Son Goku (4) vs Sister Friede (1)

[Xantospoc]

I have years ago, I don't remember everything. I died to Friede more times than I can count.

What you are concerned doesn't matter when it's explicitly differentiated by ki sensing'.

But she has one. Which is what matters. She can live without one, yes, but she has. Thus she can be sensed

 

[Mr. Bambu]

...no. As said earlier in the thread, Goku has trouble sensing those with little ki. She's dead and just has a soul. Not ki.

 

[Xantospoc]

She has a soul, thus she has ki. So she can be sensed

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Except Goku has trouble sensing those of even normal levels of ki. You didn't really address that part.

 

[Akreious]

"However they portray it or write it is fine but AFAIK the site has long debunked his senses in that way and most of his things are sensing ki of enemies around him- ki that Friede lacks. "

What even is this logic? Because Goku has shown the overreliance of an extremely good trick that can't normally be fooled; namely Ki Sensing (You can't "falsify" your Ki Signature. And thus far the only people who bypassed this are Androids who use artificial Ki and Hit who goes into another dimension and thus leaves behind a "Ki Afterimage" that fools Goku into thinking Hit is somewhere he's not), that he somehow lost an ability he had as a child and is one of the fundamental things he learned?

On another note about Hit, when Ki Sensing absolutely failed against him he began to use his traditional senses once again. Against those invisible Blasts that's unsensable to Ki Sensing. And he succeeded; he fully countered Hit's invisible Blasts.

"...no. As said earlier in the thread, Goku has trouble sensing those with little ki. She's dead and just has a soul. Not ki. "

No, this is flat out false. Earlier in the thread, it was noted that Goku had trouble sensing those with little ki across cosmological distances. Beerus' planet isn't even within the observable universe and nobody on Earth at the time had a strong enough power level for Goku to sense so Gohan powered up to do so. Same with Namekians; too weak and too far away. Also Earlier in the thread, it was noted that souls do indeed have a correlation with Ki. Namely even though Goku was dead and only a soul, he could still train himself up and build up his Ki Reserves as well as gain an entirely new form (SSJ3). Hence even though you're dead, you'd still have Ki. There's no evidence to say Dead = No Ki because... they do. This is repeatedly shown with literally every dead/soul character in Dragon Ball. If you had no Ki when you are dead then all the training Goku and the Z Fighters did with King Kai would be absolutely useless.

Also Goku and co have absolutely no problems sensing the little ki of someone in a local vicinity such as easily finding Bulma even though by all accounts she's just as strong as any other teenage girl in the world. Among a crowd they'd have absolutely NO problem finding her at all.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

See above. The site itself has pages stating Goku has displayed issues with people with even normal ki. You're literally making the same argument debunked there. The argument being debunked even makes note of the whole inter-dimensional and same-universe stuff and has it all applicable in combat.

Essentially this comes down to flat out ignoring the resurrection and blackflame abilities as well, her invisibility isn't the only qualitative advantage she has on Goku. You're still wrong in my opinion but this doesn't address all of her advantages.

 

[Akreious]

"See above. The site itself has pages stating Goku has displayed issues with people with even normal ki."

Where. Show me, don't just tell me "he just did". What site itself? What pages? What issues? I guarantee you, they don't exist.

"You're literally making the same argument debunked there. The argument being debunked even makes note of the whole inter-dimensional and same-universe stuff and has it all applicable in combat. "

A) Not debunked. I haven't seen a lick of debunking in this thread. In fact I see a lot of agreeing actually. That Goku has good Enhanced Senses and has the feats to support it. Namely... all of this thread.

B) Again, where and not really relevant. Goku said he was able to feel the life coursing through the flipping grass and the lands when he was building up a Spirit Bomb, not sure if it was against Freeza or Vegeta. I think it was Vegeta, but either way unless you're telling me that GRASS has a higher power level than Friede...

"Essentially this comes down to flat out ignoring the resurrection"

Oh please. She can only resurrect once and that's going into her evolved form, she can't do it indefinitely. Sure it'd be annoying but Goku is no stranger to transformations that make one stronger.

" and blackflame abilities as well"

Care to quantify any of her blackflame abilities instead of just... saying that they're an advantage?

"her invisibility isn't the only qualitative advantage she has on Goku."

While not untrue, I can make arguments for it as well.

"You're still wrong in my opinion but this doesn't address all of her advantages. "

See I would be inclined to agree; that if I'm wrong, I'd look back and say I'm wrong. But... none of what you said has been substantiated yet Bambu. Well I mean, most of what you said. While I can see some truth to your reply, I cannot agree with you on the basis that the arguments you're making against Dragon Ball goes completely against my recollection of the series, in both Manga and Anime.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Fallacy. Ctrl + F "Vast Senses". It exists because I literally copied it word for word from there. It was linked above just like I'm linking now. Oof.

Grass probably does unironically. Friede's dead.

She can't resurrect indefinitely. Doing it once is enough. Discrediting it by "well its not infinite" isn't anything to counter having two lives to Goku's one.

They're an advantage in versatility and AoE, as said above as well.

Your recollection of the series is that they always win, however. I mean no offense in addressing this issue, but I have personally advocated to stay out of Dragon Ball fights specifically because people tend to take them for much more than they are and vote for the characters relatively blindly. I believe this issue can be fixed by addressing it.

 

[Akreious]

"Fallacy. Ctrl + F "Vast Senses". It exists because I literally copied it word for word from there. It was linked above just like I'm linking now. Oof."

This isn't evidence against what I was saying. Like, this completely ignores what I said. That's literally just a fanboy saying Goku has good senses, ergo he can sense everyone. But if you really want to try and use this to debunk what I said, here I go I guess.

"That is too vague, Goku has trouble sensing someone with normal human ki, even if we assume the Flash has ki (which is not necessarily true), then since he uses the Speedforce for his powers and not ki, his ki would not be any greater than that of a normal human."

True. The Flash would have a Ki Level no greater than any normal human. However unless the fight starts them in literally universe spanning distances apart, not relevant to any normal matchup.

"Goku cannot sense beings too far away in space if he does not recognize their ki, and even if he does he still cannot sense them if they are too far away"

True. This is exactly what I was saying.

"Furthermore, he often loses track of his opponents when they move around him, and these opponents usually have ki's as large or larger than his."

Name me a single instance of this happening. Literally one. Because while this fits into the example's argument, this never happened.

"There's no way he'd sense the Flash, who only has normal human - equivalent ki, and is moving way faster than any DBZ character, and even if he did, he wouldn't be able to react in time to stop him."

Ki Sensing never allowed someone to fight against opponents that hilariously speed blitzes them in speed. Ever. It allowed them to fight people above them in speed slightly, sure, but not substantially like Flash vs Goku.

"he has trouble sensing people even with strong, familiar ki's if they are too far away"

Correct.

"and the dimension thing isn't really quantifiable, especially considering it was harder for him to sense the Nameks in his own dimension than it was to sense King Kai in the afterlife. "

Again, Correct.

" Furthermore, he loses track of his enemies when they are moving fast around him, and they have very large ki's."

Never happened.

" He would never sense someone moving at FTL speed with only average human ki.""

Assuming equal speed, he would. Ki Sensing has always allowed one to detect another person of the same speed level; it's why Goku and gang relies on it so much.

Almost every example agrees with my assessment, Bambu. Except factors that work for the example don't work here.

1. Friede isn't a massive distance away from Goku.

2. Friede doesn't speed blitz Goku (Speed's equalized)

3. Friede arguably has a higher Ki amount than The Flash since she's an Unkindled; a being naturally of high power unlike Flash who draws their power from the greater universe. She's blatantly shown superhuman feats without using magic or something to assist; meaning higher Ki amount.

"Grass probably does unironically. Friede's dead. "

So was King Kai for all of Post-Cell Saga Dragon Ball. I don't see Goku having trouble finding him? Or Goku when he came back to the Mortal Universe. You know... when he went super saiyan 3? or Freeza being able to use Ki even though he was dead in the ToP? And the method they came back don't give them physical bodies. They literally get whisked away back to the afterlife once their time is up. As in... they actually, physically, lift up and go to the afterlife. Their soul.

"She can't resurrect indefinitely. Doing it once is enough. Discrediting it by "well its not infinite" isn't anything to counter having two lives to Goku's one."

Friede's resurrection is essentially no different from a self-healing Zenkai boost. Hell Goku did something similar where he restarted his own heart. While it'd surprise him, he wouldn't be caught off-guard and be happier more than anything.

Also I never said it wasn't an advantage, just not a massive one.

"They're an advantage in versatility and AoE, as said above as well."

Pretty sure I provided a few versatility moves of Goku myself and debunked the notion of AoE being an advantage by... not being in the AoE? Instant Transmission doesn't need to lock onto anything within a local vicinity, so I really don't see AoE as an advantage. Not a large enough one at least.

"Your recollection of the series is that they always win, however."

Where did you get... this from?

"I mean no offense in addressing this issue, but I have personally advocated to stay out of Dragon Ball fights specifically because people tend to take them for much more than they are and vote for the characters relatively blindly. I believe this issue can be fixed by addressing it. "

Okay but how are you addressing it? All you did was send me a link to the fallacy page and never actually addressed any of my points that used actual story points in them with named characters and their states within the story.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Isn't Ki just lifeforce? And the stronger you are physically the more you have of it? Barry Allen's 4-B, why wouldn't he be able to sense him clearly?

" then since he uses the Speedforce for his powers and not ki"

But Goku's not sensing what powers his opponent use. It's not info analysis, it's just sensing ki which is the lifeforce of the opponent.

Edit: Okay, this is after looking at the Fallacy. The example's supposed to be an example of Argument from repetition. Yeah, Ki wouldn't be sensed as human level for every character that doesn't use Ki.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The stronger you are... in Dragon Ball. Because literally everyone there functions off of ki (most, I guess, I won't say all). Friede's a corpse. Asking me to give examples from Dragon Ball would be like me sending you to watch every VaatiVidya video in order to prove to me Friede doesn't passively soul-rip everybody around her. That's the argument the site has provided to me. You haven't actually dealt with it aside from asking me to provide examples. At that point I'd just find out who wrote it up and debunk their argument there.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

It's not "you have ki so you are strong", it's "you are strong so you have ki".

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Ki = Lifeforce, yes?

Friede, let me say it again, much like any other Dark Souls character, is dead. Been dead for presumably millennia.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Oh, I wasn't refering to that but the Flash comparison.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Even then, would beings outside of Dragon Ball who don't actively use ki powers have strong ki? Is that distinction ever made?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

You mean, like in verse? Ki is the life force of a person. When people fight with ki, they're turning it into attacks. That's why people like 5-B Tien_Shinha can knock down repeatedly 4-C+ Cell by sacrificing large amounts of their life into their attacks and almost dying. Normal humans in Dragon ball still have Ki, they just don't know how to use it. The stronger someone is, the more ki they have. That's why martial artists that don't know how to use ki would have more of it than a normal human that doesn't know how to use it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Earlier, I mean. You brought up having ki doesn't make you strong, being strong means you have ki.

...but does that translate to other verses, where ki isn't a concept?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Oh, right. Well, Ki is what amps you. People put more ki into attacks and that makes them stronger and the like. You need to be physically strong to have more Ki to use, that's why you see Goku and the other characters training so much. If it went with the logic of, "you have this amount of ki so you are this strong", then training wouldn't do anything since you already have the high amount of Ki.

It should. Like I said, the usage of ki is turning your lifeforce into attacks. Before that, it's just your life force. Everyone who lives has that and even ghosts have one too. And as demonstrated throughout the series, the stronger a character is, the more Ki they have. So for example, take 2nd Key Ridley as an example of a character from a different verse. He is 5-B, so he would in the ballpark of Saiyan Saga Characters. Someone like him wouldn't have the ki level of a normal human, because he does not have the strength of a normal human.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yes, and I understand that- but that isn't how other verses work on a fundamental level. Ki isn't a concept, nobody is amping their powers with it. You're saying every verse should have ki via life force. But let's talk about characters of unconventional physiology- an abstract, a deity, or, of course, an undead. Simply saying "they are this strong thus this easy to detect" doesn't make sense because the verse doesn't specify that higher levels of potency translates to life-force.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

What do you mean by a fundamental level?

Well, abstracts don't exist in dragonball so that assumption is that it doesn't work(This is only if abstracts normally can't be sensed, I don't know that much about them). The gods in Dragonball require God Ki to be able to be sensed, but that's not something you would give to everybody that's called a god in any verse because of Undistributed middle. An undead, I'm not sure on. It has worked on dead people and I think planets too, but I'm not sure about the undead.

"Simply saying "they are this strong thus this easy to detect" doesn't make sense because the verse doesn't specify that higher levels of potency translates to life-force."

But it does. Every character that has more ki than another character is stronger than that character. Life Force doesn't refer to how long a character can live but to how strong a character is.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Fundamental. Basic. Bottom. Tons of verses never once introduce the concept of life-energy as an actual tangible force.

But it doesn't because it doesn't address why they are that strong. In Dragon Ball it'd be as simple as "oh well he is that strong he has this much ki". What if a character is possessed, do you sense the possessor giving power or the character? If they amp their stats with items, does their ki increase? It can't be as that flat statement says it is.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

DB: Character A > Character B. Character A has more Ki than Character B.

Other Verse: Character A > Character B.

That's literally the only change.


There would be two ki signatures there then. That person would feel like a lesser version of Cell who has been described as a mass of screaming people because he's absorbed so many. As for the strength of the signature? It would be the power of what the possessed character is, Ginyu as an example of the closest thing.


Yeah, it does. There's an example of this in verse. Future Trunks in his last key.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

What if a character is possessed, do you sense the possessor giving power or the character

Actually no. Ginyu switches bodies with people to become stronger aka gain more Ki.

Almost forgot this

• Friede - 1 (Bambu)
• Goku - 4 (Warren, Sderrick, Akreious, Jasonsith)

 

[Akreious]

Ki = Lifeforce, yes?
Friede, let me say it again, much like any other Dark Souls character, is dead. Been dead for presumably millennia.

Bambu, jesus, stop ignoring what I said.

There are multiple characters that are dead and don't even have bodies unlike Friede, yet they retain their Ki.

Also no, Ki is not simply "lifeforce". It's more appropriately translated to "Spirit" or "Fighting Spirit" rather than simply Life force. We know they're different things from pure life energy because the Spirit Bomb uses such and it, notably, uses a unique power source they don't normally use.

Hell, according to Toriyama, Ki is made up of 3 things:

"

• Genki (Õàâµ░ù lit. "Vigor")
• Yüki (Õïçµ░ù lit. "Courage")
• Shōki (µ¡úµ░ù lit. "Mind")"

The only real part that would be missing once someone is dead would maybe be Vigor (Physical Body), that still would leave Yuki (Courage) and Shoki (Mind). And even then since the Genki-Dama can still be used with dead people, it shouldn't even be associated with the body anyways. So according to Toriyama himself, being dead or not has absolutely NO bearing on one's Ki.

So no. Bambu you have still yet to refute my arguments. I brought up everything in the Fallacy page you tried to use against me and I still have yet to see any actual storypoints or story elements to back up what you're saying.

"Friede's a corpse. Asking me to give examples from Dragon Ball would be like me sending you to watch every VaatiVidya video in order to prove to me Friede doesn't passively soul-rip everybody around her. That's the argument the site has provided to me. You haven't actually dealt with it aside from asking me to provide examples. At that point I'd just find out who wrote it up and debunk their argument there."

Stop. Ignoring. Me. Just saying Friede's a corpse means jack all because we have characters that don't even have physical bodies and yet still retain their Ki. Soul + Body < Just Soul now?

Also that isn't how debates work. You claimed something and as such you have to substantiate it. It's not our job to debunk something that has nothing to be debunked. I brought up specific story elements to back up my point of view and listed out WHY I think Goku wins; you have simply claimed that Goku cannot do X thing and Friede has X Advantage without any real explanation as to why. Why does her advantage give her anything large over Goku, why can't Goku do X thing, and why X thing gives her an advantage over Goku. All you did was link to the fallacy page of which 90% of it agreed with my stance on the subject.

"but that isn't how other verses work on a fundamental level. Ki isn't a concept, nobody is amping their powers with it. You're saying every verse should have ki via life force."

This is false. SBA dictates that every verse's energies and such should equalize with eachother unless specifically different enough. Since Dark Souls doesn't even really touch on Ki or life Force, we can assume they equalize but just don't use it as such. SBA also would dictate that everybody has Chakra unless good evidence is brought up for the contrary.

"Simply saying "they are this strong thus this easy to detect" doesn't make sense because the verse doesn't specify that higher levels of potency translates to life-force. "

This is IN the SBA, Bambu.

"Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen."

If the opponent verse has no mention of Ki or Life Force, we can equalize them so they have such. We assume so to make a proper fight happen and not to unncessarily weaken one side. Unless of course you're telling me literally everyone else is immune to Genjutsu from Naruto.

"Fundamental. Basic. Bottom. Tons of verses never once introduce the concept of life-energy as an actual tangible force. "

Doesn't matter. All it means is that they never learned to harness it in the same manner as Dragon Ball. In order for your stance on the subject to work, you have to flat out ignore SBA. Plus I don't see people actively trying to weaponize life force in Dark Souls so even then I don't see it. They never tried to do so =/= They can't.

"But it doesn't because it doesn't address why they are that strong. In Dragon Ball it'd be as simple as "oh well he is that strong he has this much ki". What if a character is possessed, do you sense the possessor giving power or the character? If they amp their stats with items, does their ki increase? It can't be as that flat statement says it is. "

I'm not sure if this is ignorance or what... but Possession actually happens in Dragon Ball. Captain Ginyu's body swap anyone? And we see the result; Ginyu isn't used to Goku's body and doesn't know any of his techniques nor retains any of Goku's training and as such, Ginyu actually got weaker in comparison to Goku since Ki is a result of the Mind, Body and Soul as much as the physical body. Goku in Goku's Body > Ginyu in Goku's Body. So your question about the possession is answered in-verse already. In the case of actual possession where one's spirit takes control of a body, it'd be their Spirit/Incorporeal form + Body together without the enemy's mind. We see Baby also provide a good example where he himself is powerful already and taking control over stronger people gave him a larger boost since it's his own power + his host.

If you mean ACTUAL amping their stats so that their body/mind becomes stronger, then yes. Their ki would increase accordingly.

Again your arguments has to ignore SBA to work. Unless sufficient evidence is provided to the contrary, we assume everything has Ki or say, the Force. And even then we have evidence that simply being dead doesn't negate one's ability to use Ki so that isn't an argument that works.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Yes, and I understand that- but that isn't how other verses work on a fundamental level. Ki isn't a concept, nobody is amping their powers with it. You're saying every verse should have ki via life force. But let's talk about characters of unconventional physiology- an abstract, a deity, or, of course, an undead. Simply saying "they are this strong thus this easy to detect" doesn't make sense because the verse doesn't specify that higher levels of potency translates to life-force.

Verse equalization takes care of this.

If the other verse has an energy source, that isn't magic - as in Dragon Ball, there is a large distinction between magic and Ki, then it should be equalized to be Ki - and thus sensible.

 

[The_Divine_Phoenix]

Okay, while I don't intend to read through the enormous walls of text above, I take issue with this, Verse equalization shouldn't apply in this case. The closest thing the Souls verse has to a non magical energy source is fire, equalizing that to Ki is utterly absurd.

 

[Akreious]

"Okay, while I don't intend to read through the enormous walls of text above, I take issue with this, Verse equalization shouldn't apply in this case. The closest thing the Souls verse has to a non magical energy source is fire, equalizing that to Ki is utterly absurd."

We're not equalizing Fire to Ki. Never have we said that ever. However since the Souls verse has never said anything to the contrary, we can make it so that the Souls Verse has Ki; just they don't use it. Much like how Goku would have Chakra so Genjutsu would work on him even though he doesn't use a lick of Chakra.

Never was it stated that Ki had a "Network" throughout the body, yet the 64-Palms of a Hyuga would still work on Goku and such.

In order for Verse Equalization to not work (A Character has a Chakra Network, everybody has Ki and the Force, everyone has a magic system within them, etc), a verse has to make it explicit that equalization cannot happen. For instance, an attack that attacks the soul against a character that's explicitly from a universe where souls do not exist. That's a case of you just cannot Verse-Equalize "Soul Energy" to characters of that universe because it simply does not exist for that character. If this doesn't happen, we can and do assume that characters of other universes has such. A Chakra System, Ki, Runes, whatever.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Okay, while I don't intend to read through the enormous walls of text above, I take issue with this, Verse equalization shouldn't apply in this case. The closest thing the Souls verse has to a non magical energy source is fire, equalizing that to Ki is utterly absurd.

No, Souls characters use magic IIRC - so Goku wouldn't be sensing her magical power.

But she has a soul in that lifeless corpse of hers, right?

If so, then she should have a ki signature comparable to that of a regular human being as her soul would, according to verse equalization, produce Ki - which would still be sensible.

Even if Friede doesn't have a soul, and Goku can't sense her, he still has his enhanced senses to help him dodging an evading her attacks - as he did with Hit.

 

[The_Divine_Phoenix]

She does have a soul, but souls are the basis of magic in the Souls verse. Honestly, it's hard to say what should and shouldn't be considered magic in Souls.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Pretty sure it's all various types of magic. Sorceries, Fire Sorceries, Pyromancy, Miracles.

 

[The_Divine_Phoenix]

Miracles are just stories being recited though, Pyromancy is questionable. In Universe, I'd say only Sorceries would really be considered "magic". Sorceries are also the ones that specifically deal "magic" damage, though that could be attributed to game mechanics.

 

[Akreious]

"She does have a soul, but souls are the basis of magic in the Souls verse. Honestly, it's hard to say what should and shouldn't be considered magic in Souls."

So just because the soul is used for a different function, it suddenly can't work for another function...? If I use a Multi-Tool as a knife, I can't use the can opener part of it? I don't really see why this is a problem.

 

[The_Divine_Phoenix]

The idea here being that souls in Dark Souls are a magic based energy source and wouldn't be equalized with Ki for that reason.

 

[Akreious]

"The idea here being that souls in Dark Souls are a magic based energy source and wouldn't be equalized with Ki for that reason."

Except you said

"She does have a soul, but souls are the basis of magic in the Souls verse."

Magic is based off of souls, not the other way around.

There's no problems here. The Soul is being used for magic here. There's also the notion of Ki being made up of Vigor, Courage and the Mind. Meaning if you have these aspects, you have Ki. Also since you said you didn't read my wall of texts, I'll tl;dr.

Ki is made up of Vigour, Courage and Mind. The physical body does have a factor in how powerful one's Ki is but it is every fighter's goal to gain better Ki Control and become stronger in doing so. You don't neccessarily need to have a strong body (Although it helps a lot). Souls have Ki; the thing that goes to the afterlife. In Dark Souls, Spirits and Souls are very much a thing and are used for magic. However in Dragon Ball, there's a distinction between Souls and Ki. As such, since Ki is tethered to Souls, Dark Souls... Souls would have Ki. What it's used for has no relevance.

Also I'm roaming around on the Dark Souls wiki, where does it say Dark Souls Souls are magic-based? As far as I can see, it's a Soul. A Spirit.

 

[Wokistan]

I'm not entirely sure Friede has souls, and she loses them on death and resurrection anyways.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

^

I dunno what this talk of Souls = Magic comes from but Friede having a soul when you kill her isn't indicative of the soul actually being the one she was born with since she's sorta an Ashen One, she takes the souls of those she kills.

 

[The_Divine_Phoenix]

Magic in Souls is literally condensing and blasting souls at people. I suppose it would've been more accurate to say that Souls and magic are one and the same.

Also, finding information for Dark Souls is nowhere near as simple as just roaming around the wiki, everything is way more obscure.

As for equalization, I don't think having a soul is enough to be equalized to having Ki, I feel that the verse should show a type of supernatural energy similar to Ki (Chakra from Naruto for example) which Dark Souls does not.

 

[Akreious]

I'm not entirely sure Friede has souls, and she loses them on death and resurrection anyways.

Uhhh

Not sure she has souls...?

Edit:

"I dunno what this talk of Souls = Magic comes from but Friede having a soul when you kill her isn't indicative of the soul actually being the one she was born with since she's sorta an Ashen One, she takes the souls of those she kills. "

This actually doesn't help her case at all. It literally means she has more than one soul with her, which would mean more Ki assuming each soul is roughly at the level of a normal human.

"Magic in Souls is literally condensing and blasting souls at people. I suppose it would've been more accurate to say that Souls and magic are one and the same."

So... Different terms, same thing? I don't see people saying "Ki isn't Chakra because they're called differently, therefore Genjutsu doesn't work the TSB cannot negate a Kamehameha of the same level".

"Also, finding information for Dark Souls is nowhere near as simple as just roaming around the wiki, everything is way more obscure."

Yep, Agreed. Unless I go and play the game and scower everything relevant to souls, I will pretty much always be few steps behind everyone else in knowledge. Which is why I keep fighting for more evidence to be pushed out :L

"As for equalization, I don't think having a soul is enough to be equalized to having Ki,"

Even though I made a wall saying the contrary, sure I guess

"I feel that the verse should show a type of supernatural energy similar to Ki (Chakra from Naruto for example) which Dark Souls does not."

This has never been the case though? Even with the case of Chakra = Ki, By description, Ki should be more equalized to Natural Chakra. Senjutsu. Yet we still equalize Ki to Chakra. If a verse does not definitely rule out the possibility of an equalization, we equalize.

Heck we don't even know the full mechanics of Magic in Dark Souls. If they operate under the mechanics of utilizing someone's Soul then it is completely different from Magic in Dragon Ball and we can possibly equalize it to Ki since it's not equivalent to Dragon Ball's magic. Just because it has a different name doesn't mean it automatically equalizes to the same thing in another verse.

Actually the description you gave sounds a lot like Ki.

"Magic in Souls is literally condensing and blasting souls at people."

This is literally Ki in a nutshell. We see Ki being used for a variety of things from the Mafuuba to shooting lightning, so the simplicity of using Ki can't be used as an argument against equalizing.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yes. Ashen Ones absorb the souls of those they kill.

And... Phoenix, yes and no. Not all magic is that. Things like Soul Spear and stuff, sure.

 

[The_Divine_Phoenix]

That's why I was talking about what was and wasn't considered Magic. Most Sorceries are based on the soul, with the exception of some that draw energy from Crystals which act similarly to souls and the ones that draw energy from the Abyss.