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Did you write one of those for why omni man beats bardock? Because I'd love to hear a different opinion on the verdict that isn't just my favorite guy lost so db hates dragon ball.
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Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers
- Thread starter Maverick_Zero_X
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I'm not invested enough to cover this one. People are clearly not ready for tier 4 Nolan anyway since they're still convinced the Viltrum feat is at best a tier 5 feat which also doubles as an anti-feat against anything potentially higher.
I can post what I have so far for Bowser vs Eggman if anyone is interested though. I might even need help on the section on Light Man Eggman.
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Fair enough.
Side note: I don't know much about invincible since I've only seen the animated series but db said space racers gun can cause supernovas in a black box. And there was a visual of that happening in the show which is why I was fine with the verdict even if the sun disk and the planet bust sound like weird feats.
Sure I'd love to read that.
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Again, this is far from finished and kind of hard to read, but if I'm missing any important details, feel free to let me know
*This breakdown is designed to only include information which was available when the research for the Death Battle was concluded. It will also equalize stats accross the board while still respecting the power hierarchy of both armies to a reasonable extent. This is already complex enough without bringing stats into the mix. If you want my opinion, I think Eggman's army should overall usually hold the stat trinity when given equal lee-way, regardless of whether you want to downplay both characters to tectonic ranges of power or wank them to outerversal. I'll leave it at that. I'm going by Death Battle's stated rules for this fight where both have access to everything they've ever had at their disposal including one-offs and certain items that were debatably never theirs to begin with (Paper Mario items and scaling for Bowser and every type of Forcejewel for Eggman, as an examples). You may also notice that I'm a bit inconsistant when it comes to what I provide links for and what I don't. With the amount of time that researching this and writing it down took, I decided to only provide links for things that are either really obscure or that people have refused to believe in the past. I trust that this community is knowledgeable enough to understand where the rest is coming from. With that said, let's begin.
Experience/Skill/Strategy
Bowser and Eggman have both been around for a while. With Bowser having more games under his belt, he should have a slight adge in combat experience, even having fought his son almost 800 times for weeks non stop. Although this does pale in comparison to Eggman having been stated to have fought Sonic over 227000 times in Team Sonic Racing (having lost every time, of course, but impressive nontheless). Since Bowser's combat experience dates all the way back to when he was a baby, he should still likely have the edge though. Skill on the other hand, should be much more clear cut. Sonic's skill feats are so absurd that Eggman losing to him that many times should be expected, and it's insane that his greatest inventions such as Metal Sonic can even match the blue blur in the first place. Sonic is stated by Starline to be the only one who can stand up to Eggman with sheer skill alone. He can master sword fighting and ancient martial arts in two training sessions, view master martial artists like Knuckles and Emerl as "predictable", the latter of which having so much combat data of such complexity that it caused Gerald Robotnik's strongest computer to crash upon trying to load it. That was before he went on to copy the fighting style, skills and data of Sonic and his friends, but even after that, Sonic still wasn't impressed and continued to teach Emerl new tricks. Even after all of that, Sonic still beat Emerl in less than 30 seconds at the end of the game's story. This is the absurd amount of skill that Eggman has to deal with on a daily basis, and yet he and his creations are still capable of matching him blow for blow. The skill scaling Bowser gets from his own arch-nemesis Mario, as well as the other foes with a ton of experience under their belt is impressive, especially considering Mario is shown to be an incredibly fast learner in his own right accross a seemingly endless amount of different field, but I don't see how it could compare against that level of adaptibillity and prowess. Sonic's skill growth throughout the series consistantly allowing him to dominate characters who are biologically designed from his own data to be his equal but were only able to match him initially is in fact the only reason Neo Metal Sonic hasn't defeated him
Sage's hacking vs Bowser's memory bank
Bowser's memory bank is surprisingly really prominant in this match. Some argue it's a strenght. Others, a weakness. The argument in Eggman's favor is that Sage can hack into Bowser's memory bank to obtain critical information if not manipulate all of Bowser's memories to her whim outright. Bowser's computer brain shown off in Bowser's Inside Story is essentially a less complex version of Cyber Space, since they're both data storage for memories which are not meant to be easily accessible to outsiders. The biggest difference is that Cyber Space has infinite data and exists on a higher dimensional plane, so there's no doubt that Sage can scan and manipulate Bowser's brain just as she can with CS since Bowser's brain being composed of organic material doesn't remove the clearly digital aspect of it. Bowser does have a defense system against this: A drone that scans intruders, or "viruses" and fights them directly by turning into memory constructs of Mario and Luigi (named Memory M and Memory L). Setting aside the fact that those clones don't have the same fighting style, arsenal, or abillities as the OG brothers, Sage isn't required to fight them like Mario and Luigi were during the events of Bowser's Inside Story. They had to fight them because they didn't know how to obtain Bowser's memory of the lock combination, and they were getting in the way of finding it. Sage on the other hand, can simply integrate herself into Bowser's data base to access and meddle with any information she wants. No fight required.
Bowser Jr and King Boo's hacking vs Sage and Eggman's defenses
The argument that Bowser Jr. can also hack technology and therefore counter Sage is not a very good one. His only feat is hacking an e-mail of an extremely smart scientist's sentient robot. Not the robot itself, just its e-mail. Even if you were to really, and I mean REALLY reach and say that Bowser Jr could hijack the programming of Eggman's best robots, he can easily use a jamming signal to revert them back to their base programming, which is undeniably faster than hacking into them in the first place. The same applies to King Boo, more or less. His capabillities in that regard are even more ill defined. He meddled with a teleporter to change the trajectory of Luigi's teleportation as a stream of data. To say he could also control Eggman's machines or manipulate Sage is pure speculation built on a no-limits fallacy.
Item theft
Bowser, Kamek, Bowser Jr., and even regular Boos have methods of stealing items. Most often right out of the hammerspaces of their opponent. This is a frequently brought up argument in Bowser's favor, as it allows him to potentially steal Eggman's trump cards and maybe even use them against him. How does Eggman counter this? For starters, Forcejewels. Eggman is the one character in Sonic Shuffle who has the easiest access to them, since he is ultimately the one handing them out to the players in the game, and he's shown making use of them on two occasions. Blockite prevents the theft of items from his personal hammerspace. We know this would work due its resistance of the other Forcejewels' effects + verse equalization. Thief's Eye and Deletite allows him to steal or destroy items from his opponents' hammerspaces. Even without them, Eggman has his own methods of hammerspace manip, whether that's replacing your items with useless cards or straight up pickpocketing you with no gadget of his own. He also has traps in his bases that can erupt from the ground and do it for him. Due to having copied Sonic (who can also steal weapons from your hammerspace and use them against you) and Eggman's data, Neo Metal Sonic should be able of pulling off hammerspace theft as well without even needing to copy Bowser's troops. Boos may be plentyful ghost thieves, but so are Jade Ghosts (albeit less numerous). In fact, even if Boos had layered intangibillity, they could still be captured and contained the same way Eggman does with Wisps such as the Jade Ghost, who can't escape them despite being able to phase through characters with NPI. Forcejewels are even shown to emit a blinding light against anyone who tries to pick-pocket the user, which would be doubly effective on Boos specifically due to their consistant light weakness outside of playable spin-off appearences. The reason I went so in dept when it comes to Eggman's item theft and not Bowser's is to hammer home the point that for as commonly as item theft may be listed as a solid win con for Bowser, it's not as reliable as it seems. Eggman can resist it and do it right back. He may have more to gain from it too, since Eggman's best items have specific pre-requisits for use that only a few characters in the verse can fullfill. For example, Phantom Rubies can only be activated by those with a strong enough will and can only be used by those who first activated it. This brings us to our next category.
Wonder Flowers vs Phantom Rubies
Wonder Flowers, used most effectively by Bowser and Bowser Jr, are reality warping power-ups which can, most notably, transmutate one's self or others into all kinds of creatures with different strenghts and limitations, usually easily killed fodder (this is layered and has a large area of effect, theoridically universal going by Bowser's statement), resurrect dead beings, modify simple abillities, and cause those in its area of effect to sing and dance (broadway force, not combat applicable since Mario enemies like Koopas are already known for dancing to the beat of the background music naturally, and certain enemies are explcitely shown to be able to continue to fight just as effectively as before while under its effect).
The Phantom Ruby, primarily used by Heavy King, Infinite, and Dr. Eggman (who's enhanced Phantom Ruby protype will be tackled later), can nullify invulnerabillity, manipulate gravity, and create endless pocket realities cut off from all dimensions and BFR opponents to it. It can also ensure that its attacks are only "real" to whoever their user wants them to be, hence how Infinite was going to drop an entire sun on the battlefield that would annihilate the resistance while still leaving Eggman and his army unharmed.
Both can create various constructs, manipulate size, duplicate the user, and amplfiy statistics. One difference when it comes to their unique abillities relates to their users. Every abillity I listed for the Phantom Ruby are abillities its users have shown to resort to during battle. While we know Wonder Bowser and his son should be able to use every abillity the Wonder Flowers have displayed, they have never resorted to any to the most useful ones I listed in order to get an upper hand in battle. The same can't be said for Heavy King, Eggman, and especially Infinite, who all use thier best hax in character. Another difference, as hinted in the previous section, is how their opponents can nullify or prepare for them. Wonder Flowers are living things that derive their power from the Earth. Meanwhile, Eggman's extractor is literally designed to drain the Earth and its organic inhabitants of their power in order to amplify his troops with the absorbed energy. He would use it regardless of whether or not he knows about what the Wonder Flowers can do and without even knowing that he completely countered them. Once it is used succesfully, not only would the Wonder Flowers and most of Bowser's troops be drained of their power, but Eggman's forces could gain said power for themselves. And destroying the Extractor before it pulls this off is a bad idea, since doing so would cause an energy imbalance that results in the entire planet being pulverized without a trace, which would leave no world left for the Flowers to power themselves anyway. So the Extractor is a hard counter for the Wonder Flowers, but does Bowser have a similar counter for Phantom Rubies? Well, he does have item theft, but we already went over how Eggman counters that with his own methods, and that Bowser wouldn't even be able to use the Ruby's abillities even if he did get his hands on it. Hell, he has very few means of being made aware of the threat the Ruby poses before it's too late because the Phantom Ruby resists information analysis. So what then? He perhaps could create an army of clones to overwhelm Eggman's forces and still steal his equipment with sheer numbers... but all this time I haven't even been accounting for the Phantom Rubies' biggest trump card: They can do the exact same thing. This deserves a category all of its own, so let's dive into it:
Cloning
Bowser has multiple methods of creating clones to reinforce his army with more power, numbers, and hax. Most of those methods create either implcitely or explicitely imperfect clones. The one exception is the Bubble Machine, which can create clones seemingly indistinguishable from the original. Problem is, it can easily be hijacked by hacking or the magnetic field manipulation of Phantom Ruby Zavok clones. As a side note, mind control wouldn't work as an option to turn Zavok's technology manipulation against Eggman because Zavok has resisted the mind controlling effect of Starline's glove, and any Phantom Ruby clone can be poofed away and replaced by their summoner anyway, so they can't really be turned against their user. Phantom Ruby clones are explicitely stated to be as formidable as the originals. Infinite can create whole armies of them and Eggman's Death Egg Robot can create even more. Eggman's flying saucer can also create Mirror Fighters with one quick tractor beam to its target. Those Mirror Fighters show off the same stats, skills, fighting style, and even weapons as the original. So while Bowser has a larger quantity of ways to create clones, Eggman's methods are superior in quality and reliabillity.
Plot Manipulation, Data/Concept Destruction, ect.
Bowser and Eggman both have very controversial hax. How legitimate is it, and how does it compare to one another? Bowser has shown some level of plot/fate manipulation on two occasions in the Paper Mario games. The exact mechanics and limitations of this abillity are unclear, especially since he only uses it twice. Let's be generous and assume that Bowser could, and would manipulate the plot of this Death Battle towards his victory. Giving Eggman equal lee-way, can he do anything about it? Well for starters, you can argue that Metal Sonic should resist it about as easily as you can argue Bowser should have it in a combat applicable sense.
Neo Metal Sonic should have all of Sonic's abillities. The same Sonic who was written into the story of the Arabian Nights. Those written into the story have it become their fate. This is a canon mechanic within the Arabian Nights reality, with Sonic's fate specifically being to bear the ring and be killed as a sacrifice. He defied this fate by not only surviving, but by being the catalyst the Shara's decision to bear the ring, and saving her life as well. Later on, in Sonic Frontiers, Super Sonic was stated to "break the chains of fate" by defeating The End, who's "attunement is ruling of fate on everything in the universe". On top of this, those who can tap into the full power of the 7 Chaos Emeralds (and Time Eater) also have a controversial and busted abillity. Mephiles and Iblis were able to use them to destroy the entire cosmology, including the aforementionned Arabian Nights, Maginary World, and Cyber Space, which would give Super Neo Metal Sonic at his peak (and Supreme) access to destruction of plot, concepts, and fundemental information. He, Supreme, (and potentially Light Man Eggman) would have a resistance to those as well. Want to argue that the conclusion that any Sonic character should have those powers is a reach? The same goes for Bowser's plot manip. Want to argue that they never use it in-character (despite the fact that in their case, it just comes as a by-product of their AP and that they should resist it due to Chaos energy being a universal energy system)? The same goes for Bowser's plot manip. Want to grant both sides these busted abillities? Then the most reasonable outcome is Super Neo Metal Sonic resisting Bowser's plot manipulation and decimating him on a conceptual/informational level (facilitated by his invulnerabillity, speed amps, and resistances listed below). My point is that those busted controversial abillities are either a non-factor or a point in Eggman's favor, as long as you give both sides what I believe to be equal lee-way to work with.
Stat Amps and Reductions
Not talking about trnasformations here. Just amps to their base states. Kamek can increase the size of fodder minions to the point that they become a challenge for members of the main cast, such as Yoshi. Bowser can use his Minimizer to shrink members of the main cast to the point that fodder minions, again, become a challenge. The severity of the stat changes caused by these depends on how wide the gap actually is between the main cast and Bowser's fodder troops. For what it's worth, we do have plenty of evidence to prove that at least certain Goomba, Koopa, Dry Bones, ect. individuals can scale to the likes of Mario normally through spin-off games and some clues in more mainline entries as well, much like how Modern Badniks can somewhat contend with Sonic in IDW and with clues from Sonic Colors. Eggman does have beams in his Death Egg to shrink foes as well, or counter the effects of shrinking, but his real equivalant lies in his Egg Mobile's abillity to enlarge characters to the point that they can one-shot and flatten previously comparable opponents. Other than that, both have
How can Metal Sonic be countered? Let's go through Bowser's hax and find ways
Transmutation: Resisted via the bio-data of characters who can smash right through Blue Cubes, an act which normally results in being converted into Blue Rings. The same characters have also withstood Chaotix recital which should classify as a transmutating move. The enemies affected by it die and rings are manifested where they used to be the instant before. It's not like Team Chaotix has shown the abillity to create rings or that making badniks drop rings is a game mechanic. The evidence for Chaotix recital being transmutation is ultimately no different from some of Mario's own transmutation methods.
Layered transmutation (Wonder Flowers): Chaos Emeralds can completely negate and even cure the Metal Virus, a method of transmutation which even affects the characters with the resistances listed above. Just holding a Chaos Emerald should allow Metal Sonic to resist layered transmutation, and his Super form is definitely safe as a result. You can even argue that Chaos energy grants the user 3 layers of transmutation resistance due to how the virus adapted to affect characters who could previously resisted it but could never overcome the Chaos Emeralds' resistance. I don't want to go there since this is long enough as it is.
Petrification (which even works on Mario although he can quickly break free): Resisted via Sonic's bio-data, who broke free from petrification in Secret Rings just as Mario did against the Koopa Clown Car.
Anti-matter: Resisted via Shadow's bio-data, who resisted Diablon's anti-matter canon.
Sealing: Resisted via Shadow's bio-data, which allowed Mephiles to break free from being sealed in the scepter of darkness.
Layered sealing (debatable): King Boo sealed Mario in a painting, the same Mario who later resisted the sealing effect of Black Ooze. This is debatable since Mario never displayed this resistance before King Boo sealed him, so we can't know for sure if he had it at the time. The same logic can be applied to Metal Sonic anyway. He copied Sonic' bio-data prior to the events of Frontiers, wherein he breaks free from being sealed in Cyber-Space, a 5D realm that could seal The End. Sonic's feat was even described as "doing the impossible". So even if we want to argue that King Boo's sealing is layered, Metal Sonic would be able to break free from sealing of an infinitely greater potency by the same logic.
Posession: Resisted. Not only has Metal Sonic copied the data from characters who resisted posession from Dark Gaia, but the Boos have only been shown controlling otherwise innanimate objects. There's no proof they could posess a robot with the level of sentience and lifting strenght that Metal Sonic has. Their weakness to light consistantly shown (except in spin off appearences where they need to be playable in every environment,) make them unsustainable anyway (their weakness to unnatural light specifically is pretty consistant even accross the spin-offs). But even if they could somehow posess base Neo Metal, the passive offense of his glowing Super form aura would make it impossible for them to get close without being destroyed, much like when they try to approach Mario with a starman.
Mind control: Resisted. Made a lot more explcit with the inclusion of Sonic Chronicles, wherein Sonic easily resisted the mind control of the Voxai Overmind. Even without that, he could resist Dark Gaia's mind manipulation, and the Chaos Emeralds can even absorb the energy of Eggman's hyper-go-on mind control canon to save Sonic from its effect, which would grant Super forms a resistance to layered mind manipulation since 1: We know from the Mother Wisp boss fight that the Chaos Emeralds don't normally passively absorb hyper-go-on energy, implying the Chaos Emeralds did this specifically to counteract the layered mind control of Eggman's beam (they do turn thoughts into power after all) and 2: We do know Eggman's mind control beam is layered since it would have clearly worked on Sonic if not for the Emeralds. He was even planning to use it to brainpwash the entire world at once, including Shadow, who devellopped an immunity to Black Doom's mind control at the end of his game even though them sharing a biology made him more vulnerable to it.
Time manipulation: Resisted. He can move in White Space where time doesn't exist.
BFR: Resisted with a Chaos Emerald which can instantly warp their user out of Special Stages which, according to the game manual, are designed as traps. He also has easy access to dimensional travel. He should even be able to break free from White Space just as Eggman was able to with no ressources since he copied his data as well (including his intelligence).
Existance Erasure: Resisted Time Eater's erasure of time and space.
Reality Warping: Resisted on a universal scale. Sonic was unnafected by AlfLayla-Wa Layla warping the entire Arabian Nights into a void which he could shape however he pleases.
How can Sage be countered?
If Bowser's army takes down Sage before she can scan Bowser or his troops, or at least before she can run any simulations, that would get rid of a huge advantage for Eggman, but even if they were already aware beforehand of the threat that Sage poses, could they do it this quickly? Could they even do it at all? Death Battle's explicit inclusion of one-offs in this episode means that Sage would be allowed to pilot Supreme if necessary, who is at the top of the food chain when it comes to Sonic scaling. Sage herself likely scales to Knuckles, as she was confidant she could fight him despite her simulations and knowing what he's capable of. She also reacted to an attack from Sonic in promo material with a forcefield which is later shown to be tough enough to temporarily withstand blasts from The End. She can also scan the infinite amount of data in Cyber Space in a finite amount amount of time. I know I said I wouldn't dive into stats. The point is that even thought Sage should and would primarily play a support role for team strategies and anylize every strategy in order to find the most optimal one for victory, she is more than capable of doing more than that. Even without this specific role, she would still be a top tier in this fight. She would even be aware of any team communication Bowser would have with his telepathy since she was able to hear The End as it was telepathically communicating with Sonic. Combine that with the amount of knowledge her integration into Cyber Space grants her she's a persistant force who is fast, haxed and tough enough to keep herself alive long enough to ensure that, even if Eggman only had 1 win condition, he would achieve it thanks to her analytical predictions. Despite having just hyped up Metal Sonic, she is actually more useful than he is in my opinion.
How can Light Man Eggman be countered?
Hooo boy. Here we go. So, as we went over, Sonic has resisted reality warping and mind manipulation in the past. He and his friends have resisted transmutation as well, and have acausality type 1. Yet all of them were powerless to Light Man Eggman's Egg Field and its reality warping, memory manipulation, and causality manipulation. This is no surprise since we actually learn that this specific version of the Egg Field is derived from an infinite 5D realm. The only reason they ever stood a chance was because of the Chaos Emeralds. They were the ones responsible for preserving the characters' essence, and the reason they could come back to normal, and by the end of the story, Eggman had such mastery over the Egg Field that even Chaos Emerald users who had managed to recover from the Egg Field's effect were now being affected. It's only after Sonic had collected all 7 Emeralds that he finally had enough Chaos Energy to resist it outright, and nullify it. This means that the argument that "heart" is enough to counter the Egg Field is contradicted by the story itself. So what does Bowser have to counter this 5D multi-layered memory, causality, and reality warping hax which is essentially an instant win condition over the entire battlefield? The Pure Hearts won't work. Some people have brought this up as a counter, but even if "heart" could counter the Egg Field, this argument would still be a nominal fallacy. The better argument is Fawful's mind control gas, and how the minion spirit could break free from it.
Room for mistakes
If Bowser and Eggman drop the ball, get unlucky, do a mistake that results in a severe loss in their infantry or in their general chances of survival, who has the better means of recovery? This is where we get into revives and time manipulation: Bowser has equipment that essentially provides both at the same time with Earlier Times and Retry Clocks. The problem is that neither of there have any durabillity feats, so if Eggman obliterates Bowser completely, they are most likely going to be destroyed alongside him. It's not like Retry Clocks have brought him back from anything beyond being knocked out in the only game that they're in. Furthermore, causality manip make them a non-factor and we don't know if Bowser keeps his memory prior to the reset they provide, while we actually do know that the characters with type 4 acausality on Eggman's side (Super Neo Metal and Supreme) would, so Bowser is most likely going to repeat the same mistake that caused his defeat in the first place against opponents with an even bigger information advantage than before. On top of that, how is Bowser gonna time travel if time itself is destroyed? Time Eater is the only one here who has been shown to pull that off.
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This breakdown accounts for all Forcejewels, but not only do I think their inclusion isn't all that important, but I also think giving them to Eggman is at least just as reasonable as giving Bowser the Pure Hearts. That being said, Eggman should still have (likely layered) hammerspace manip and multiple methods of doing what they do without them anyway. The way I see it, his abillity to access and use Forcejewels as easily as the main cast make them fair game for optional equipment in VSBW, and whether or not they should be used for something like Death Battle is context dependant. In a context in which they're giving Eggman's opponents skills, feats and equipment that can just as easily be argued to belong to a different character entirely (Paper Bowser), I think it's fair game.
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That's already looking great to be honest. The only thing I can suggest is a section for mini bosses vs mini bosses and fodder vs fodder. Realistically these combatants wouldn't be that important but I just need to know who would win between a Goomba and a Motobug. Then again now that I'm thinking about it Eggman probably has more super badnicks that can brawl with Sonic than Bowser has Mario level mini bosses.
Such as.
- Three updated egg vipers with elemental powers (idw)
- At least two death crabs (One from idw and another in forces)
- At least 6 assault model death egg robots (I counted 4 in sunset heights one in idw and another in frontiers)
- Wait a minute can sage summon the other three titans and every starfall gaurdian... (RIP Bowser if she can)
- Three egg breakers (1 from idw imposter syndrome 1 from shadow generations episode two and 1 from shadow the hedgehog)
- A ton of egg hammers.
So honestly Eggmans mid tier troops might overwhelm Bowsers mid tier troops with all this and more.
Such as.
- Three updated egg vipers with elemental powers (idw)
- At least two death crabs (One from idw and another in forces)
- At least 6 assault model death egg robots (I counted 4 in sunset heights one in idw and another in frontiers)
- Wait a minute can sage summon the other three titans and every starfall gaurdian... (RIP Bowser if she can)
- Three egg breakers (1 from idw imposter syndrome 1 from shadow generations episode two and 1 from shadow the hedgehog)
- A ton of egg hammers.
So honestly Eggmans mid tier troops might overwhelm Bowsers mid tier troops with all this and more.
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Just skimming over it:
1. Personally, think you should add an explanation of how Eggman could get Forcejewels even if he doesn’t start with them, since people (like me) would probably point out how he doesn’t use more than 3 specific ones in game.
2. Prolly should address King Boo’s ability to interfere with Luigi as he was being pixelated through the data stream, as tech manip is a casual obvious counter to Eggman.
3. Bowser may not be able to use the items he steals, but the Ruby having no major durability feats could mean Bowser just crushes it and denies it from Eggman
4. Wonder Flower can also fuse with Eggman’s inorganic army, which would deny him of resources.
5. Time Eater doesn’t have transmutation resistance for its organic parts and only debatably does upscaling from Heroes mechs with the inorganic stuff, so it could be vulnerable to Kamek or Bowser or Wonder Flower
6. A lot of Eggman’s inventions like the Extractor or the restraint traps are location dependent or stagnant in position, meaning their effective range is limited
7. The Phantom Ruby clones fold in droves to the characters by endgame and have multiple instances of being one-shot, along with not usually using unique abilities (yes I’ve seen the latter argued).
8. Really focus on how Sonic is the one resisting the plot and not Shahra, and maybe also explain why the cosmology essence feats apply to all super form users instead of just being a result of Solaris specifically being powered by the Emeralds.
9. Apparently the Zeti resisted because the chaos emeralds amped their natural technopathy so they could keep the virus from corrupting them by manipulating the metal, so CE on their own don’t block the layered transmutation.
10. I’ve seen it argued that DG doesn’t actually have possession or mind control and it’s just making people sad or angry or depressed, I don’t agree but really hammer it in that it is possession potentially.
11. I think the Runners Brainwash beam was actually powered by chaos emerald energy. So the Emeralds absorbing it was just them re-absorbing their power as a one time thing.
12. People might be a little sus of Sage scaling with her attack power cuz the fight with Knuckles never actually happened.
13. I assume you’ll talk about stuff like cyber corruption, sandal transmutation, etc later, but the fact a lot of Bowser’s stuff is inherent means it’s harder to take away from him, so addressing that could help. Also might be worth talking about if Eggman’s items would be screwed over by transmutation, the Chaos Emeralds wouldn’t but the PR hasn’t showcased that resistance.
14. Maybe address their AOE cuz both could feasibly take out a bunch of fodder in one move, but Eggman’s is reliant on his weapons while Bowser transmuted an island on his own.
1. Personally, think you should add an explanation of how Eggman could get Forcejewels even if he doesn’t start with them, since people (like me) would probably point out how he doesn’t use more than 3 specific ones in game.
2. Prolly should address King Boo’s ability to interfere with Luigi as he was being pixelated through the data stream, as tech manip is a casual obvious counter to Eggman.
3. Bowser may not be able to use the items he steals, but the Ruby having no major durability feats could mean Bowser just crushes it and denies it from Eggman
4. Wonder Flower can also fuse with Eggman’s inorganic army, which would deny him of resources.
5. Time Eater doesn’t have transmutation resistance for its organic parts and only debatably does upscaling from Heroes mechs with the inorganic stuff, so it could be vulnerable to Kamek or Bowser or Wonder Flower
6. A lot of Eggman’s inventions like the Extractor or the restraint traps are location dependent or stagnant in position, meaning their effective range is limited
7. The Phantom Ruby clones fold in droves to the characters by endgame and have multiple instances of being one-shot, along with not usually using unique abilities (yes I’ve seen the latter argued).
8. Really focus on how Sonic is the one resisting the plot and not Shahra, and maybe also explain why the cosmology essence feats apply to all super form users instead of just being a result of Solaris specifically being powered by the Emeralds.
9. Apparently the Zeti resisted because the chaos emeralds amped their natural technopathy so they could keep the virus from corrupting them by manipulating the metal, so CE on their own don’t block the layered transmutation.
10. I’ve seen it argued that DG doesn’t actually have possession or mind control and it’s just making people sad or angry or depressed, I don’t agree but really hammer it in that it is possession potentially.
11. I think the Runners Brainwash beam was actually powered by chaos emerald energy. So the Emeralds absorbing it was just them re-absorbing their power as a one time thing.
12. People might be a little sus of Sage scaling with her attack power cuz the fight with Knuckles never actually happened.
13. I assume you’ll talk about stuff like cyber corruption, sandal transmutation, etc later, but the fact a lot of Bowser’s stuff is inherent means it’s harder to take away from him, so addressing that could help. Also might be worth talking about if Eggman’s items would be screwed over by transmutation, the Chaos Emeralds wouldn’t but the PR hasn’t showcased that resistance.
14. Maybe address their AOE cuz both could feasibly take out a bunch of fodder in one move, but Eggman’s is reliant on his weapons while Bowser transmuted an island on his own.
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ShakeResounding
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Surprise interim CRT between Part 1 & Part 2.
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The comment I left underneath this should work (even though people aren't gonna like it).
All King Boo did was change the trajectory of Luigi's travel path as he was being transported as data, right? I was planning to adress that, but this feat is kind of wierd. At best, it could allow King Boo to telekinetically move Sage around, but even that is a reach considering her integration to Cyber Space makes her data more complex than anything in Luigi's Mansion.
Infinite can tank Sonic's homing attacks to the chest. Where is his Phantom Ruby prototype located? That's right, on his chest. Classic Super Sonic is a smart fighter too. If he could just defeat Phantom King by destroying the exposed Phantom Ruby powering him, don't you think he would have done so?
You mean how Bowser seemingly willingly fused with his ship? That could be a problem assuming it makes Bowser's physiology mechanical as well. Zavok clones or Sage could just take over him. Extractor still hard counters it. Also, the Extractor still hard counters.
I barely bring up Time Eater, but his top tier speed and in-character time hax spam make him nearly untouchable, and I was going to bring up Eggman's superior control over time.
The Extractor's range covers Sonic's entire planet so it doesn't matter, but I guess I can bring up the ways in which Eggman can decide where the fight takes place for the restraint traps, but they're kind of minor.
Do you actually believe that or are you just saying people will bring this up? We've already debunked these arguments in the past.
I was gonna provide scans to support that Sonic's fate was the one on the line, and that he was in fact destined to die. Since that fate didn't end up occuring, Occam's razor would dictate that he was the one to change it. Idk what else I can say. Bowser's plot manip is not notable enough to be a huge factor, so the same can aply to Eggman's counters to it.
We literally see the Emerald energy coating his hand and shielding him, and this later supported by Super forms curing the metal virus completely.
Well then can you provide your reasons you don't agree? Preferably with scans? Would really help.
Was it though?
Eh, they can be sus about it if they want. Sage should at least scale in speed and should have means to avoid being harmed by him whether that's her durabillity or her intagibillity.
"Sandal transmutation"? The fact that Bowser's stuff is inherent isn't that advantageous when it just makes it even easier for Neo Metal to copy all of it. I can bring this up, yeah.
Also, Infinite's PR prototype should have the same transmutation resistance that Infinite has since it's right on his chest.
How and when did Bowser do that exactly? I'm gonna adress Light Man Eggman.
Thanks for the feedback!
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Certain individuals that are normally fodder have shown themselves to be on par with Mario though. They can even have good hax with Mario Party items and such, so they should be about even in this regard when you account for the fact that Eggman can get his mechs to fight on the field without needing to be in them via Egg Robos, Eggman Androids (Sonic Frontiers Prologue), Phantom Ruby Metal Sonics, and auto-pilot (Sonic Unleashed
MysticMania
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This makes me think. The Pure Hearts are powered by love, yeah? So technically, couldn't Sage and Eggman's love kinda summon the Pure Hearts to them?
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Just thought of a weird question. Is eggman allowed to use the time eater to recruit his past self for this fight. Because on one hand that could be considered outside help by death battles rules. But is it really outside help when that help is yourself?
Not that I think past eggman would be of much much use but this possibility is funny to think about.
Not that I think past eggman would be of much much use but this possibility is funny to think about.
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This is wrong. Zavok literally grabs a bunch of zombots and throwns them at Angel Island, with Chaos Energy being the thing that explictly protects him from being infected.
ShakeResounding
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It's okay JJ, Bowser's gonna win, no need to down the Copium and try to nullify any advantage Eggy has KEK.
ShakeResounding
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It shouldn't imo, just like Bowser's love shouldn't nullify Otherworld just because it's "love" and Sonic went on that tangent about it (which conveniently requires them to omit that the Chaos Emeralds could do so because their essences were retained).
If this is how either Bowser or Eggman win, I'll be extremely dissatisfied.
LukeChaosBlobz
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Strange. My notifications seemed to off turned off.
When the hell did Sonic Speed Sim become cannon?!
When the hell did Sonic Speed Sim become cannon?!
ShakeResounding
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I noticed this as well. Seems like the General Discussion is getting a little wonky lol.
Officially, a few months back afaik. When we saw Nibroc's comment about it being canon beforehand, we didn't quite know what to do. When we saw the second screenshot of Nibroc stating Sega gave him an explanation of the story (the World Rings are teleporting different versions of the cast to this "hub universe" of sorts, and is canonically why there can be more than 1 of the same character) and that Sega did indeed tell him it was canon, well, we took it more seriously
LukeChaosBlobz
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So is the Sonic in that game not the main timeline Sonic?
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Speaking of World Rings, i remember a blog arguing in favor of the World Rings having conceptual manipulation but it was never used.
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Which blog?
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I’m just saying, holding CE by themselves doesn’t seem to do anything against the virus. Otherwise Sonic could have just cured himself at any time. And the Zeti countering a metal virus by using their control over metal would make sense.
Alright then. I still think mentioning the possibility of Eggman recreating Forcejewels with the Phantom Ruby or smthn may help assure more people.
True.
Right, right.
That’s true, it’s more just if Bowser fuses before the extractor goes off, he fuses with Time Eater, and he manages to use Time Eater’s abilities before Sage can control it. Sage also can only control Titans when they’re defeated cuz of the outside influence exerted on them, so just dropping in Supreme or smthn may not work.
Alright.
The traps themselves are kind of small so it is important to highlight how Eggman can influence Bowser’s key players can step in them, I think. Same with the Chaos Energy Cannon.
Bowser also got that layered invulnerability with the star rod and his super platform, which could pose a problem.
I don’t believe it, just have talked with people who bring it up (namely cuz of the final army battle where the Resistance individually bring down 3 clones each with single hits)
Fair enough. Also could note Eggman having his own Erazor Djinn, who has direct plot absorption.
I think it is possession, I’ve just talked with people who say they don’t agree because no one goes “I must serve Dark Gaia” or similar language, they just get mean or depressed.
Well, the story begins with Eggman draining the Chaos Emeralds for his beam, and the end is the Emeralds re-absorbing the beam to get their energy back, so yeah I’d say so.
Speaking of, if you could add a showing of Sage being more intangible than CS ghosts, that would be a good point showing Bowser and his troops would not really affect her.
Kamek turning cards or stickers/items into flip flops with his spells.
True, didn’t even think about that.
Yoshi’s Story, it’s part of his 4-A warping
ShakeResounding
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Yup, they're alternate Sonics and co.
However, this unironically does affect the main cast because every playable character universally has the Spin Dash, Homing Attack, and Boost. Regardless of the different variants, they can all do this.
There's a lot to potentially unpack, but that's after what I already have planned.
ShakeResounding
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Mav's blog aiming for Type 3, but it was rejected before.
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Mav's, but I've also seen yours some days ago
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Sonic didn't have any access to the emeralds before being infected and even after, I am pretty sure, how could he have cured himself? Chaos Energy simply stops you from being infected, it's going Super who cures you. Zavok used Chaos Energy to not be infected. Zomon and Zeena were going to be infected after they lost their emeralds, so it's not their powers who stop them.
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Yeah, they would be infected because it was specifically their powers attuned with the Emeralds that gave them control over the virus, pretty sure they said that in an earlier issue.
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But Zavok still covers his arm with Chaos Energy from his emerald to not be infected. It's very blatant.
ShakeResounding
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It's stated by Zavok that their electromagnetic powers are amplified through the usage of the Chaos Emeralds and become enabled to control the Zombots, but how does that contradict a resistance?
They're commandeering the Zombots away from them, and are helpless as anyone else the moment the Emeralds are taken. It's not like they could get infected then control each molecular piece to remove it from themselves or something, not from what we see. Giant Zavok coats his arm in purple emerald energy and suffers no ill consequence, notice how he's only allowing them to touch where the energy is coating him.
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But Zavok also visibly grabs them with his unprotected hand before coating it with energy, and even then he’s mainly coating the zombies with energy.
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That energy is what protects him from being infected.
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Can you really blame me for thinking otherwise, when even the wiki says that it’s due to their magnesis.
Plus Sonic had 6 of the Emeralds available before going to Zavok, and hadn’t been fully infected, so he could have just used them there if chaos energy was the solution.
Plus Sonic had 6 of the Emeralds available before going to Zavok, and hadn’t been fully infected, so he could have just used them there if chaos energy was the solution.
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The wikia is as fan-made as this one. Plus they get things wrong, too, especially related to powerscaling. They are recently saying Shadow is just "strong enough" to bypass Neo Devil Doom's Chaos Control, for example.
Because Chaos Energy doesn't cure you, it stops you from being infected. Sonic was already infected. He needed to go super to be cured.
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Wouldn’t the Zombots touching Zavok’s unprotected hand still result in him being infected then? If the virus doesn’t get removed from the user by chaos energy.
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I don't remember the Zombots doing that. Can you repost the panel?
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Here
@Peptocoptr27 Don’t have to do this ofc, but maybe add a small bit to your summary outlining why the conceptual and plot destruction is good for all super forms, people I’ve talked to consider it just a unique interaction with Solaris and the Emeralds due to Solaris’ already established dominion over fate and time.
@Peptocoptr27 Don’t have to do this ofc, but maybe add a small bit to your summary outlining why the conceptual and plot destruction is good for all super forms, people I’ve talked to consider it just a unique interaction with Solaris and the Emeralds due to Solaris’ already established dominion over fate and time.
ShakeResounding
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Wait okay I'm a bit lost here since I was popping in and out of the convo, let's go back to square 1. Thanks for the scan.
What are you arguing? That the Metal Virus can be controlled in some forms outside of methods regarding Chaos Energy, basically, and that the Zeti's powers are the perfect example of this?
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My argument is that the Zeti, using their magnetic control enhanced by the emerald, could achieve a pseudo resistance to the virus.
Rn an argument was raised that the chaos emeralds and their energy was capable of countering the virus by itself. When I brought up that Sonic could have just used the emeralds to cure himself, User said they don't cure the virus, just prevent it from infecting you.
But then, we also have a scene where Zavok picks up zombies with his unprotected by chaos energy hand, and yet isn't infected. Which tells me that either the virus has a delay period before attaching to you (which seems kind of unlikely given the surface area the virus would have on Zavok's hand), the Chaos Emeralds can remove the virus with just one of them (which doesn't explain why Sonic couldn't do that), or the third option, the Zeti combined with the Emeralds specifically can stop the infection, which would make sense with their magnesis.
Rn an argument was raised that the chaos emeralds and their energy was capable of countering the virus by itself. When I brought up that Sonic could have just used the emeralds to cure himself, User said they don't cure the virus, just prevent it from infecting you.
But then, we also have a scene where Zavok picks up zombies with his unprotected by chaos energy hand, and yet isn't infected. Which tells me that either the virus has a delay period before attaching to you (which seems kind of unlikely given the surface area the virus would have on Zavok's hand), the Chaos Emeralds can remove the virus with just one of them (which doesn't explain why Sonic couldn't do that), or the third option, the Zeti combined with the Emeralds specifically can stop the infection, which would make sense with their magnesis.
ShakeResounding
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Okay, Square 1 achieved.
Following so far...
Okay, I get it now, and my answer may seem like a cop-out but lemme try cooking. Let's take a look at what supports each idea.
Delay Of Virus:
- This one is least likely, since Eggman analyzed it as having the ability to "instantly" begin affecting the exposed individual when he was testing it.
Uncurable Sonic:
- The tricky part about Sonic's infection is that Sonic was carrying a heavily-mutated and resiliant strain (noted specifically by Dr. Eggman as Sonic is running on the treadmill to keep his infection at bay). Not only this, he was in contact with Zombot Individuals who also carried a greater strain (Zombot Shadow, who was temporarily resistant to contact with them yet became infected despite his apparent immunity to disease)
- This is more of a cop-out answer, but this is the same arc that "nerfed" Chaos Control and the Reality Warping of the Chaos Emeralds (as they needed the Warp Topaz) and they just wanted the story to work.
- We know that Zeti gain absolute control over the Zombots, guiding them to wreak havoc. While it was assumed that was due to being able to hide themselves, the scan you sent somewhat proves that this may extend to making the Metal Virus benevolent towards them as a whole.
That's my take.
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I suppose I understand, but the argument that the Zeti can make the virus benevolent towards them with the Emerald leads me further into the idea that this is simply a unique interaction of the Zeti with the Emeralds, and that the super form is required in order to apply that benefit to non Zeti. But I suppose you can be A or B about it.
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Whisper's Wisps could also touch Zombots when transformed or using their powers, which also gives credence that energy lets you resist it.
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