Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[ShakeResounding]

What logic?

What I just said. A creation of Eggman has a forcejewel that Eggman won't give to you, so Eggman has more forcejewels than what we see.

Eggman giving this dream Gamma Forcejewels despite also screwing him over equally with the Eggman roulette?

Yeah.

Also, I'm sorry, but your emotional biases against Sonic have been made clear to me over the years of becoming good friends with you. If you don't feel a Sonic character should win, you'll whine and moan and stomp your foot because Sonic "should not be beating Discord" or whatever similar views you hold. Which is fine, but don't try and disguise it by shifting goalposts or pretending what I say makes no sense.

I'm certain you'd have a lot less hoops for Bowser to jump through, though.

 

[ShakeResounding]

My thoughts on this discussion:



Insert the/s here

No /s KEK

 

[JJSliderman]

Well first off I actually think Sonic should beat Discord low difficulty, but also I’m just trying to state what I think, I’m not saying this because I have an inherent bias against any character.

And I think that the logic of “this recreation of a robot Eggman made has items, so Eggman gave him those helpful items but also is against him” doesn’t make much sense to me. Moreover, Gamma is playable in all the levels and he received Forcejewels in exactly the same way as the other characters (I.e from spaces, battle minigames, etc.), and only the same 3 from Eggman that everyone else has.

 

[Theuser789]

Well first off I actually think Sonic should beat Discord low difficulty, but also I’m just trying to state what I think, I’m not saying this because I have an inherent bias against any character.

And I think that the logic of “this recreation of a robot Eggman made has items, so Eggman gave him those helpful items but also is against him” doesn’t make much sense to me. Moreover, Gamma is playable in all the levels and he received Forcejewels in exactly the same way as the other characters (I.e from spaces, battle minigames, etc.), and only the same 3 from Eggman that everyone else has.

Your logic would be fine but Bowser will be getting power-up combinations he can't even have across multiple games, so applying this restrictive logic to only Eggman is bad.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Well first off I actually think Sonic should beat Discord low difficulty,

That's not what you said in their versus thread before but I'll give you that one because opinions genuinely change

but also I’m just trying to state what I think, I’m not saying this because I have an inherent bias against any character.

I'm not trying to poison the well, but forgive me just a tad if it happens enough that I found it to be a pattern. This isn't me trying to attack you or your character, this was a genuine belief. I apologize for my accusations of bias against you, please forgive me.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Your logic would be fine but Bowser will be getting power-up combinations he can't even have across multiple games, so applying this restrictive logic to only Eggman is bad.

This. I have no problems limiting Eggman to a non-contradictory arsenal as long as Bowser is held to the same standard.

Whatever the standard is, I'm at least trusting Death Battle with THAT.

 

[JJSliderman]

Your logic would be fine but Bowser will be getting power-up combinations he can't even have across multiple games, so applying this restrictive logic to only Eggman is bad.

I’m not talking about Bowser here, this is just in general. But at least there Bowser has actually used or collected those items. With Eggman, it’s just assuming he has those Forcejewels because he has others.

 

[Theuser789]

I’m not talking about Bowser here, this is just in general. But at least there Bowser has actually used or collected those items. With Eggman, it’s just assuming he has those Forcejewels because he has others.

Bowser hasn't used most of Mario's regular power-ups outside of 3D World, for example. Or most Mario Party items.

 

[JJSliderman]

He is at least playable in Jamboree and has those items (which include a lot of the staples like plunder chest), or he gives out items like cursed blocks. I don’t see people give Bowser MP8 Candy or MP5 orbs for example, and they don’t give him the ice flower. Just double cherry and super bell and whatever other powers he’s used.

 

[ShakeResounding]

This is entirely random but only tangentially related to the above. If I were to make a Maginaryworld location page, would anybody be interested in helping me do it?

(I don't need the help, but sometimes I wonder if any of you are twiddling thumbs on the sideline wanting to help but not knowing how. Or maybe this is giving you guys too much credit and you prefer waiting for the stuff I bring lolol)

 

[JJSliderman]

Sure, I’d consider lending a hand if needed.

I suppose in theory he could just take the fight to Maginaryworld and find Forcejewels if he needed them with Lightman, but it’s still a bit RNG for my liking and Eggman’s knowledge on the Forcejewels is a little ill-defined.

 

[Theuser789]

He is at least playable in Jamboree and has those items (which include a lot of the staples like plunder chest), or he gives out items like cursed blocks. I don’t see people give Bowser MP8 Candy or MP5 orbs for example, and they don’t give him the ice flower. Just double cherry and super bell and whatever other powers he’s used.

Tbf we can also argue Chaos Gamma has the forcefields as well. Although tbf the item stealing is my least favorite of all the main arguments of this debate.

 

[JJSliderman]

Chaos Gamma has nothing to do with MW.

 

[Theuser789]

Chaos Gamma has nothing to do with MW.

Chaos Gamma has Gamma's data so crosscaling him to Gamma's inventory.

 

[JJSliderman]

So taking Chaos Gamma, whose only connection to the original is having combat data from him, and then going a degree of separation further by saying he has the potential to mimic a dream recreation of the original Gamma, all while Chaos Gamma never demonstrated the ability to synthesize items from the real world OG Gamma to begin with.

That just seems illogical to me.

 

[Theuser789]

So taking Chaos Gamma, whose only connection to the original is having combat data from him, and then going a degree of separation further by saying he has the potential to mimic a dream recreation of the original Gamma, all while Chaos Gamma never demonstrated the ability to synthesize items from the real world OG Gamma to begin with.

Better than saying Eggman can't use the forcejewels despite selling them... because he just can't.

 

[JJSliderman]

He sells a very specific selection of Forcejewels that never changes. At best you can say he finds unnamed Forcejewels in some minigames.

My problem is not that Eggman can’t use the Forcejewels like Deletite and Blockite, it’s that he’s never been shown having them to begin with. And the only Eggman related element to have those jewels is dream Gamma, who is playable and thus does not get them from Eggman.

 

[RedReaper616]

So taking Chaos Gamma, whose only connection to the original is having combat data from him, and then going a degree of separation further by saying he has the potential to mimic a dream recreation of the original Gamma, all while Chaos Gamma never demonstrated the ability to synthesize items from the real world OG Gamma to begin with.

That just seems illogical to me.

It’s actually just OG Gamma (temporarily) resurrected via Dreams.

 

[JJSliderman]

It’s actually just OG Gamma (temporarily) resurrected via Dreams.

Same deal ultimately, Gamma didn’t absorb Forcejewel data into his systems for chaos Gamma to copy.

 

[JJSliderman]

But if people did find a way to confirm Eggman took the knowledge and ability to recreate Forcejewels Eggman didn’t use or have visibly, from dream Gamma, into the real world, I’d be fine with it.

 

[JJSliderman]

I know people also said Eggman can just summon items to him any time, source for that?

 

[Peptocoptr27]

What are the 3 Forcejewels that Eggman sells exactly? Unless the Carbuncle and Geasdain are among them, then Eggman has precedent for using Forcejewels that aren't among the ones he sells, and it's shown in several minigames that he easily has access to Forcejewels as a general ressource.

 

[JJSliderman]

What are the 3 Forcejewels that Eggman sells exactly? Unless the Carbuncle and Geasdain are among them, then Eggman has precedent for using Forcejewels that aren't among the ones he sells, and it's shown in several minigames that he easily has access to Forcejewels as a general ressource.

He gives away or uses the swap Jewel, Carbuncle and Geasdain. He doesn’t actually sell you any jewels, he just gives them to you/uses it on you after you pick a specific Eggman card.

But he only gets to a Forcejewel once in a minigame, without using it, and it’s unnamed.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

He gives away or uses the swap Jewel, Carbuncle and Geasdain. He doesn’t actually sell you any jewels, he just gives them to you/uses it on you after you pick a specific Eggman card.

But he only gets to a Forcejewel once in a minigame, without using it, and it’s unnamed.

I do recall there being more than just one, and Eggman can create his own dream worlds, so the argument that he absolutely needs to go to Maginary World to obtain them when Force Jewels are also shown to be present in individual Dreams isn't exactly accurate.

 

[JJSliderman]

He can but those dream worlds, or really any dream worlds ranging from Sleeping Egg to Reverie Haven that aren’t inside MW, have never been shown to have Forcejewels.

 

[Omegabronic]

He can but those dream worlds, or really any dream worlds ranging from Sleeping Egg to Reverie Haven that aren’t inside MW, have never been shown to have Forcejewels.

both of these.....are inside MW tho? like.....it is said ALL dreams are inside there

 

[MysticMania]

Also, I'm sorry, but your emotional biases against Sonic have been made clear to me over the years of becoming good friends with you. If you don't feel a Sonic character should win, you'll whine and moan and stomp your foot because Sonic "should not be beating Discord" or whatever similar views you hold. Which is fine, but don't try and disguise it by shifting goalposts or pretending what I say makes no sense.

I'm certain you'd have a lot less hoops for Bowser to jump through, though.

There is no reason to be mean to someone over this.

 

[MysticMania]

There is absolutely zero harm in asking questions in a VS space, and no harm in someone believing differently than another person.

 

[JJSliderman]

both of these.....are inside MW tho? like.....it is said ALL dreams are inside there

Cyberspace is in itself a dream, but it doesn’t exist inside MW. Dreams can be separate, it’s just their conception is within Maginaryworld (also Sleeping Egg was made before MW, which used the quote that it assembled dreams rather than creating them)

 

[Omegabronic]

Cyberspace is in itself a dream, but it doesn’t exist inside MW.

......yeah it does? why would you think it doesn't?

Dreams can be separate

......by this you mean?

, it’s just their conception is within Maginaryworld

which directly said to house all of them inside of it

(also Sleeping Egg was made before MW, which used the quote that it assembled dreams rather than creating them)

.....no, MW is clearly older than Eggman and Sonic........there isn't proof that Eggman created Sleeping Egg Zone first before MW was a thing in verse

 

[JJSliderman]

......yeah it does? why would you think it doesn't?

Obviously the actual physical cyberspace location is its own separate place and a dream copy of it is in MW.

......by this you mean?

I mean that these dream worlds originate from artifacts and places that are not under the Maginaryworld umbrella, like the Reverie Stone isn’t inside Maginaryworld and the world isn’t referenced in game.

which directly said to house all of them inside of it

Reverie Haven probably has a copy inside Maginaryworld, but within Dream Team they enter and exit via portals made by the reverie stone. So the stone is more likely controlling the worlds inhabited in that game. Same with sleeping egg, Eggman constructed it with something outside Maginaryworld.

.....no, MW is clearly older than Eggman and Sonic........there isn't proof that Eggman created Sleeping Egg Zone first before MW was a thing in verse

I meant in a meta sense, when sleeping egg zone was made by the developers as a dream and then incorporated into Maginaryworld later, the lore was likely centered around it being created elsewhere and then being assembled in MW.

It also doesn’t change the fact that none of these other dream worlds have demonstrated the existence of Forcejewels, even after Shuffle.

 

[ShakeResounding]

There is no reason to be mean to someone over this.

That was my attempt at being objective, albeit my sarcasm slipped. When you actively give one franchise a harder time than the other in terms of how lenient you are in their arguments, then it's a bias. Which all of us have and is not something bad inherently. It's how he expressed his bias repeated times since knowing him that I was commenting on.

There is absolutely zero harm in asking questions in a VS space, and no harm in someone believing differently than another person.

Neither of which I was harping him for. He can root for Bowser or ask about the legitimacy of certain arguments for Eggman, but I'm not really going to entertain a debate as much when I don't see him apply that same scrutiny for the opposite side nearly as much.

I'm not going after him or anything.

 

[Omegabronic]

Obviously the actual physical cyberspace location is its own separate place and a dream copy of it is in MW.

ok? i never brought up Cyberspace tho, you did.........why did you brought up Cyberspace?

I mean that these dream worlds originate from artifacts and places that are not under the Maginaryworld umbrella, like the Reverie Stone isn’t inside Maginaryworld and the world isn’t referenced in game.

we have no proof for RH to not be in MW as all Dreams are said to be in, it isn't mentioned cause it isn't relevant, that is hardly proof of it not being connected, Cyber Space we have context to know it isn't in MW, the others we don't, MW has all Dreams inside of it, so they are inside of it unless proof of otherwise is shown

Reverie Haven probably has a copy inside Maginaryworld, but within Dream Team they enter and exit via portals made by the reverie stone.

which can be leading to MW in the RH part of it, as again, nothing says that RH is not inside MW, you are just assuming that to be the case, against Shuffles lore, for some reason

So the stone is more likely controlling the worlds inhabited in that game.

........wdym "So"? you didn't showed any proof whatsoever

Same with sleeping egg, Eggman constructed it with something outside Maginaryworld.

"Same"? again.......you showed no proof, no Dream is made "inside" MW to begin with, they are just gathered there, why would these be any different?

I meant in a meta sense, when sleeping egg zone was made by the developers as a dream and then incorporated into Maginaryworld later, the lore was likely centered around it being created elsewhere and then being assembled in MW.

again with this? dude, you have to stop trying to read the writter's mind, it DOESN'T MATTER what they thought at the time, we go by what the games tell us, which is "all dreams are gatthered inside MW" therefore Sleeping Egg Zone also is since it is a Dream..........you didn't showed anything that would make that not true

It also doesn’t change the fact that none of these other dream worlds have demonstrated the existence of Forcejewels, even after Shuffle.

not remotely the point, they didn't showed cuz it isn't relevant, but all dream worlds seeminly have them going by Shuffle

 

[JJSliderman]

ok? i never brought up Cyberspace tho, you did.........why did you brought up Cyberspace?

Cuz it’s also classed as a dream, and yet exists independent of MW within Frontiers, which shows dream worlds can exist outside MW.

we have no proof for RH to not be in MW as all Dreams are said to be in, it isn't mentioned cause it isn't relevant, that is hardly proof of it not being connected, Cyber Space we have context to know it isn't in MW, the others we don't, MW has all Dreams inside of it, so they are inside of it unless proof of otherwise is shown

If it was in Maginaryworld they would have mentioned it, or name dropped it, considering this is a game all about dreams. They had no problem referencing the Precioustone in a throwaway comic line.

which can be leading to MW in the RH part of it, as again, nothing says that RH is not inside MW, you are just assuming that to be the case, against Shuffles lore, for some reason

“Could be”, if it was inside MW why would Eggman not just try to take the Precioustone, instead of wasting time in this small fraction of the world? He already knows about the stone, and by the end of the game he has the power of Ariem, yet never expressed a desire to conquer MW.

........wdym "So"? you didn't showed any proof whatsoever

The stone is how the characters enter Reverie, the stone is how dreams within Reverie become real, Ariem’s existence and role is tied to the reverie stone and she never expresses her guardianship over dreams outside the reverie haven, I think Occam’s Razor would suggest that the stone is controlling reverie.

"Same"? again.......you showed no proof, no Dream is made "inside" MW to begin with, they are just gathered there, why would these be any different?

You’ve been arguing this whole time that dreams can only exist in MW, which I assumed means you are going with the idea they’re created in MW like the encyclopedia says. When Eggman made sleeping egg, he didn’t do it with anything tied to MW like the Precioustone.

again with this? dude, you have to stop trying to read the writter's mind, it DOESN'T MATTER what they thought at the time, we go by what the games tell us, which is "all dreams are gatthered inside MW" therefore Sleeping Egg Zone also is since it is a Dream..........you didn't showed anything that would make that not true

If Sonic had gone to MW before, why was going there treated like such a big event in Shuffle to the point it needed to be explained to him what MW was? Why did no one mention Sonic just flying to another universe for a single level before going back?

not remotely the point, they didn't showed cuz it isn't relevant, but all dream worlds seeminly have them going by Shuffle

All the dream worlds in Shuffle have them, because they’re all inside Maginaryworld explicitly. All the other dream worlds mainly exist in MW via extended lore and nowhere else in the series have characters gone to a location they explicitly name dropped as Maginaryworld.

Plus, even assuming that all dream worlds had Forcejewels, it doesn’t mean Eggman will get the ones he wants by going to a random dream world. And if he can, then the dream world tangent is pointless. But Eggman himself has never used them and has just seen others use them, without being able to analyze them thoroughly, so I have my doubts.

 

[JJSliderman]

I guess in theory Eggman could just make a Maginaryworld-esque dream world (probably with Lightman since the method he used to create sleeping egg has an unknown timeframe), run around and hope he gets the forcejewels he needs, or summon dream Gamma and hopefully dream Gamma is fully stocked with jewels, or dimensional travel to MW to get the jewels, it just seems a bit roundabout compared to Bowser who just, has used all the relevant items directly and thus can skip the step of acquiring them in the hypothetical DB scenario.

Unless, Eggman does know how to make them?

 

[Omegabronic]

Cuz it’s also classed as a dream, and yet exists independent of MW within Frontiers, which shows dream worlds can exist outside MW.

It is Info type 2 Dream, aka a lesser Abstraction than Magination, which is what true dreams are made of, so it isn't the same as normal dreams to begin with

If it was in Maginaryworld they would have mentioned it, or name dropped it, considering this is a game all about dreams.

Non-Sequitur, they not saying it proves nothing, it being about dreams doesn't mean they need to talk about MW, nothing here is a proof of anything, it is pure conjecture

They had no problem referencing the Precioustone in a throwaway comic line.

As a minor joke? Cool..........that has nothing to do with this, so i will ignore this if you try to say a minor joke is the same situation, or that it has any relevance here, at all

“Could be”, if it was inside MW why would Eggman not just try to take the Precioustone, instead of wasting time in this small fraction of the world?

Not enough range to reach it......you did saw the cosmology page, right?

He already knows about the stone, and by the end of the game he has the power of Ariem, yet never expressed a desire to conquer MW.

He only has power over the reverie, he is NOTHING compared to Illumina, who dream a higher dimensional dream all other are inside of, specially since he, again, has no range to reach her anyway

The stone is how the characters enter Reverie, the stone is how dreams within Reverie become real, Ariem’s existence and role is tied to the reverie stone and she never expresses her guardianship over dreams outside the reverie haven

Yeah, a special dream that houses several others, yeah this is already addressed, again, when are you going to make your point? Where is your proof?

, I think Occam’s Razor would suggest that the stone is controlling reverie.

Again.........when are you going to make your point and show the proof? You didn't showed anything relevant so far

You’ve been arguing this whole time that dreams can only exist in MW, which I assumed means you are going with the idea they’re created in MW like the encyclopedia says.

FALSE, i said MW gatters all dreams inside itself, you are shifting what i said to create an argument for, don't do that

When Eggman made sleeping egg, he didn’t do it with anything tied to MW like the Precioustone.

IRRELEVANT, again, when are you going to make your point? Show the proofs?

If Sonic had gone to MW before, why was going there treated like such a big event in Shuffle to the point it needed to be explained to him what MW was?

Cuz he only visited 1 dream world briefly and had no way to know it was MW at all? Nor did anyone could possibly know what MW was? Again, where is the proof? Your point?

Why did no one mention Sonic just flying to another universe for a single level before going back?

Classic era, no cutscenes, no detailed story, same happened when he just ran to a Special Stage in advance 2, no one talked about it cause no story detail

Again, this is pure disbelief of your part and nothing more

All the dream worlds in Shuffle have them, because they’re all inside Maginaryworld explicitly. All the other dream worlds mainly exist in MW via extended lore and nowhere else in the series have characters gone to a location they explicitly name dropped as Maginaryworld.

Again, they don't need to specify for it to be true, they don't say "we are in the Prime world" in every game, cause that isn't relevant for the narrative, so again, stop bringing up stuff that legit proves nothing at all, it is really starting to get a little annoying ngl

Plus, even assuming that all dream worlds had Forcejewels, it doesn’t mean Eggman will get the ones he wants by going to a random dream world. And if he can, then the dream world tangent is pointless. But Eggman himself has never used them and has just seen others use them, without being able to analyze them thoroughly, so I have my doubts.

Aka, he knows how to use them, how to collect them, and can indeed use them if he deems nescesary

I know you don't want to give Eggman anything due to your self admited bias, i don't hold it against you, nor do i think lower of you for it, but please just be honest with us and yourself, doing to rounding is....really not healthful, you should just admit to yourself, being honest here, i am worried for you

 

[JJSliderman]

Okay yes I’m a little biased, Bowser has been my favorite character for years. But I’ve also been a Sonic fan so I’ve been really conflicted.

And well, I can’t shake the feeling that Eggman’s method of getting Forcejewels is somewhat reliant on assuming he can create them with his phantom Ruby, which he maybe could but can only create Forcejewels in a limited amount of ways.

 

[Theuser789]

You don't need to feel conflicted, Death Battle will give it to Bowser.

 

[JJSliderman]

More just the general debate really

I guess I just sound really stupid getting worked up over a hobby idk, I’ve just been debating this a lot on Discord and YT comments when I should just relax.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

More just the general debate really

I guess I just sound really stupid getting worked up over a hobby idk, I’ve just been debating this a lot on Discord and YT comments when I should just relax.

You and me both, but I guess I have something to prove. So I've written a comprehensive breakdown of why Eggman should win which I intend to share before the Death Battle comes out. Bowser is also my favorite Mario character, my main in Smash, and the main character of my favorite RPG game. Although I strongly believe Eggman should win, and conaidering most people disagree, I end up getting into a lot of arguments