Layer's vs scaling chains.

[LordGinSama]

Now this is a subject that's becoming increasingly more annoying to deal with, namely because of how easily abused "layers" are made out to be.


The Issue

---

Let's get right into it shall we? As we all know people tend to abuse layers to inflate a characters powers and abilities while simultaneously confusing a scaling chain for layers of negation, some some verses even having a supposed "100 layers." which is ridiculous to even think.

I keep seeing the term layered being thrown around for power's and abilities, which typically leads to inflation. Such as nonsense like "Steve>>>>> Paul >>>> Todd >>> Gregory>>>>> Amanda >>>>> Bob >>>>>> Frank >>>> Ralph's fear manipulation." being passed as actual layers. The issue with this however is that this shouldn't qualify for layered hax. That's just a simple scaling chain, which doesn't necessarily mean anyone of the aforementioned characters are capable of outright negating the other's resistances.


Actual layers would be whenever character A bypasses the resistances of character B who's resistance allowed them to withstand fire's that teach temperature hotter than the core of the sun.



For something to be considered layered it should be stated or shown that a character can bypass another's resistance. Not just "character A being stronger than character B so that means A can automatically bypass B's resistance despite A never being shown to be able to do so." As this leads to a massive amount of inflation for the simple sake of inflation to make things seem more impressive than they really are. There's at least 12 separate verses that abuses this issue but I won't be naming them of course.


The Solution?

---

Stop allowing these scaling chains to be passed as layers. In order to qualify for layered hax it should be outright stated that a character can bypass another's resistance, not just them being stronger.



Essentially, a resistance needs to be shown being overcome in order to be truly layered.



Feel free to discuss.

 

[KingTempest]

People actually here doing that?

 

[Nierre]

I think the issue is that there aren't many official layers in verses, so people just spitball/bullshit their layers.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I've been thinking this for ages. Too many verses get away with this despite how blatantly it ignores the way layers even work. Obviously, this rule already exists because there's an unspoken agreement on how layers work, but I think it'd be good to have this written down so people can't get away with layer wank so easily. Maybe we could add a section on layered hax to the hax page?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I mean valid as hell, TBH layered scaling for resistances and hax can get real confusing to me sometimes

 

[Kachon123]

People actually here doing that?

Not going to name names, but I will name verses. NNT is prolly the biggest abuser of this.

 

[Nierre]

Not going to name names, but I will name verses. NNT is prolly the biggest abuser of this.

LMAO

you dont even gotta say the name, the verse is enough to understand

 

[Dereck03]

Yah, because of a recent thread where someone showed a massive scaling chain and equalizing that to layers, I literally also discussed the same thing a few days ago on discord

Stop allowing these scaling chains to be passed as layers. In order to qualify for layered hax it should be outright stated that a character can bypass another's resistance, not just them being stronger.

The best solution.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Wow finally.

Doesn't one piece do this with haki as well

 

[KingTempest]

Doesn't one piece do this with haki as well

no

 

[ImmortalDread]

This thread should be general discussion in nature, since it does not upgrade or downgrade any verse or character; it is intended solely for discussing the idea.

 

[LordGinSama]

Good example of actual layers for something is Sukuna vs Jogo from JJK. Jogo despite having an incredible heat resistance, was instantly turned into a crisp against Sukuna's fire arrow.

So something like this would make sense for layers.

 

[LordGinSama]

This thread should be general discussion in nature, since it does not upgrade or downgrade any verse or character; it is intended solely for discussing the idea.

Yeah agreed.

 

[Kachon123]

Good example of actual layers for something is Sukuna vs Jogo from JJK. Jogo despite having an incredible heat resistance, was instantly turned into a crisp against Sukuna's fire arrow.

So something like this would make sense for layers.

That's just superior heat? Or am I missing something

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What about my suggestion to add this to the hax page tho

 

[LordGinSama]

What about my suggestion to add this to the hax page tho

Any ideas for the wording?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Going back to the discussion, my suggestion:

VS Battles Glossary

This page will focus on providing some insight about commonly used terms here on the Vs Battles Wiki and on the external Vs Battles Wiki Forum. While some of these terms are exclusive to our platform, you may see some of the these terms being used in other community-based discussion forums.

vsbattles.fandom.com

We can add a small description on the term “layer” and explain briefly on how we usually handle it.

I don't mind creating an entire page for the term either, but I don't think it is much to explain?

This was my explanation if anyone is interested:

Layered-Resistance. What is it?

Is there a wiki page that explains Layered Resistances? Can anyone actually define it? I keep seeing people mention but I have no idea what they mean.

vsbattles.com

Layers of resistance in general in fictional context represents increasing degrees of difficulty or obstacles that need to be surpassed. If there is a layered ability X, and someone resisted it, he gains a layered resistance to the said ability X.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Any ideas for the wording?

Maybe something like:

Layered Hax

Layering is a term used to refer to the ability of one's hax to break through resistance to such hax. For instance, if Character A is said to have resistance to Mind Manipulation, and Character B is able to successfully use Mind Manipulation on them, then Character B would have layered Mind Manipulation. In theory, this process can extend indefinitely - another character may be able to resist Character B's Mind Manipulation, and therefore have layered resistance. Another character may then be able to use Mind Manipulation on that character, making their hax even more layered, so on and so forth.

It is important to note that the ability to bypass resistances is the sole means through which layered hax should be measured. Other means of measuring potency - such as range, number of people affected, vague increases in strength, or multipliers - cannot be used to determine if hax are layered or not. For example, if a character is stated to have Soul Manipulation that is 10 times more powerful than normal, this would not be considered layered without direct showings or statements of bypassing resistance.

Layered hax should not be confused with Resistance Negation - the former can still be resisted, so long as one's own resistances match or surpass the number of layers of the ability in question. Resistance Negation, on the other hand, is the ability to remove or ignore resistances entirely, rendering the strength of one's resistances irrelevant.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

We can add a small description on the term “layer” and explain briefly on how we usually handle it.

We can just add a subsection to the Hax page, which we already do for smurf hax.

 

[ImmortalDread]

We can just add a subsection to the Hax page, which we already do for smurf hax.

I don't know, but in a serious tone, I don't think it requires a lot of importance to insert an entire section, unless we are establishing new standards, which I don't find (the OP is simply explaining the already practiced way to assign “layering”). As I have said, I think we could simply add those terms (scaling chain and layer) to the VSBW glossary and give a brief explanation.

It should not be complicated, but this is only my opinion

 

[Jaakor48]

Maybe something like:

Layered Hax

Layering is a term used to refer to the ability of one's hax to break through resistance to such hax. For instance, if Character A is said to have resistance to Mind Manipulation, and Character B is able to successfully use Mind Manipulation on them, then Character B would have layered Mind Manipulation. In theory, this process can extend indefinitely - another character may be able to resist Character B's Mind Manipulation, and therefore have layered resistance. Another character may then be able to use Mind Manipulation on that character, making their hax even more layered, so on and so forth.

It is important to note that the ability to bypass resistances is the sole means through which layered hax should be measured. Other means of measuring potency - such as range, number of people affected, vague increases in strength, or multipliers - cannot be used to determine if hax are layered or not. For example, if a character is stated to have Soul Manipulation that is 10 times more powerful than normal, this would not be considered layered without direct showings or statements of bypassing resistance.

Layered hax should not be confused with Resistance Negation - the former can still be resisted, so long as one's own resistances match or surpass the number of layers of the ability in question. Resistance Negation, on the other hand, is the ability to remove or ignore resistances entirely, rendering the strength of one's resistances irrelevant.

One question tho, if someone's hax gets 10x more powerful and then comes against someone who could resist him when he was 10x weaker

Who gets the benefit of the doubt?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I don't know, but in a serious tone, I don't think it requires a lot of importance to insert an entire section, unless we are establishing new standards, which I don't find (the OP is simply explaining the already practiced way to assign “layering”). As I have said, I think we could simply add those terms (scaling chain and layer) to the VSBW glossary and give a brief explanation.

It should not be complicated, but this is only my opinion

I think it's very important, given how commonly hax layers are brought up in VS threads, and how commonly people abuse the lack of hard standards in order to wank verses to the high heavens.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Then feel free to create a staff thread and suggest the draft to be added to hax page. I will support the decision either way.

 

[Dereck03]

I think it's very important, given how commonly hax layers are brought up in VS threads, and how commonly people abuse the lack of hard standards in order to wank verses to the high heavens.

The hax herarchies should be treated as layers given their nature of superiority while maintaining the same power but at a different level.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The hax herarchies should be treated as layers given their nature of superiority while maintaining the same power but at a different level.

What? What hax hierarchies?

 

[Dereck03]

What? What hax hierarchies?

I did not explain well, hax that come in herarchies in a specific context should qualify, due to the very nature of the hierarchies, same power but at a different level including resistances.

Anyway, i'd supporting the idea of the staff thread for the addition.

 

[Zabazab]

I think that statements such as "X's hax is better than Y's hax" could be taken as a piece of evidence that the hax is superior to whatever could be considered baseline, while still being inferior to even a single extra layer of hax, no matter how big the "hax scaling chain" is.

 

[SeijiSetto]

Actual layers would be whenever character A bypasses the resistances of character B who's resistance allowed them to withstand fire's that teach temperature hotter than the core of the sun.

using heat as an example for layers is a bad idea because heat is actually quantifiable. the core of the sun (as per your example) 15 million K, so
A's heat > B's resistance > 15 million Kelvin
that's a scaling chain right there, not layers.

layers are for unquantifiable shit like mind manip or fear manip, you can't measure those in any terms.

 

[Epsilon_R]

using heat as an example for layers is a bad idea because heat is actually quantifiable. the core of the sun (as per your example) 15 million K, so
A's heat > B's resistance > 15 million Kelvin
that's a scaling chain right there, not layers.

layers are for unquantifiable shit like mind manip or fear manip, you can't measure those in any terms.

Was about to say this.

A's heat could very well bypass B's resistance via hotter temperature. Unless of course A's fire is outright stated to have inferior heat than B's resistance

 

[SeijiSetto]

Was about to say this.

A's heat could very well bypass B's resistance via hotter temperature. Unless of course A's fire is outright stated to have inferior heat than B's resistance

another example: say i could grab a hot pan right off the stove but sticking my hand in an open flame burns.
that's not "layered fire manip", it's just hotter. same goes for ice, or anything that can be quantified like that.

 

[First_Witch]

Hax whose potency is measureable should not fall into any funky layer/potency business. You can put actual numbers on, for example fire manipulation and its resistance (Degree). The whole potency shit came from VSB getting rid of potency by quantity as the only measure of power for esotheric/metaphysical hax (Soul, Mind, probably concept).

Layered fire manipulation, do ya'll want to be hit or what. That shit is solved, its called celsius.

 

[KingTempest]

That shit is solved, its called celsius.

 

[KLOL506]

@Planck69 @Theglassman12

 

[First_Witch]

Mortifying

 

[Eseseso]

EASY agree.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

You can mark me as agreeing. I've seen "chains" into the thousands.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I agree!

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I've followed @ImmortalDread's advice (let it be known that this is the only time I will ever do this) and made a staff thread to apply this to the Hax page.

Something About Layered Hax

At the suggestion of @Dereck03 and @ImmortalDread, I'm making a staff thread to apply the general idea from this thread. Layered hax are heavily misunderstood and abused on this site, such that anyone claiming any instance of hax becoming stronger automatically means that it becomes more...

vsbattles.com

 

[Huesito88]

Your trying to include "infinite scaling" chains into your thread also?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Idk what you're referring to, sorry.