Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Is there direct confirmation he’s not getting hit in the past? We only see him dodge in the present.

If he'd get damaged in his past, Sonic would feel the hit in the present. Dodging kinda does nothing if the opponent also strikes at the moment you were in the range to get hit by the attack in the past.

Assuming Solaris wants to hit Sonic in a certain location. Sonic is there right now but moves out of the way. After one second, Solaris hits, but although Sonic dodged it in the present, his past self from one second prior would still get hit by the attack meaning Sonic doesn't actually dodges the attack

As we know, this is not what happens. Sonic can completely dodge Solaris' attacks and not get hit by them at all

 

[JJSliderman]

But if Sonic was acausal, he wouldn’t feel the attack in the past hitting him, because he would be unaffected by changes to his past.

 

[LaserPrecision]

As far as I know, there wasn't a Sonic of the past or future. He was only ever fighting in one time period. Never across several. His Timeline was the first one messed up by Solaris, so I'm doubtful there'd be a past or future Sonic to hit.

 

[JJSliderman]

Well obviously past and future versions of Sonic/Shadow do exist, Shadow time travels back 10 years and doesn’t end up in a capsule on Prison Island. Not to mention Solaris had yet to fully collapse time into nothing before he was defeated.

 

[PsychoSSF2]

personally the voice sounds annoying as ****

And that’s your opinion which I respect. What do you think we are, Twitter?

 

[LaserPrecision]

Well obviously past and future versions of Sonic/Shadow do exist, Shadow time travels back 10 years and doesn’t end up in a capsule on Prison Island. Not to mention Solaris had yet to fully collapse time into nothing before he was defeated.

That wasn't my point. Obviously, a past present and future version of a character can exist. My point was that Solaris ****** up their timeline. The whole point of the distorted dimension they were in was that Solaris screwed over their Timeline. The past, present, and future are part of a Timeline. If Solaris messed it up, it's unlikely they had a past and future version at that point in time. As far as I recall, it was implied everyone that wasn't caught inside the spatial distortion was killed. It's why when Sonic's friends catapult through time via the nexus, there's no people or even Eggman's robots left behind. Only Iblis' spawns and Solaris' temporally omnipresent eyes (Which further support his omnipresence through time as he can be seen everywhere and everywhen throughout the time periods).

 

[JJSliderman]

I guess my point was, by fighting Solaris they seemingly created past and future versions of themselves as they went along, since their actions had a set timeline of events. And I’m just not sure on whether the characters dealt with Solaris’s attacks in the past with acausality type 1, or actually dodging. I know Occam’s Razor and Sonic’s main character traits make it seem like the latter, but that’s always gonna be kind of an assumption.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I guess my point was, by fighting Solaris they seemingly created past and future versions of themselves as they went along, since their actions had a set timeline of events. And I’m just not sure on whether the characters dealt with Solaris’s attacks in the past with acausality type 1, or actually dodging. I know Occam’s Razor and Sonic’s main character traits make it seem like the latter, but that’s always gonna be kind of an assumption.

How would fighting Solaris create new past and future versions of themselves? Sonic's verse is hypothesized to run on many worlds theory, but the only implications of that are every possibility creates a parallel timeline, not a future or present. The new Timeline would of course have its own past and future, but what occurs in another timeline doesn't bear any effects on someone from another Timeline if that's what you were trying to imply.

Keep in mind, in the context here, when I say Timeline, I don't mean the linear events of a Universe, I'm using it to refer to an individual Space-Time, as it was used that way in Sonic 2006. I say this just to make sure we're on the same page.

Any Sonic, Silver, or Shadow of the Past, Present, or Future was implied to have been killed by Solaris, with only their present versions being saved by the Time-Space rift. Thus why in every time they jumped into, there were only signs of Solaris there (Iblis' spawn, and his eyes which would suck in the player). No humans, none of Eggman's robots, etc.

Causality is weird in Sonic 2006 anyways. Sonic going back in time to save Elise didn't save Silver's future as he thought it would, which he noted, implying that the change in the past didn't change Silver's future, and sometimes, Silver's world is just implied to be a Timeline instead of just the future (I believe that's just a mistake on SEGA's part). I think you could maybe infer that the reason Silver's future wasn't saved by Sonic saving Elise was that Mephiles ended up making her cry and breaking the seal later on, however, that doesn't add up, as Iblis didn't go on to slowly ruin the world, he immediately fused with Mephiles to create Solaris. This means if anything, the Future shouldn't have been there when he got there at all.

 

[JJSliderman]

When I said versions being created, I meant more in the sense of “when you do an action, that action is now in the past, and you are in that past doing that action as you exist in the present”. So it’s possible that the past versions of these characters formed during the Solaris fight aren’t actually dodging, but are taking the hits and being hurt, but the characters don’t notice due to acausality or the aforementioned many worlds theory.

 

[LaserPrecision]

When I said versions being created, I meant more in the sense of “when you do an action, that action is now in the past, and you are in that past doing that action as you exist in the present”. So it’s possible that the past versions of these characters formed during the Solaris fight aren’t actually dodging, but are taking the hits and being hurt, but the characters don’t notice due to acausality or the aforementioned many worlds theory.

It's unlikely they were creating "past versions" as the fight goes on as time-space at that point was completely distorted, expanding, and was on the verge of collapse. I don't think there's any reason to assume time was working normally and there was a past and future version of each Hedgehog during the fight.

 

[JJSliderman]

If Time wasn’t working normally then, Solaris wouldn’t have been able to go into the past and future because those sort of rely on time working normally.

 

[LaserPrecision]

If Time wasn’t working normally then, Solaris wouldn’t have been able to go into the past and future because those sort of rely on time working normally.

That's literally what the main cast did. Time wasn't working correctly, so they used the nexus to leap through time due to the time-space distortion. It caused there to be an intersection in time. Making it possible for anyone at that point in time to time travel via the nexus (The bright light we saw at the heart of the distortion). Just because some applications of time still worked doesn't mean all applications of time are working correctly. It's the reason it's distorted in the first place, because it's starting to break down and function improperly. If causality was still prevalent, we would've seen other characters throughout time besides the things that are Solaris' doing.

In short, acausality not working right =/= he can't exist or attack throughout time.

 

[JJSliderman]

I’m confused, people say that the rift was the only place where time and space weren’t working properly (that was even one of the counter arguments pro-immeasurable side used). If they used the nexus to time travel then that kind of dampers the speed feat potential.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I’m confused, people say that the rift was the only place where time and space weren’t working properly (that was even one of the counter arguments pro-immeasurable side used). If they used the nexus to time travel then that kind of dampers the speed feat potential.

Super Sonic, Shadow and Silver did not used the nexus to time travel. They just did it
They only used it before getting all chaos emeralds since they can't time travel on their own in Base form

 

[JJSliderman]

Alright, I just want to know if it’s confirmed Sonic actually dodges the projectiles from the past, since otherwise acausality type 1 could explain that aspect.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Man you really like overcomplicating stuff

 

[ShakeResounding]

I bet 5 dollars that it was because a DB goon said something

 

[LaserPrecision]

I’m confused, people say that the rift was the only place where time and space weren’t working properly (that was even one of the counter arguments pro-immeasurable side used). If they used the nexus to time travel then that kind of dampers the speed feat potential.

The only place where it doesn't? Then they're definitely tripping. While the Nexus itself wasn't stable by any means, it's what allowed the characters to time travel to begin with. I mean, it's not like all the characters just willed themself into the zones to get the Emeralds. The distortion caused an intersection in space-time, connecting the past, present, and future:

Sonic's friends used these intersections to quote en quote "vault through time" (Keep in mind, Solaris doesn't need the intersection to affect things across time. He's already present across all of time regardless of the distortion, so he'd still be Immeasurable and whatnot, making the Super's who scale to him obviously Immeasurable):

You could also just interpret it as all of the zones being inside the black distortion we saw despite the different backgrounds as they're all contained within the same distortion as Soleanna and the same guide describes all the zones they just went through as being the fractured edges of Soleanna. With the "vaulting through time" thing just being somewhat hyperbolic as they're technically just moving through space, but into different time periods that intersect inside of the distorted space.

Super Sonic, Shadow and Silver did not used the nexus to time travel. They just did it
They only used it before getting all chaos emeralds since they can't time travel on their own in Base form

Actually, based on the Prima guide, they did use the Nexus to send them across time so they can each fight their respective Solaris (Past, Present, and Future). In fact, they fly directly into the heart of the distortion (the nexus):

The whole battle seems to take place inside that white "nexus" but at different points in time due to Solaris' time shenanigans. That would explain why Sonic, Shadow, and Silver could communicate with each other inside their respective voids. Their voices reach each other through the nexus. It's either that, or they were all fighting the same Solaris at the same point in time, but that's unlikely given they specifically needed all three to defeat him in the Past, Present, and Future simultaneously as we know.

Honestly, the whole Solaris fight is a bit confusing and the Prima guide seems to be a bit contradictive on a few parts of the game, making it a bit harder to dictate how some events went down in the game.

 

[PsychoSSF2]

The only place where it doesn't? Then they're definitely tripping. While the Nexus itself wasn't stable by any means, it's what allowed the characters to time travel to begin with. I mean, it's not like all the characters just willed themself into the zones to get the Emeralds. The distortion caused an intersection in space-time, connecting the past, present, and future:

Sonic's friends used these intersections to quote en quote "vault through time" (Keep in mind, Solaris doesn't need the intersection to affect things across time. He's already present across all of time regardless of the distortion, so he'd still be Immeasurable and whatnot, making the Super's who scale to him obviously Immeasurable):

You could also just interpret it as all of the zones being inside the black distortion we saw despite the different backgrounds as they're all contained within the same distortion as Soleanna and the same guide describes all the zones they just went through as being the fractured edges of Soleanna. With the "vaulting through time" thing just being somewhat hyperbolic as they're technically just moving through space, but into different time periods that intersect inside of the distorted space.


Actually, based on the Prima guide, they did use the Nexus to send them across time so they can each fight their respective Solaris (Past, Present, and Future). In fact, they fly directly into the heart of the distortion (the nexus):

The whole battle seems to take place inside that white "nexus" but at different points in time due to Solaris' time shenanigans. That would explain why Sonic, Shadow, and Silver could communicate with each other inside their respective voids. Their voices reach each other through the nexus. It's either that, or they were all fighting the same Solaris at the same point in time, but that's unlikely given they specifically needed all three to defeat him in the Past, Present, and Future simultaneously as we know.

Honestly, the whole Solaris fight is a bit confusing and the Prima guide seems to be a bit contradictive on a few parts of the game, making it a bit harder to dictate how some events went down in the game.

These are... ACTUALLY good points!

 

[JJSliderman]

I bet 5 dollars that it was because a DB goon said something

I just want to be sure it’s speed and not just Acausality type 1+temporal AOE, without relying on Occam’s and iconic character traits. Because yeah, not a lot of people I talk to buy it.

 

[JED]

I just want to be sure it’s speed and not just Acausality type 1+temporal AOE, without relying on Occam’s and iconic character traits. Because yeah, not a lot of people I talk to buy it.

How does Acausality 1 matter here at all? All it does is make you immune to changes in the past. If Sonic died in the fight against Solaris he would have just been dead.
Idk who you’re talking to but this is pretty concrete.

 

[JJSliderman]

The acausality would mean Sonic wouldn’t have to worry about dodging attacks in the past, and could just focus on dodging in the present.

 

[LaserPrecision]

The acausality would mean Sonic wouldn’t have to worry about dodging attacks in the past, and could just focus on dodging in the present.

When they talk about Solaris' attacks going through time, I'm pretty sure they're referring to Sonic of the present reacting to said attack. Not Sonic of the past (Who shouldn't even exist in the heart of the time-space rift as it's simply a void brought about by Solaris as he consumes space-time). It doesn't matter if Sonic of the past dodged it, what matters is if Sonic reacts to his attacks during the fight at all. As Solaris scales to Immeasurable.

If it's any consolation, Super Sonic will be receiving more supportive evidence for Immeasurable speed in a future CRT due to statements made about Time Eater in the Encycospeedia.

 

[sanicspood]

what evidence is in the enycolospeedifa

 

[LaserPrecision]

what evidence is in the enycolospeedifa

It says something along the lines of Time Eater flies to the end of time to fight Super Sonic. I own the book, I'll go check it real quick and just quote it word for word.

 

[JJSliderman]

The encyclospeedia gets a lot of shit wrong so idk how reliable it is.

When they talk about Solaris' attacks going through time, I'm pretty sure they're referring to Sonic of the present reacting to said attack. Not Sonic of the past (Who shouldn't even exist in the heart of the time-space rift as it's simply a void brought about by Solaris as he consumes space-time). It doesn't matter if Sonic of the past dodged it, what matters is if Sonic reacts to his attacks during the fight at all. As Solaris scales to Immeasurable.

Solaris isn’t immeasurable, iirc one of the big reasons Sonic is immeasurable is that he can dodge attacks coming from the past (iirc dodge an attack before its launched), which he wouldn’t have to do if he was acausal and could survive dying or getting hit in the past.

Although ig another potential argument could be that since Sonic can outpace and blitz Solaris, someone who knows where Sonic is going to be throughout all of time, that Sonic can technically land an attack before he makes it. But I’m not sure on that.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Alright, opened it up. It actually says "Both Super Sonics fly through the end of time to destroy the mechanical monster."

Clean immeasurable speed feat.

 

[LaserPrecision]

The encyclospeedia gets a lot of shit wrong so idk how reliable it is.

Like what?

Solaris isn’t immeasurable, iirc one of the big reasons Sonic is immeasurable is that he can dodge attacks coming from the past (iirc dodge an attack before its launched).

Sonic scales from Solaris, not the other way around. If Solaris' attacks can travel through time, then that's Immeasurable.

 

[JJSliderman]

Like how the book said that Eggman in advance 3 split the world into different pockets of reality.

And also Solaris isn’t immeasurable on his page anymore because it was agreed his physiology didn’t translate to speed.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Like how the book said that Eggman in advance 3 split the world into different pockets of reality.

He did. That's simply a different interpretation of what occured. He split the world into 7 parts, and planned to create an Eggman Empire on each one. You could interpret each chunk as its own "world" which is synonymous with reality. That's such a minor thing, and plus Sonic actually needed to take rings to a hub world to traverse each new "world" created from Chaos Control.

 

[JJSliderman]

Also not sure if flying through the end of time or running to the end of time are gonna be considered immeasurable but then, eh.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Also not sure if flying through the end of time or running to the end of time are gonna be considered immeasurable but then, eh.

Without any other evidence, it may be harder to argue. But given we also have Solaris, I don't think it's going to be very hard to use Super Sonic flying through time as an Immeasurable speed supportive evidence.

 

[ShakeResounding]

iirc one of the big reasons Sonic is immeasurable is that he can dodge attacks coming from the past (iirc dodge an attack before its launched),

That is absolutely NOT where the main argument comes from, what are you on about? Hell, Sonic is even being tagged in after SILVER. The guy fighting in the FUTURE. It's even noted in the profile, but I'll just remind some stuff. Here and here, for example. It isn't just Sonic, Shadow is reacting to an attack that goes from the present (Sonic) to the past (Shadow). AKA Shadow's future. Type 1 doesn't cover that.

Solaris' attacks are Temporally Omnipresent, they're existing in all points of time at once. Stop clinging onto "past" and start clinging onto "all of time".

 

[JED]

I might wanna add the fact that Shadow and Silver literally travel to the last and future also qualifies for immeasurable even without the laser shit.
For the fact to happen all 3 have to be traveling throughout time. It’s blatant immeasurable

 

[JED]

Also here’s the Encyclopedia scan blatantly stating the Sonic’s were flying through time in their fight.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I might wanna add the fact that Shadow and Silver literally travel to the last and future also qualifies for immeasurable even without the laser shit.
For the fact to happen all 3 have to be traveling throughout time. It’s blatant immeasurable

Eh, I don't think they traveled through time. I explained why earlier. It's stated and shown that they just fly straight into the heart of the time-space rift (Which I actually confused for the nexus. The nexus is the warped dimension with Soleanna in it, while the time-space rift is the white light that leads to the void in the last fight of the game) which allowed them to access different points in time.

 

[Fireld]

Like what?

These

 

[LaserPrecision]

These

Those are just minor/minor editorial mistakes though. If he's seriously trying to argue that editorial mistakes such as spelling errors and misplacement of pictures equate to the information regarding lore being inaccurate, that'd be exceedingly asinine.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

The "encyclo-speed-ia" is still more reliable than some randos online that simply can't accept how powerful the Sonic franchise truly is and yet conveniently they usually can't bring up solid evidence to prove their case (strange isn't it?) and quickly resort to poisoning the well or playing victim when they points get refuted. I honestly don't blame Sonic fans sometimes losing they temper when dealing with others who have such vehement hate or negativity towards a fictional blue hedgehog and his fans.

@JJSliderman At the risk of sounding like a zoomer, please stop letting those Sonic detractors live rent free in your head my dude. I get we sometimes have to play Mephiles' advocate to cover our bases but this circular argument with Solaris every few months is getting old now.

It's kinda a twisted tradition here that every once in awhile some doubt is cast on the context of what exactly happened in Sonic 06 lol! Are we trapped in a never-ending paradox?

 

[sanicspood]

goku >