Slayer Magic Crt

[Antvasima]

Like Damage, I think that LordGinSama seems to make good points, but I haven't had the time to read this entire thread, and am too overworked to continue to subscribe to it. My apologies.

 

[Zackra1799]

I'd also like to point out the questionable use of hyperbole here

This is our definition of Hyperbole that relevant to the discussion:

A general rule is that if a claim is made that is completely out of league of anything ever shown in said universe (for example, if someone claimed to be a planet buster in a verse where the strongest feats were city busting), it's most likely a hyperbole.

Another way of determining weather a statement is a hyperbole or not is to consider the likelihood that a character was misinformed, ignorant, lying, exaggerating, bluffing, mentally unstable, etc. when they made said statement. If there is not any evidence that they were, it can be taken more seriously. Of course, this method isn't as accurate as the feat scaling method above, and should only be relied upon if the first method doesn't give any clear answers.

Dragon Slaying Magic having Soul Manipulation against dragons is neither of these given many different types of magic in the verse have the ability to interact with Souls directly and indirectly. There is also no evidence that Levy was any of those either given she made 2 accurate statements alongside the Dragon Soul Manip statement.

 

[LordGinSama]

I'd also like to point out the questionable use of hyperbole here

This is our definition of Hyperbole that relevant to the discussion:

A general rule is that if a claim is made that is completely out of league of anything ever shown in said universe (for example, if someone claimed to be a planet buster in a verse where the strongest feats were city busting), it's most likely a hyperbole.

Another way of determining weather a statement is a hyperbole or not is to consider the likelihood that a character was misinformed, ignorant, lying, exaggerating, bluffing, mentally unstable, etc. when they made said statement. If there is not any evidence that they were, it can be taken more seriously. Of course, this method isn't as accurate as the feat scaling method above, and should only be relied upon if the first method doesn't give any clear answers.

And yet, amazingly none of that actually supports your argument.

Dragon Slaying Magic having Soul Manipulation against dragons is neither of these given many different types of magic in the verse have the ability to interact with Souls directly and indirectly.

Dragon Slaying Magic isn't one of those forms of Magic unfortunately, besides a singular iffy statement, there's no indication of Dragon Slayer Magic having any soul manipulating aspect.

There is also no evidence that Levy was any of those either given she made 2 accurate statements alongside the Dragon Soul Manip statement.

Which is irrelevant, given the fact that


A: Levy was most certainly exaggerating on the effect of Dragon Slayer Magic, again we can see that she's clearly distraught as evident by her friend being beaten to a pulp, and the fact that she's sweating and speaking in an intimidated fashion. (Taking breaks between them and exclaiming.)


B: She didn't make 2 other accurate statements, this is all one entire statements. Let's not misconstrue this to make it seem like she said so on more than one occasion, in Fairy Tail it's general knowledge that Dragon Scales are the soruce of a Dragon's Durability, they are reptilian after all. A living creature with thick hard scales, breaking them is a pretty obvious factor.

So you basically want what I said just without the actual indexing of the ability, that sounds really dumb to me.

Because you fail to realize the difference between the words "Negate" and "Bypass." Zancrow could bypass Natsu's resistance to fire manipulation, due to their forms of Magic working on a system of superiority. There is no "negation." Or "limited" negation here.

Levy wasn't at all shaken when she made her statement so I don't know where you were getting that from.

Yeah, this is a bunch of nonsense and we both know it. Levy is visibly shaking, sweating nervously and crying. An awful lot of crying. To say Levy wasn't shaken nor distraught in any way is asinine and an outright lie. ****, Laxus literally just tried to kill her and her friends.

Yeah no, you said earlier that there is no possible way that Levy would know the fine details of DSM, yet now your calling said detail trivial? That's pretty contradictory if you ask me. It can't be both so make your argument consistent please.

My argument is perfectly consistent, and not only that but the fact that your hung up on a usage of a word despite it being a word to counter your claims. (I.E Natsu not needing to correct her, despite him being in no condition to do so.)

Levy provided multiple correct statements about Dragon Slayer Magic in that panel which suggests she has knowledge about Dragon Slaying Magic, there done.

No she doesn't, again this is outright misconstruing the truth. This is a single statement, not mutiple. And no, not done, you haven't proven her knowledge at all.

But the fact is that it's never corrected in verse so you can't say that the statement is hyperbolic because there is no anti evidence that coincides with your argument. You actually haven't provided any evidence to support the Hyperbole argument. You've just stated that it was a hyperbole.

Unfortunately for you that doesn't work like that. "The fact that it's never corrected in verse means it isn't hyperbole" isn't an actual argument. It's never corrected because its never. up again in any of the Fairy Tail media, which would again support this statement being hyperbolic in nature.


And I don't need to prove it's a Hyperbole, you need to prove that it isn't a hyperbole, not sure how many times I need to tell you it isn't up to me to prove a negative, it's up to you to prove a positive. And I've given multiple reasons to consider this a hyperbole, which it is.

The accepted mechanics of Dragon Slaying Magic is that Dragons have scales that normal attacks cannot get through. Dragon Slayer Magic negates this durability and cuts through to their insides. That there is the proof that Levy knows what she is talking about, given multiple of her statements are in fact correct.

Firstly, no the mechanics behind Dragon Slayer Magic involves nothing about Slayer's targetting organs of Dragons. All they'd need to do is bypass the outer layer of scales, and boom they can hurt Dragons. Not to mention, you continue to misconstrue this. No, this isn't multiple statements, it's one enitre statement, and it's more of a sentence than a statement. It's all together, not her making 3 different statements at different points in time.

Occam's Razor would then say that her third statement is also factual given it's outlandish for her to tell 2 truths and immediately lie for no apparent reason.

Read above, and no Occam's Razor doesn't support her "third." statement being factual. There is no "third." statement as I said before, this is you misconstruing and warping it to suit your narrative.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Soul Manip
Can we not forget that Acno ripped the souls out of the Dragon Parents? When you got the very victims of said ability (dragon parents), a knowledgeable person (Levy) commenting on the applications of the ability, another knowledgeable person (Anna) and the most prolific user of the ability (Acno) both saying something that supports the ability, I start to get the feeling that maybe, just maybe, the ability is a thing.

But the opposition is clearly correct. The three statements have to be hyperbole and the two feats can't be the case. Knowledgeable people and what would be the experts on said ability are obviously lying.

Resistance Negation
A and B are relative in AP, A has resistance to flames, A can't resist B's flames.

Conclusion: B's flames bypass/negate A's fire resistance.

Absorption Resistance
X can absorb fire, Y throws fire at X, X can't absorb fire when it comes from Y.

Conclusion is that fire from Y resists absorption.

 

[LordGinSama]

Soul Manip
Can we not forget that Acno ripped the souls out of the Dragon Parents? When you got the very victims of said ability (dragon parents)

False Translations first of all, they don't do a very good job at providing further context in that translation. this is the real translation, which states he used a type of Drgaon Slayer Magic that extracted their souls. The key word here being "type." not to mention something that Acnologia can do, isn't something that every Slayer can do.

, a knowledgeable person (Levy) commenting on the applications of the ability,

Levy isn't knowledgeable regarding Dragon Slayer Magic, and that's also very likely hyperbole.

another knowledgeable person (Anna) and the most prolific user of the ability (Acno) both saying something that supports the ability, I start to get the feeling that maybe, just maybe, the ability is a thing.

And fortunately, none of what you just posted there is evidence for Soul destruction for Slayers. Acnologia's body was spilt as a result or a override in Magic Power, not as a result of his Dragon Slaying Magic so that's irrelevant.

But the opposition is clearly correct. The three statements have to be hyperbole and the two feats can't be the case. Knowledgeable people and what would be the experts on said ability are obviously lying.

Expect for

1: There isn't 3, it's all one single statement that's based around hyperbole.

2: Levy isn't knowledgeable regarding DSM nor is she can expert by any means.

Resistance Negation
A and B are relative in AP, A has resistance to flames, A can't resist B's flames.

Conclusion: B's flames bypass/negate A's fire resistance.

And a false conclusion at that, AP is irrelevant to Heat Resistance to begin with, secondly no.


False comparision, as that doesn't take into consideration the Superiority system that God Slayer and Devil Slayer have, as Zancrow states mutiple times. This is a caveat for Slayer Resistance, not a feat for God Slayer Magic.

Absorption Resistance
X can absorb fire, Y throws fire at X, X can't absorb fire when it comes from Y.

Conclusion is that fire from Y resists absorption.

Again, unfortunately for you that's not the case. But yeah sure, go right ahead and ignore the blatant hierarchy system of superiority that GSM and DSM shares. Gods >>> Dragons, the weaker of the two obviously isn't gonna resist something stronger.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Acno is the Magic Dragon Slayer, that’s his element. He throws around magic that has Dragon Slayer aspect to it. So unless you want to argue all magic has soul manip, it’s because the magic was Dragon Slayer magic.

Everything else in the verse Levy says is correct so why is this one statement wrong? You keep saying hyperbole but you never prove anything.

Levy: Dragon Slayer Magic does X, Y and Z
DSM does X, Y and Z
Gin: It’s hyperbole

Explain what qualifies someone as a legit source of info? Because as it stands, being correct on everything you say with no contradictions and the very topic of your statement being shown to be true isn’t enough.



You missed the words that followed Acno and Anna. I said they say stuff that supports soul manip which is that Acno exists as a soul. Two people who didn’t talk to each other about the split that just happened both came to the same conclusion which is that Acno’s soul was separated from his body and now existed in SBT until he stabilised his new power. You realise this means all the Slayers are now affecting the soul of a dragon? Which has been stated to be something their magic does?

You missed the words that followed Acno and Anna. I said they say stuff that supports soul manip which is that Acno exists as a soul. Two people who didn’t talk to each other about the split that just happened both came to the same conclusion which is that Acno’s soul was separated from his body and now existed in SBT until he stabilised his new power. You realise this means all the Slayers are now affecting the soul of a dragon? Which has been stated to be something their magic does?

Except it’s not heat resistance? This ain’t a situation like Madmole where Natsu specifically overpowers a stated heat resist via getting hotter, it’s fire resistance as stated and shown multiple times. It isn’t some caveat for dragons where they can’t absorb/resist an element from any god, it’s a feat for gods being able to bypass the abilities of dragons because the quality of the god flames is superior to dragon flames.

This is literally just like the Gonzui “caveat” argument because Tatsuki has a stronger soul than normal. Just because something is stronger than normal doesn’t mean what fails against them has a caveat. The same goes here when Zancrow says that Natsu can’t resist or eat the fire because god flames > dragon flames. Man literally said that his power is on a different level than Natsu with Natsu being relative in AP. This means the level refers to the quality of his flames much like he has been explaining.

And are you actually arguing AP has nothing to do with resisting a fire attack? I guess Natsu resists Tier 3 fire now. Upgrade time bois

Gin ...... what you are arguing rn is legitimately stupid. If a dragon can absorb X and then a god comes in with X where it’s quality is too much to be absorbed by the former, that means it resists being absorbed. This isn’t hard to comprehend. This hierarchy BS you keep bringing up doesn’t matter when the fire is still doing what Zack said it does. None of what you said discredits the fact that the fire of Gods is harder to absorb, especially when we see it right there on panel and is a major aspect of the fight.

 

[LordGinSama]

Acno is the Magic Dragon Slayer, that’s his element. He throws around magic that has Dragon Slayer aspect to it. So unless you want to argue all magic has soul manip, it’s because the magic was Dragon Slayer magic.

This is the first Paragraph and i already see several forms of Strawman Fallacies, that alone should speak magnitudes for your argument but whatever, I'll entertain it. Acnologia's Soul Manipulation comes from a type of Dragon Slayer spell. The spell itself is unknown, never stated and never utilized again. It's both extremely vague and inconsistent with the rest of his showings.


They note he did this with a particular spell, not with his DSM in general. Natsu can't utilize lightning spells while in a form that doesn't utilize lightning, this virtually no different.

Everything else in the verse Levy says is correct so why is this one statement wrong? You keep saying hyperbole but you never prove anything.

I don't think you children even realize how the Burden of Proof works. It isn't up to me to prove that's it's a hyperbole, it's up to you to prove a positive and so far you haven't other than pure speculation. (Saying Levy is knowledgeable on something she's never been shown to be isn't evidence.)

Levy: Dragon Slayer Magic does X, Y and Z
DSM does X, Y and Z
Gin: It’s hyperbole

Explain what qualifies someone as a legit source of info? Because as it stands, being correct on everything you say with no contradictions and the very topic of your statement being shown to be true isn’t enough.

A: Someome being knowledgeable in the field they are currently referring to, Levy is smart sure she's a bookworm but she has never shown to be knowledgeable on how Dragon Slayer Magic works, nor has she ever been implied to have that knowledge. A chiropractor has no authority to give out statements of information regarding astro physics.


B: Again, prove that this isn't a hyperbole.

You missed the words that followed Acno and Anna. I said they say stuff that supports soul manip which is that Acno exists as a soul. Two people who didn’t talk to each other about the split that just happened both came to the same conclusion which is that Acno’s soul was separated from his body and now existed in SBT until he stabilised his new power. You realise this means all the Slayers are now affecting the soul of a dragon? Which has been stated to be something their magic does?

Didn't miss any of the words, I didn't address it for a reason. There's no corrections to be made to Devil Slayer Magic being able to interact with Dragon Souls and such. Acnologia being in a spiritual body and a flesh body is irrelevant, as Acnologia isn't intangible in his soul form, not all forms of souls are intangible and this is one of those cases, nothing suggests that DSM can interact with Dragon Souls. Oh and by the way, major difference between Soul Removal and Soul Destruction.


Hell if anything there are MAJOR conflicting statements that emphasize on Dragon Slayers not being able to interact with the souls of other Slayers like Wraith for example, a Dragon Slayer much like Natsu. Natsu was unable to interact with Wraith because Wraith is a soul, a soul that cannot be interacted with. This is heavily emphasized that Natsu needs to be a soul to interact with them, even those who share Dragon like properties like Wraith.

You missed the words that followed Acno and Anna. I said they say stuff that supports soul manip which is that Acno exists as a soul. Two people who didn’t talk to each other about the split that just happened both came to the same conclusion which is that Acno’s soul was separated from his body and now existed in SBT until he stabilised his new power. You realise this means all the Slayers are now affecting the soul of a dragon? Which has been stated to be something their magic does?

This again, is false once again there is no correlation between Acnologia's Soul being spilt due to the vast power he absorbed and Dragon Slayers being able to interact with a Dragon Soul. For starters Acnologia clearly isn't intangible. Here's Natsu attacking a Dragon Ghost for example and failing to interact with him. Don't @ me with "all souls are intangible" because they aren't, souls vary from media to media and from religion to religion.

Except it’s not heat resistance? This ain’t a situation like Madmole where Natsu specifically overpowers a stated heat resist via getting hotter, it’s fire resistance as stated and shown multiple times. It isn’t some caveat for dragons where they can’t absorb/resist an element from any god,

once again, this is either you misremembering something or outright you lying about what's shown. Because Dragon Slayer Magic is outright stated to be incapable of absorbing fire from a God. The caveat is directly stated and brought up by Zancrow multiple times.

it’s a feat for gods being able to bypass the abilities of dragons because the quality of the god flames is superior to dragon flames.

And in your own words here, that's a caveat.


Dragon Slayer Magic isn't on the same level of God Slayer Magic, they work on a system of superiority hence why Slayer's can't resist, due to their form of Magic being the inferior of the two, which again is a weakness to Slayer Magic.

This is literally just like the Gonzui “caveat” argument because Tatsuki has a stronger soul than normal. Just because something is stronger than normal doesn’t mean what fails against them has a caveat.

No, no no no, not in the slightest, the subject of Reiatsu Crush and Soul Manipulation cannot be likened to the scenario here. Reiatsu Crush for one, works on a completely different set of fundamental principles, has much more supportive evidence and revolves around a different ability.

The same goes here when Zancrow says that Natsu can’t resist or eat the fire because god flames > dragon flames. Man literally said that his power is on a different level than Natsu with Natsu being relative in AP. This means the level refers to the quality of his flames much like he has been explaining.

First things first, Zancrow and Natsu aren't relative in AP. Zancrow ate everything Natsu threw at him, even despite Natsu getting a rage amp and every time he attacked Natsu, he did significantly more damage than Natsu did. Keyword "power.", again the forms of Magic work on a system of superiority to one another. Devil Slayer Magic is inherently worse than God Slayer Magic, this isn't a feat of negation since there's a system of superiority taken into effect here, this isn't Zancrow vs random Resistance and bypassing it, he's bypassing it because his form of Magic is superior to Dragon Slayer Magic.

And are you actually arguing AP has nothing to do with resisting a fire attack? I guess Natsu resists Tier 3 fire now. Upgrade time bois

In your wet dreams, but you'd probably like that a lot wouldn't you? AP has absolutely nothing to do with resisting an attack, having high durability doesn't save you from getting burnt, just from having bones and such vaporized. A 8-C can get hit by a blast of fire calculating in 50000+ degrees, it won't kill him but it will severely burn and melt flesh. Do I really need to tell you the difference between heat energy and kinetic energy? Some of the softest metal on earth deal with heat excellently while some of the strongest metals are crap at dealing with heat. Higher durability has never been able to let you deal with heat just because, never has and never will. There was literally an enitre CRT about this in particular months ago.

Gin ...... what you are arguing rn is legitimately stupid. If a dragon can absorb X and then a god comes in with X where it’s quality is too much to be absorbed by the former, that means it resists being absorbed. This isn’t hard to comprehend. This hierarchy BS you keep bringing up doesn’t matter when the fire is still doing what Zack said it does. None of what you said discredits the fact that the fire of Gods is harder to absorb, especially when we see it right there on panel and is a major aspect of the fight.

All of what I'm arguing is logical here, there is no "Resistance negation or absorption Resistance." at play here, all that's at play is a system of Hierarchy where one fails to properly resist for a weakness.

Oh look at you talking about major aspects of the fight despite the ******* hierarchy system being blatant existent. It doesn't matter if Drgaons can't absorb X, that doesn't make God Slaying Magic resistant to Absorption, Dragons Slayers are incapable of absorbing this magic due to being both weaker and the inferior form of Magic.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa @Everything12 @Schnee_One @Dragonmasterxyz

Can you please help here and give input?

 

[Zackra1799]

I just remembered something regarding the God Slayer stuff, Zancrow isn't a reliable source of info like at all. He has never met a God or Dragon before given he was trained by Hades, this means he has no way of knowing about a Tiered system between Gods and Dragons. Hades himself didn't even know who Acnologia was Despite his vast knowledge of magic. So there's no reason to take anything Zancrow says as factual information. We even see Natsu one shot a God in the Avatar Arc with a fraction of Igneels remaining strength so clearly Gods aren't above Dragons.

 

[Everything12]

I'm leaning towards agreeing with LordGinSama and King Tempest here. I understand the reasoning behind what's being proposed, but I think the counter-arguments make sense.

 

[LordGinSama]

I just remembered something regarding the God Slayer stuff, Zancrow isn't a reliable source of info like at all. He has never met a God

That's not confirmation that Zancrow has never meet a god before, even with this we're shown that his words are real, given Natsu's performance against Zancrow's Magic and Zancrow overpowering Natsu various times.

or Dragon before given he was trained by Hades, this means he has no way of knowing about a Tiered system between Gods and Dragons. Hades himself didn't even know who Acnologia was Despite his vast knowledge of magic. So there's no reason to take anything Zancrow says as factual information. We even see Natsu one shot a God in the Avatar Arc with a fraction of Igneels remaining strength so clearly Gods aren't above Dragons.

It's shown that even without his words, God Slayer Magic is >>> Dragon Slayer Magic. There's no reason to not take his words seriously despite him showcasing the system of order, especially whenever the system is again shown in the Wendy fight. God Slayer Magic is a rank above Dragon Slayer Magic.



Also, the adaptation part should be limited, copying the powers of others is Power Mimicry, not adaptation. The Dual Element Slayer's aren't really adapting to anything, it's just them well eating a random magic. Adaptation would be what Natsu did to consume Zancrow's fire.

 

[Zackra1799]

That's not confirmation that Zancrow has never meet a god before, even with this we're shown that his words are real, given Natsu's performance against Zancrow's Magic and Zancrow overpowering Natsu various times.

This is compete head canon, nothing supports that he has met a god in the series and if there is evidence of this I would certainty like to know. Zancrow somewhat considers Hades to be a god, does that mean God slaying Magic works on him now, of course not. Overpowering a character is not indicative of a hierarchal system, that's just called being stronger plain and simple.

It's shown that even without his words, God Slayer Magic is >>> Dragon Slayer Magic. There's no reason to not take his words seriously despite him showcasing the system of order, especially whenever the system is again shown in the Wendy fight. God Slayer Magic is a rank above Dragon Slayer Magic.

Chapati's statement is completely baseless, not only is he a nonmage and has little if any knowledge about magic. His statement is purely speculative as it was phrased as a question. He even gets the type of magic wrong in that exact same statement as he was corrected by Yagima, this is literally the Levy argument but with even less evidence and source reliability.

Also, the adaptation part should be limited, copying the powers of others is Power Mimicry, not adaptation. The Dual Element Slayer's aren't really adapting to anything, it's just them well eating a random magic. Adaptation would be what Natsu did to consume Zancrow's fire.

developing the ability to absorb different elements that they aren't usually able to is adaptation, there isn't a need for limited here.

 

[LordGinSama]

This is compete head canon, nothing supports that he has met a god in the series and if there is evidence of this I would certainty like to know. Zancrow somewhat considers Hades to be a god, does that mean God slaying Magic works on him now, of course not. Overpowering a character is not indicative of a hierarchal system, that's just called being stronger plain and simple.

i never said that he meet a God before so the first half of this argument is irrelevant, what i said was there's no proof that he hasn't and this doesn't support your argument anyway.

Overpowering a character is a feat of AP, but whenever we have a blatant system of Supremacy that's what we would attribute it to, we're given various statements that heavily emphasize that God Slayer Magic is inherently superior to Dragon Slaying Magic. You can't simply ignore the several statements we're given in the manga and then use that as a piece of supportive evidence.

Chapati's statement is completely baseless, not only is he a nonmage and has little if any knowledge about magic. His statement is purely speculative as it was phrased as a question. He even gets the type of magic wrong in that exact same statement as he was corrected by Yagima, this is literally the Levy argument but with even less evidence and source reliability.

The character doesn't matter here, it was mainly to prove consistency for God Slayer Magic being >>> Dragon Slayer Magic. This particular statement is supported by direct statements from a prior arc, it's once again the same exact statement that Zancrow gives us, making the two of them consistent with one another.

This is extremely different than the Levy situation, there are no pirior statements on Slayer's being able to destroy souls, Zancrow on the other hand has stated multiple times that God Slayer Magic is >> Dragon Slayer Magic, and we're given the same statement again, making it a legitimate piece of material given that it's consistent with previous statements from Zancrow himself, aren't contradicted and we're even shown the clear difference between the two in the Manga.

developing the ability to absorb different elements that they aren't usually able to is adaptation, there isn't a need for limited here.

They aren't developing the ability to absorb other forms of Magic, Gajeel literally just ate Rougue's Shadow randomly and gained it's abilities, Natsu emptying his Magic reveres to utilize Zancrow's Magic is a proper example of Adaptation, since that's the only way he could. Slayer's can consume different elements without doing what Natsu did, as seen with Gajeel eating rougue's Shadow and Natsu consuming Etherion, both times neither character had to empty their Magic reverses or adapt to the element they consumed


and yes, the limited is indded needed. Otherwise that's being blatantly misleading. I.E they can't adapt to underwater breathing, withstand different Atmospheric pressure's and so on and so forth. For refence, characters who can do what i just listed above only get a limited / minor since their usage of the ability is limited in the way it can be applied.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

So far, it looks like I'm in the same boat as Damage; I think LordGinSama and KingTempest are making sense here.

 

[Zencha9]

same i think Gin and Tempest make more sense

 

[LordGinSama]

Alright so here are the changes, i really don't have the time to argue here so, given that various users and staff agree with me the changes should be fine to apply.

* Limited Adaptation (Slayer's burn all their Magic, allowing for them to adapt to absorb new elements that they shouldn't be able to.)

* Adding to Slayer Absorption and Power Mimicry (Slayer's can consume different elements, granting them manipulation over the element they've consumed.)

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Wait ...... how do you say two statements make it reliable but multiple statements and feats don't? The hypocrisy is unreal.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Bump

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I still agree with Zackra here, God Slayers can negate resistances to elements

 

[LordGinSama]

I've already given my input and I disagree with that entirely.