and Dino. Also, how could we even do this revision if we have no idea how to handle the (otherwise) featless super form-level beings?
 
Are these eras separated continuity wise or is it separated via something else?
 
They are separate by Sonic's characterization and progression/evolution as a character. You could also say they are separate by portrayal.
 
I still think that Sera seems to make sense.
 
I guess I have to be "that guy". Sorry about this but...

Have any of you played every Sonic game literally? Have any of you put six months of research into this? Have any of you any supplementary source on Sonic? Because Sera has it all as I mentioned before.

If you're going to claim Tier 2 Modern Super Sonic (2008 onwards) is PIS or an outlier, please explain why using a game that was published after Sonic Unleashed. Otherwise you're wasting her time, which is very limited.

Again, my dearest apologies if I came off as rude or harsh.
 
@Crop

You keep mentioning "featless" Super form level beings. Who? I just said only the elite few can harness the true power of the emeralds. At this point I'm sounding like a broken record...
 
But by seperating them based on era, it's going to make it somewhat difficult to scale the other characters in the series since some characters have been more active than others. Take Knuckles, for example. Correct if I'm wrong but he hasn't fought Sonic since Adventure or along side with him since Heroes (I think). If we are going to scale him to Sonic in all accounts, wouldn't it be difficult to prove that in an era where he hasn't had a prominent role as a rival or fighter since?
 
@Dragon

No one scales to Modern Sonic but Shadow, Silver, and Blaze. Villain-wise? Metal Sonic is a super badnik, he is Classic Sonic's secondary villain. He scales to him. Neo Metal Sonic scales to Adventure Sonic.

@Dino

I can certainly do that.

Knuckles hasn't been a prominent character as of late. Therefore he is quite featless. Using the Modern Era again, which seems to be the topic of debate here, Knuckles hasn't done anything of note, not even fight Sonic. At most we scale him to his showings in the Adventure Era because that's all we have. We do not scale him to Sonic in all accounts. Even if we did, that'd be a 6-A Knuckles in Modern as Knuckles' Super Form is no longer comparable to Sonic's (as ridiculous as that sounds that the guardian of the master emerald cannot use the full power of the emeralds) but then again...I don't agree with everything Iizuka does. >.>

Shadow and Silver fought Sonic in Generastions and have a WoG interview to back up their reasons in the Modern Era.
 
Having a lot of Keys is not an issue. Characters like Goku have a lot more.

Tier 2 Sonic isn't a problem if backed up by the narrative.

I fully support this.
 
@Crop

Seriously, at this point there is no variable tier. It's based off era. Technically they need to be separate pages anyway. So Classic Knuckles scales to Classic Sonic, Adventure Knuckles base form scales to Sonic, his "Super Form" in Heroes does not.

EDIT:

Knuckles works just fine with one page with keys though. Sonic needs to be diversified.
 
I'll even make the "Sonic the Hedgehog (Disambiguation)" page in order to organize all of his pages. So no need to worry about him having difficult to find pages.
 
Will I have to explain what I said in the previous thread again?

The Chaos Emeralds are servers that allow the user to harness Chaos Power through their emotions and thoughts. That's it. This is established since Adventure 1 and most Sonic media. The true power of the Emeralds can only be harnessed through positive emotions and will.

Sure, you can plug them into a machine and get some energy, but you'll only be getting a pathetic amount of power. And a villain can suck them dry of energy, but that still doesn't mean much. Perfect Chaos absorbed all the energy of the Emeralds leaving them grey husks, but Sonic still picked them up, used them to become Super Sonic and defeat Chaos.

This is because that the negative energy you can obtain through machines of negative emotions is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to their power. The true power of the Emeralds can only be harnessed if you have a will to protect your friends, a loving heart, etc.

And we will divide the characters in Eras because while all Sonic Games are part of the same timelines, there's significant retcons that make them rather incompatible. I.E, Adventure's world is completely different than Genesis Sonic's world, and with Sonic Unleashed the world was changed yet again.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Tier 2 Sonic isn't a problem if backed up by the narrative.
Click to expand...
Solaris got recently upgraded to 2-B, having at least 2-C+ to 2-B for Super Sonic, Shadow and Silver is too much and would lead to threads asking to upgrade Mario to 2-B or 3-A Kirby.
 
@Dark649

This argument was already used in the old thread (By you, I think) and it was shot down. We don't back away from an accurate rating simply because of fanboys. That implies laziness and a lack of comitting to what the wiki should be about.

If this will attract whiny fanboys, we'll deal with them. Simple as that.
 
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