• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Smallville AP reworks

Qawsedf234

Qawsedf234

VS Battles
Administrator
Human Resources
19,652
15,994
So I have some large issues with some characters just randomly scaling to Superman for no real reason. Here's everyone currently listed at High 5-A.

Superma

My issue here is... why is Superman "At least High 5-A, likely much higher? This is his best feat and there's no indication he's gotten notably stronger.

Supergirl/Superboy

So currently Supergirl is rated at High 5-A for: "Dwarf Star level (Was able to slightly hurt Superman)" and Superboy is High 5-A for "Dwarf Star level (Was shown to be comparable to Supergirl)". But lets look at both fights shown

  • Supergirl: In this fight Superman not only didn't want to fight his cousin, but he took zero damage and casually overpowered her heat vision just by walking foreward. To scale her to High 5-A because of this doesn't make that much sense to me. Espically when, in-universe, from Kara's PoV she left Clark six months ago (or year+) before he unlocked his full power. Her scaling up doesn't make a ton of sense to me
  • Superboy: For him... he's never shown to be comparable to Kara. Like they fight similar people, but she does better stuff, is shown be faster, and is treated as a heavier hitter.
Martian Manhunter

His reason for scaling is "Dwarf Star level (Fought the Omega Monitor with Superma)". So the big issue with this is that this is the full fight. MMH does no damage to the Omega Monitor and when Superman goes all out he casually disables it. They are not comparable.

Black Flash/Impulse/The Flash

  • The Flash: His current scaling is "Dwarf Star level (Fended off the Black Flash in the past, but wasn't able to destroy it, and slammed Superboy hard enough to hurt him)". Well the major issue is that he didn't actually hurt Superboy and more importantly, he never fended off Black Flash. He just stopped runningand Black Flash can only find you if you tap into the speedforce. Avoiding a fight does not mean you scale to that person. In fact it implies the exact opposite.
  • Impluse and Black Flash: Legit imo. Superman says the Black Racer harmed him and they fought for at least a couple of minutes pretty evenly.
The Monitors/Lex Luthor

Seems weird to combine them but let me finish.

  • The Monitors: Are of this tier because "Dwarf Star level (Can hurt Superma)". The Monitors use Bleed energy in their weapons, which can harm anyone. Including Superman. While I can see their AP scaling to Superman, their physicals scaling are really iffy unless we're using the Omega Monitor as the basis
Cyborg Superma

His tier is "Dwarf Star level (Was able to hurt Superma, and fought Eclipso, along with Supergirl, and Superboy)". So here's the issue...he never harmed Superma. Superman did not want to fight him, no selled every attack, and casually destroyed his body twice. The Eclipso stuff is legit, so I'm fine with him being "at least High 6-B". At least in his second body.

Darkseid

Oddly enough my issue here is that he doesn't have a good explination. Or any. He's the one that pulled Apokolips to Earth and has killed multiple other fully powered alt-Superman. Like he should have more to his High 5-A key. Also his lifting strength needs a downgrade

General Zod

His High 5-A key is: "Dwarf Star level (His full power was unlocked by the merger and therefore, he should be comparable to full power unlocked Superma)". So in other words there is no basis and its based on an unprovable assumption.

Doomsday

So Doomsday actually has two issues

  • His merged key is "Country level (Is able to take Clark who is holding back)". Which... makes no sense. If CK is holding back then he can't scale to him and if he does it would be High 6-B not 6-B. Key needs to be removed or changed to something like "Unknown, possibly Large Country level"
  • His 31st century key is "Dwarf Star level (Capable of significantly hurting Superma)". Which honestly... is a low ball. Doomsday wrecked Superma and over two doze other Kryptonians at the same time. While he's still High 5-A since Superman could damage him, he was notably stronger.
Brainiac 5

His key is: "Dwarf Star level (Should be comparable to Supergirl)". If by this point, you'd guess "He doesn't actually show any evidence he's as strong as Supergirl or as fast as her" you'd be completely correct.

Nightwing

She is listed as High 5-A due to: "Dwarf Star level (Comparable to Saint Walker who fought Monitors)". Issue is that, as mentioned before, Monitors aren't High 5-A themselves and she doesn't do anything to the Omega Monitor.

Other notable issues

Currently we rate Nam-Ek, Baern, Icicle, and Persuader at "6-B" for harming Clark. Besides the large issue of Clark never having a 6-B key it doesn't make sense for other reasons

  • Nam-Ek: He is listed at 6-B for: "At least Country level, possibly higher (Was barely able to fight against Clark)". The issue here is that he only fights Clark in Season 5 who's only 8-C. He does meet Clark in season 6, but Clark was completely depowered when they fight. As was Nam-Ek. So it doesn't upscale
  • Baern: He doesn't harm Clark until he absorbs the Black Box and is rather easily kicked away by Raya. His first key, if kept, should be "8-C" rather than 6-B
  • Icicle: His rating just makes no sense. If he harmed and pushed Clark he's High 6-B, not 6-B
  • Persuader: He did send Clark flying with his blows, but he did not damage Superman without his axe. And axe that was noted to be sharp enough to split atoms. It seems more like durability negation rather than AP.
 
Speed is also another major issue, but its less notable than AP since its a lot easier to scale speed than it is attack power. So while I have issues with some rankings, its nothing major.
 
Merged Doomsday should be deleted imo, there's no good scaling for that key.

Agree with everything else. I'm assuning most of these guys are going to High 6-B?
 
Yeah. Except Jay, who I have no idea what he becomes.. Maybe "Possibly 8-C" or something? A lot of them also need their Class Y ratings removed and Darkseid needs to have his lifting strength downgraded to Class Y as well.
 
Actually wait, another question I have is this

  • Speed: Massively FTL+ (Was able to casually run far faster than Clark can fly while holding back immensely)
This never happened to my memory. Like, I think someone just copy-pasted Bart's reasoning here. He should have his speed downgraded as well.
 
As a note, Class Y needs to be changed to Class Z. Apok was accepted to be 2e+21 kg, which is Z rather than Y

  • Superman: Speed and Lifting strength is fine
  • Supergirl: Speed is fine, but lifting strength needs to be changed to either Class K or Class M
  • Superboy: Speed is fine, but lifting strength needs to be changed to "At least Class K"
  • Martian Manhunter: Speed is fine, but lifting strength needs to be changed to "At least Class K"
  • The Flash: Speed needs to be changed to "At least supersonic (Noted as being the first superhero to break the sound barrier)". His AP also needs to be changed to High 8-C for being comparable to Hawkman
  • Nightwing: Speed is fine, but lifting strength needs to be downgraded to "Unknown"
  • Lex Luthor: The Warsuit needs to be downgraded from stellar to unknown. Its speed is fine I guess
  • Cyborg Superman: Lifting strength needs to be moved to unknown. Speed is fine, but he needs to scale to Superboy and Supergirl rather than Superman
  • Darkseid: Lifting strength needs to be downgraded to Class Z
  • Monitors: Lifting strength should be moved to Unknown. They never grapple Superman and he breaks out of any restraints they put him into
  • General Zod: Both the MFTL+ and the Class Z rating need to be removed. There's no reason he should scale to Prime Superman
  • Brainiac 5: Both Class Z and MFTL+ have no basis
  • Doomsday (31st century): Class Z and MFTL+ are fine
 
Yeah, everything appears to be correct here. Maybe not the best person to ask as I haven't fully watched Smallville yet and read Season 11 several years ago, but each scan presented does seem to show what is being suggested by the OP. Two points tho:

I think the reason the rest of that was added was due to how casual Clark seemed to perform the feat, so I guess it suggested that he could probably do more. But this is fairly unsubstantiated so a simple High 5-A rating is far more preferable. How would you rate his GL Key tho? GL rings aren't typically depicted as producing greater potency than Superman, usually its either comparable to or even lesser than his full output.

Can I also ask for the full context behind Brainiac's semi-continental Black Box? I ask because the ratings state Clark fought Brainiac whilst empowered by the black box, which as stated gave him enough power to wipe out half a continent. What I'd like to know is whether or not the Black Box was a general power boost that empowered Brainiac's regular strikes with High 6-B power, or whether said High 6-B energy was the total amount of energy held within the Black Box itself which wouldn't actually scale to Brainiac's regular output whilst empowered with it.
 
How would you rate his GL Key tho?

The same tier. In the comic series where he gets it (Smallville: Lanter) he's portrayed at the same strength level with extra powers. He even fights multiple Yellow Lanterns at once without the ring as does fine.

Can I also ask for the full context behind Brainiac's semi-continental Black Box?

Sure (as a note you'll have to unmute the gifs)

So the box can reshape a planet's crust and the person who absorbed was stated as being able to wipe out half of a contient in a fight.

What I'd like to know is whether or not the Black Box was a general power boost that empowered Brainiac's regular strikes with High 6-B power, or whether said High 6-B energy was the total amount of energy held within the Black Box itself which wouldn't actually scale to Brainiac's regular output whilst empowered with it.

Personally I think its the latter. He does get scaling later on where he harms Clark or Supergirl, but that's after he had constructed a new body and upgraded himself. So he should probably get a Season 5 key separate from his Season 7-8 key
 
Was there any point in the show where Clark had to take on the full power of the Black Box, or did he simply fight Black Box empowered Brainiac?
 
Yeah. When he fought Baern (after he absorbed the box) he withstood his attacks for a prolonged peroid of time. Brainiac is weaker than Superman/Supergirl, but can keep up with them to my memory. But only after he rebuilt his body with some upgrades and lacked the infinite energy of the black box.
 
Did the Black Box empower each of Baern's attacks up High 6-B, or was the High 6-B energy just the total energy held within the Black Box themselves? If its just the latter then I don't think either Baern or Superman should scale to the full power of the box.
 
He absorbed it in total. I do agree just absorbing something doesn't give someone its full AP, but in this case it was stated to amp him enough to wipe out half a continent if they didn't contain the fight in the Fortress of Solitude.
 
Ah I gotcha.

Tho may I ask is the specific value for their High 6-B value baseline, 380 Teratons (half of baseline 6-A) or something else?
 
I want to say that when it was first made it was done using that logic "Half of 6-A = High 6-B".
 
Hm, maybe the specific rating isn't 100% justified. They don't state the size of the Continent or how it would be destroyed (full surface cleanse or just the destruction of every human made landmark throughout half a continent) so it just leaves us to make an assumption about its power. Granted its the fairest assumption we can make, but is there anything else about the Black Box that could help give us a more concrete value for its power?
 
I guess if those don't work we can scale them to this feat or when Clark vaporizes a tidal wave.
 
Hm, well standard assumptions for a worldwide earthquake is a light magnitude 4 shake or 1.06 Teratons, Low 6-B. But the shaking you've shown looks to be a good deal higher than a simple magnitude 4 earthquake given it shook each building we saw hard enough to cause some of its structure to fall apart throughout each room. What Magnitude rating would you give those quakes?
 
Is that the right feat? The one you've linked is to Clark blowing away a massive cloud. Which actually does elicit some high tier results as I've seen. What season did that happen in tho?
 
  • Dunno. It was collasping a barn and mansion. The skyscraper could push it to a 8 if it wasn't damaged in a riot. Should be in the tier 6 range just to due the area it effected though
  • It happens in Season 6 Episode 2 (the episode right after the Black Box earthquakes and four episodes before Baern).
 
SuperAPM said:
What Magnitude rating would you give those quakes?
Click to expand...
Probably a 5 or 6 for the barn/mansion. Which according to DMUA's blog is 33.7 Teratons to 1 Petaton
 
Here's what I found on Earthquake Magnitudes on Wikipedia, Quote:

4.0―4.9: Noticeable shaking of indoor objects and rattling noises. Felt by most people in the affected area. Slightly felt outside. Generally causes zero to minimal damage. Moderate to significant damage very unlikely. Some objects may fall off shelves or be knocked over.

5.0-5.9: Can cause damage of varying severity to poorly constructed buildings. Zero to slight damage to all other buildings. Felt by everyone.

6.0―6.9: Damage to a moderate number of well-built structures in populated areas. Earthquake-resistant structures survive with slight to moderate damage. Poorly designed structures receive moderate to severe damage. Felt in wider areas; up to hundreds of miles/kilometers from the epicenter. Strong to violent shaking in epicentral area.

Personally those looked to be a magnitude 6 quake given the damage presented. 7 is pushing it but at minimum that would elicit a 6-B rating if we just go with a 5.
 
While I would like 5, 6 is seemingly more realistic given what we're shown. Which makes it about 1 Petaton, or if we take the continent thing at face value about 500 Teratons for Baern.
 
If we do go with 6 then I would say that should elicit a bump up to 6-A. But if we go with 5 then I'd say its safest to bump them down to 6-B. The Earthquake feat looks far more concrete and reliable than the half a continent statement.
 
Yeah that looks fine. I guess we'll need further evaluation and input to see which magnitude we should go with.
 
I take it thats from Season 6, of was it actually earlier/later? That actually looks possible to fully calculate since the scene showcases almost the entire body of water that was vaporised.

Although, would it be safe to scale his heat vision to his physical power? If other characters have tanked it then it should probably be fine.
 
That's from Season 7 Episode 1. Clark vaporizes all the water that was released from a collapsed dam while in super speed.

If other characters have tanked it then it should probably be fine.

They have
 
So do you want to drop the black box stuff, or just get everything calced?
 
The half a continent statement is a little to speculative for my liking, but it being shown to produce enough energy to shake the entire earth with a magnitude 5/6 earthquake is completely fine as a feat, since its a continuous production of energy that should scale to its regular power output rather than just its total sum energy. Tho did Zod cause these quakes when fighting Clark, or did the Fortress itself completely nullify them? It doesn't matter regardless since Zod's power output with it should be equivalent to what the box does by itself, but if he did it during the fight then it becomes more of a direct feat which would obviously be more preferable.

The two other feats can be used as a supporting feat, or even justification for a higher tier if they elicit such results.
 
Tho did Zod cause these quakes when fighting Clark

It was the black box the entire time

r did the Fortress itself completely nullify them?

Nah. Clark just blasted it in half with heat vision which stopped it

It doesn't matter regardless since Zod's power output with it should be equivalent to what the box does by itself, but if he did it during the fight then it becomes more of a direct feat which would obviously be more preferable.

Zod was using it to terraform the planet, not amp himself. It was Baern, a later villain, who absorbed the Black Box and its energies.
 
Sorry, I got the guy wrong, my bad. I'm guessing Baern didn't cause any quakes when fighting Clark whilst empowered with it?
 
Yeah. The Fortress either blocked it or due to the nature of the fight (after Superman was blasted away the first time he got a crystal that absorbed his attacks) he couldn't generate them anymore.
 
Gotcha. And since Earthwide quakes was the box's regular power output its less of an issue to scale to those empowered by it, unless there's something else that suggests they couldn't for whatever reason. The only other issue I see is deciding which magnitude to go with.
 
It was breaking down a barn and a well built mansion. Since the skyscraper was damaged we can't really scale it to that, so 6 is probably the best thing to go with.
 
I didn't even notice the skyscraper to be honest. But looking at the description of each magnitude online I'd also say that rating it as a 6 looks most applicable given the quake in question. Which is a nice bump up to 6-A.

I don't know if a blog is or is not necessary for this tho.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

DBZ: AP Scaling Update - Post Frieza Upgrade
Replies
33
Views
1K
Jaakor48
Fallen_Angelicx
High 5-A+, Not High 5-A.
Replies
2
Views
656
Fallen_Angelicx
Fallen_Angelicx
Tots_Real
The most pedantic Superman correction.
Replies
6
Views
834
Qawsedf234
Qawsedf234
chosen
From 5 to 4 (MvC Revision)
Replies
37
Views
1K
Lonkitt
Lonkitt
AerrowStorm1
Superboy (all Kryptonians?) Existence Erasure resistance
Replies
9
Views
833
Hypertornado099
Hypertornado099
Back
Top