Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[Peptocoptr27]

who else will pick up all the useless Sonic Question Time?

I mean...

Sonic Question Time!:

Which Sonic character do you think is most interesting to debate with in the context of a VS match? Whether that's because you like thier tool kit, thier in-character strategies, or something else?

Personally, my answer would be Amy. Whether it's her Adventure era key or her modern key, she's all the fun that Sonic and Shadow bring to the table with thier speed amps, acrobatics, instinctive actions and more, except she lacks the more busted stuff that these guys have (while still having some surprisingly crazy stuff of her own). She also has more limitations in her arsenal, which are fun to work around. Not to mention, having notoriously powerful character from tier 4 to tier 2 lose to Amy is a lot funnier than making them lose to Sonic, Shadow, or Metal Sonic for instance.

 

[Snek]

For me it's metal sonic because of his variety from being updated all the time. You have classic metal sonic who is fairly lackluster in terms of abilities. Or the modern and adventure variants which are more intelligent and possess new techniques like the black sheild. Then you have neo metal sonic with a busted copy ability, regeneration and chaos control. Finally you have metal overlord who is everything listed prior and more.

Metal sonic also has a lot of one off things such as metal sonic Kai, that phantom ruby form and even a super state. I'm also pretty sure metal has copied silvers tk before so there's that too.

 

[Ovrhide]

but why would the super form be a power boost and not the full power of the emeralds.
the think will be either you get a power boost or you get a super form

Look my man.

I’m not in agreement with literally 99% of the Sonic scaling in this wiki. Me and pretty much everyone outside of this forum just find the scaling here kinda bunkers and just dumb.

But that 1% I do agree with is the emeralds varying in power, cause unlike the multiple hoops people here go through here for their wonky scaling, the emeralds have been stated in story lore to vary in power based on the situation the cast is in. I think IDW if I remember correctly.

How is that possible, my guess is the bigger the threat, the more someone is able to tap into the max potential of the emeralds. And the amount of power you can get from an emerald depends on someone’s will. So there’s that.

 

[omegabronic]

I mean...

Sonic Question Time!:

Which Sonic character do you think is most interesting to debate with in the context of a VS match? Whether that's because you like thier tool kit, thier in-character strategies, or something else?

Personally, my answer would be Amy. Whether it's her Adventure era key or her modern key, she's all the fun that Sonic and Shadow bring to the table with thier speed amps, acrobatics, instinctive actions and more, except she lacks the more busted stuff that these guys have (while still having some surprisingly crazy stuff of her own). She also has more limitations in her arsenal, which are fun to work around. Not to mention, having notoriously powerful character from tier 4 to tier 2 lose to Amy is a lot funnier than making them lose to Sonic, Shadow, or Metal Sonic for instance.

Silver or Blaze honestly, more or less the same reasons you gave for Amy...........i just like them both more lol

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I mean...

Sonic Question Time!:

Which Sonic character do you think is most interesting to debate with in the context of a VS match? Whether that's because you like thier tool kit, thier in-character strategies, or something else?

Silver or Blaze honestly, more or less the same reasons you gave for Amy...........i just like them both more lol

Silver no contest for me (Also Blaze would be an obvious answer from me);

He literally has some of the most busted hax of the heroic characters, is often depicted as a top tier in the setting due to having a super form and is in character a pragmatic fighter so he'll use the best win-cons in a battle however despite all his powers, abilities and hax he personality wise is such a total dork, he got robbed of the MC slot after 06/Rivals so is just kinda "there" in most stories (gets a hype moment then you have to wait months until Silver is important again) and as I mentioned before, he's the classic "potential man" trope he's ment to be on par with Shadow and Sonic in terms of everything yet he is nowhere near as popluar as either of them nor he is consistently shown to be as powerful as them (in recent years) also most popluar fan animations/works either use him as a jobber or a meme which speaks volumes.

It's interesting to me Silver has so much already to contribute in a Vs thread (can kill with a thought if he wanted to) while being consistently screwed over from getting a leading role in a mainline title for years at this point, it makes me wonder what a hypothetical "full potential" Silver profile would look like.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Silver no contest for me (Also Blaze would be an obvious answer from me);

He literally has some of the most busted hax of the heroic characters, is often depicted as a top tier in the setting due to having a super form and is in character a pragmatic fighter so he'll use the best win-cons in a battle however despite all his powers, abilities and hax he personality wise is such a total dork, he got robbed of the MC slot after 06/Rivals so is just kinda "there" in most stories (gets a hype moment then you have to wait months until Silver is important again) and as I mentioned before, he's the classic "potential man" trope he's ment to be on par with Shadow and Sonic in terms of everything yet he is nowhere near as popluar as either of them nor he is consistently shown to be as powerful as them (in recent years) also most popluar fan animations/works either use him as a jobber or a meme which speaks volumes.

It's interesting to me Silver has so much already to contribute in a Vs thread (can kill with a thought if he wanted to) while being consistently screwed over from getting a leading role in a mainline title for years at this point, it makes me wonder what a hypothetical "full potential" Silver profile would look like.

I want a game with him Blaze and maybe the Chaotix as the mcs but unfortunately that probably wouldn't sell well

 

[Peptocoptr27]

For me it's metal sonic because of his variety from being updated all the time. You have classic metal sonic who is fairly lackluster in terms of abilities. Or the modern and adventure variants which are more intelligent and possess new techniques like the black sheild. Then you have neo metal sonic with a busted copy ability, regeneration and chaos control. Finally you have metal overlord who is everything listed prior and more.

Metal sonic also has a lot of one off things such as metal sonic Kai, that phantom ruby form and even a super state. I'm also pretty sure metal has copied silvers tk before so there's that too.

I personally think Metal has TOO much stuff to be interesting. The thing you love about him is what makes him kind of uninteresting in my opinion. To each thier own.

Look my man.

I’m not in agreement with literally 99% of the Sonic scaling in this wiki. Me and pretty much everyone outside of this forum just find the scaling here kinda bunkers and just dumb.

But that 1% I do agree with is the emeralds varying in power, cause unlike the multiple hoops people here go through here for their wonky scaling, the emeralds have been stated in story lore to vary in power based on the situation the cast is in. I think IDW if I remember correctly.

How is that possible, my guess is the bigger the threat, the more someone is able to tap into the max potential of the emeralds. And the amount of power you can get from an emerald depends on someone’s will. So there’s that.

You call 99% of Sonic scaling here to be dumb and bunkers. Yet you don't even know why the emeralds vary in power or what the source for it is despite the fact that it's part of the 1% you apparantly agree with. You "guess" that this info comes from IDW and that it's because the power of a Super form depends on the level of the threat they're facing. In actuality, we originally learned this info in SA1, with IDW only acting as support, and the mechanics of the variable tier are already throughly explained here, so you have no reason to even speculate in the first place. I would tell you to make a CRT if you really think our Sonic scaling is so stupid, but you've already shown yourself to be uninformed on the topic, so I'll honestly be very surprised if it turns out not to be a waste of everyone's time.

 

[MysticMania]

I mean...

Sonic Question Time!:

Which Sonic character do you think is most interesting to debate with in the context of a VS match? Whether that's because you like thier tool kit, thier in-character strategies, or something else?

Personally, my answer would be Amy. Whether it's her Adventure era key or her modern key, she's all the fun that Sonic and Shadow bring to the table with thier speed amps, acrobatics, instinctive actions and more, except she lacks the more busted stuff that these guys have (while still having some surprisingly crazy stuff of her own). She also has more limitations in her arsenal, which are fun to work around. Not to mention, having notoriously powerful character from tier 4 to tier 2 lose to Amy is a lot funnier than making them lose to Sonic, Shadow, or Metal Sonic for instance.

Dr. Starline, or Jet, maybe. Starline's arsenal is really interesting, and, minus discussing if he ""should/should not"" have the Emeralds in his arsenal, I like discussing his abilities and personality.

Jet is fun, because it just means you can talk about Sonic Riders and birds, so, it is cool. Gravity manipulation, too.

 

[Alexander]

Look my man.

I’m not in agreement with literally 99% of the Sonic scaling in this wiki. Me and pretty much everyone outside of this forum just find the scaling here kinda bunkers and just dumb.

But that 1% I do agree with is the emeralds varying in power, cause unlike the multiple hoops people here go through here for their wonky scaling, the emeralds have been stated in story lore to vary in power based on the situation the cast is in. I think IDW if I remember correctly.

How is that possible, my guess is the bigger the threat, the more someone is able to tap into the max potential of the emeralds. And the amount of power you can get from an emerald depends on someone’s will. So there’s that.

One wiki disagrees, i mentioned múltiple times

 

[omegabronic]

I want a game with him Blaze and maybe the Chaotix as the mcs but unfortunately that probably wouldn't sell well

IDW Mini Series: "Silver and Blaze"

No need to say to explain more, do i?

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Dr. Starline, or Jet, maybe. Starline's arsenal is really interesting, and, minus discussing if he ""should/should not"" have the Emeralds in his arsenal, I like discussing his abilities and personality.

Jet is fun, because it just means you can talk about Sonic Riders and birds, so, it is cool. Gravity manipulation, too.

Interesting answers. If we're restricting our answers to these more obscure characters, mine would be Black Doom or Mecha Sonic.

 

[Theuser789]

I mean...

Sonic Question Time!:

Which Sonic character do you think is most interesting to debate with in the context of a VS match? Whether that's because you like thier tool kit, thier in-character strategies, or something else?

Personally, my answer would be Amy. Whether it's her Adventure era key or her modern key, she's all the fun that Sonic and Shadow bring to the table with thier speed amps, acrobatics, instinctive actions and more, except she lacks the more busted stuff that these guys have (while still having some surprisingly crazy stuff of her own). She also has more limitations in her arsenal, which are fun to work around. Not to mention, having notoriously powerful character from tier 4 to tier 2 lose to Amy is a lot funnier than making them lose to Sonic, Shadow, or Metal Sonic for instance.

Probably Shadow because I really like Chaos Control lol

 

[JJSliderman]

Emerl, I like how he’s a slightly more balanced but still ultimately strong version of Neo Metal’s copying, plus the balancing act of not surpassing his limiters.

 

[MysticMania]

God, I need a new Emerl game. Character building + battle cards? ****, man.

 

[MysticMania]

I want to play Battle more, but the combination of every fight being "do this 5 times, and if you beat me, 15 times", and only getting an singular 1 (one) point per encounter drives me insane

 

[omegabronic]

I want to play Battle more, but the combination of every fight being "do this 5 times, and if you beat me, 15 times", and only getting an singular 1 (one) point per encounter drives me insane

If you never get K.O you get 2, if you don't get hit you get 5

i juat equip Sonic's skills and spam like crazy

 

[Snek]

I’m not in agreement with literally 99% of the Sonic scaling in this wiki. Me and pretty much everyone outside of this forum just find the scaling here kinda bonkers and just dumb.

In all honesty sonics scaling is the most up to interpretation verse I've seen since bleach so fair enough.

If we're sharing our thoughts on the wiki scaling then I might as well throw my hat in the ring.

1. I don't absolutely agree with Low 2-C and 4-A base forms but I don't disagree with them either I'm just kinda neutral.

2. I'm also neutral about infinite speed as well.

3. I hate planet size scaling with a passion and firmly believe sonic shouldn't have it. Especially not with the calc we're using now assumes angel island represents 0.5px on the unleashed world map because it isn't visable from space. However why would we assume that 5px for example would be recognizable. And don't even get me started on calcs that use background depictions of earth to estimate its size when those artistic depictions aren't meant to be taken hyper literally.

4. Metal sonics V maximum overdrive shouldn't be considered as a speed multiplier when acceleration is what it quadruples not his speed.

5. Last I dislike chaos emeralds being granted a multiplier because they don't behave like power cores at all and us assuming that they do is purely an asumption, and one that expects consistent behavior from gems known for being chaotic.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

In all honesty sonics scaling is the most up to interpretation verse I've seen since bleach so fair enough.

If we're sharing our thoughts on the wiki scaling then I might as well throw my hat in the ring.

3. I hate planet size scaling with a passion and firmly believe sonic shouldn't have it. Especially not with the calc we're using now assumes angel island represents 0.5px on the unleashed world map because it isn't visable from space. However why would we assume that 5px for example would be recognizable. And don't even get me started on calcs that use background depictions of earth to estimate its size when those artistic depictions aren't meant to be taken hyper literally.

Tails says Angel Island can't be seen from orbit. We're not using the Unleashed world map to determine the size of Sonic's planet. That was changed. Lost Hex never seems to be visible from orbit either despite being a whole-ass continent in the sky, so Sonic's Earth might even be bigger and wierder than we thought. It's nothing like real life Earth, that's for sure.

4. Metal sonics V maximum overdrive shouldn't be considered as a speed multiplier when acceleration is what it quadruples not his speed.

I might agree, but it's kind of strange because the V maximum overdrive 100% behaves like a speed amp rather than an acceleration one.

5. Last I dislike chaos emeralds being granted a multiplier because they don't behave like power cores at all and us assuming that they do is purely an asumption, and one that expects consistent behavior from gems known for being chaotic.

They can bahave exactly like Power Cores in the sense that users can absorb thier power to amp thier stats. That's precisely what Tails meant in his statement comparing the two, and the multiplier is merely a low-ball based on that statement because we know that the Chaos Emeralds can reach far higher levels due to thier chaotic nature. This isn't even explicitely the case for fake Chaos Emeralds though, which are actually what's being canonically upscaled from Power Cores, despite being much weaker than the real ones.

 

[Jimmy.robinson.5099]

Dr. Starline, or Jet, maybe. Starline's arsenal is really interesting, and, minus discussing if he ""should/should not"" have the Emeralds in his arsenal, I like discussing his abilities and personality.

Jet is fun, because it just means you can talk about Sonic Riders and birds, so, it is cool. Gravity manipulation, too.

Did we ever establish if Jet the Hawk can beat Jet-Vac from Skylanders?

 

[RedReaper616]

Interesting find. So the Master Emerald can't nullify Sol Emeralds, but the Sol Emeralds can restore Chaos Emeralds (via having their energy absorbed). Also, even while some are depowered, they can incite dimensional travel of their own will, and guided Sonic to Blaze.

 

[Snek]

Tails says Angel Island can't be seen from orbit. We're not using the Unleashed world map to determine the size of Sonic's planet. That was changed. Lost Hex never seems to be visible from orbit either despite being a whole-ass continent in the sky, so Sonic's Earth might even be bigger and wierder than we thought. It's nothing like real life Earth, that's for sure.

I might agree, but it's kind of strange because the V maximum overdrive 100% behaves like a speed amp rather than an acceleration one.

They can bahave exactly like Power Cores in the sense that users can absorb thier power to amp thier stats. That's precisely what Tails meant in his statement comparing the two, and the multiplier is merely a low-ball based on that statement because we know that the Chaos Emeralds can reach far higher levels due to thier chaotic nature. This isn't even explicitely the case for fake Chaos Emeralds though, which are actually what's being canonically upscaled from Power Cores, despite being much weaker than the real ones.

All the other calcs for that continent still assume angel island is 0.5px on the map which is why you see the size being calculated as (pixels of earth/0.5) so that issue still remains. Although the lost hex point is good but I still think our current calcs are faulty.

Also the v maximum overdrive is admittedly strange however we don't know what metal sonics acceleration rate actually is so we don't know what quadrupling that would do.

Lastly yes characters can absorb emeralds to boost themselves however it was never specified how much stronger they get from that and they are never to my memory stated to absorb all the energy of a chaos emerald so there's no reason for single emeralds to grant greater boosts than power cores.
Actually here's an example let's say I'm harvesting water from one of two massive water tanks with both having different sized faucets.

One has an ocean of water with a normal size faucet.
(A chaos emerald)

The other has a lake of water with a faucet the size of a bathtub.
(A power core)

Faucet size here represents power given to the user and this example is here to illustrate why I dislike assuming that a chaos emerald having more energy proves it grants more energy.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Interesting answers. If we're restricting our answers to these more obscure characters, mine would be Black Doom or Mecha Sonic.

I'll go with Erazor Jinn, magic was always implied to be part of the Sonic game canon but never really in the forefront until Secret Rings iirc with wish granting. Also shouldn't she have Space-Time manipulation or RW?

 

[Theuser789]

Interesting find. So the Master Emerald can't nullify Sol Emeralds, but the Sol Emeralds can restore Chaos Emeralds (via having their energy absorbed). Also, even while some are depowered, they can incite dimensional travel of their own will, and guided Sonic to Blaze.

It's cool stuff but idk what to put it in the pages.

 

[RedReaper616]

It's cool stuff but idk what to put it in the pages.

More justifications, really. Like, Energy Absorption doesn't have a justification on the Chaos Emerald profile, for example, so this is pretty good evidence that it could do so. Same with Sonic Runners having the Emeralds absorb the energy of the Mind Control Ray.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Did we ever establish if Jet the Hawk can beat Jet-Vac from Skylanders?

If Jet-Vac's profile is accurate, Jet blitzes and one-shots. Still a better opponent than Falco though.

Also shouldn't she have Space-Time manipulation or RW?

Sure? Not interested in making a CRT for it though.

All the other calcs for that continent still assume angel island is 0.5px on the map which is why you see the size being calculated as (pixels of earth/0.5) so that issue still remains. Although the lost hex point is good but I still think our current calcs are faulty.

Seems reasonable to me. What would you do instead?

Also the v maximum overdrive is admittedly strange however we don't know what metal sonics acceleration rate actually is so we don't know what quadrupling that would do.

Well, we can see what it's shown to do, which is actually increasing Metal Sonic's speed, which makes perfect sense since
1: Metal Sonic maintains a consistant speed throughout all of his boss fights unless he uses the maximum overdrive, which means that contextually, there is no acceleration value to multiply in the first place. All we're shown is that the technique greatly enhances his speed.
2: Metal is supposed to be Sonic's absolute equal. In order to be his equal in speed, he would also need speed boosting techniques on par with the spin dash or Super peel-out, which the maximum overdrive is shown to be. In other words, the move is a speed amp regardless of the statement being about it being an acceleration amp, which doesn't make much sense anyway.

Lastly yes characters can absorb emeralds to boost themselves however it was never specified how much stronger they get from that and they are never to my memory stated to absorb all the energy of a chaos emerald so there's no reason for single emeralds to grant greater boosts than power cores.
Actually here's an example let's say I'm harvesting water from one of two massive water tanks with both having different sized faucets.

One has an ocean of water with a normal size faucet.
(A chaos emerald)

The other has a lake of water with a faucet the size of a bathtub.
(A power core)

Faucet size here represents power given to the user and this example is here to illustrate why I dislike assuming that a chaos emerald having more energy proves it grants more energy.

Even fake emeralds are described as "more potent" than Power Cores when it comes to powering Eggman's machines, so the real emeralds absolutely have a bigger faucet than them within your analogy, especially if they power a being capable of powering them up further with thier emotions.

 

[Fireld]

2: Metal is supposed to be Sonic's absolute equal. In order to be his equal in speed, he would also need speed boosting techniques on par with the spin dash or Super peel-out, which the maximum overdrive is shown to be.

Pretty sure he does use the spin dash himself against Sonic in 4 & Mania

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Pretty sure he does use the spin dash himself against Sonic in 4 & Mania

After getting fixed and upgraded, yes. Before that, and even often after that, he still relied on the overdrive, yet was still deemed equal to Sonic

 

[Snek]

If Jet-Vac's profile is accurate, Jet blitzes and one-shots. Still a better opponent than Falco though.

Sure? Not interested in making a CRT for it though.

Seems reasonable to me. What would you do instead?

Well, we can see what it's shown to do, which is actually increasing Metal Sonic's speed, which makes perfect sense since
1: Metal Sonic maintains a consistant speed throughout all of his boss fights unless he uses the maximum overdrive, which means that contextually, there is no acceleration value to multiply in the first place. All we're shown is that the technique greatly enhances his speed.
2: Metal is supposed to be Sonic's absolute equal. In order to be his equal in speed, he would also need speed boosting techniques on par with the spin dash or Super peel-out, which the maximum overdrive is shown to be. In other words, the move is a speed amp regardless of the statement being about it being an acceleration amp, which doesn't make much sense anyway.

Even fake emeralds are described as "more potent" than Power Cores when it comes to powering Eggman's machines, so the real emeralds absolutely have a bigger faucet than them within your analogy.

Well for the planet size calc it's an honest idk from me. Although if we go with the logic that angel island isnt visable in any capacity that could imply that its smaller than 1px by an unknown amount since images are made of pixles to begin with. Still I think that isnt great since I think that a 5px image for example wouldnt be recognizable as anything either. In other words if we want to roll with our current calcs I suggest changing the 0.5px part to 1px instead but I would prefer going back to the drawing bord to come up with something else.

Next the overdrive attack. Acceleration is the rate at which you accumulate speed so with enough time the overdrive attack could surpass his base speed. For example if it took 1 second for metal sonic to reach SoL normally and he used the overdrive attack for 0.26 seconds he would technichally be faster than before with quadrupled acceleration. So really it amplifying speed to some extent and being an acceleraleration technique arent mutually exclusive. Besides its a bit odd to use a guide that specifies that the acceleration is increased while asserting that the guide really meant top speed instead.

Last I didnt know about the tails statement so fair enough on the emeralds being better amplifiers than power cores. I conceed on that front but I have a question. Why do the power cores and by extension chaos emeralds multiply on top of each other when the power cores amplify the user specifically?

 

[JJSliderman]

Ima be honest, the way V max overdrive is portrayed in every game has Metal only use it after he’s already maintaining a constant speed, so I don’t think it’s boosted acceleration in the way normally portrayed.