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Intro:
This is a very lengthy thread will be going over numerous statements, feats and cals from the movies, novels and creative team statements such as:
1. Enchantress confirmed to be weaker than the Old Gods and Uxas and why that is significant.
2. Doomsday stated to be able to explode and destroy the planet, why it's in one attack given the context, as well as why the krypton moon busting is not as vague as the site presumes it is.
3. The correct way to calculate the world engine.
4. Why the top tiers in the verse scale to the motherboxes.
5. Multiple statements implying Darkseid is the strongest villain in the universe.
Please take the time to read all of this and understand the points being made.
Should be noted that 5-B Motherboxes was accepted here.
1. Enchantress Scaling (High 6-A)
Firstly, it needs to be established that Enchantress’ world destroying machine in Suicide Squad isn’t a miracle machine that she doesn’t scale to. Quite the contrary as the official suicide squad novelisation confirms.
With her machine,
Stated she would cover the earth in darkness, grinding their cities and mountains into dust, wiping them out and destroying the entire world.
Textbook surface wiping.
It stated numerous time that the machine is merely using her power. With her stating: “I am the power that empowers my machine, my life gives it strength”, “powered not by electricity but by her magic”. It’s then stated that she didn’t need the machine to crush humanity but rather with natural power and was doing this for fun. It was basically sadistic way of punishing humanity for forsaking serving her and her brother as Gods in servitude of technology instead. The machine was basically a tool for her to throw around with her power. She should scale to her machines energy output. This is EXTREMELY significant because enchantress was around and alive on earth during Darkseid’s invasion.
The timeline goes as follows:
Enchantress and her brother come to earth in 4358 B.C…Darkseid and his forces invade earth ≈ 3000 B.C…Enchantress and her brother are sealed/killed in 1984 B.C. We can extrapolate that Darkseid invaded earth around 3000 B.C because The War of the Gods was stated to have happened 5000 years ago and ares directly ended the united world that was formed to stand against darkseid to which Hippolyta described as it being "for a brief time" and "it did not last", meaning that Darkseid's invasion happened not too long before The War of the Gods, with the amazons saying the fire to alert the world of man has not burned in 5000 years.
This is EXTREMELY important because during the live trailer breakdown of zsjl, when ZS was asked how strong Uxas was at the time he invaded earth his answer was “ONLY THE OLD GODS COULD STAND AGAINST HIM”, despite the fact that enchantress was around at that time. This means that young Uxas>>enchantress. In that same live he then, says Uxas, steppenwolf and doomsday are all comparable in strength, meaning everyone in that ww tier and above should scale. This is consistent with the fact that Ww was created as a weapon to be used against The Old Gods and should logically be somewhere around their peaks, with ares stating that she had the power to "restore him to the God he once was" after feeding off her energy.
When enchantress tells her brother of her plan his response is “Will God stand for this?” To which she says “They’ve forgotten about God and he’s forgotten about them”. This implies that there was a higher deity than them, that they could not defy. With recent confirmations that enchantress having connections with Apokolips by David Ayer, it’s very likely that “God” they were talking about was Darkseid as he was the God of apocalypse. This is also consistent with the fact that earth had actually forgotten about Darkseid and he had “lost earths location. Just some food for thought.
“Amader Waller stated she was the most powerful metahuman they’ve encountered so no one should scale”.
This statement is made of enchantress in her fodder form without a heart. The one that fodder characters like deadshot can scrap with and block attacks from her. The statement was also made in the montage where Waller is listing all the members of the squad and is likely in reference to her being the strongest in the squad. Amanda also shouldn’t necessarily even be a reputable source at this point in time. It’s still very early on in the dc universe and its stated she started researching about metahumans after superman died to look for solutions to protect themselves in his absence, with ss taking place only a few months AFTER his death Most metahumans are still in hiding or are conspiracy theories. It’s far too early for her to be actually educated on the exact limit of these beings power.
superman is not a metahuman, the flash is canonically holding back, cyborg canonically became an incel after he was turned and did not go out at all, aquaman is under water most of the time, and Wonder Woman only made short appearances in ww1 and the abandoned port of Gotham city in the entirety of her time in the world of man, with her becoming a superhero again at the end of ww2017, AFTER ss2016. There's no proof she's properly educated on the upper limits of their powers, Snyders statement should supersede. They also don't necessarily even have to contradict each other seeing as Enchantress can be the strongest metahuman and others can still scale to her, while The Old Gods surpass her, they can all still be in the same tier, even with if you take this statement as fact.
2. Doomsday Scaling (At least High 6A, possibly 5B)
In the bvs watch party, ZS said Doomsday would charge an explosion that would destroy the world here:
(2:45:16)
“Booshing” is referring to doomsday releasing a mass of energy that his body absorbed from attacks against him. This means that ww and superman can charge doomsday enough for him to destroy the world in a few hits.
It needs to be established that the statement isn NOT saying doomsday would explode repeatedly and would eventually destroy the earth but rather he would do this in one attack. The first interpretation doesn’t even make sense given how his powers work. The quote being “The notion was that he would charge up and that’s how he would eventually destroy the world”. The “he would charge up” part implies a singular explosion, and the fact that he needs to charge up for this in itself means it can only be one explosion for reasons below.
This is the only interpretation that makes sense because a hypothetical fourth evolution doomsday could not be harmed by anyone or anything on the planet at this point enough to force him to charge and explosion. We know this because doomsday adapted past nukes in his 2nd evolution and then superman one shotted him, forcing him to adapt again, to which he gained enough strength to overpower supes and ww. Fourth evolution doomsday would absolute one shot supes and ww instantly.
It’s stated numerous times throughout the movie that superman can destroy earth if he wanted to and humanity would NOT be able to stop him by batman who has been monitoring his power and that narrative is batman's entire motivation throughout the film. This means superman>anything humanity is capable of. It's also stated that Wonder Woman's "booooosh" is more powerful than any bomb that has ever been made. So as stated above nothing on the planet would be able to charge him to explode past this fourth evolution that was seconds away from happening as scene here:
Just directly before he is killed he’s literally charging up another boosh and is about to explode before he’s stopped. This is why superman does not waste time to sacrifice his life, doesn’t bother giving Diana the spear even though she wouldn’t be weakened by it. There was simply not enough time and they knew if he evolved again, no one would be able to stop him and Zack confirms that explosion would have ended the world. This means the only way doomsday could explode and destroy the planet is by superman and ww charging him up.
In conclusion this hypothetical fourth explosion HAS to be the world ending one seeing as if doomsday evolves again after this, nothing and no one will be able to harm him as he would have evolved even further past superman and ww.
Supporting evidence:
(Ik this next one isn’t sufficient on its own, it’s just supporting evidence that these beings can be on this level, don’t attempt to debate against this point as it’s just supplementary and isn’t intended to stand on its own) . I’m referring to the shattered moon on krypton. Steppenwolf is stated to have battled doomsday. This is obviously referring to the original doomsday on krypton.
Common rebuttals to this feat.
3. The correct way to calc the World Engine. (High 6A, possibly higher)
I made a thread on this a while back in which I went back n forth with a staff member for a bit. Made a huge rebuttal to their points and he/she just replied with “I still disagree” with no logical rebuttal, then proceeded to ghost the thread, But here I am again. The man of steel official novelization and vfx clarifies what is actually doing and how it works.
Firstly it should be noted that the world engine is confirmed to be hitting earth with a beam of focused gravity, or waves of gravity , as well as specifically stated to be g-force numerous times by both Hamilton and the narrator of the novel.
In doing this they were increasing the earths gravity, its mass and its density.
And then later stated that if it kept up, humans would die from the gravity alone because our internal organs will be crushed. It is VERY IMPORTANT to keep it at the back of your mind that it’s doing all of this by hitting it with pure focused gravity and/or g-force and not the other way around. It is NOT a direct mass or density generator, rather these are side effects of the earth’s gravity increasing because it obviously doesn’t make sense for it to increase without its mass or density increasing either. The end goal to increase the earths gravity to be akin to krypton's. Very easy way to calculate this.
firstly we have to figure out how much it was increasing the earths surface gravity. According to this, surface gravity would need to be around 5gs to start crushing internal organs. Using stardestroyer.net’s planetary parameter, we can find out the stats of the hypothetical earth, with 5gs to get the total gravitational energy the WE would be supplying earth in its run.
The WE would be pumping enough gravity to bring the earths gbe from 2.240E+32 to 5.600E+33.
5.600E+33-2.240e+32= 5.376e+33
The WE would need to have generated 5.376e+33 joules to increase the earths GBE like that.
When asked how long it would take,Hamilton says metropolis has a few hours and the rest of the planet has a few weeks. He then later on says that his first calc wrong, the gravitational field is growing faster and that metropolis only has less than an hour. His calculations would have to be an exponential one and not a linear addition. This is because he states that the world engine and the black zero are sending the gravitational waves back and forth to each other with each ping having greater energy than before. With this information we can extrapolate that the new time frame would also be less than a week because dr. Hamilton himself stated that each gravitational wave gets stronger per pound so his formula to get the original few weeks timeframe would be exponential and not a liner addition or something akin to that. I have a very VERY long calc that shows the an exact timeframe with complex algebra and exponential functions but it’s really not worth the result, (if you are interested can link it below) so for now lets just assume one week as a lowball.
There are 604800 seconds in a week.
The WE hits the earth every 3.85 seconds
Approximately 157091 hits in a week.
5.600E+33/157091 =
3.5648128e+28 joules or Multi-Continental
In the initial thread where I proposed this, the staff member disagreed because he thought that it was stated that it was going to compress the planets core with him thinking that statement must definitely mean it's shrinking the planet therefore it should not scale to the GBE of the planet. this interpretation is wrong for many reasons as I'll explain below.
1. It's never even stated compress the words used are "made dense" and "compact", which feeds the interpretation above of adding mass without increasing size, thus increasing density as well density.
2. Absolutely no where is it ever stated that the planet would change in size throughout the entirety of the movie, novel and interviews.
3. It is physically impossible to compress solid matter, only gases can be compressed. Especially when you're doing it by increasing it with gravity.
4. Even if we say it was shrinking the planet which is NOT supported, it wouldn't matter because it's not doing this via shrinking ray, it's literally just supplying the earth enough gravity to the point where it pulls itself in.
even when I asked chat got how to calculate the total energy of a machine doing this, it suggested we use the earth's gbe and agreed with this method. here is the conversation.
In conclusion: the world engine is specifically stated to be increasing the earths gravity by sending focused gravitational waves into the planet and should scale to increasing its total GBE and not just “surface wiping”. This is NOT crazy at all seeing as in the nightmare scene in man of steel, Zod who is very familiar with world engines imagined it increasing earths gravity so much to the point that it shattered the moon and and drew the earth closer to the sun by a very significant distance as seen here:
They are even capable of turning Krypton's core into a neutron star. The mass to energy conversion wouldn't even be an outlier since it's increasing the earths mass via gravity waves which are confirmed to travel at the speed of light. Although I'm unfamiliar with how to calculate how much energy it would take the do all of those things, I am open to suggestions below.
4. Mother box scaling (5-B)
Firstly it should be established that it’s never once stated, implied or asserted that the characters are not capable of overpowering the boxes. Whenever they ask why can’t they destroy the boxes, it’s always some hax reason and not an Ap issue. Rather, it is emphasised throughout the movie that the mother boxes cannot be stopped with brute force NOT because no one scales to it but because they are INDESTRUCTIBLE as shown here.
The context being if u try and blow one up with brute force you’ll only strengthen its bond, however if you can weaken its bond to eliminate that hax ability, you can harm/destroy them with brute force.
An example of this is when victor links with the mother boxes, the flash can generate a catastrophic energy surge (granted it was with a little bit of prep time) that will break its defences propelling victor into the unity, fusing with the boxes. With there being a simulation showing what happens. This proves with enough force/energy you can harm the boxes baring, you find a way to bypass its hax.
“The mother boxes defences don’t scale to it”. It is incredibly disingenuous to say that this Planet busting machine that operates using electricity as well as shown here, is somehow vulnerable to Small Country level’s of electricity in anyway whatsoever. Especially when it’s being done with share raw power and no hax. We know the boxes don’t need to be fully formed to be used as shown when they resurrected superman, created cyborg, yet when it initially rejects cyborg as shown here, the energy wave just makes him scream a little, but he is able to fend it off.
Once again solidifying that Barry momentarily overpowered/harmed the boxes, and the characters scale to it. Again it is never once stated, implied or asserted they don’t scale to the boxes.
Zeus did the same thing. Zeus has absolutely no connection to the mother boxes like cyborg does. This leads me to believe he has limited outer durability negation as he didn’t need a conduit like the flash did. He’s physically overpowering them in the most blatant way possible as he’s forcing them to split beyond their will.
The final nail in the coffin for the argument that they scale to the boxes is the fact Superman destroyed them as Desaad says here. At first I thought this was talking about its functionality but I was wrong. There’s evidence for physical damage being done to the boxes. After he splits the unity the mother boxes go from having a glossy shiny look to losing their reflectiveness and beginning to look matte and rough, as well as having what appears to be burnt marks on its surface. Here’s a before and after:
This is also consistent with the fact that it wasn’t necessarily the apokoliptian characters that were scared of superman but the boxes themselves, instantly rising as soon as he died.
“He didn’t do it alone” that’s irrelevant to the point being made, the point being that these characters should scale to the boxes.
“Cyborg hacked into it” as we see from the visual and the statements regarding the plan, all cyborg did was:
“So why did the motherboxes kill them all at the end?” The motherboxes are stated to be able to rearrange matter at the will of its master on an atomic scale. All this means is that the JL do not have resistance to atomic durability negation which is coherently accepted by the site. There is no circular scaling. To argue that they didn’t survive it because they were too weak, you would have to prove that they have a resistance to atomic durability negation, yet couldn’t withstand this because of a power issue.
In conclusion, the motherboxes were extremely troublesome because of hax reasons and not necessarily raw power with the JL and Zeus having feats that should place them on its level.
5. There are also 3 statements that imply that darkseid is greater than other villain in the universe.
Darkseid was intended to be the grand final boss of the dceu that would be the biggest challenge the earth had ever faced. It makes a lot of sense for him to be the stronger than anything doomsday or enchantress are capable of.
These aren't even the highest interpretation of the characters with it being stated that wonder woman's explosion/scream when Steve Trevor died "made the stars in space tremble", likely being literal. The jl2 and 3 storyboards also say all the stars in the universe will go out because of what Darkseid's power over anti-life on earth, in reponse to green lantern saying some stars have gone missing, once again being literal.
part two will be brief going over some speed stuff.
thanks for reading
Agree: Maverick_Zero_X, DarkDragonMedeus, Ozcantabak, GrayCraft_Dragon, GoldenVoid, Planck69, Hellbeast, Viott
Neutral:
Disagree
This is a very lengthy thread will be going over numerous statements, feats and cals from the movies, novels and creative team statements such as:
1. Enchantress confirmed to be weaker than the Old Gods and Uxas and why that is significant.
2. Doomsday stated to be able to explode and destroy the planet, why it's in one attack given the context, as well as why the krypton moon busting is not as vague as the site presumes it is.
3. The correct way to calculate the world engine.
4. Why the top tiers in the verse scale to the motherboxes.
5. Multiple statements implying Darkseid is the strongest villain in the universe.
Please take the time to read all of this and understand the points being made.
Should be noted that 5-B Motherboxes was accepted here.
1. Enchantress Scaling (High 6-A)
Firstly, it needs to be established that Enchantress’ world destroying machine in Suicide Squad isn’t a miracle machine that she doesn’t scale to. Quite the contrary as the official suicide squad novelisation confirms.
With her machine,
Stated she would cover the earth in darkness, grinding their cities and mountains into dust, wiping them out and destroying the entire world.
Textbook surface wiping.
It stated numerous time that the machine is merely using her power. With her stating: “I am the power that empowers my machine, my life gives it strength”, “powered not by electricity but by her magic”. It’s then stated that she didn’t need the machine to crush humanity but rather with natural power and was doing this for fun. It was basically sadistic way of punishing humanity for forsaking serving her and her brother as Gods in servitude of technology instead. The machine was basically a tool for her to throw around with her power. She should scale to her machines energy output. This is EXTREMELY significant because enchantress was around and alive on earth during Darkseid’s invasion.
The timeline goes as follows:
Enchantress and her brother come to earth in 4358 B.C…Darkseid and his forces invade earth ≈ 3000 B.C…Enchantress and her brother are sealed/killed in 1984 B.C. We can extrapolate that Darkseid invaded earth around 3000 B.C because The War of the Gods was stated to have happened 5000 years ago and ares directly ended the united world that was formed to stand against darkseid to which Hippolyta described as it being "for a brief time" and "it did not last", meaning that Darkseid's invasion happened not too long before The War of the Gods, with the amazons saying the fire to alert the world of man has not burned in 5000 years.
This is EXTREMELY important because during the live trailer breakdown of zsjl, when ZS was asked how strong Uxas was at the time he invaded earth his answer was “ONLY THE OLD GODS COULD STAND AGAINST HIM”, despite the fact that enchantress was around at that time. This means that young Uxas>>enchantress. In that same live he then, says Uxas, steppenwolf and doomsday are all comparable in strength, meaning everyone in that ww tier and above should scale. This is consistent with the fact that Ww was created as a weapon to be used against The Old Gods and should logically be somewhere around their peaks, with ares stating that she had the power to "restore him to the God he once was" after feeding off her energy.
When enchantress tells her brother of her plan his response is “Will God stand for this?” To which she says “They’ve forgotten about God and he’s forgotten about them”. This implies that there was a higher deity than them, that they could not defy. With recent confirmations that enchantress having connections with Apokolips by David Ayer, it’s very likely that “God” they were talking about was Darkseid as he was the God of apocalypse. This is also consistent with the fact that earth had actually forgotten about Darkseid and he had “lost earths location. Just some food for thought.
“Amader Waller stated she was the most powerful metahuman they’ve encountered so no one should scale”.
This statement is made of enchantress in her fodder form without a heart. The one that fodder characters like deadshot can scrap with and block attacks from her. The statement was also made in the montage where Waller is listing all the members of the squad and is likely in reference to her being the strongest in the squad. Amanda also shouldn’t necessarily even be a reputable source at this point in time. It’s still very early on in the dc universe and its stated she started researching about metahumans after superman died to look for solutions to protect themselves in his absence, with ss taking place only a few months AFTER his death Most metahumans are still in hiding or are conspiracy theories. It’s far too early for her to be actually educated on the exact limit of these beings power.
superman is not a metahuman, the flash is canonically holding back, cyborg canonically became an incel after he was turned and did not go out at all, aquaman is under water most of the time, and Wonder Woman only made short appearances in ww1 and the abandoned port of Gotham city in the entirety of her time in the world of man, with her becoming a superhero again at the end of ww2017, AFTER ss2016. There's no proof she's properly educated on the upper limits of their powers, Snyders statement should supersede. They also don't necessarily even have to contradict each other seeing as Enchantress can be the strongest metahuman and others can still scale to her, while The Old Gods surpass her, they can all still be in the same tier, even with if you take this statement as fact.
2. Doomsday Scaling (At least High 6A, possibly 5B)
In the bvs watch party, ZS said Doomsday would charge an explosion that would destroy the world here:
(2:45:16)
“Booshing” is referring to doomsday releasing a mass of energy that his body absorbed from attacks against him. This means that ww and superman can charge doomsday enough for him to destroy the world in a few hits.
It needs to be established that the statement isn NOT saying doomsday would explode repeatedly and would eventually destroy the earth but rather he would do this in one attack. The first interpretation doesn’t even make sense given how his powers work. The quote being “The notion was that he would charge up and that’s how he would eventually destroy the world”. The “he would charge up” part implies a singular explosion, and the fact that he needs to charge up for this in itself means it can only be one explosion for reasons below.
This is the only interpretation that makes sense because a hypothetical fourth evolution doomsday could not be harmed by anyone or anything on the planet at this point enough to force him to charge and explosion. We know this because doomsday adapted past nukes in his 2nd evolution and then superman one shotted him, forcing him to adapt again, to which he gained enough strength to overpower supes and ww. Fourth evolution doomsday would absolute one shot supes and ww instantly.
It’s stated numerous times throughout the movie that superman can destroy earth if he wanted to and humanity would NOT be able to stop him by batman who has been monitoring his power and that narrative is batman's entire motivation throughout the film. This means superman>anything humanity is capable of. It's also stated that Wonder Woman's "booooosh" is more powerful than any bomb that has ever been made. So as stated above nothing on the planet would be able to charge him to explode past this fourth evolution that was seconds away from happening as scene here:
Just directly before he is killed he’s literally charging up another boosh and is about to explode before he’s stopped. This is why superman does not waste time to sacrifice his life, doesn’t bother giving Diana the spear even though she wouldn’t be weakened by it. There was simply not enough time and they knew if he evolved again, no one would be able to stop him and Zack confirms that explosion would have ended the world. This means the only way doomsday could explode and destroy the planet is by superman and ww charging him up.
In conclusion this hypothetical fourth explosion HAS to be the world ending one seeing as if doomsday evolves again after this, nothing and no one will be able to harm him as he would have evolved even further past superman and ww.
Supporting evidence:
(Ik this next one isn’t sufficient on its own, it’s just supporting evidence that these beings can be on this level, don’t attempt to debate against this point as it’s just supplementary and isn’t intended to stand on its own) . I’m referring to the shattered moon on krypton. Steppenwolf is stated to have battled doomsday. This is obviously referring to the original doomsday on krypton.
Common rebuttals to this feat.
- I don’t trust this magazine”. It’s from the Hollywood spotlight magazine in which they interview the voice actor for steppenwolf. Here’s a link u can buy it if u want to check it out for yourself. The burden of proof is on you to prove why it’s not reliable.
- “We don’t know how he destroyed the moon.” Well that may be true we do know how doomsdays behave. We know that doomsday doesn’t just crash out and destroy inanimate objects for no reason unless he’s exploding. He goes after life. So he either shattered it via collateral damage or he booshed it away. either way he should scale.
- “It just says steppenwolf survived, he could literally have gotten one shot”. The magazine quote reads “Steppenwolf survived a battle with doomsday. That should tell you how strong he is.” It is incredibly disingenuous to say he got one shot as the quote was intended to show that steppenwolf was formidable and not just a descriptive text of a past event. The only feat that doomsday has is the moon shattering feat leading us to believe “that should tell you how strong he is” is in reference to that. Even the literal meaning for the word “battle” does not support being one shot but can be described as a sustained struggle.
- “It’s far higher than anything else in the verse.” That’s just blatantly wrong as this thread will show.
- “He didn’t destroy it he just split it”. This is false, as we get to see a 3D view of it here, it’s clearly destroyed and all over the place. Even the INverse krypton astrology that humans were able to decode from the scout-ship says it’s been destroyed and exists and a cloud of debris implying parts of it has been pulverised.
- "It says he has nigh immortality". that's clearly in reference to his longevity as he has been around for thousands of years. As we see in JL he doesn't have region and can still die if enough damage is inflicted.
- It says lex works with steppenwolf in the movie”. This doesn’t contradict anything in the snydercut. In the opening scene we literally see that lex luthor has made in contact with steppenwolf. You can’t prove lex wasn’t working with him as their conversation was off screened. With lex saying at the end of bvs “The God is dead and they’ve heard it and they’re coming”, implying future plans have been shared. Him working with apokolips also isn’t unheard of and was supposed to be explored further in the future movies as the story boards suggest.
3. The correct way to calc the World Engine. (High 6A, possibly higher)
I made a thread on this a while back in which I went back n forth with a staff member for a bit. Made a huge rebuttal to their points and he/she just replied with “I still disagree” with no logical rebuttal, then proceeded to ghost the thread, But here I am again. The man of steel official novelization and vfx clarifies what is actually doing and how it works.
Firstly it should be noted that the world engine is confirmed to be hitting earth with a beam of focused gravity, or waves of gravity , as well as specifically stated to be g-force numerous times by both Hamilton and the narrator of the novel.
In doing this they were increasing the earths gravity, its mass and its density.
And then later stated that if it kept up, humans would die from the gravity alone because our internal organs will be crushed. It is VERY IMPORTANT to keep it at the back of your mind that it’s doing all of this by hitting it with pure focused gravity and/or g-force and not the other way around. It is NOT a direct mass or density generator, rather these are side effects of the earth’s gravity increasing because it obviously doesn’t make sense for it to increase without its mass or density increasing either. The end goal to increase the earths gravity to be akin to krypton's. Very easy way to calculate this.
firstly we have to figure out how much it was increasing the earths surface gravity. According to this, surface gravity would need to be around 5gs to start crushing internal organs. Using stardestroyer.net’s planetary parameter, we can find out the stats of the hypothetical earth, with 5gs to get the total gravitational energy the WE would be supplying earth in its run.
The WE would be pumping enough gravity to bring the earths gbe from 2.240E+32 to 5.600E+33.
5.600E+33-2.240e+32= 5.376e+33
The WE would need to have generated 5.376e+33 joules to increase the earths GBE like that.
When asked how long it would take,Hamilton says metropolis has a few hours and the rest of the planet has a few weeks. He then later on says that his first calc wrong, the gravitational field is growing faster and that metropolis only has less than an hour. His calculations would have to be an exponential one and not a linear addition. This is because he states that the world engine and the black zero are sending the gravitational waves back and forth to each other with each ping having greater energy than before. With this information we can extrapolate that the new time frame would also be less than a week because dr. Hamilton himself stated that each gravitational wave gets stronger per pound so his formula to get the original few weeks timeframe would be exponential and not a liner addition or something akin to that. I have a very VERY long calc that shows the an exact timeframe with complex algebra and exponential functions but it’s really not worth the result, (if you are interested can link it below) so for now lets just assume one week as a lowball.
There are 604800 seconds in a week.
The WE hits the earth every 3.85 seconds
Approximately 157091 hits in a week.
5.600E+33/157091 =
3.5648128e+28 joules or Multi-Continental
In the initial thread where I proposed this, the staff member disagreed because he thought that it was stated that it was going to compress the planets core with him thinking that statement must definitely mean it's shrinking the planet therefore it should not scale to the GBE of the planet. this interpretation is wrong for many reasons as I'll explain below.
1. It's never even stated compress the words used are "made dense" and "compact", which feeds the interpretation above of adding mass without increasing size, thus increasing density as well density.
2. Absolutely no where is it ever stated that the planet would change in size throughout the entirety of the movie, novel and interviews.
3. It is physically impossible to compress solid matter, only gases can be compressed. Especially when you're doing it by increasing it with gravity.
4. Even if we say it was shrinking the planet which is NOT supported, it wouldn't matter because it's not doing this via shrinking ray, it's literally just supplying the earth enough gravity to the point where it pulls itself in.
even when I asked chat got how to calculate the total energy of a machine doing this, it suggested we use the earth's gbe and agreed with this method. here is the conversation.
In conclusion: the world engine is specifically stated to be increasing the earths gravity by sending focused gravitational waves into the planet and should scale to increasing its total GBE and not just “surface wiping”. This is NOT crazy at all seeing as in the nightmare scene in man of steel, Zod who is very familiar with world engines imagined it increasing earths gravity so much to the point that it shattered the moon and and drew the earth closer to the sun by a very significant distance as seen here:
They are even capable of turning Krypton's core into a neutron star. The mass to energy conversion wouldn't even be an outlier since it's increasing the earths mass via gravity waves which are confirmed to travel at the speed of light. Although I'm unfamiliar with how to calculate how much energy it would take the do all of those things, I am open to suggestions below.
4. Mother box scaling (5-B)
Firstly it should be established that it’s never once stated, implied or asserted that the characters are not capable of overpowering the boxes. Whenever they ask why can’t they destroy the boxes, it’s always some hax reason and not an Ap issue. Rather, it is emphasised throughout the movie that the mother boxes cannot be stopped with brute force NOT because no one scales to it but because they are INDESTRUCTIBLE as shown here.
The context being if u try and blow one up with brute force you’ll only strengthen its bond, however if you can weaken its bond to eliminate that hax ability, you can harm/destroy them with brute force.
An example of this is when victor links with the mother boxes, the flash can generate a catastrophic energy surge (granted it was with a little bit of prep time) that will break its defences propelling victor into the unity, fusing with the boxes. With there being a simulation showing what happens. This proves with enough force/energy you can harm the boxes baring, you find a way to bypass its hax.
“The mother boxes defences don’t scale to it”. It is incredibly disingenuous to say that this Planet busting machine that operates using electricity as well as shown here, is somehow vulnerable to Small Country level’s of electricity in anyway whatsoever. Especially when it’s being done with share raw power and no hax. We know the boxes don’t need to be fully formed to be used as shown when they resurrected superman, created cyborg, yet when it initially rejects cyborg as shown here, the energy wave just makes him scream a little, but he is able to fend it off.
Once again solidifying that Barry momentarily overpowered/harmed the boxes, and the characters scale to it. Again it is never once stated, implied or asserted they don’t scale to the boxes.
Zeus did the same thing. Zeus has absolutely no connection to the mother boxes like cyborg does. This leads me to believe he has limited outer durability negation as he didn’t need a conduit like the flash did. He’s physically overpowering them in the most blatant way possible as he’s forcing them to split beyond their will.
The final nail in the coffin for the argument that they scale to the boxes is the fact Superman destroyed them as Desaad says here. At first I thought this was talking about its functionality but I was wrong. There’s evidence for physical damage being done to the boxes. After he splits the unity the mother boxes go from having a glossy shiny look to losing their reflectiveness and beginning to look matte and rough, as well as having what appears to be burnt marks on its surface. Here’s a before and after:
This is also consistent with the fact that it wasn’t necessarily the apokoliptian characters that were scared of superman but the boxes themselves, instantly rising as soon as he died.
“He didn’t do it alone” that’s irrelevant to the point being made, the point being that these characters should scale to the boxes.
“Cyborg hacked into it” as we see from the visual and the statements regarding the plan, all cyborg did was:
- position it in a place where it could be split back into three.
- weaken its bond so it could be vulnerable to brute force. Nothing about weakening its outer durability. If you believe he did such, the burden of proof is on you.
“So why did the motherboxes kill them all at the end?” The motherboxes are stated to be able to rearrange matter at the will of its master on an atomic scale. All this means is that the JL do not have resistance to atomic durability negation which is coherently accepted by the site. There is no circular scaling. To argue that they didn’t survive it because they were too weak, you would have to prove that they have a resistance to atomic durability negation, yet couldn’t withstand this because of a power issue.
In conclusion, the motherboxes were extremely troublesome because of hax reasons and not necessarily raw power with the JL and Zeus having feats that should place them on its level.
5. There are also 3 statements that imply that darkseid is greater than other villain in the universe.
- Stated to be the universe’s greatest villain in the same passage talking about krypton’s doomsday.
- Stated to be the “king daddy of the universe” by Zs despite Zack saying the real doomsday is still out there.
- Stated to be "The ultimate force to be reckoned with".
Darkseid was intended to be the grand final boss of the dceu that would be the biggest challenge the earth had ever faced. It makes a lot of sense for him to be the stronger than anything doomsday or enchantress are capable of.
These aren't even the highest interpretation of the characters with it being stated that wonder woman's explosion/scream when Steve Trevor died "made the stars in space tremble", likely being literal. The jl2 and 3 storyboards also say all the stars in the universe will go out because of what Darkseid's power over anti-life on earth, in reponse to green lantern saying some stars have gone missing, once again being literal.
part two will be brief going over some speed stuff.
thanks for reading
Agree: Maverick_Zero_X, DarkDragonMedeus, Ozcantabak, GrayCraft_Dragon, GoldenVoid, Planck69, Hellbeast, Viott
Neutral:
Disagree
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