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Some Swamp thing stuff I found
- Thread starter Hykuu
- Start date
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Jm De Matteis doesn't care about, never writes about Morrisonid Cosmology.
To say that his view of the Presence is just an aspect of the Overmonitor would be premature considering that Morrisonid Cosmology strongly opposes who and what God is to the JMD Cosmology.
JMD was even asked about who Elaine Belloc and how strong she was, he doesn't even know or even read about Sandman. JMD does his own thing. Morrison does his own thing. You try to merge their cosmologies, it turns into a bloody hell of a mess in which all attempts to rationalize a united DC Cosmology or Composite DC Cosmology requires a billion tons of fanfiction that had never been confirmed by either writer.
To say that his view of the Presence is just an aspect of the Overmonitor would be premature considering that Morrisonid Cosmology strongly opposes who and what God is to the JMD Cosmology.
JMD was even asked about who Elaine Belloc and how strong she was, he doesn't even know or even read about Sandman. JMD does his own thing. Morrison does his own thing. You try to merge their cosmologies, it turns into a bloody hell of a mess in which all attempts to rationalize a united DC Cosmology or Composite DC Cosmology requires a billion tons of fanfiction that had never been confirmed by either writer.
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I agree that there are serious contradiction between the writers, but Grant Morrison's cosmology is what has been accepted as the official structure of the DC multiverse, so we have to try our best to use that as a basis for our evaluations.
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I didn't recall ever implying Grant had no power over Vertigo. If anything, I'm surprised he actually carried some of the Gaiman cosmology to his.
But Grant never portrayed the Presence as 1-A though. Perhaps Matteis or Carey do that, but their cosmologies are overlayed and outdated. So how can we know that the Presence in maisntream DCU is currently 1-A?
You consider that he literally placed Heaven and Hell below Limbo itself. Which is a place where Quantum Super Position still exists.
But Grant never portrayed the Presence as 1-A though. Perhaps Matteis or Carey do that, but their cosmologies are overlayed and outdated. So how can we know that the Presence in maisntream DCU is currently 1-A?
You consider that he literally placed Heaven and Hell below Limbo itself. Which is a place where Quantum Super Position still exists.
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The basis of Presence being 1-A is from two writers (Carey and Matteis) who are not even the primal basis for DC's Cosmic Hierarchy anymore. The former guy thinks there's just a Million Universes in DC and the latter's cosmology are mostly outliers that are barely repeated in other stories. Is there any evidence that Morrison actually portrays Presence as 1-A?
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Matteis literally portrays the verse as having infinite dimensions and in JLA he created Pralaya, a 1-A being who he has stated is weaker than God.Nether nine said:
Grant literally stated God (The Source (Kirbys which he stated as beyond all definitons and diversions), The Void and Overmonitor
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Well, I am probably the wrong person to ask about this, but Matthew thought that the way we treat the Overmonitor as the true God and the Presence as an aspect works best for our purposes.
An alternative might be to merge the two profiles.
An alternative might be to merge the two profiles.
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@ant
Perhaps different Keys may also function, but I am not an expert on the matter
Perhaps different Keys may also function, but I am not an expert on the matter
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Of course, we do need more expert opinion
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One less controversial problem in DC Comics solved. Also, remember to fix and get larger sizes for some scans that you found & added in your God profile since they look very blurry and unreadable.Hykuu said:
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1A swamp thing????
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Which doesnt really mean anything, really. Not all gods/beings from the Sphere of the Gods are 5D. Just because heaven exists in Sphere of the Gods doesnt mean that the Presence is limited there too.The realm of the Endless is also in The Sphere of the Gods but it was also shown that the Endless embodies concept that extends across the entire creation, maybe even beyond. Destiny was even shown to exist outside the Multiverse and that his book contains all of creation.Nether nine said:
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I dont agree with merging the Presence and the Monitor Mind based on Morrison's statement that the Monitor Mind is God. I think he doesnt meant it as the Monitor Mind being the literal Judeo-Christian God but it being something comparable to it. He even said that The Monitors are Angels but I dont think we should take that literally, we know that the Monitors are different to the angels that appeared in DC/Judeo-Christian angels.
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Neil Gaiman initially planned to put the Presence above the Endless in power. That's why there was a statement from that Muslim character that "Allah" charged Dream with overseeing well.. dreams. And Lucifer (being a creation of the Presence) being more powerful than Dream.
But as time went on, he started using the Presence as a metaphor for shoehorned atheism in his writing. The idea that Abrahamic religion being fictional under Dreams and Hopes and being no different from other Dream shaped Gods. Events involving the Presence are literally reversible under Dreams. We've seen this in the Dreaming spinoff where the Garden of Eden was reversed meaning the Presence was also reversed.. Carey also did the same and followed through.
The Current Endless do not abide by this "Judeo-Christian > Endless" hierarchy so much. Neil Gaiman literally ignores M. Carey spinoff and went ahead and retconned it, stated that it was Father Time and Mother Night who created the Multiverse, NOT the Presence or Lucifer or Michael.
To make matters worse, M. Carey's Lucifer Spinoff is not canon anymore. We know this because Lucifer doesn't have his scar in the current Sandman Universe/Lucifer 2018. that he got from Mazikeen at the near end of Lucifer.
For the Endless, it was easy to prove they are not bound to their realms in the layer. For example, the 1-A Monitors are CAPABLE of dying. Like Zillo Villa. So we know Death of the Endless comes for the deaths of 1-A Monitors as well.
But you cannot just tell me, that just because the Endless are boundless to their own realms now, that this will apply to the Presence. We need evidence of them not being bound to it. Otherwise, the idea of a 1-A Presence is nothing more but a thing of the past writers who don't even have power over DC's Cosmology anymore. Because a Presence Credited Creation (which is under the 1-A Presence analogues) is absolutely ignored by the dominating Monitorid Cosmology.
If we want evidence of a 1-A Mainstream DC (Not Vertigo) Presence, we must find it in Monitorid Cosmology (which is the dominating canon in DC now, not past Sandman stuff.), so far no evidence.
But as time went on, he started using the Presence as a metaphor for shoehorned atheism in his writing. The idea that Abrahamic religion being fictional under Dreams and Hopes and being no different from other Dream shaped Gods. Events involving the Presence are literally reversible under Dreams. We've seen this in the Dreaming spinoff where the Garden of Eden was reversed meaning the Presence was also reversed.. Carey also did the same and followed through.
The Current Endless do not abide by this "Judeo-Christian > Endless" hierarchy so much. Neil Gaiman literally ignores M. Carey spinoff and went ahead and retconned it, stated that it was Father Time and Mother Night who created the Multiverse, NOT the Presence or Lucifer or Michael.
To make matters worse, M. Carey's Lucifer Spinoff is not canon anymore. We know this because Lucifer doesn't have his scar in the current Sandman Universe/Lucifer 2018. that he got from Mazikeen at the near end of Lucifer.
For the Endless, it was easy to prove they are not bound to their realms in the layer. For example, the 1-A Monitors are CAPABLE of dying. Like Zillo Villa. So we know Death of the Endless comes for the deaths of 1-A Monitors as well.
But you cannot just tell me, that just because the Endless are boundless to their own realms now, that this will apply to the Presence. We need evidence of them not being bound to it. Otherwise, the idea of a 1-A Presence is nothing more but a thing of the past writers who don't even have power over DC's Cosmology anymore. Because a Presence Credited Creation (which is under the 1-A Presence analogues) is absolutely ignored by the dominating Monitorid Cosmology.
If we want evidence of a 1-A Mainstream DC (Not Vertigo) Presence, we must find it in Monitorid Cosmology (which is the dominating canon in DC now, not past Sandman stuff.), so far no evidence.
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As for Lucifer and The Presence, I think that it is too early to say that Carey's run has been retconned, and regardless we can still scale Lucifer from being stated as being far more powerful than Dream and likely the second most powerful being in existence after the Presence in the original Sandman run.
The Abrahamic (Gaiman is Jewish if I remember correctly) themes also continued with Glory as an apparent representative of The Presence in Sandman: Overture.
The Abrahamic (Gaiman is Jewish if I remember correctly) themes also continued with Glory as an apparent representative of The Presence in Sandman: Overture.
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Nether I'm going to be straight, these bibles you are posting really don't prove anything and it also just shows how ignorant you are, not trying to sound like a d*ck here but it would save all of us alot of time if you stop trying to justify what you are trying to.
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What do you mean? You make it seem like there's a Me vs All of You dichotomy here. There isn't one. You literally promoted a page with a fake lying tweet which took me to point out, but you're never ignorant right? I'm always wrong, you're always right. Got it, you never put out any arguments against me either. You're just "yousa ignorant" you want to be straight instead of a calm reply like what Ant just did? Tone yourself down before you unknowingly create enemies unneccessarily. It's a simple discussion about comics, nothing more.Hykuu said:
@Antvasima
Gaiman is only ethnically Jewish. But he has identified as an agnostic, borderline atheist. Same thing how not all Arabs are Muslim or not all Indians are Hindu. You can read the signs, that's how his cosmology works. Gods of Religion and Mythology are just dreams. Commentary on religious metaphors from an atheistic perspective.
It's not that Carey's run has been retconned. It's just ignored by other writers. But Carey still holds everything in the classic Sandman as canon. But the current Lucifer 2018 portrays Lucifer as not having a scar, disconnecting it from the Carey run already. And Gaiman doesn't seem to hold the Presence as the Creator of the Multiverse anymore, he holds Time and Night as doing it.
My point is that we cannot use past portrayals of the Presence from Carey or Matteis as evidence that the current Monitorid Cosmology holds Presence as 1-A. I'm still trying to look, asking many forums for an answer, so far nobody gave it for me.
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Again, Lucifer and The Presence were stated outright as far more powerful than The Endless in the original Sandman run, and a missing scar is nowhere near enough proof to state that Carey's run is invalidated.
We are not going to downgrade The Presence and Lucifer, period. It is best if you stop bothering us about it.
We are not going to downgrade The Presence and Lucifer, period. It is best if you stop bothering us about it.
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I don't think you should downgrade Lucifer and Presence considering those articles are based on Carey's run. I never even suggested such a thing.
I'm just asking if in the light of DC's current cosmic hierarchy in which Dream explicitly states the Forger created the Universes for the Orrerry. is the Presence still 1-A. Considering the Overmonitor took over the title of being the Void beyond all Voids over the Presence. Same thing as to how Beyonder isn't 1-A and High 1-B anymore. Is there evidence that he still is? There isn't? Alright.
I'm just asking if in the light of DC's current cosmic hierarchy in which Dream explicitly states the Forger created the Universes for the Orrerry. is the Presence still 1-A. Considering the Overmonitor took over the title of being the Void beyond all Voids over the Presence. Same thing as to how Beyonder isn't 1-A and High 1-B anymore. Is there evidence that he still is? There isn't? Alright.
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In sandman universe lucifer imprisoned death of endless and in original run death credits angels for creating the multiverse.
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@Ant
Ant, I 9000% agree that the Presence is 1-A. He is portrayed 1-A by probably 3 other writers on top of Carey and Matteis. (It's just that it's only under Matteis where he seems to be Tier 0 because Matteis is a spiritual guy who writes the most favorable 1-A stuff for the Presence). Meaning Presence is 1-A by 5 writers and his 1-A stuff are NOT outliers.
You should never downgrade Lucifer either, why should you downgrade him just because of his current predicament of being sealed inside a pocket dimension in his 2018 story run? Nobody will ever debate him.
Just because Morrison places the Presence below Limbo, that doesn't mean you should downgrade him anymore than you should downgrade Beyonder just because he's not 1-A/High-1B anymore. If anything, Morrison seemingly portraying the Presence below Quantum Super Position is the TRUE outlier. Thus you should never ever ever use it to judge him. If you downgrade the Presence from 1-A, I would absolutely protest you.
The reason why I bring all of this stuff up, is to prove how mentally broken DC's Cosmology is. In response to various users here who seem to be influencing you that it is somehow a good idea to merge the profiles of the Overmonitor and the Presence. We have next to 0 sufficient evidence they are related to each other. Under Morrison's Cosmology, the Presence is hardly 1-A so that's a start as to why that's a totally totally bad idea. We cannot mix the contradicting Cosmology iterations of DC of the current one, to the old ones like that. When the current contradicts many of the past.
I might be a bother, but I am bothering you to convince you all not to merge their profiles. I'm bothering you all to not bother the profiles of the Presence and to please just lay off for now. I do not want them upgraded nor downgraded. Just keep them as they are. With everything I pointed out, I think we should just leave them be and judge the characters on their own merits.
Ant, I 9000% agree that the Presence is 1-A. He is portrayed 1-A by probably 3 other writers on top of Carey and Matteis. (It's just that it's only under Matteis where he seems to be Tier 0 because Matteis is a spiritual guy who writes the most favorable 1-A stuff for the Presence). Meaning Presence is 1-A by 5 writers and his 1-A stuff are NOT outliers.
You should never downgrade Lucifer either, why should you downgrade him just because of his current predicament of being sealed inside a pocket dimension in his 2018 story run? Nobody will ever debate him.
Just because Morrison places the Presence below Limbo, that doesn't mean you should downgrade him anymore than you should downgrade Beyonder just because he's not 1-A/High-1B anymore. If anything, Morrison seemingly portraying the Presence below Quantum Super Position is the TRUE outlier. Thus you should never ever ever use it to judge him. If you downgrade the Presence from 1-A, I would absolutely protest you.
The reason why I bring all of this stuff up, is to prove how mentally broken DC's Cosmology is. In response to various users here who seem to be influencing you that it is somehow a good idea to merge the profiles of the Overmonitor and the Presence. We have next to 0 sufficient evidence they are related to each other. Under Morrison's Cosmology, the Presence is hardly 1-A so that's a start as to why that's a totally totally bad idea. We cannot mix the contradicting Cosmology iterations of DC of the current one, to the old ones like that. When the current contradicts many of the past.
I might be a bother, but I am bothering you to convince you all not to merge their profiles. I'm bothering you all to not bother the profiles of the Presence and to please just lay off for now. I do not want them upgraded nor downgraded. Just keep them as they are. With everything I pointed out, I think we should just leave them be and judge the characters on their own merits.
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Well, that seems reasonable enough. I suppose that keeping them the way they are seems best then. However, I am still very uneasy with keeping The Writer as DC's supreme being.
