Sinbad Vs Kaido

[Rez]

Unless you can prove that Sinbad can't mind hax people with strong willpower with a scan don't bring it up. Also you will need to make a crt first for that

 

[PrinceofPein]

below a WB that couldn't predict an attack from Squardo

This is a lie actually Marco said he only chose not to dodge

 

[SnookB]

This is a lie actually Marco said he only chose not to dodge

Oh, damn. Is it?

 

[SnookB]

Is it, really?

Now that I look at it, it's the OPPOSITE that's implied. Marco says WB would've dodged it REGARDLESS of it being someone he trusted.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

It isn't ENTIRELY, though. Luffy's first taste of baseline Kenbunshoku was literally foreseeing his arms getting cut off. That isn't "prediction", that's full on precognition. (even if for an instant)

I remember something about that not being kenbunshoku but I am not sure. Though that still falls under prediction. If it was actual precognition then it'd contradict the "katakuri trained his haki so much he can see in the future!" line.

 

[SnookB]

That's not how hax is treated here unless the said hax has specifically show a certain weakness it will work on anyone without a resistance. Also how is kaido's will gonna stop him from hearing?

Since when did those half-fallen come into the Zepar conversation? Alibaba was only seen infected with black Rukh after his grudge against Hakuuryu, but that didn't last. He was never HALF fallen, he was about to start falling into depravity but didn't hold a grudge. Context matters.

I can't prove the scream gets resisted, and you can't prove it works on those who aren't either fodder or mentally vulnerable. Even with the assumption that Zepar enters Kaido's mind, it's a non-combat centric Djinn, and Kaido continues sensing the danger. Sinbad will be forced to use his stronger Djinns to output enough offense to take Kaido down, and Kaido is then released (assuming he even falls for it to begin with)

You could argue Alibaba didn't get KO'd because he covered his ears when the scream started (and we see that on panel). If that's the case- >Kaido's precognition foresees the scream and he covers his ears.
Regardless, Zepar's mind hax aren't a way to win. BEST CASE scenario, and this is a reach, he uses it to make Kaido not fight so he can catch his breath. Otherwise he can't beat Kaido via Zepar's lacking offense.

 

[Rez]

I can't prove the scream gets resisted, and you can't prove it works on those who aren't either fodder or mentally vulnerable.

I don't need to Sinbad doesn't have a weakness like that on his profile so unless you can prove your point and make a crt for it. It will work

 

[OriginFox]

I never said strength. I said mind defenses.
Kaido's senses are at least on old WB's if not better, and the latter can senses danger (and react to it) while in deep sleep. There is no way to know HOW Zepar was implanted in Kougyoku, but if it was during the scream attack, then that shouldn't work on Kaido.
The scream is a radius thing, and according to Sinbad it has effect on "EVERYONE AROUND" him. Everyone there who was KO'd with the exception of the target, was fodder. Base Alibaba flinched, but he was conscious after it.
If the assumption is Zepar's scream>implants Zepar if the target is KO'd
Then Zepar's mind hax wouldn't work on Kaido.

Just wnat to clear this up, Sinbad told Alibaba and the others to cover their ears so that's why Alibaba wasn't affected

 

[SnookB]

I remember something about that not being kenbunshoku but I am not sure. Though that still falls under prediction. If it was actual precognition then it'd contradict the "katakuri trained his haki so much he can see in the future!" line.

The line is "He can see a bit into the future". Meaning the impressive thing about it is that he can see more than just one thing, but a bit ahead. Similiar to how Luffy now can see several events take place with it. Baseline Kenbunshoku precognition only sees the next attack/dangerous thing, not several things ahead.
Katakuri's stands out because he doesn't rely on empathy or mind reading like others, he flat out sees "What the current course of events will lead to", in a sense.

 

[SnookB]

Just wnat to clear this up, Sinbad told Alibaba and the others to cover their ears so that's why Alibaba wasn't affected

If that's the case, then Kenbunshoku sees the scream ahead of time and Kaido does that.

Which is weird because the others that covered their ears were KO'd, and Alibaba got really shaken by it. But if all it takes is covering your ears, then it shouldn't even be a threat to Kaido. By the time Zepar screams, reverts to Sinbad, goes to a stronger form, Kaido would already be in his face.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

The line is "He can see a bit into the future". Meaning the impressive thing about it is that he can see more than just one thing, but a bit ahead. Similiar to how Luffy now can see several events take place with it. Baseline Kenbunshoku precognition only sees the next attack/dangerous thing, not several things ahead.
Katakuri's stands out because he doesn't rely on empathy or mind reading like others, he flat out sees "What the current course of events will lead to", in a sense.

Yeah relying on empathy and mind reading is analytical prediction not precognition. And they never say it's because he can see multiple events, they just say he can see slightly into the future, this means he's flat out clairvoyant and not the head canon stuff that is "he can see more events". That was never even stated.

 

[Rez]

If that's the case, then Kenbunshoku sees the scream ahead of time and Kaido does that.

Which is weird because the others that covered their ears were KO'd, and Alibaba got really shaken by it. But if all it takes is covering your ears, then it shouldn't even be a threat to Kaido. By the time Zepar screams, reverts to Sinbad, goes to a stronger form, Kaido would already be in his face.

Future sight won't work on Sinbad and analytical prediction is not telling kaido of the effects of scream all he will know is Sinbad is about to scream

 

[OriginFox]

If that's the case, then Kenbunshoku sees the scream ahead of time and Kaido does that.

Which is weird because the others that covered their ears were KO'd, and Alibaba got really shaken by it. But if all it takes is covering your ears, then it shouldn't even be a threat to Kaido. By the time Zepar screams, reverts to Sinbad, goes to a stronger form, Kaido would already be in his face.

Okay I actually have things to cleae up here. Sinbad is indeed a king vessel as pointed by Yunnan when he was younger so he has a vast amount of magoi. You also seem to be wanking Kenbunshoku a little, how would Kaido know the affects of the scream and how to defend it? Also, I'm pretty sure mind based hax are determined by how many people it can affect so in the case of Sinbad he was able to affect his entire kingdom.

False, Kaido would be stopped mid air like with what happened to Kougyoku. Sinbad and Kaiso are also similar in terms of speed so Kaido getting the drop on Sinbad is unlikely. Also, I doubt Kaido would actually be able to sense Sinbad at all since Sinbad is half-fallen meaning his rukh is black and not white like normal and the rukh is literally everything like fate, soul, mind, etc.

 

[SnookB]

Yeah relying on empathy and mind reading is analytical prediction not precognition. And they never say it's because he can see multiple events, they just say he can see slightly into the future, this means he's flat out clairvoyant and not the head canon stuff that is "he can see more events". That was never even stated.

How is it headcanon when Luffy/Zoro, and the usual kenbunshoku always was the character seeing the next attack, while Katakuri and post-udon Luffy can see several things at a time? The difference is literally obvious. >Foreseeing multiple occurences seconds prior>>>> Foreseeing one at a time a split-second before. That's literally the entire reason of showing Luffy flexing it with Hyougoro, telling him multiple things will occur seconds ahead of time.
How is FORESIGHT through empathy "prediction" when it's on the nose???? Luffy literally foresees Katakuri's sillhouette doing exactly what Katakuri proceeded to do. It wasn't prediction.

Katakuri foresees Pudding falling to the ground. He doesn't "predict" it, otherwise he wouldn't be wondering WHY she's falling.

 

[SnookB]

Okay I actually have things to cleae up here. Sinbad is indeed a king vessel as pointed by Yunnan when he was younger so he has a vast amount of magoi. You also seem to be wanking Kenbunshoku a little, how would Kaido know the affects of the scream and how to defend it? Also, I'm pretty sure mind based hax are determined by how many people it can affect so in the case of Sinbad he was able to affect his entire kingdom.

False, Kaido would be stopped mid air like with what happened to Kougyoku. Sinbad and Kaiso are also similar in terms of speed so Kaido getting the drop on Sinbad is unlikely. Also, I doubt Kaido would actually be able to sense Sinbad at all since Sinbad is half-fallen meaning his rukh is black and not white like normal and the rukh is literally everything like fate, soul, mind, etc.

I'll admit I confused Kaido's Kenbunshoku for Katakuri's/Luffy's for a second while clarifying why the latters' isn't prediction.

Welp, if all it takes is a no limits fallacy Zepar screech then it's a stomp, isn't it?
No reason to vote when it's this ridiculously one sided.

 

[OriginFox]

I'll admit I confused Kaido's Kenbunshoku for Katakuri's/Luffy's for a second while clarifying why the latters' isn't prediction.

Welp, if all it takes is a no limits fallacy Zepar screech then it's a stomp, isn't it?
No reason to vote when it's this ridiculously one sided.

How is Zepars scream a nlf? and how is it one sides when Sinbad's go to is Baal so Kaido should still have a decent chance of K.O.ing Sinbad before he can use his other dijins

 

[Rez]

Welp, if all it takes is a no limits fallacy Zepar screech then it's a stomp, isn't it?
No reason to vote when it's this ridiculously one sided.

It's not nfl that's just how hax works. You saying kaido can somehow resist mind hax with senses is nfl

 

[OriginFox]

It's not nfl that's just how hax works. You saying kaido can somehow resist mind hax with senses is nfl

Kaido in the national football league

 

[SnookB]

How is Zepars scream a nlf? and how is it one sides when Sinbad's go to is Baal so Kaido should still have a decent chance of K.O.ing Sinbad before he can use his other dijins

That's what I said. Zepar works, and Sinbad will need to use other Djinns anyway to damage Kaido. But the argument "he can't resist mind hax" keeps getting brought up so I'll just assume it works however they're imagining it.

It's not nfl that's just how hax works. You saying kaido can somehow resist mind hax with senses is nfl

I didn't say he can resist it via Kenbunshoku, but react to it. Like I said that was confusion on my part with Luffy/Kat's Kenbunshoku. I said he can still sense Sinbad beyond it because we've seen Luffy react to the outside world while still under Mont D'or's Book Illusions, WB sense Ace while asleep.

Either it's a hax stomp, or the hax is literally pointless because it isn't like he can get damaged by it and Sin would still need to resort to his stronger Djinns and turn it into an actual fight.

 

[SnookB]

Even after the end of Magi I still have no idea what the rest of the Djinns do-
Valefor controls water mollecules. Zepar uses sound. Baal's lightning, and Focalor is wind. The rest were always vague with Furfur being the exception since that ability is just a sword shower.

Anyway. Either Sinbad Zepar screams Kaido into unconsciousness, or not? Also why assume Zepar's scream will KO Kaido entirely and he won't wake up the second Sinbad switches equips to finish him off, via danger sense, similiar to WB?

Curse you One Piece characters for being all physical

 

[TauanVictor]

I will be voting for Kaido because of his Kenbunshoku Haki and the 5x AP gap, which Kaido can still increase using Busoshoku Haki and Haoshoku Haki.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Is it, really?

Now that I look at it, it's the OPPOSITE that's implied. Marco says WB would've dodged it REGARDLESS of it being someone he trusted.

Yes like I said he chose not to dodge

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

How is it headcanon when Luffy/Zoro, and the usual kenbunshoku always was the character seeing the next attack, while Katakuri and post-udon Luffy can see several things at a time? The difference is literally obvious. >Foreseeing multiple occurences seconds prior>>>> Foreseeing one at a time a split-second before. That's literally the entire reason of showing Luffy flexing it with Hyougoro, telling him multiple things will occur seconds ahead of time.
How is FORESIGHT through empathy "prediction" when it's on the nose???? Luffy literally foresees Katakuri's sillhouette doing exactly what Katakuri proceeded to do. It wasn't prediction.

Katakuri foresees Pudding falling to the ground. He doesn't "predict" it, otherwise he wouldn't be wondering WHY she's falling.

What I'm arguing is that katakuri and luffy's haki is actual precognition, but every other kenbunshoku is just prediction because they do not see the future, only katakuri is stated to have that ability. The foreseeing multiple things is just headcanon, they don't say he can do that, they just say he can see the future, which would contradict regular kenbunshoku being precognition too.

 

[Rez]

I didn't say he can resist it via Kenbunshoku, but react to it. Like I said that was confusion on my part with Luffy/Kat's Kenbunshoku. I said he can still sense Sinbad beyond it because we've seen Luffy react to the outside world while still under Mont D'or's Book Illusions, WB sense Ace while asleep.

Either it's a hax stomp, or the hax is literally pointless because it isn't like he can get damaged by it and Sin would still need to resort to his stronger Djinns and turn it into an actual fight.

Incap is an wincon so the hax is not useless and no sensing illusions does not tell you about the effects of an attack you have never seen that's future sight territory

 

[Rez]

I will be voting for Kaido because of his Kenbunshoku Haki and the 5x AP gap, which Kaido can still increase using Busoshoku Haki and Haoshoku Haki.

Sinbad has precog to counter observation haki's analytical prediction and mind hax which kaido doesn't resist

 

[SnookB]

Yes like I said he chose not to dodge

He didn't choose not to-- what the hell are you READING? Marco said he would've dodged REGARDLESS but his condition worsened to the point where he can't. It's right there. In english.

Incap is an wincon so the hax is not useless and no sensing illusions does not tell you about the effects of an attack you have never seen that's future sight territory

In that case, Sinbad wins via mind hax incap. It can't be that complicated- Kaido can pretty much handle everything in Sinbad's arsenal but Zepar's mind hax.

 

[SnookB]

What I'm arguing is that katakuri and luffy's haki is actual precognition, but every other kenbunshoku is just prediction because they do not see the future, only katakuri is stated to have that ability. The foreseeing multiple things is just headcanon, they don't say he can do that, they just say he can see the future, which would contradict regular kenbunshoku being precognition too.

Sensing danger and reacting to it is considered "precognition" on this site, otherwise Spider Sense would count as analytical prediction as well. They aren't predicting dozens of what ifs, they're sensing the direct danger and reacting. That's a form of precognition by the wiki's standards.

 

[Rez]

In that case, Sinbad wins via mind hax incap. It can't be that complicated- Kaido can pretty much handle everything in Sinbad's arsenal but Zepar's mind hax.

He can't handle his Divine Protection as well but since it technically qualifies as outside help (at least I think it does) idk if it can be considered a factor here

 

[SnookB]

What I'm arguing is that katakuri and luffy's haki is actual precognition, but every other kenbunshoku is just prediction because they do not see the future, only katakuri is stated to have that ability. The foreseeing multiple things is just headcanon, they don't say he can do that, they just say he can see the future, which would contradict regular kenbunshoku being precognition too.

The vs wiki page says: "
Rudimentary Haki Users: Haki users in this class are capable of actively using the ability with little issue. They can actively sense the presence and aura of others within their close proximity (typically up to a few hundred meters), infrequently have premonitions of the very brief future, and even sense the feelings and intentions of targeted individuals."
Make a CRT if you disagree. I'm just saying what's being accepted for Kenbunshoku. "Premonitions of a very brief future" is not analytical prediction.

 

[SnookB]

He can't handle his Divine Protection as well but since it technically qualifies as outside help (at least I think it does) idk if it can be considered a factor here

I know, but it says no intervention from the gods on the original post.

 

[Nierre]

The only reason why Sinbad never used his mind hax outside of kogyoku was because he's had no one to use it against. he never really gets a proper 1v1 until he fights alibaba in the manga.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Sensing danger and reacting to it is considered "precognition" on this site, otherwise Spider Sense would count as analytical prediction as well. They aren't predicting dozens of what ifs, they're sensing the direct danger and reacting. That's a form of precognition by the wiki's standards.

That shouldn't be precognition at all. It should be ESP.

The vs wiki page says: "
Rudimentary Haki Users: Haki users in this class are capable of actively using the ability with little issue. They can actively sense the presence and aura of others within their close proximity (typically up to a few hundred meters), infrequently have premonitions of the very brief future, and even sense the feelings and intentions of targeted individuals."
Make a CRT if you disagree. I'm just saying what's being accepted for Kenbunshoku. "Premonitions of a very brief future" is not analytical prediction.

I am aware. That's why I said it "should" be analytical prediction.

 

[SnookB]

Sinbad's wincons are basically: Zepar incap. Extreme Magic use. (The only way he can go beyond Kaido's dura value in the first place)
Drawbacks: Needs to switch out of a vessel and into the next. Needs to switch to Baal for Extreme Magic.

So unless he uses Zepar to incap Kaido, Kaido's wasting him. If he doesn't START with Zepar (which would be out of character for him to if he wants to fight) then he'd recognize Kaido's too durable to beat by regular means and try to switch to Zepar, which'd take way too long.

It's too situational. Staying neutral atm

 

[Nierre]

which'd take way too long.

No it wouldn't. These guys are literally FTL. Let's not also ignore the fact that Kaido let Luffy turn Gear 4 and didn't interrupt nor do anything in round 1.

 

[SnookB]

No it wouldn't. These guys are literally FTL. Let's not also ignore the fact that Kaido let Luffy turn Gear 4 and didn't interrupt nor do anything in round 1.

Because he knew Luffy isn't worth anything. When Luffy became strong enough to fight Kaido, he was actively avoiding his attacks and blasting him even when he wasn't entirely ready.

When they're both that fast, wasting those moments to chant the summon IS considered a waste of time. Would Kaido be dumb enough to let someone he considers worthy transform? DUNNO. He could, or he could swing on him anyway, because he knows Luffy has G4 and still went at him while he was in base.

Again- far too situational. Some of these fights should start having "bloodlusted" because character personalities are a pain in the ass-

 

[Nierre]

Would Kaido be dumb enough to let someone he considers worthy transform?

I mean with 5x the AP gap I wonder if he'd be considered worthy. Or even a real threat realistically lol. Starting with Focalor or Baal wouldn't threaten Kaido in the slightest, just cause of that massive AP gap lol. Then if he goes into Zepar THEN he'd be a real threat, but by the time Kaido actually realizes it, he'd be too late

 

[PrinceofPein]

He didn't choose not to-- what the hell are you READING? Marco said he would've dodged REGARDLESS but his condition worsened to the point where he can't. It's right there. In english.

You are loosing sight of the original argument, you said wb could not see squard with his obv haki and I said that’s not the case he could see but just did not dodge it due to reasons that well he will take any attack coming head on

 

[Kachon123]

Kaido's obs haki doesn't scale to WB's obs haki. Unless there are statements explicitly stating so, then they don't. Just like how Kaido doesn't have future sight just because Katakuri has it.

 

[SnookB]

You are loosing sight of the original argument, you said wb could not see squard with his obv haki and I said that’s not the case he could see but just did not dodge it due to reasons that well he will take any attack coming head on

And you said him being "unable" to dodge is a lie, when the lie is Marco saying "he didn't want to".

Kaido's obs haki doesn't scale to WB's obs haki. Unless there are statements explicitly stating so, then they don't. Just like how Kaido doesn't have future sight just because Katakuri has it.

Didn't say it was. I just said if it's anything beyond baseline then it's better than WB's. Or at least far less inconsistent.

 

[SnookB]

This is a lie actually Marco said he only chose not to dodge

Let me refer you back to your own words. "Marco said he CHOSE NOT TO DODGE", when the context suggests he just couldn't. Flat out. Was UNABLE to. This is the guy who has good enough Kenbunshoku to detect Ace's threat while asleep.

I mean with 5x the AP gap I wonder if he'd be considered worthy. Or even a real threat realistically lol. Starting with Focalor or Baal wouldn't threaten Kaido in the slightest, just cause of that massive AP gap lol. Then if he goes into Zepar THEN he'd be a real threat, but by the time Kaido actually realizes it, he'd be too late

So it's either> Kaido one shots
Or > Sinbad one shots

In character, Kaido likely one taps. Conditionally, Sinbad just knows Kaido can do it and incaps with Zepar. Neither get my vote- too complicated >>