Something About Layered Hax

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

At the suggestion of @Dereck03 and @ImmortalDread, I'm making a staff thread to apply the general idea from this thread. Layered hax are heavily misunderstood and abused on this site, such that anyone claiming any instance of hax becoming stronger automatically means that it becomes more layered, when that is not necessarily the case. This can result in massively inflated scaling chains leading to characters with dozens, hundreds, or even infinite layers of hax, so I propose that the following section be added to our current Hax page:

Layered Hax

Layering is a term used to refer to the ability of one's hax to break through resistance to such hax. For instance, if Character A is said to have resistance to Mind Manipulation, and Character B is able to successfully use Mind Manipulation on them, then Character B would have layered Mind Manipulation. In theory, this process can extend indefinitely - another character may be able to resist Character B's Mind Manipulation, and therefore have layered resistance. Another character may then be able to use Mind Manipulation on that character, making their hax even more layered, so on and so forth.

It is important to note that the ability to bypass resistances is the sole means through which layered hax should be measured. Other means of measuring potency - such as range, number of people affected, vague increases in strength, or multipliers - cannot be used to determine if hax are layered or not. For example, if a character is stated to have Soul Manipulation that is 10 times more powerful than normal, this would not be considered layered without direct showings or statements of bypassing resistance.

Layered hax should not be confused with Resistance Negation - the former can still be resisted, so long as one's own resistances match or surpass the number of layers of the ability in question. Resistance Negation, on the other hand, is the ability to remove or ignore resistances entirely, rendering the strength of one's resistances irrelevant.

Obviously, I'm open to suggestions on how to best word this, so long as the general idea of "you can only get layered hax from bypassing resistance; hax getting vaguely stronger isn't enough" remains intact.

 

[Flashlight237]

I can't exactly say how good I'd be in wording pages, but I can help provide examples. One example of layered hax is Spongebob Squarepants. In one episode of Spongebob Squarepants, we have probably the best visual for layered hax, in which Spongebob induces three layers of Madness Manipulation into Mrs. Puff after he turns into the padded cell Mrs. Puff was thrown into. In the last layer, Mrs. Puffs says, and I quote... "Oh, forget it..!"

In this example, Spongebob's Madness Manipulation would be under Madness Manipulation (3 Layers).

I think the Spongebob Squarepants example would be the best choice for the image to be used should a Layered Hax page be made.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I can't exactly say how good I'd be in wording pages, but I can help provide examples. One example of layered hax is Spongebob Squarepants. In one episode of Spongebob Squarepants, we have probably the best visual for layered hax, in which Spongebob induces three layers of Madness Manipulation into Mrs. Puff after he turns into the padded cell Mrs. Puff was thrown into. In the last layer, Mrs. Puffs says, and I quote... "Oh, forget it..!"

In this example, Spongebob's Madness Manipulation would be under Madness Manipulation (3 Layers).

I think the Spongebob Squarepants example would be the best choice for the image to be used should a Layered Hax page be made.

1. This wouldn't be a new page. It would be an addendum to a pre-existing page.
2. Does Mrs. Puff have a resistance to madness hax? If not, then it can't be used as an example, since layered hax are by definition hax that overcome a pre-existing resistance. Ofc, maybe I just misunderstood your explanation, so could you maybe provide scans?

 

[Flashlight237]

2. Does Mrs. Puff have a resistance to madness hax? If not, then it can't be used as an example, since layered hax are by definition hax that overcome a pre-existing resistance. Ofc, maybe I just misunderstood your explanation, so could you maybe provide scans?

Sure.



I've counted three layers of madness manip based on the sequence of mind trips here, which goes like this.

1. Mrs. Puff in the verse's idea of reality loses it and we see the first layer of mentality, where instead of Mrs. Puff, Spongebob gets arrested.
2. After 1st Layer Mrs. Puff loses it, we go into the second layer of mentality, where instead of Spongebob, Donna takes the wheel.
3. After 2nd Layer Mrs. Puff loses it, we go into the third layer of mentality, which put Mrs. Puff in more or less the same scenario in the beginning, after which Mrs. Puff says "Oh, forget it..!"

Basically it's less of a case of resistances, and more how many layers of Mrs. Puff's mind Spongebob's Madness Manip went through.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Sure.



I've counted three layers of madness manip based on the sequence of mind trips here, which goes like this.

1. Mrs. Puff in the verse's idea of reality loses it and we see the first layer of mentality, where instead of Mrs. Puff, Spongebob gets arrested.
2. After 1st Layer Mrs. Puff loses it, we go into the second layer of mentality, where instead of Spongebob, Donna takes the wheel.
3. After 2nd Layer Mrs. Puff loses it, we go into the third layer of mentality, which put Mrs. Puff in more or less the same scenario in the beginning, after which Mrs. Puff says "Oh, forget it..!"

Basically it's less of a case of resistances, and more how many layers of Mrs. Puff's mind Spongebob's Madness Manip went through.

I think this is taking the term "layer" overly literally. While this is definitely an interesting case of mindhax, I think it's completely separate from how we treat resistances (as in, I don't think it's reasonable to say this specific case of madness hax would work on someone who resists madness hax). I'm not sure how we would quantify this feat in terms of potency, but I don't think it's super relevant to the topic at hand. This thread and the proposed addition are about the ability to overpower resistances. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Deagonx]

I agree with this.

 

[Testarossa002]

This can be deleted

I think a clear example of layered hax is the Mangekyo>>Sharingan genjutsu in Naruto

Where regular sharingan users are almost always affected by mangekyo users even though the former have innate resistances to regular genjutsu.

You can check out the Naruto verse page for a more detailed explanation.

 

[Deagonx]

Obviously, I'm open to suggestions on how to best word this, so long as the general idea of "you can only get layered hax from bypassing resistance; hax getting vaguely stronger isn't enough" remains intact.

I think we can likely express the same thing with more brevity than the proposal. How about the following:

Layering is the ability to break through resistances to one's ability/hax. Successfully using an ability against a resistant character means that the ability is "layered." Further, resisting a layered ability is an indication of layered resistance, so on and so forth. An ability becoming stronger does not automatically mean it is layered unless it is shown to overcome a resistance. Crucially this is not the same as resistance negation, against which layering is irrelevant.

 

[Phoenks]

Something I want to bring up is that I think we need to be more clear with what exactly can be layered on the site. I've seen a lot of people claim certain abilities like "analytical prediction" or "fire manipulation" can be layered, when that doesn't really make much sense because these are things that have properly measurable levels of affect.

For example, someone who is simply more skilled with analytical prediction might be able to "bypass" someone who has resisted AP from someone less skilled than them, not because they're skill is layered, but because they're simply more skilled.

In the same way, someone who has fire powers capable of burning at 100000 degrees would bypass someone with 1000 degree heat resistance. Yet a lot of people will claim "layers" when this happens.

To show I'm not making this up, here's a page that lists Analytical Prediction layers;

Mori Jin

Mori Jin is the protagonist of The God of High School. Having been taught his grandfather's signature brand of Taekwondo, he frequently picked fights with others his age, having won three hundred street brawls before meeting Commissioner R. Although he broke the Judge's arm, Mori was ultimately...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Furthermore, should be noted that it isn't purely "hax" that can be layered either.

A good example would be precognition, which despite not normally bypassing durability or anything, can still be a layered ability, as see in One Piece with Haki.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I think we can likely express the same thing with more brevity than the proposal. How about the following:

This is good, yeah.

Something I want to bring up is that I think we need to be more clear with what exactly can be layered on the site. I've seen a lot of people claim certain abilities like "analytical prediction" or "fire manipulation" can be layered, when that doesn't really make much sense because these are things that have properly measurable levels of affect.

For example, someone who is simply more skilled with analytical prediction might be able to "bypass" someone who has resisted AP from someone less skilled than them, not because they're skill is layered, but because they're simply more skilled.

In the same way, someone who has fire powers capable of burning at 100000 degrees would bypass someone with 1000 degree heat resistance. Yet a lot of people will claim "layers" when this happens.

To show I'm not making this up, here's a page that lists Analytical Prediction layers;

Mori Jin

Mori Jin is the protagonist of The God of High School. Having been taught his grandfather's signature brand of Taekwondo, he frequently picked fights with others his age, having won three hundred street brawls before meeting Commissioner R. Although he broke the Judge's arm, Mori was ultimately...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Furthermore, should be noted that it isn't purely "hax" that can be layered either.

A good example would be precognition, which despite not normally bypassing durability or anything, can still be a layered ability, as see in One Piece with Haki.

This is also a good idea, although I'm not sure how to word it. I can write a draft later if nobody beats me to it.

 

[Deagonx]

Perhaps like this:

Layering is the ability to break through resistances to one's ability/hax. Successfully using an ability against a resistant character means that the ability is "layered." Further, resisting a layered ability is an indication of layered resistance, so on and so forth. An ability becoming stronger does not automatically mean it is layered unless it is shown to overcome a resistance. Crucially this is not the same as resistance negation, against which layering is irrelevant.

Moreover, layering should not be thought of as applying to abilities which intuitively can be overcome with magnitude, such as heat resistance or analytical prediction. For instance, it is not layered fire manipulation to burn someone with a heat source hotter than they can withstand.

 

[KLOL506]

@Planck69 @Theglassman12 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Elizhaa @LordGriffin1000 @Maverick_Zero_X @DarkDragonMedeus Your evaluation here would be appreciated.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Planck69 @Theglassman12 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Elizhaa @LordGriffin1000 @Maverick_Zero_X @DarkDragonMedeus Your evaluation here would be appreciated.

hey I got a ping this time!

Unfortunately, I got no opinion at the moment

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I agree with Deagonx's above description.

 

[Planck69]

Deagonx's draft looks good at a glance.

 

[KLOL506]

I have a question.

Does this draft codify that Resistance Negation > Layers?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I have a question.

Does this draft codify that Resistance Negation > Layers?

Yes. I personally view it similarly to durability negation vs durability, where the latter can be increased indefinitely, but the former should always be able to bypass it. This is, of course, excluding higher dimensional stats and smurf hax.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Perhaps like this:

I like this

 

[KLOL506]

Yes. I personally view it similarly to durability negation vs durability, where the latter can be increased indefinitely, but the former should always be able to bypass it. This is, of course, excluding higher dimensional stats and smurf hax.

Aite.

 

[Elizhaa]

Crucially this is not the same as resistance negation, against which layering is irrelevant.

What about cases in some series where there is a ranking or layer system for powers where the difference between the ranks can be absolute for ability working or not from their own definitions, like here?

Like, let's say, resistance negation at rank 4 can bypass resistances in its rank or below but will absolutely not work on higher ranks as they are seen as being absolutely superior.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

@Dereck03 gave me permission

What if the hax in question hasn't bypassed a resistance, but is consistently shown to have "layers" in some way?

example being
timestamps: 50:41,52:45.57:52

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

@Dereck03 gave me permission

What if the hax in question hasn't bypassed a resistance, but is consistently shown to have "layers" in some way?

example being
timestamps: 50:41,52:45.57:52

Given that it's stated to bypass resistance (assuming I'm not misunderstanding), I feel like everything else at that point is just unnecessary.

Crucially this is not the same as resistance negation, against which layering is irrelevant.

What about cases in some series where there is a ranking or layer system for powers where the difference between the ranks can be absolute for ability working or not from their own definitions, like here?

Like, let's say, resistance negation at rank 4 can bypass resistances in its rank or below but will absolutely not work on higher ranks as they are seen as being absolutely superior.

I feel like that's a bit of an exception to the norm when it comes to how resistance negation/layers normally work in fiction, so I'd just keep the resistance negation/layering description as is and elaborate on how it works in any individual verse.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Received permission from @EldemadeDityjon @Dereck03

I'd like to ask a general question given how the current description is worded and what is being proposed, I might've even asked several times already in the past but hopefully I can get concrete answers here.

We take it as a NLF to assume that power null can negate any ability regardless of how potent it is so bearing that in mind...

1. Can hax layering be determined by it's ability to not be negated by/ ability to bypass power null?
2. Can the hax be said to have layers equal to the layers of power null should the nullification not work? The power null layers follows the current description of bypassing resistance and gains up to 2 layers. If the hax isn't negated by this power null, can the hax be said to have a minimum of 2 layers itself? Assume that the hax/its user doesn't resist power nullification.

I think this is an important issue that needs to be answered to determine how to handle any problems that arise in vs threads about how layered power null and hax interact with each other.

Edit: By consequence, a character's hax not being affected by power null means they automatically gain a resistance to power null so this won't seem like an issue to those who come to that realization however, power nullification can be split into two types

1. The ability to stop someone from using their powers (offensive)
2. The ability to negate powers/ the effects of powers used against you (defensive)

Resistance to power null only comes into play against the offensive usage as you're resisting basically having your powers suppressed/ turned off entirely however, the same cannot be sad for the defensive usage as there's nothing affecting you directly.

 

[Theglassman12]

Why would its ability to bypass power null be a factor in it being layered hax in the first place? That's not the hax itself being layered, it's just the resistance to power null that would be layered at best, and that's assuming it would have resistance to power null and said resistance being bypassed in the first place.

Either way I'm fine with this proposal, and Deagon's draft looks good to me.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Why would its ability to bypass power null be a factor in it being layered hax in the first place? That's not the hax itself being layered, it's just the resistance to power null that would be layered at best, and that's assuming it would have resistance to power null and said resistance being bypassed in the first place.

Either way I'm fine with this proposal, and Deagon's draft looks good to me.

I've made an edit regarding this matter, please take a look at it

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah still not seeing how that ties to layers of the hax itself rather than just resistance to power null.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Given that it's stated to bypass resistance (assuming I'm not misunderstanding), I feel like everything else at that point is just unnecessary.

Its not that it bypasses resistance, theres just no method of resistance because of the infinite mystic eyes

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Its not that it bypasses resistance, theres just no method of resistance because of the infinite mystic eyes

Uhh then it's resistance negation I guess?

 

[Deagonx]

I am not able to address the examples and questions at the moment, as I am a bit overwhelmed with IRL stuff. I trust Fuji's judgment on the matter, but I would caution against taking any of our explanations about specific scenarios as gospel, as we are just sort of shooting-from-the-hip and may not have all the information we need to make an informed decision about it.

 

[SeijiSetto]

i asked deagon for permission

Perhaps like this:

Moreover, layering should not be thought of as applying to abilities which intuitively can be overcome with magnitude, such as heat resistance or analytical prediction.

what magnitude exactly are you measuring analytical prediction by.

how many moves ahead predicted?
how many DIFFERENT options predicted?

heat resistance can be quantified by temperature units, but i (at least not immediately) don't see how you quantify someone's ability to predict another.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I am not able to address the examples and questions at the moment, as I am a bit overwhelmed with IRL stuff. I trust Fuji's judgment on the matter, but I would caution against taking any of our explanations about specific scenarios as gospel, as we are just sort of shooting-from-the-hip and may not have all the information we need to make an informed decision about it.

Right, hax layers are the kind of thing that can vary heavily between verses. I think the draft we have now does a good job of covering most cases, even if it could never account for every possible exception or outlier. That said, do you think we have enough staff support to apply your draft?

i asked deagon for permission

what magnitude exactly are you measuring analytical prediction by.

how many moves ahead predicted?
how many DIFFERENT options predicted?

heat resistance can be quantified by temperature units, but i (at least not immediately) don't see how you quantify someone's ability to predict another.

Ultimately it'd depend on how the verse treats the analytical prediction. Characters can have it for different reasons, so there are naturally different ways to measure it.

 

[Deagonx]

That said, do you think we have enough staff support to apply your draft?

We would need to get some admins involved, since this involves changing standards.

@Agnaa @Mr._Bambu @Firestorm808 @DontTalkDT @Sir_Ovens

What do you guys think of adding this draft to our hax page?

Layering is the ability to break through resistances to one's ability/hax. Successfully using an ability against a resistant character means that the ability is "layered." Further, resisting a layered ability is an indication of layered resistance, so on and so forth. An ability becoming stronger does not automatically mean it is layered unless it is shown to overcome a resistance. Crucially this is not the same as resistance negation, against which layering is irrelevant.

Moreover, layering should not be thought of as applying to abilities which intuitively can be overcome with magnitude, such as heat resistance or analytical prediction. For instance, it is not layered fire manipulation to burn someone with a heat source hotter than they can withstand.

 

[SeijiSetto]

(i asked deagon for perms to comment [again])

Ultimately it'd depend on how the verse treats the analytical prediction. Characters can have it for different reasons, so there are naturally different ways to measure it.

that's kinda vague. heat being measured in terms of magnitude is self explanatory, but lumping analytical prediction in there as an example of something measurable with no further specification?

i'd argue most verses DON'T have a way of measuring it, because your ability to predict someone's movements generally falls under skill - something notably unquantifiable.
it's not usually elaborated on beyond "oh my gooood this dude can read this other dude like a book by like listening to his bloodflow and seeing his muscles or by reading his intent" or some bullshit like that, and again - you can't put a number to something like that.
if a verse has ana-pre in a quantifiable way, it's probably the odd one out compared to how others treat it rather than vice versa

tl;dr idk what you would call it but i most certainly disagree with analytical prediction being used as an example of something quantifiable, i think it is Not A Good Idea.

 

[Phoenks]

(i asked deagon for perms to comment [again])

that's kinda vague. heat being measured in terms of magnitude is self explanatory, but lumping analytical prediction in there as an example of something measurable with no further specification?

i'd argue most verses DON'T have a way of measuring it, because your ability to predict someone's movements generally falls under skill - something notably unquantifiable.
it's not usually elaborated on beyond "oh my gooood this dude can read this other dude like a book by like listening to his bloodflow and seeing his muscles or by reading his intent" or some bullshit like that, and again - you can't put a number to something like that.
if a verse has ana-pre in a quantifiable way, it's probably the odd one out compared to how others treat it rather than vice versa

tl;dr idk what you would call it but i most certainly disagree with analytical prediction being used as an example of something quantifiable, i think it is Not A Good Idea.

Analytical Prediction is a little harder to quantify that fire is, sure, but it's still not something we should be ascribing layers to, because "skill" or even intelligence as a whole is something we do quantify on this site based purely on feats.

And I would not say it's that difficult, either. Usually, we can tell what feats of analytical prediction are more impressive than others, than same as most abilities on the site. Someone who can predict 1000 moves in the future is going to be superior to someone who can only read your next few moves. Someone who can read muscle twitches, blood pressure, air pressure, etc to predict moves may also superior to someone who can only read muscle twitches.

I don't think it's really that deep. It's simply tied to how skilled someone is, based on how they're showcased in the story. It's how we go about quantifying literally everything on the site.

And giving "skill" layers would be like claiming someone has "layered intelligence" for being able to outsmart another character.

 

[SeijiSetto]

(i harassed deagon once more)

Analytical Prediction is a little harder to quantify that fire is, sure, but it's still not something we should be ascribing layers to, because "skill" or even intelligence as a whole is something we do quantify on this site based purely on feats.

i agree. my sole gripe was exactly as i said:

i most certainly disagree with analytical prediction being used as an example of something quantifiable, i think it is Not A Good Idea.

And I would not say it's that difficult, either. Usually, we can tell what feats of analytical prediction are more impressive than others, than same as most abilities on the site. Someone who can predict 1000 moves in the future is going to be superior to someone who can only read your next few moves. Someone who can read muscle twitches, blood pressure, air pressure, etc to predict moves may also superior to someone who can only read muscle twitches.

"more impressive" and "superior" aren't putting numbers to it.
you're just comparing the two, which further reinforces my point about it being an unquantifiable thing.

again, i agree it shouldn't be layered, but i just want it taken out of the sentence in the draft where it's bunched up with fire manip as an example of things that can have numbers or magnitude (such as degrees) attached to it lol

 

[Dereck03]

i asked deagon for permission

(i asked deagon for perms to comment [again])

(i harassed deagon once more)

Just to note that Deagon as thread mod can only give permission to 1 post.

 

[Deagonx]

Just to note that Deagon as thread mod can only give permission to 1 post.

At a time. We are able to renew this/do it multiple times, so long as we have confirmed it each time. At least, that was the understanding I reached with Agnaa.

 

[Dereck03]

Huh, i didn't knew that was a thing, gotcha.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

We would need to get some admins involved, since this involves changing standards.

@Agnaa @Mr._Bambu @Firestorm808 @DontTalkDT @Sir_Ovens

What do you guys think of adding this draft to our hax page?

I think it's a good summary of what layered abilities are and how they work. Acceptable to put into the page.