Some Changes in Undertale

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Not really with a punch.

Either way that's kinda off topic. Point being Frisk in a non-fight situation has almost non-existent DT. Also proved how they probably didn't have Asgore-level DT when caught up by Flowey in the Pacifist Ending. Since Papyrus was capable of blocking the attacks that were damaging Frisk.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

0 Determination Frisk has way better dura (Wall level) than AP. Anything that can survive the heat of Hotland, which can turn a styrofoam cup and the water inside it into vapor virtually instantly, is Wall level. There's also the fact that Frisk suffered no injuries whatsoever when falling into the Underground. Yes, the flowers softened their fall, but that is only why they were totally unharmed, and not why they survived. We even see in the opening that Chara falls into the Underground (which is a fall from near the peak of a mountain to somewhere subterranean) on their face, and survives with at the absolute worst only a couple of broken bones, which is not possible for any real life human, who would be killed on impact from a drop of that height.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

"0 Determination Frisk has way better dura (Wall level) than AP"

if DEF acts like a boost, then that means that Frisk has 0 boost at BoG.

But, that also means that 0 ATK is Wall level (And via scaling from Snowdrake's mom, who has -12 ATK)

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Frisk is a human as opposed to a monster. It seems like their stats have the potential to function slightly differently, since Frisk's damage at 0 attack is likely coming from attacking monsters and their own Determination (as opposed to LV), whereas their defense is just natural durability. Furthermore, Amalgamates' stats seem to vary even more so. Jerry, a monster with 0 ATK, cannot even attack. Like...at all. However, Snowdrake's mom, who has -12 ATK, can hurt Frisk. I would put this more as Amalgamates having some slightly higher form of durability negation, as being imbued with unnatural Determination seems to make them function in an odd manner, such as Memoryhead's HP going up from being attacked instead of down.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

^Eh, I disagree with it. Snowdrake's Mom's stats seems to point out how weak and pathetic she is, wheras all the others Amalgamates stats's are more there for mindfuck value. Note that Jerry not attacking could be more that he has a "support" role than that he can't attack at all. The other with a 0 stat is Glad Dummy, who doesn't attack you.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

^Eh, I disagree with it. Snowdrake's Mom's stats seems to point out how weak and pathetic she is, wheras all the others Amalgamates stats's are more there for mindfuck value. Note that Jerry not attacking could be more that he has a "support" role than that he can't attack at all. The other with a 0 stat is Glad Dummy, who doesn't attack you.

True, but similar to someone like Sans (only without added damage), she only does chip damage, which is the same regardless of any defense modifiers you may have, which seems more to be durability negation to a minor degree than showing -12 attack to be Wall level.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well via gameplay mechanic you can't have any damage lower than 1, which may as well apply to any monster so I doubt we should apply dura negation to her. Especially since none of the others Amalgamate has shown that in combat.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

None of the other Amalgamates have shown that exact ability in combat, but all alter the world or themselves in some way via their unnatural Determination. Assuming -12 ATK is still naturally wall level (via hurting a Frisk who is completely opposed to fighting) would mean anything with even the lowest positive attack would be exponentially greater.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

And it's not exactly contradicting with anything if it is. Sans survived the Hotland heat too, mind you, despite having 1 HP and 1 DEF.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

And it's not exactly contradicting with anything if it is. Sans survived the Hotland heat too, mind you, despite having 1 HP and 1 DEF.

Sans has snow in the roof even in hotland...

 

[ThePerpetual]

Ahh, this again...

The problem here, really, is that we simply don't know, and every viable solution has unattractive drawbacks:

If we leave everything at Unknown, the vast majority of Undertale pages become unusable in debates, and they do nothing to help standard wiki visitors get a firm handle on the general ballpark of their strength. That's no good.

If we go through with Aiden's proposal, then sure, they might be that powerful, but we have no solid reasoning to actually explain these ratings on the pages themselves. Subjective opinion statements are fine to have, but they do not a stat block make.

We could simply stop using Check Stat scaling and go by feats alone, but that leaves most all of the verse at Unknown again, and they scale to each other regardless so the point would be rendered moot.

If we were to linearly scale stats presicely, using 2-B UtU and Low 7-C Tsunderplane (which I still don't agree with but hey, what did I literally just say about opinions), then we'd have stuff like "Everyone in Undertale with 60-something and up ATK/DEF is potentially up to 2-C, since they're closer stat-wise to Chara than Tsunderplane". Similar logic is applied to Mettato NEO even now, actually. ...I really hope I don't have to explain why "hurr durr all top tiers are Universal because reasons" is a bad idea, and I don't just mean how Base Undyne harming Asgore (30 ATK/DEF difference) would suddenly become wildly infeasible.

Same for just brushing all bullet board feats off as mere abstractions and unmeasurable; sure, everyone wouldn't break Tier 8 and all the downplayers would be happy, but that's so contradictory to our standards and just generally stupid that it isn't going to happen.

The lesson to be learned here, ladies and gents, is that Undertale really just isn't conducive to Versus Debating as practiced on sites like ours. Between the wild inconsistencies, vagueness of combat, quirky sense of humor, lack of fourth wall, pinning down a tier for them is nigh impossible. I'm not 100% comfortable with what we have now, but it's better than any real alternative: surely, I don't need to explain why straight-up deleting them isn't going to happen in a thousand years. Really, there's not much of a real solution to be had, and that's that. :/