SM Naruto and MS Sasuke vs OM Obito

[MinatoSparkle]

I am going with the Fate bros.

Reason:

Naruto was implied to have surpassed OM Obito with KCM.

Spoiler

Considering SM Naruto was stated to have surpassed his predecessors which includes Minato who's relative to YM Obito. I think it would be fair for me to claim that SM Naruto is at least ~ to OM Obito.

Spoiler

I agree with your conclusion but I heavily disagree with your arguments. Naruto was literally stated to need KCM to beat Obito. If SM Naruto>Minato~>YM Obito, that wouldn't rlly make sense. Fugaku either doesn't know enough about Minato's strength to draw a concrete conclusion or the statement is about SM mastery.

Minato's raw speed was averred to be equal to base A4's by C. The former's V1 variant was being matched by V1 3T Sasuke. The discussed iteration of the latter is 3 Susanoo evolutions stronger.

Spoiler

Minato isn't relative to Base Ay any stretch of the imagination. At a lowball he's relative to V2 Ay cause of the databook statement about Lightning Chakra Mode.

Because of Amaterasu.

Many don't seem to know this but I'll elaborate.

Spoiler

That's basically it. The flames appear on the focal point of the user (at least until a certain range). That's all it takes. All Sasuke needs is to have Obito visible to him. If that is fulfilled the former can burst him into flames. Obito cannot keep range because his own wincon requires him to go close quarters.

Obito could use Kamui before Amaterasu erupts to phase through.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

I agree with your conclusion

Thank you!

but I heavily disagree with your arguments. Naruto was literally stated to need KCM to beat Obito. If SM Naruto>Minato~>YM Obito, that wouldn't rlly make sense.

Not necessarily.

From what I know, In their encounter, Minato praised and was worried about Obito's future deeds for multiple reasons: his ability to infiltrate Konoha without detection, his identity as Madara Uchiha, his ability to unseal & control the nine tails and nearly destroy the village, his space-time abilities, and his "dangerous ideology":

Spoiler

And as Obito insinuates above, we see Minato acknowledge that there's obviously more at play, a plan, and the means for Obito, leading Minato to state verbatim that if he doesn't stop Obito now, they'd have even bigger problems than the nine tails in the future:

Spoiler

Minato entrusting the Kyuubi to his son was to face the hypothetical Obito w/ a much greater power than the 9-tails.

Honestly, this makes more sense as Minato did canonically beat Obito even if it was a close fight (I have started to doubt if it was even close for some reasons). And it would make no sense that he would sacrifice his life to give KCM to Naruto against someone he himself showed relativity to himself.

Fugaku either doesn't know enough about Minato's strength to draw a concrete conclusion

Proof?

Narrative intent is also to be noted here. Both Minato and Jiraya was referenced in that scene.

or the statement is about SM mastery.

Fukasaku only said he surpassed his predecessors, he did not say, "Naruto-Boy surpassed his predecessors in Sage Mode." or anything of the like.

Minato isn't relative to Base Ay any stretch of the imagination. At a lowball he's relative to V2 Ay cause of the databook statement about Lightning Chakra Mode.

Not inferior can also be interpreted as superior.

Anywho, it's the databook which pales in comparison to the manga.

Databook: A databook is a book containing statistics for manga or anime characters. This is usually done to provide extra info and backstory to characters and is usually done for shounen manga. Most databooks are considered secondary canon and as such are no match against manga scans. Some databooks are unreliable because it's either not written by the author or contain info disproven by scans and manga.

Obito could use Kamui before Amaterasu erupts to phase through.

That will not save him. Kamui phasing ie. the transfer of his body parts into boxland only occurs when a physical substance agitates the barrier around him. In Amaterasu's case, the flares are born on Obito's body itself. It'll be treated like his clothes and phases with him since it originated from his body.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Thank you!

Not necessarily.

From what I know, In their encounter, Minato praised and was worried about Obito's future deeds for multiple reasons: his ability to infiltrate Konoha without detection, his identity as Madara Uchiha, his ability to unseal & control the nine tails and nearly destroy the village, his space-time abilities, and his "dangerous ideology":

Spoiler

And as Obito insinuates above, we see Minato acknowledge that there's obviously more at play, a plan, and the means for Obito, leading Minato to state verbatim that if he doesn't stop Obito now, they'd have even bigger problems than the nine tails in the future:

Spoiler

Minato entrusting the Kyuubi to his son was to face the hypothetical Obito w/ a much greater power than the 9-tails.

That statement means that Obito himself is a greater problem than Kurama, not that he'll have greater strength in the future. And if he did have much greater power than Kurama, why would he seal half of Kurama in Naruto? That doesn't make much sense.

Honestly, this makes more sense as Minato did canonically beat Obito even if it was a close fight (I have started to doubt if it was even close for some reasons). And it would make no sense that he would sacrifice his life to give KCM to Naruto against someone he himself showed relativity to himself.

It's because Minato is weaker than SM Naruto. At all. He'd absolutely stomp PA SM Naruto with like no difficulty. He's a rival to eKCM2 Naruto, with MS Kakashi mistaking Naruto's speed for Minato's.

Proof?

I'm remaining agnostic on that. All I'm saying is that Fukasaku's knowledge on Minato is unknown so he's not the best source of info.

Narrative intent is also to be noted here. Both Minato and Jiraya was referenced in that scene.

Narrative intent places Minato at KCM-KCM2 tiers of strength.

Fukasaku only said he surpassed his predecessors, he did not say, "Naruto-Boy surpassed his predecessors in Sage Mode." or anything of the like.

It's an alternate interpretation to fit more with other evidence.

Not inferior can also be interpreted as superior.

The fan translation isn't completely accurate. The raws say Ay is equal to the Yellow Flash (which is referring to Jonin Minato anyway).
"黄色い閃光" にも劣らない神速を誇る

Anywho, it's the databook which pales in comparison to the manga.

In this case, the databooks are written by Kishimoto, and Word of God statements should only be discounted if there's a true contradiction that can't be explained with alternative interpretations. The statement about Base Ay~Minato is from Cee, who's knowledge on Minato is unknown, and is only about reactions, not physical speed. And there are like literally dozens of metas putting Minato above Base Ay.

That will not save him. Kamui phasing ie. the transfer of his body parts into boxland only occurs when a physical substance agitates the barrier around him. In Amaterasu's case, the flares are born on Obito's body itself. It'll be treated like his clothes and phases with him since it originated from his body.

By that logic, even Bee fight Sasuke or Deathbed Itachi would one shot Obito, which is not at all implied. If something touches where his body is, it'll just phase. It doesn't matter if it spawns like that.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

That statement means that Obito himself is a greater problem than Kurama, not that he'll have greater strength in the future.

That's technically what's implied.

And if he did have much greater power than Kurama, why would he seal half of Kurama in Naruto? That doesn't make much sense.

It does though. Jinchuuriki are more powerful than wild bijuu. I think Minato believed that the power Naruto gains from mastering the nine tails would be able to face whatever hypothetical greater power that Obito possessed/would come into possession of.

It's because Minato is weaker than SM Naruto. At all. He'd absolutely stomp PA SM Naruto with like no difficulty.

Proof?

He's a rival to eKCM2 Naruto, with MS Kakashi mistaking Naruto's speed for Minato's.

That's more likely to be a reference to FTG not exactly raw speed. KCM2 Naruto blitzed Kakashi's perceptions which is signature of FTG.

I'm remaining agnostic on that. All I'm saying is that Fukasaku's knowledge on Minato is unknown so he's not the best source of info.

It still doesn't change the implications of what Fukasaku said. Mind you, it is the author who put that statement there, so we cannot really dismiss it.

Narrative intent places Minato at KCM-KCM2 tiers of strength.

That's in relation to FTG (which has been often confused with literal speed).

It's an alternate interpretation to fit more with other evidence.

I wouldn't be so bent on accommodating the databook very much. Manga statements and feats take precedence over the databook. Make good sense of the former and see how the latter fits.

The fan translation isn't completely accurate. The raws say Ay is equal to the Yellow Flash (which is referring to Jonin Minato anyway).
"黄色い閃光" にも劣らない神速を誇る

In this case, the databooks are written by Kishimoto,

I am not so sure about that.

Next databook 4 also says this.

スタッフ皆で苦労して 作り上げた本です!

この本が皆様にとって 大切な本になるといい・あぁ・・

陣の書を読んで下さった皆様 ありがとうございます!!

Translation :-

This is a book that all the staff have worked hard to create!

I hope this book will be an important book for everyone ...

Thank you to everyone who read Jin's book !!

Now add in kishimoto's hectic schedule , it makes me wonder whether kishimoto wrote the databooks or the "staff" wrote it compiling stuff from manga.

Databook 4 is literally credited to the staff. So while it is canon, it is still very much inferior to the manga.

and Word of God statements should only be discounted if there's a true contradiction that can't be explained with alternative interpretations. The statement about Base Ay~Minato is from Cee, who's knowledge on Minato is unknown,

Again. Just because we do not know C's knowledge doesn't mean we get to throw it out. C's statement is the manga one, not the databook. If the author put it there, we should give it some credit.

and is only about reactions, not physical speed.

C also states nerve transmission which includes the transmission of impulse through the motor neurons directly responsible for movement. So, it does include physical speed.

And there are like literally dozens of metas putting Minato above Base Ay.

Really? Mind giving some?

By that logic, even Bee fight Sasuke or Deathbed Itachi would one shot Obito, which is not at all implied.

Yep. That's how a hax works. Although I don't see much of a case for Deathbed Itachi as he was already 90% blind. I imagine, he'd have trouble keeping a good eye on Obito as Sasuke himself was a blur to him.

If something touches where his body is, it'll just phase.

Except the flames are born from his body, it will follow the same logic as his clothes.

It doesn't matter if it spawns like that.

By logical analysis of the functioning of both abilities, you are incorrect.

The flames would be considered as an extension of the body like his clothes thereby affecting him.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

That's technically what's implied.

What's implied is that if he doesn't deal with him now Obito will pose a greater threat to the village than Kurama, which would be an in the moment thing, not something in the future. Considering that as far as he knows, Obito is Madara, an incredibly old and experienced fighter, he wouldn't just assume he has a ton of room to grow.

It does though. Jinchuuriki are more powerful than wild bijuu. I think Minato believed that the power Naruto gains from mastering the nine tails would be able to face whatever hypothetical greater power that Obito possessed/would come into possession of.

If he thought Obito>Full Kurama, why would he just randomly assume that half of it mastered would be enough? He may know Jins are stronger, but he shouldn't know the exact ratio or anything.

Proof?

That's more likely to be a reference to FTG not exactly raw speed. KCM2 Naruto blitzed Kakashi's perceptions which is signature of FTG.

The panel specifically shows a streak of light, which is a mark of Shunshin and not FTG.

https://****************/wp-content...f890cf/NARUTO—ナルト—-カラー版-60---p102-[aKraa].png

And Naruto being compared to FTG makes no sense as that's literally teleportation. You can't be comparable to FTG with finite speed no matter how fast you are. Being compared in physical speed is more rational. And it's consistent with Kurama all but stating that KCM2 is the power Minato wanted Naruto to have against YM Obito.

He referred to Minato's statement, confirming that Naruto has "mastered" his power, with all statements about KCM1 referring to control or command or something like that and not true mastery, which would suggest Minato~>YM Obito<~eKCM2 Naruto>>KCM Naruto.

It still doesn't change the implications of what Fukasaku said. Mind you, it is the author who put that statement there, so we cannot really dismiss it.

Yes, but when there are different ways of scaling a character, you can't accept every statement as gospel or else it'd be impossible to scale them.

That's in relation to FTG (which has been often confused with literal speed).

When KCM Naruto was first compared with Minato, it was specifically his Shunshin that was likened to Jonin Minato. It was called teleportation jutsu, but that's VIZ's way of translating Shunshin (like how Shisui is called Shisui of teleportation)

I wouldn't be so bent on accommodating the databook very much. Manga statements and feats take precedence over the databook. Make good sense of the former and see how the latter fits.

A Word of God databook statement should generally take precedence over a manga statement from a character, who's not an omniscient source.

I am not so sure about that.




Databook 4 is literally credited to the staff. So while it is canon, it is still very much inferior to the manga.

The databooks are still credited as being written by Kishimoto, so even if the staff were a part of it, Kishimoto still should've been heavily involved in the process, or at least given approval to the whole book, which would still make it primary canon.

Again. Just because we do not know C's knowledge doesn't mean we get to throw it out. C's statement is the manga one, not the databook. If the author put it there, we should give it some credit.

The author was also fine with the statement of LCM Ay~Jonin Minato (prolly base movement speed anyways but I digress)

C also states nerve transmission which includes the transmission of impulse through the motor neurons directly responsible for movement. So, it does include physical speed.

Nerve transmission is impulse through neurons which is responsible for movement, but it's not movement itself. That would just mean his brain processes information as quickly, not necessarily that he moves as quickly. If Cee wanted to imply that, why would he use such fancy terminology instead of just saying "His movement, striking, and reaction speed are on part with that of Konoha's Yellow Flash."

Really? Mind giving some?

Well for one, Minato was literally stated to surpass Raikage Ay.

And there are plenty of statements that suggest or outright state that Minato is unsurpassed in present day by anyone.

He also outsped 100% Kurama while 50% Kurama was faster than WA SM Naruto.

He also ran to the battlefield faster than Hashirama or Tobirama.

And the databook stated Minato was the fastest shinobi, which could be referring to all of history, but even if it's only about his era, that would include the 3rd Raikage, whose speed was compared to LCM Ay's as a weakened Edo.

There are plenty more, but I think you get the idea.

Yep. That's how a hax works. Although I don't see much of a case for Deathbed Itachi as he was already 90% blind. I imagine, he'd have trouble keeping a good eye on Obito as Sasuke himself was a blur to him.

If it was really that easy, don't you think Itachi would've strolled up to Obito right before fighting Sasuke and just killed him?

Except the flames are born from his body, it will follow the same logic as his clothes.

He can just consciously phase his whole body to the Kamui dimension when he sees chakra building up in Sasuke's eye.

By logical analysis of the functioning of both abilities, you are incorrect.

The flames would be considered as an extension of the body like his clothes thereby affecting him.

But that's narratively inconsistent, given Obito's status as a near unstoppable force. And while I don't like the statement very much for various reasons, the databook did sort of imply Kamui can counter Amaterasu.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

What's implied is that if he doesn't deal with him now Obito will pose a greater threat to the village than Kurama, which would be an in the moment thing, not something in the future. Considering that as far as he knows, Obito is Madara, an incredibly old and experienced fighter, he wouldn't just assume he has a ton of room to grow.

Minato didn't assume that though. Obito himself states it.

Spoiler

Obito has 'plenty of other ways' to take over the world. Entrusting Kurama to Naruto was in preparation for that. I simply compounded that with Obito bringing bigger problems than 9-tails.

This is highlighted by Naruto himself.

Spoiler

"The Masked Man was going to destroy the future. The only one who could stop him was me but only if I had the nine tails' power under control!"

If he thought Obito>Full Kurama, why would he just randomly assume that half of it mastered would be enough? He may know Jins are stronger, but he shouldn't know the exact ratio or anything.

I did not say Obito is > Full Kurama though.

This is what I said:

Minato entrusting the Kyuubi to his son was to face the hypothetical Obito w/ a much greater power than the 9-tails.

Not that Obito himself is superior.

Minato doesn't know how much stronger the Jins are. He just assumed whatever power Naruto would gain from mastering the Kyuubi would aid in fighting an Obito with a more powerful means.

But I don't quite get you. If Minato is a rival to eKCM2 Naruto, why would he seal the Kyuubi inside Naruto hoping he could defeat Obito? If Minato himself is relative to a bijuu jin then it doesn't explain why he did what he did. If the Yellow flash is relative to KCM2 Naruto and Obito is relative to Minato, then he wouldn't have entrusted Kyuubi as it would make no difference against a stronger Obito.

The panel specifically shows a streak of light, which is a mark of Shunshin and not FTG.

https://****************/wp-content...f890cf/NARUTO—ナルト—-カラー版-60---p102-[aKraa].png

And Naruto being compared to FTG makes no sense as that's literally teleportation. You can't be comparable to FTG with finite speed no matter how fast you are. Being compared in physical speed is more rational.

Not really. Both FTG and Shunshin has been confused with speed and teleportation respectively multiple times. So, its still possible to endorse a comparison between FTG Minato and Shunshin Naruto because of how alike both the techniques are, at least when viewed by the average shinobi.

But even if I were to grant you this, it would only mean Minato's Shunshin speed is relative to Naruto's Shunshin speed (Shunshin being a short burst of immense speed), it doesn't talk much of his physical speed.

Regardless, Kakashi mistaking Naruto with Minato is not a valid reasoning to definitively put Minato on that level. We are gonna need more solid evidence.

And it's consistent with Kurama all but stating that KCM2 is the power Minato wanted Naruto to have against YM Obito.

He referred to Minato's statement, confirming that Naruto has "mastered" his power, with all statements about KCM1 referring to control or command or something like that and not true mastery, which would suggest Minato~>YM Obito<~eKCM2 Naruto>>KCM Naruto.

Yes, according to Kurama, KCM2 is true mastery. However, you have to prove when Minato stated mastery, it was not KCM1 since this mode is the one stated to be mastery by many, as your scans indicate. Even Naruto thinks the same as per my second scan. Especially since befriending a bijuu was not a very known concept at the time.

Yes, but when there are different ways of scaling a character, you can't accept every statement as gospel or else it'd be impossible to scale them.

True. But in this case, taking all the particular manga statements as the absolute truth does give a concrete scaling that stands uncontradicted.

When KCM Naruto was first compared with Minato, it was specifically his Shunshin that was likened to Jonin Minato. It was called teleportation jutsu, but that's VIZ's way of translating Shunshin (like how Shisui is called Shisui of teleportation)

FTG is a teleportation jutsu. In the instance where KCM Naruto outsped A4 via Shunshin its was very reminiscent to Minato outdoing A4 via FTG.

Spoiler

A Word of God databook statement should generally take precedence over a manga statement from a character, who's not an omniscient source.

Nope.

This is established by the wiki mate.

Databook: A databook is a book containing statistics for manga or anime characters. This is usually done to provide extra info and backstory to characters and is usually done for shounen manga. Most databooks are considered secondary canon and as such are no match against manga scans. Some databooks are unreliable because it's either not written by the author or contain info disproven by scans and manga.

As per the wiki, the manga stands as the absolute source (unless stated otherwise). Everything else is secondary canon. Especially given we do not even know how much involved Kishimoto was with the databooks.

The databooks are still credited as being written by Kishimoto, so even if the staff were a part of it, Kishimoto still should've been heavily involved in the process, or at least given approval to the whole book, which would still make it primary canon.

Oh I am not insinuating approval or supervision by Kishimoto isn't possible. We just do not know to what extent Kishimoto was involved with it. As far as I am aware, he was also credited for the novels which were written by different people. If the 4th Databook was indeed made by the staff, then the credibility of those statements falls immensely as they are not WoG anymore. You know what is? The statements made by the characters in the manga if they are shown to be not misinformed, deluded, lying or engaging in hyperbole. Without knowing how much of the databook was directly responsible by Kishimoto, I will take the manga over the databook anyday.

The author was also fine with the statement of LCM Ay~Jonin Minato (prolly base movement speed anyways but I digress)

Oh that I agree. I am also of the opinion Young A4's combat speed is relative to Jonin Minato's at that point in time. Obviously, through the passage of time, the former surpassed the latter.

Nerve transmission is impulse through neurons which is responsible for movement, but it's not movement itself. That would just mean his brain processes information as quickly, not necessarily that he moves as quickly.

But it does mean movement though, mate. The faster the nerve impulses, the faster our movement. Why do you think reflexes are generally quicker than voluntary actions? Because the transmission time for reflexes are shorter than voluntary movements. Since, the motor neurons control the movement of the muscles, faster impulse means swifter movement.

Brain processing information is a result of the sensory neurons transmitting signals to the Central Nervous System such as eyes, ears etc. It is the brain/spinal cord that sends impulses through the motor neurons for movement.

If Cee wanted to imply that, why would he use such fancy terminology instead of just saying "His movement, striking, and reaction speed are on part with that of Konoha's Yellow Flash."

Why not? Its not very fancy, my friend. Nerve Transmission is something I learned in 9th grade. Even if it isn't taught in school. A simple google search will give you the sufficient information to conclude that NT is directly related to movement.

Well for one, Minato was literally stated to surpass Raikage Ay.

That's the editorial. The original manga when released as a volume didn't have it.

Spoiler

And there are plenty of statements that suggest or outright state that Minato is unsurpassed in present day by anyone.

Kakashi's statement can be considered hyperbole. There are many shinobi that are on par if not super to Minato even at the time of the making of the statement. If I remember right, Kakashi said that during FRS training, am I wrong? If that's the case, then SM Naruto surpassing Minato still stands. Same applies to the P1 scan.

A4's statement is obviously in reference to the time when they exchanged blows, it doesn't talk much about his speed compared to Minato now.

He also outsped 100% Kurama while 50% Kurama was faster than WA SM Naruto.

That's fine. Even I believe Minato to be faster than SM Naruto. The latter is just overall stronger.

He also ran to the battlefield faster than Hashirama or Tobirama.

That's being dishonest. Its clearly FTG. We literally see the Kunai

Spoiler

Even in your scan, Tobirama praises him for teleportation not speed. This just goes on to show how FTG and speed as a stat are often considered one and the same.

And the databook stated Minato was the fastest shinobi, which could be referring to all of history, but even if it's only about his era, that would include the 3rd Raikage, whose speed was compared to LCM Ay's as a weakened Edo.

There are plenty more, but I think you get the idea.

"...boasts the greatest divine speed of all shinobi..."

These types of statements are quite characteristic of hyperbole. Mind you, this is the fourth databook which is inclusive of characters such as Madara, Hashirama, Juubi jins, Rikudo Bros, DMS Kakashi, 8G Guy etc. So, its not correct to use this statement to put him above the likes of KCM Naruto or A4 in speed.

If it was really that easy, don't you think Itachi would've strolled up to Obito right before fighting Sasuke and just killed him?

Proof that Itachi was sure it would work? The weasel was working with whatever knowledge he had on the man he thought was Madara.

"Even if the ability would work logically I can never be sure for the guy is the man who fooled even the God of shinobi." I am pretty sure this was Itachi's line of thinking when it came to Obito. You do not simply walk up to a man like that even if you are sure you would win. The author himself recognizes this as a valid concern as he has Obito emerge unscathed from the eternal fire.

Besides, Obito was hiding himself the entirety Itachi was in the Akatsuki. The latter wouldn't even know where to go.

He can just consciously phase his whole body to the Kamui dimension when he sees chakra building up in Sasuke's eye.

Not possible. He cannot transfer his body parts via phasing as it works subconsciously. He simply activates and deactivates it. If it was possible, he would have caught Naruto in these instances.

Spoiler

Its implied multiple times that he can only phase through a physical substance and he has no control over his body phasing beyond activating the ability.

But that's narratively inconsistent, given Obito's status as a near unstoppable force.

Obito himself has never been portrayed to be an unstoppable force. It was his reputation as the infamous Madara that gave him that portrayal. If anything Madara is the unstoppable one.

And while I don't like the statement very much for various reasons, the databook did sort of imply Kamui can counter Amaterasu.

That can also be interpreted as Izanagi, as the description fits the bill. Besides, we have this:

Spoiler

While the statement is not true in a literal sense as we see later. We can assume it to be the truth atleast in the instance cited ie. Obito burning. Suggesting that what Obito did to counter Amaterasu was very peculiar. And peculiar it was, as the method was literally blurring the line between imagination and reality. I have more evidence suggesting its Izanagi rather than Kamui.

 

[Nierre]

@Shadow_Somnius FRA

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Minato didn't assume that though. Obito himself states it.

Spoiler

Obito has 'plenty of other ways' to take over the world. Entrusting Kurama to Naruto was in preparation for that. I simply compounded that with Obito bringing bigger problems than 9-tails.

Having other ways to take over the world doesn't mean he'd get stronger, which is what my point was, not whatever you're trying to say.

This is highlighted by Naruto himself.

Spoiler

"The Masked Man was going to destroy the future. The only one who could stop him was me but only if I had the nine tails' power under control!"


I did not say Obito is > Full Kurama though.

This is what I said:

Not that Obito himself is superior.

Minato doesn't know how much stronger the Jins are. He just assumed whatever power Naruto would gain from mastering the Kyuubi would aid in fighting an Obito with a more powerful means.

Or it's Kishimoto symbolically comparing Naruto and Minato by pointing out that Naruto would need mastery of Kurama to defeat the same opponent as Minato.

But I don't quite get you. If Minato is a rival to eKCM2 Naruto, why would he seal the Kyuubi inside Naruto hoping he could defeat Obito? If Minato himself is relative to a bijuu jin then it doesn't explain why he did what he did. If the Yellow flash is relative to KCM2 Naruto and Obito is relative to Minato, then he wouldn't have entrusted Kyuubi as it would make no difference against a stronger Obito.

Because he himself was superior to Obito. So someone on his level also beating him makes sense. And keep in mind that he said Naruto would need Kurama to "stand against and hope to have any chance of defeating" Obito, not necessarily that he would beat him.

Not really. Both FTG and Shunshin has been confused with speed and teleportation respectively multiple times. So, its still possible to endorse a comparison between FTG Minato and Shunshin Naruto because of how alike both the techniques are, at least when viewed by the average shinobi.

Kakashi's far from an average shinobi. Even with the 3T Sharingan, he was able to keep up with the V2 Jinchuriki who were bodying KCM Naruto, and he had the MS activated in this scene which would amplify his ability to track movements even more.

But even if I were to grant you this, it would only mean Minato's Shunshin speed is relative to Naruto's Shunshin speed (Shunshin being a short burst of immense speed), it doesn't talk much of his physical speed.

If their Shunshin speed is relative why wouldn't their physical speed be relative too? The amps should cancel out and just make them relative norally.

Regardless, Kakashi mistaking Naruto with Minato is not a valid reasoning to definitively put Minato on that level. We are gonna need more solid evidence.


Yes, according to Kurama, KCM2 is true mastery. However, you have to prove when Minato stated mastery, it was not KCM1 since this mode is the one stated to be mastery by many, as your scans indicate. Even Naruto thinks the same as per my second scan. Especially since befriending a bijuu was not a very known concept at the time.

No, what the scans showed was that KCM1 was called control. Not mastery. Those are very different things. And idk if Minato knows that Bee befriended Gyuki, but even if he didn't, he knew Bee was a Perfect Jinchuriki that had full mastery of Gyuki, and since that's the only point of reference that Minato knows of, it makes sense that he meant Naruto being a Perfect Jin, since KCM isn't a form that any other Jinchuriki has anyways, so he has no reason to think of it when stating Naruto needed mastery.

True. But in this case, taking all the particular manga statements as the absolute truth does give a concrete scaling that stands uncontradicted.

Minato~Base Ay is indeed very contradicted.

FTG is a teleportation jutsu. In the instance where KCM Naruto outsped A4 via Shunshin its was very reminiscent to Minato outdoing A4 via FTG.

Spoiler

I know, but when the manga means FTG it tends to use the specific wording "Teleportation ninjutsu," not "Teleportation jutsu." That's reserved for Shunshin.

Nope.

This is established by the wiki mate.

As per the wiki, the manga stands as the absolute source (unless stated otherwise). Everything else is secondary canon. Especially given we do not even know how much involved Kishimoto was with the databooks.

I was just arguing about what I believe the actual truth to be, not what the wiki says, cause you're saying Minato~Base Ay, when the wiki stats have Minato>V2 Ay. Either we're both arguing by wiki standards or neither of us are.

Oh I am not insinuating approval or supervision by Kishimoto isn't possible. We just do not know to what extent Kishimoto was involved with it. As far as I am aware, he was also credited for the novels which were written by different people. If the 4th Databook was indeed made by the staff, then the credibility of those statements falls immensely as they are not WoG anymore. You know what is? The statements made by the characters in the manga if they are shown to be not misinformed, deluded, lying or engaging in hyperbole. Without knowing how much of the databook was directly responsible by Kishimoto, I will take the manga over the databook anyday.

He was credited for the artwork, not the writing. And no, even if the databook was written by staff, if it was given the stamp of approval by Kishimoto, it still retains full validity.

That's not what WoG means..."A statement regarding some ambiguous or undefined aspect of a work, the Word of God comes from someone considered to be the ultimate authority, such as the creator, director or producer." A character with limited knowledge is not the ultimate authority.

Oh that I agree. I am also of the opinion Young A4's combat speed is relative to Jonin Minato's at that point in time. Obviously, through the passage of time, the former surpassed the latter.

The databook said WA V2 Ay~Jonin Minato.

But it does mean movement though, mate. The faster the nerve impulses, the faster our movement. Why do you think reflexes are generally quicker than voluntary actions? Because the transmission time for reflexes are shorter than voluntary movements. Since, the motor neurons control the movement of the muscles, faster impulse means swifter movement.

Nerve impulses and movement are related, but that doesn't mean they're literally the same thing. Nerve impulses tell your body to move, but your body itself still needs to execute the action after being commanded. It's like how Sasuke could perceive Lee with the Sharingan, but his body wasn't fast enough to actually keep up.

Brain processing information is a result of the sensory neurons transmitting signals to the Central Nervous System such as eyes, ears etc. It is the brain/spinal cord that sends impulses through the motor neurons for movement.


Why not? Its not very fancy, my friend. Nerve Transmission is something I learned in 9th grade. Even if it isn't taught in school. A simple google search will give you the sufficient information to conclude that NT is directly related to movement.

When has there even been a time that Kishimoto used a term like "nerve transmission" as a substitute for physical speed? Why not just keep things simple and clear?

That's the editorial. The original manga when released as a volume didn't have it.

Spoiler

That's not the original manga. The Shonen jump releases have the blurbs, and they're the original version, used as like a hook/grab for the reader which is removed in the volumes due to them being unnecessary as you can simply flip to the next chapter. Granted, these aren't accepted as canon yet on the wiki, just brought it up as you're making a lot of arguments that also are not in cohesion with what the wiki says.

Kakashi's statement can be considered hyperbole. There are many shinobi that are on par if not super to Minato even at the time of the making of the statement. If I remember right, Kakashi said that during FRS training, am I wrong? If that's the case, then SM Naruto surpassing Minato still stands. Same applies to the P1 scan.

You can't just say it's a hyperbole cause there are people stronger than him in your opinion. You said that manga character statements are WoG no? So it being stated multiple times that Naruto is the only person who can surpass Minato isn't just something you can dismiss cause you disagree with it.

SM Naruto surpassing Minato doesn't work cause there were characters at the time of the statement that were stronger than SM Naruto anyways, like Itachi, Pain, and Obito.

A4's statement is obviously in reference to the time when they exchanged blows, it doesn't talk much about his speed compared to Minato now.

He's saying that he's only the fastest cause Minato's dead, which would imply Minato would match or surpass him if he were still around, and he stated that Minato was the greatest shinobi to ever live (at least from his perspective, not knowing of Hashirama and Madara), meaning he thinks Minato is superior to him.

That's fine. Even I believe Minato to be faster than SM Naruto. The latter is just overall stronger.

You think Base Ay is faster than WA SM Naruto? Even though he was able to keep up with the 3rd Raikage?

That's being dishonest. Its clearly FTG. We literally see the Kunai

Spoiler

Even in your scan, Tobirama praises him for teleportation not speed. This just goes on to show how FTG and speed as a stat are often considered one and the same.

He threw a kunai at the end for his entrance, but he travelled to the battlefield using Shunshin. Again, Shunshin is called teleportation.

Even if the statement meant teleportation, it's not like Minato had a marker on the battlefield to get there immediately. If anything, he threw a kunai forward, teleported to it, and did so again and again, and if he did that faster than Tobirama, that would still mean his combat speed is faster.

"...boasts the greatest divine speed of all shinobi..."

These types of statements are quite characteristic of hyperbole. Mind you, this is the fourth databook which is inclusive of characters such as Madara, Hashirama, Juubi jins, Rikudo Bros, DMS Kakashi, 8G Guy etc. So, its not correct to use this statement to put him above the likes of KCM Naruto or A4 in speed.

The statement is about Alive Minato, which was before any of these characters besides Hashirama and Madara. And how is that hyperbole? How else would it say Minato is the fastest shinobi in a way that doesn't sound hyperbolic? Maybe if it said something like "Minato has unparalleled speed" or "Minato has boundless speed" or "Minato's speed is unrivalled" or something super flowery like that, you could have an argument for hyperbole, but just saying he has the fastest speed of any shinobi is not particularly hyperbolic sounding, and is consistent with Ay's reference as the fastest shinobi being Minato.

Ay also implied that Minato was the only one who could outrun him besides Naruto.

Proof that Itachi was sure it would work? The weasel was working with whatever knowledge he had on the man he thought was Madara.

"Even if the ability would work logically I can never be sure for the guy is the man who fooled even the God of shinobi." I am pretty sure this was Itachi's line of thinking when it came to Obito. You do not simply walk up to a man like that even if you are sure you would win. The author himself recognizes this as a valid concern as he has Obito emerge unscathed from the eternal fire.

Even if he wasn't sure, potentially ridding the world of its greatest threat is too good an opportunity to pass up when he was so close to death it couldn't really backfire anyways.

Besides, Obito was hiding himself the entirety Itachi was in the Akatsuki. The latter wouldn't even know where to go.

Itachi was keeping tabs on Obito, I doubt he'd just let him completely out of his radar.

Not possible. He cannot transfer his body parts via phasing as it works subconsciously. He simply activates and deactivates it. If it was possible, he would have caught Naruto in these instances.

Spoiler

Its implied multiple times that he can only phase through a physical substance and he has no control over his body phasing beyond activating the ability.

I don't mean he can keep other parts of his body solid, but he can make it so that every part of his body would still go to the Kamui dimension upon touch but forcibly send part of his body in before making contact. Also...he could just dodge.

Obito himself has never been portrayed to be an unstoppable force. It was his reputation as the infamous Madara that gave him that portrayal. If anything Madara is the unstoppable one.

Besides Itachi, there was no one that really made him wary or anything. He even treated Pain as a pawn, the supposedly invincible leader of the Akatsuki.

That can also be interpreted as Izanagi, as the description fits the bill. Besides, we have this:

Spoiler

While the statement is not true in a literal sense as we see later. We can assume it to be the truth atleast in the instance cited ie. Obito burning. Suggesting that what Obito did to counter Amaterasu was very peculiar. And peculiar it was, as the method was literally blurring the line between imagination and reality. I have more evidence suggesting its Izanagi rather than Kamui.

Even if that is the case, he can then use Izanagi in this case if Sasuke's Amaterasu hits him, and catch him offguard from behind after reviving like with Konan. And Sasuke doesn't know Obito used Izanagi, so he might've just assume Amaterasu didn't work when it happened that one time and not try it here.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

Having other ways to take over the world doesn't mean he'd get stronger, which is what my point was, not whatever you're trying to say.

I never stated he would necessarily grow stronger either just that he would have more powerful means of threatening the world into submission which can only be rivaled by Naruto mastering Kurama.

Or it's Kishimoto symbolically comparing Naruto and Minato by pointing out that Naruto would need mastery of Kurama to defeat the same opponent as Minato.

This makes zero sense as you would be insinuating Minato is a ******.

Why would Minato give Naruto Kurama if its mastery/control would only put him at his level? Minato sacrificed his life and gave Naruto the Kyuubi because he himself felt incapable of opposing the threat that Obito would bring in the future. That's the whole point of his sacrifice. It's asinine to think that the mode implied to be superior to Obito is relative to Minato.

Because he himself was superior to Obito. So someone on his level also beating him makes sense. And keep in mind that he said Naruto would need Kurama to "stand against and hope to have any chance of defeating" Obito, not necessarily that he would beat him.

Then I guess Minato is a dumbass for giving Naruto Kurama when he himself would be capable of handling Obito.

Kakashi's far from an average shinobi. Even with the 3T Sharingan, he was able to keep up with the V2 Jinchuriki who were bodying KCM Naruto, and he had the MS activated in this scene which would amplify his ability to track movements even more.

But the shunshin was performed by KCM2 Naruto who is far superior to the V2 Jinchuuriki given the immense gap Kurama has between the other bijuu. You need to prove Kakashi was able to track that movement.

If their Shunshin speed is relative why wouldn't their physical speed be relative too? The amps should cancel out and just make them relative norally.

Because we know Shunshin has a cap from KCM2 Naruto. So while KCM2 Naruto's Shunshin and Minato's Shunshin would be relative, their base speed can still vary.

No, what the scans showed was that KCM1 was called control. Not mastery. Those are very different things. And idk if Minato knows that Bee befriended Gyuki, but even if he didn't, he knew Bee was a Perfect Jinchuriki that had full mastery of Gyuki, and since that's the only point of reference that Minato knows of, it makes sense that he meant Naruto being a Perfect Jin, since KCM isn't a form that any other Jinchuriki has anyways, so he has no reason to think of it when stating Naruto needed mastery.

What is the evidence that Minato knew Killer Bee was a Perfect Jin and had full mastery?

But he could have still meant whatever form was achievable without befriending the bijuu (we have no reason to assume he has any knowledge on the concept of that) which would still mean KCM1. It makes sense as Kyuubi has a huge gap when compared to the other bijuu that not attaining true mastery wouldn't mean that the Jin wouldn't have immense power to face whatever threat Obito would bring.

Besides, as I previously posted, Naruto himself thinks the current mode is the key to defeating Obito.

Spoiler

Supplementing this, Itachi entrusts Naruto with Madara. If Itachi didn't believe Naruto was capable of taking him on at that point, he wouldn't have done that.

Minato~Base Ay is indeed very contradicted.

Its not. Jonin Minato ~ Young V1 A4 says nothing of their standing when grown up.

I know, but when the manga means FTG it tends to use the specific wording "Teleportation ninjutsu," not "Teleportation jutsu." That's reserved for Shunshin.

Proof?

It should be noted that just before the guy says, "Teleportation Jutsu", the author highlights Minato's signature Kunai in the previous panel. So, in this case, teleportation referring to FTG is highly likely. The visual narrative states just as much.

I was just arguing about what I believe the actual truth to be, not what the wiki says, cause you're saying Minato~Base Ay, when the wiki stats have Minato>V2 Ay. Either we're both arguing by wiki standards or neither of us are.

Wiki stats were established by debaters such as you and me with staff approval. I'll probably do a CRT on that depending on if my upcoming CRT on a massive speed revision gets accepted.

However, that's not the point. I am simply going against the wiki stats that can be changed but you are going against a fundamental standard set by the wiki on how we should view databooks, that's not the same. I would say I am more in line with the wiki than you are.

He was credited for the artwork, not the writing. And no, even if the databook was written by staff, if it was given the stamp of approval by Kishimoto, it still retains full validity.

Spoiler

"...by Masahi Kishimoto and Takashi Yano."

Both Kishimoto and Takashi are mentioned as the authors by the book itself even though Takashi was the one who wrote it.

That's not what WoG means..."A statement regarding some ambiguous or undefined aspect of a work, the Word of God comes from someone considered to be the ultimate authority, such as the creator, director or producer." A character with limited knowledge is not the ultimate authority.

I see. Thanks.

The databook said WA V2 Ay~Jonin Minato.

Nah. The databook made a direct comparison between Minato and A4 not Jonin Minato and was never stated as such. Regardless, it is inferior to the manga which contradicts it.

Nerve impulses and movement are related, but that doesn't mean they're literally the same thing. Nerve impulses tell your body to move, but your body itself still needs to execute the action after being commanded. It's like how Sasuke could perceive Lee with the Sharingan, but his body wasn't fast enough to actually keep up.

That's not a good comparison. Sharingan is literally made for tracking and enhanced perception. Considering how the eye functions, its likely that Sharingan users have a much faster nerve transmission from the photoreceptors howbeit the same isn't true when it comes to the motor neurons.

The speed of the execution of action after instruction is dependent upon stamina, training, the type of muscle fibers present among a plethora of other factors. We are not aware of how the two compare in these factors and hence it would be considered the same for both. So, yes, it would imply both have the same base speed. If we are going to give an advantage to anyone, it would be A4 on account of having greater muscle mass.

When has there even been a time that Kishimoto used a term like "nerve transmission" as a substitute for physical speed? Why not just keep things simple and clear?

Nerve Transmission is a clear term though. Why are you so set on questioning Kishimoto's usage of such a term?

One can even argue, Kishimoto used the term Nerve Transmission to accurately represent C's character as a person who goes for a more scientific approach.

Kishimoto has people speak in certain ways, you know. Naruto speaks more clumsily and casually, Bee talks through rap, Itachi is more pronounced and eloquent in his speech etc. Some of my Japanese friends said that Hashirama, Madara and Tobirama spoke in a more olden Japanese dialect when compared to the other shinobi in order to signify the era they came from. So, Cee using such a term might just be his way of saying that A4 is as fast as Minato.

That's not the original manga. The Shonen jump releases have the blurbs, and they're the original version, used as like a hook/grab for the reader which is removed in the volumes due to them being unnecessary as you can simply flip to the next chapter. Granted, these aren't accepted as canon yet on the wiki, just brought it up as you're making a lot of arguments that also are not in cohesion with what the wiki says.

They are not written by the author because if they were, they wouldn't needlessly remove them.

Oh and everything I have brought forth is from the manga which does not violate the wiki standard by a bit, its you giving equal credit and at times more to the secondary canon databook.

You can't just say it's a hyperbole cause there are people stronger than him in your opinion. You said that manga character statements are WoG no?

You disproved me on the WoG, that I concede.

So it being stated multiple times that Naruto is the only person who can surpass Minato isn't just something you can dismiss cause you disagree with it.

I do not dismiss it because I disagree with it lol. That would be fallacious. I dismiss it because its demonstrably untrue. Kakashi can just lack knowledge on all those who are more powerful than the fourth or simply be biased. In any case, since this was during the FRS training, it can be attributed to his lack of knowledge of all those superior to the fourth.

SM Naruto surpassing Minato doesn't work cause there were characters at the time of the statement that were stronger than SM Naruto anyways, like Itachi, Pain, and Obito.

Basically what I said above. We have no reason to assume Kakashi has any idea of the true extent of the abilities of the mentioned characters.

He's saying that he's only the fastest cause Minato's dead, which would imply Minato would match or surpass him if he were still around, and he stated that Minato was the greatest shinobi to ever live (at least from his perspective, not knowing of Hashirama and Madara), meaning he thinks Minato is superior to him.

I have no problem believing that a Minato with 17 years+ experience would be superior to A4 in speed, that still doesn't change the fact that since the guy is dead, A4 had nearly two decades to surpass him. And his statement being in reference to a time when the yellow flash was alive and he was younger and below Minato in speed.

You think Base Ay is faster than WA SM Naruto? Even though he was able to keep up with the 3rd Raikage?

That's not what happened truly, though. It was a single instance and we know SM Naruto's reactions were boosted by the better danger sense which results in higher reaction and evasion speed. This would be true even against Minato. How can Naruto be stronger than Minato if he can't even react to him.

I can also argue that this is a stronger SM Naruto by virtue of being in the war for long.

He threw a kunai at the end for his entrance, but he travelled to the battlefield using Shunshin. Again, Shunshin is called teleportation.

Proof that he used Shunshin? Both Flash step and FTG are called teleportation. In the scans you cited there wasn't really anyone present at the time who had teleportation such as FTG so, its okay to call it that but I doubt Kishimoto would make this mistake when someone uses FTG and hence, would distinguish both techniques properly.

Even if the statement meant teleportation, it's not like Minato had a marker on the battlefield to get there immediately. If anything, he threw a kunai forward, teleported to it, and did so again and again, and if he did that faster than Tobirama, that would still mean his combat speed is faster.

You forgot that he had marked Gyuki, didn't you?

Spoiler

The statement is about Alive Minato, which was before any of these characters besides Hashirama and Madara.

Huh? The statement was in the 4th Databook which came after the end of the manga. A person who reads this databook would be aware of characters like Hashirama, Madara, Juubi Jinchuuriki's etc. which would give them a wrong impression Minato's speed when compared to said characters.

And how is that hyperbole? How else would it say Minato is the fastest shinobi in a way that doesn't sound hyperbolic? Maybe if it said something like "Minato has unparalleled speed" or "Minato has boundless speed" or "Minato's speed is unrivalled" or something super flowery like that, you could have an argument for hyperbole, but just saying he has the fastest speed of any shinobi is not particularly hyperbolic sounding,

"Greatest Divine Speed of ALL Shinobi" is not hyperbolic sounding? Its sounds like he is the God of speed that's unrivaled by any shinobi.

and is consistent with Ay's reference as the fastest shinobi being Minato.

Yes, based on the time they fought in the past, does not say anything of their current standing.

Ay also implied that Minato was the only one who could outrun him besides Naruto.

And I clearly showed you Minato outrunning was via FTG. I literally posted the parallel.

Spoiler

Even if he wasn't sure, potentially ridding the world of its greatest threat is too good an opportunity to pass up when he was so close to death it couldn't really backfire anyways.

It really could. Because in the off scenario that Amaterasu failed, he would be in a face-off with the dreaded Madara. There's no way he can face Madara and then go on a straining battle with Sasuke and achieve whatever he needed to with him.

Itachi was keeping tabs on Obito, I doubt he'd just let him completely out of his radar.

That's still not proof that he would be aware of his location.

I don't mean he can keep other parts of his body solid, but he can make it so that every part of his body would still go to the Kamui dimension upon touch but forcibly send part of his body in before making contact.

I need evidence that he can do something like this. As I said he doesn't seem to have the ability to send his body parts forcibly.

Also...he could just dodge.

Brother, that's what I said.

Although I don't see much of a case for Deathbed Itachi as he was already 90% blind. I imagine, he'd have trouble keeping a good eye on Obito as Sasuke himself was a blur to him.

Itachi is basically blind at the point so, Obito dodging is very likely.

Besides Itachi, there was no one that really made him wary or anything. He even treated Pain as a pawn, the supposedly invincible leader of the Akatsuki.

Yes by his reputation as Madara. This doesn't speak much of Obito himself. Everyone who faced him feared his identity as Madara who was more akin to a mythological God at the time.

Even if that is the case, he can then use Izanagi in this case if Sasuke's Amaterasu hits him, and catch him offguard from behind after reviving like with Konan.

Naruto can possibly intercept that.

And Sasuke doesn't know Obito used Izanagi, so he might've just assume Amaterasu didn't work when it happened that one time and not try it here.

This is a good point. However, I highly doubt he would not even try the technique, after all, he may reason, the only reason Obito came out of it alive was because the Amaterasu at that point was very slow and measly.

---

We can agree to disagree if you want. As I see it, I just have a stricter definition of what's canon, so neither of us are inherently in the wrong.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I never stated he would necessarily grow stronger either just that he would have more powerful means of threatening the world into submission which can only be rivaled by Naruto mastering Kurama.

This makes zero sense as you would be insinuating Minato is a ******.

Why would Minato give Naruto Kurama if its mastery/control would only put him at his level? Minato sacrificed his life and gave Naruto the Kyuubi because he himself felt incapable of opposing the threat that Obito would bring in the future. That's the whole point of his sacrifice. It's asinine to think that the mode implied to be superior to Obito is relative to Minato.


Then I guess Minato is a dumbass for giving Naruto Kurama when he himself would be capable of handling Obito.

But the shunshin was performed by KCM2 Naruto who is far superior to the V2 Jinchuuriki given the immense gap Kurama has between the other bijuu. You need to prove Kakashi was able to track that movement.

Because we know Shunshin has a cap from KCM2 Naruto. So while KCM2 Naruto's Shunshin and Minato's Shunshin would be relative, their base speed can still vary.

What is the evidence that Minato knew Killer Bee was a Perfect Jin and had full mastery?

But he could have still meant whatever form was achievable without befriending the bijuu (we have no reason to assume he has any knowledge on the concept of that) which would still mean KCM1. It makes sense as Kyuubi has a huge gap when compared to the other bijuu that not attaining true mastery wouldn't mean that the Jin wouldn't have immense power to face whatever threat Obito would bring.

Besides, as I previously posted, Naruto himself thinks the current mode is the key to defeating Obito.

Spoiler

Supplementing this, Itachi entrusts Naruto with Madara. If Itachi didn't believe Naruto was capable of taking him on at that point, he wouldn't have done that.


Its not. Jonin Minato ~ Young V1 A4 says nothing of their standing when grown up.


Proof?

It should be noted that just before the guy says, "Teleportation Jutsu", the author highlights Minato's signature Kunai in the previous panel. So, in this case, teleportation referring to FTG is highly likely. The visual narrative states just as much.


Wiki stats were established by debaters such as you and me with staff approval. I'll probably do a CRT on that depending on if my upcoming CRT on a massive speed revision gets accepted.

However, that's not the point. I am simply going against the wiki stats that can be changed but you are going against a fundamental standard set by the wiki on how we should view databooks, that's not the same. I would say I am more in line with the wiki than you are.

Spoiler

"...by Masahi Kishimoto and Takashi Yano."

Both Kishimoto and Takashi are mentioned as the authors by the book itself even though Takashi was the one who wrote it.


I see. Thanks.


Nah. The databook made a direct comparison between Minato and A4 not Jonin Minato and was never stated as such. Regardless, it is inferior to the manga which contradicts it.


That's not a good comparison. Sharingan is literally made for tracking and enhanced perception. Considering how the eye functions, its likely that Sharingan users have a much faster nerve transmission from the photoreceptors howbeit the same isn't true when it comes to the motor neurons.

The speed of the execution of action after instruction is dependent upon stamina, training, the type of muscle fibers present among a plethora of other factors. We are not aware of how the two compare in these factors and hence it would be considered the same for both. So, yes, it would imply both have the same base speed. If we are going to give an advantage to anyone, it would be A4 on account of having greater muscle mass.


Nerve Transmission is a clear term though. Why are you so set on questioning Kishimoto's usage of such a term?

One can even argue, Kishimoto used the term Nerve Transmission to accurately represent C's character as a person who goes for a more scientific approach.

Kishimoto has people speak in certain ways, you know. Naruto speaks more clumsily and casually, Bee talks through rap, Itachi is more pronounced and eloquent in his speech etc. Some of my Japanese friends said that Hashirama, Madara and Tobirama spoke in a more olden Japanese dialect when compared to the other shinobi in order to signify the era they came from. So, Cee using such a term might just be his way of saying that A4 is as fast as Minato.

They are not written by the author because if they were, they wouldn't needlessly remove them.

Oh and everything I have brought forth is from the manga which does not violate the wiki standard by a bit, its you giving equal credit and at times more to the secondary canon databook.

You disproved me on the WoG, that I concede.


I do not dismiss it because I disagree with it lol. That would be fallacious. I dismiss it because its demonstrably untrue. Kakashi can just lack knowledge on all those who are more powerful than the fourth or simply be biased. In any case, since this was during the FRS training, it can be attributed to his lack of knowledge of all those superior to the fourth.


Basically what I said above. We have no reason to assume Kakashi has any idea of the true extent of the abilities of the mentioned characters.


I have no problem believing that a Minato with 17 years+ experience would be superior to A4 in speed, that still doesn't change the fact that since the guy is dead, A4 had nearly two decades to surpass him. And his statement being in reference to a time when the yellow flash was alive and he was younger and below Minato in speed.


That's not what happened truly, though. It was a single instance and we know SM Naruto's reactions were boosted by the better danger sense which results in higher reaction and evasion speed. This would be true even against Minato. How can Naruto be stronger than Minato if he can't even react to him.

I can also argue that this is a stronger SM Naruto by virtue of being in the war for long.


Proof that he used Shunshin? Both Flash step and FTG are called teleportation. In the scans you cited there wasn't really anyone present at the time who had teleportation such as FTG so, its okay to call it that but I doubt Kishimoto would make this mistake when someone uses FTG and hence, would distinguish both techniques properly.


You forgot that he had marked Gyuki, didn't you?

Spoiler

Huh? The statement was in the 4th Databook which came after the end of the manga. A person who reads this databook would be aware of characters like Hashirama, Madara, Juubi Jinchuuriki's etc. which would give them a wrong impression Minato's speed when compared to said characters.


"Greatest Divine Speed of ALL Shinobi" is not hyperbolic sounding? Its sounds like he is the God of speed that's unrivaled by any shinobi.


Yes, based on the time they fought in the past, does not say anything of their current standing.


And I clearly showed you Minato outrunning was via FTG. I literally posted the parallel.

Spoiler

It really could. Because in the off scenario that Amaterasu failed, he would be in a face-off with the dreaded Madara. There's no way he can face Madara and then go on a straining battle with Sasuke and achieve whatever he needed to with him.


That's still not proof that he would be aware of his location.


I need evidence that he can do something like this. As I said he doesn't seem to have the ability to send his body parts forcibly.


Brother, that's what I said.


Itachi is basically blind at the point so, Obito dodging is very likely.


Yes by his reputation as Madara. This doesn't speak much of Obito himself. Everyone who faced him feared his identity as Madara who was more akin to a mythological God at the time.


Naruto can possibly intercept that.


This is a good point. However, I highly doubt he would not even try the technique, after all, he may reason, the only reason Obito came out of it alive was because the Amaterasu at that point was very slow and measly.

---

We can agree to disagree if you want. As I see it, I just have a stricter definition of what's canon, so neither of us are inherently in the wrong.

Sry I didn't respond for a while, but yeah I'm fine with agreeing to disagree cause I don't see this going anywhere. But just a piece of advice, there's an almost zero chance that you'll get Minato~Base Ay accepted during the speed revisions.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

Sry I didn't respond for a while, but yeah I'm fine with agreeing to disagree cause I don't see this going anywhere.

Nah. Its not a problem.

But just a piece of advice, there's an almost zero chance that you'll get Minato~Base Ay accepted during the speed revisions.

I have the manga by my side. So, I am keen to see the arguments that would apparently supersede that.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I have the manga by my side. So, I am keen to see the arguments that would apparently supersede that.

More of the manga material, databooks, canon games, etc.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

More of the manga material, databooks, canon games, etc.

Canon games are trouble since, I am not versed in them much but I am pretty damn sure the staff won't put the manga above those.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Canon games are trouble since, I am not versed in them much but I am pretty damn sure the staff won't put the manga above those.

The staff like the databooks for scaling

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

The staff like the databooks for scaling

I am not worried. I had already asked the staff on what scaling would be considered canon and most of them agreed it was the manga, the databooks are purely secondary and meant to be thrown out if they are not in line with what the manga insinuates.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I am not worried. I had already asked the staff on what scaling would be considered canon and most of them agreed it was the manga, the databooks are purely secondary and meant to be thrown out if they are not in line with what the manga insinuates.

Yeah, that's not how the wiki tends to operate...It doesn't completely throw out a databook thing unless there's something very strong against it.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

Yeah, that's not how the wiki tends to operate...It doesn't completely throw out a databook thing unless there's something very strong against it.

I asked the staff, my friend, when we were having our debate. They thoroughly said to make a manga scaling and use the databook and other sources to justify it. Do not use evidence from the databook if they contradict the scaling we could forge from the manga. People seem to forget that the databooks are there to provide more information on what's been established by the manga, their statements do not supersede it. The statements the former makes should not be required to make a sound argument, it is only needed to make it stronger or provide extra info.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I asked the staff, my friend, when we were having our debate. They thoroughly said to make a manga scaling and use the databook and other sources to justify it. Do not use evidence from the databook if they contradict the scaling we could forge from the manga. People seem to forget that the databooks are there to provide more information on what's been established by the manga, their statements do not supersede it. The statements the former makes should not be required to make a sound argument, it is only needed to make it stronger or provide extra info.

But that's the thing. It rarely, if ever, truly contradicts the manga. Most of the time stuff just needs to be interpreted the right way to fit together. Like for example, Ay stating Minato is faster than him while the databook states he's just as fast as Minato. A reinterpretation of that would be that The Yellow Flash refers to Jonin Minato, or since it's referring to an image of V1 Ay, it could mean Minato's base movement speed is relative to V1 Ay's Shunshin while his own Shunshin speed is above V2 Ay's, etc. It's very difficult to find a true contradiction.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

But that's the thing. It rarely, if ever, truly contradicts the manga. Most of the time stuff just needs to be interpreted the right way to fit together. Like for example, Ay stating Minato is faster than him while the databook states he's just as fast as Minato. A reinterpretation of that would be that The Yellow Flash refers to Jonin Minato, or since it's referring to an image of V1 Ay, it could mean Minato's base movement speed is relative to V1 Ay's Shunshin while his own Shunshin speed is above V2 Ay's, etc. It's very difficult to find a true contradiction.

Except what we should reinterpret should be the databook, not the manga. That's the fallacy, we shouldn't re-interpret the manga to accomodate the databook. Re-interpretation should only be done with the databook.

In the above example, I can also interpret it as Minato's speed being superior to young V2 A4's speed. As the latter couldn't have possibly fought him for the past 17 years which is alot for someone to grow but since they could be no rematch A4 would be forced to admit Minato is faster going by their last battle. And the databook statement meaning Hokage Minato's Shunshin being equal to V1 A4's speed.

Think of a marathon, A beats B by a good margin. Over the next half a decade, B trains rigorously to become faster but by the end of it A retires and they can no longer have a rematch to see who's faster now. The very same could have happened here.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Except what we should reinterpret should be the databook, not the manga. That's the fallacy, we shouldn't re-interpret the manga to accomodate the databook. Re-interpretation should only be done with the databook.

? That's what I did. The manga states Minato is faster than Ay while the databook states Ay is as fast as Minato. I made a reinterpretation to fit with Minato still being faster than Ay.

In the above example, I can also interpret it as Minato's speed being superior to young V2 A4's speed. As the latter couldn't have possibly fought him for the past 17 years which is alot for someone to grow but since they could be no rematch A4 would be forced to admit Minato is faster going by their last battle. And the databook statement meaning Hokage Minato's Shunshin being equal to V1 A4's speed.

Why would Minato being faster back in the day be relevant when he's talking about his current speed? If someone beat Ay in a race when he was a child and that person died, would he say he's the fastest shinobi since that person died? No, because their speed is nothing compared to his current speed, so in the context of him saying he can't be outran now, Minato being slower than him wouldn't fit with the scene at all. Especially since he said that a greater shinobi never lived, which would include himself.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

? That's what I did. The manga states Minato is faster than Ay while the databook states Ay is as fast as Minato. I made a reinterpretation to fit with Minato still being faster than Ay.

The problem here is your re-interpretation throws Fukasaku and Cee out the window. That's not acceptable.

Why would Minato being faster back in the day be relevant when he's talking about his current speed?

Proof that he's talking about his current speed? A4 fought Minato when he was young so obviously, that will be the time he will use for reference, it would have been a different case if A4 hadn't met Minato but since they have, it would be logical to conclude that he was referring to those days, especially considering A4 talks about the time they exchanged blows.

If someone beat Ay in a race when he was a child and that person died, would he say he's the fastest shinobi since that person died? No, because their speed is nothing compared to his current speed, so in the context of him saying he can't be outran now, Minato being slower than him wouldn't fit with the scene at all. Especially since he said that a greater shinobi never lived, which would include himself.

I am pretty sure he would but that could be rescinded if he had a good reason to be majorly faster than the person who died, such as learning RCM. Regardless, this argument is moot for we do not know if a person such as that existed. Since, we know, in those 17 years A4 didn't gain any new speed enhancers but simply grew like the others, without appropriate reasoning or a re-match, it would be wrong for him to state that he's faster than him. Especially since he was citing the time they fought.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

The problem here is your re-interpretation throws Fukasaku and Cee out the window. That's not acceptable.

Your interpretation throws a lot more than 2 random people out the window.

Proof that he's talking about his current speed? A4 fought Minato when he was young so obviously, that will be the time he will use for reference, it would have been a different case if A4 hadn't met Minato but since they have, it would be logical to conclude that he was referring to those days, especially considering A4 talks about the time they exchanged blows.

Cause he's saying no one is faster than him in present day.

I am pretty sure he would but that could be rescinded if he had a good reason to be majorly faster than the person who died, such as learning RCM. Regardless, this argument is moot for we do not know if a person such as that existed. Since, we know, in those 17 years A4 didn't gain any new speed enhancers but simply grew like the others, without appropriate reasoning or a re-match, it would be wrong for him to state that he's faster than him. Especially since he was citing the time they fought.

Why would he? He could just say he's the fastest shinobi period without bringing up that random person for no reason. It's not like he was given any specific reason to mention Minato. The most logical reason for him to bring someone up from the past would be because he thought that the only reason he's the fastest is cause Minato's not around.

Why would it necessarily be wrong? If Minato back then was faster than he is now, the statement's valid. And you ignored this.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

Your interpretation throws a lot more than 2 random people out the window.

My interpretation is consistent with the manga. You are the one going against the wiki standards by putting the Databook on an equal/superior stand compared to the manga.

Cause he's saying no one is faster than him in present day.

Proof? LOL. He literally states that he was the fastest shinobi since, Minato died. There's a 17 years gap where A4 could have grown stronger. It is after this your scan comes into play, A4 refers to the time they exchanged blows. Cementing it to be a past truth, but it does not mean it is a present one.

Why would he? He could just say he's the fastest shinobi period without bringing up that random person for no reason. It's not like he was given any specific reason to mention Minato. The most logical reason for him to bring someone up from the past would be because he thought that the only reason he's the fastest is cause Minato's not around.

I basically answered this before.

I have no problem believing that a Minato with 17 years+ experience would be superior to A4 in speed, that still doesn't change the fact that since the guy is dead, A4 had nearly two decades to surpass him.

In addition to this, one can also argue, he brought up Minato because Naruto was his son. Considering he would go onto incriminate Minato and say that he made mistakes, its well within reason to believe that he brought up Minato specifically for that purpose.

Why would it necessarily be wrong? If Minato back then was faster than he is now, the statement's valid.

No Minato back then was faster than A4 back then. This speaks nothing of how A4 is now.

And you ignored this.

I cited that very scan in my previous reply and above.

Proof that he's talking about his current speed? A4 fought Minato when he was young so obviously, that will be the time he will use for reference, it would have been a different case if A4 hadn't met Minato but since they have, it would be logical to conclude that he was referring to those days, especially considering A4 talks about the time they exchanged blows.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

My interpretation is consistent with the manga. You are the one going against the wiki standards by putting the Databook on an equal/superior stand compared to the manga.

It's not against the wiki standards when it's literally been accepted and is on his page...

Proof? LOL. He literally states that he was the fastest shinobi since, Minato died. There's a 17 years gap where A4 could have grown stronger. It is after this your scan comes into play, A4 refers to the time they exchanged blows. Cementing it to be a past truth, but it does not mean it is a present one.

Wdym proof? He said there is no shinobi faster than him, which is a present tense statement.

I basically answered this before.

What I said was a response to that.

In addition to this, one can also argue, he brought up Minato because Naruto was his son. Considering he would go onto incriminate Minato and say that he made mistakes, its well within reason to believe that he brought up Minato specifically for that purpose.

Is there any proof he even knew Minato was his son before Naruto used the word pa? That was supposed to be a secret even in Konoha.

No Minato back then was faster than A4 back then. This speaks nothing of how A4 is now.

That's not a counter to what I said.

I cited that very scan in my previous reply and above.

If he surpassed Minato then he would be a finer shinobi than Minato. But he's saying that based on his experiences with Minato back then, Minato's still the strongest person he's ever known.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

It's not against the wiki standards when it's literally been accepted and is on his page...

A billionth time but ok...

Databook: A databook is a book containing statistics for manga or anime characters. This is usually done to provide extra info and backstory to characters and is usually done for shounen manga. Most databooks are considered secondary canon and as such are no match against manga scans. Some databooks are unreliable because it's either not written by the author or contain info disproven by scans and manga.

As the staffs said, take the manga first and use the databook to justify it. Don't take the databook as equal or superior evidence to the manga. Manga statements always > Databook.

Wdym proof? He said there is no shinobi faster than him, which is a present tense statement.

"...Ever since Minato died." - Past Tense. 17 years in the past

Minato while alive was faster than him, but since he died, there was nobody of his knowledge who could rival him.

What I said was a response to that.

You responded to my response with what I responded to?

Is there any proof he even knew Minato was his son before Naruto used the word pa? That was supposed to be a secret even in Konoha.

Lack of surprise and how he was immediate to jump to how Minato was mistaken to underestimate the bijuu and put it inside his son. The way he continued on showed no signs that he was unaware of the fact previously.

Neither Bee nor Tsunade showed any surprise. The former for realizing that the kid he had been training was a tough opponent in his past and Tsunade being surprised as to how A4 knew.

I am pretty sure all the high-ranking members of the ninja world were aware of this fact. Even Itachi who basically spent his life as a rogue ninja was aware of it, probably by virtue of being the heir to the Uchiha or Danzo.

That's not a counter to what I said.

It is.

If he surpassed Minato then he would be a finer shinobi than Minato. But he's saying that based on his experiences with Minato back then, Minato's still the strongest person he's ever known.

Yes, based on past experiences in a time when Minato was stronger. The finer and more noble statement is in reference to Minato's character. This is no different from Hashirama claiming that Itachi was a greater shinobi than himself.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with GokuSparkle FRA.