Mario fodder Speed and LS changes + some small profile revisions

[koopa3144]

1. Lifting Strength
So, this one's pretty simple. Most minion profiles have average Human LS, which contradicts the Goomba profile which has sourced peak human LS. The peak human LS feat could really be Superhuman due to those Goombas were larger than Mario and 29 times their body weight is would probably be superhuman LS. There are some other LS feats too such as a Goomba kicking a metal roulette ball (6:56). Paper Shy Guys rolling up some land.

2. Speed
On the side of speed, I propose that fodder be upgraded to Superhuman likely Massively FTL+. Some things supporting this are: fodder can keep up with main cast in every sports game they appear in, Boos have been shown on several occasions to be capable of racing against Mario, and they're rarely if ever blitzed and keep up in most appearances. Also Koopa Troopa, Dry Bones, Spike, Chain Chomp, and Kamek need Zone Speed added to their profiles.

3. Small profile revisions
Spike: old profile. New profile (I added a quote added Can Create/Summon))
Chain chomp: old profile new profile (added quote and changed picture)

Agree: @Foxthefox1000 @DarkDragonMedeus @LephyrTheRevanchist @AStrangeverse
Disagree:
neutral:

 

[Lou_change]

Boos speed should be fine I am am almost certain we can find a speed feat LS is almost certainly wrong those guys are larger than Mario 29 times their body weight is almost certainly superhuman.
Spike should probably have earthquake manipulation but stone spikes are a subspecies also clubbas chain chomps still don’t have the can summon/create thing

 

[koopa3144]

Boos speed should be fine I am am almost certain we can find a speed feat LS is almost certainly wrong those guys are larger than Mario 29 times their body weight is almost certainly superhuman.
Spike should probably have earthquake manipulation but stone spikes are a subspecies also clubbas chain chomps still don’t have the can summon/create thing

I added the likely Superhuman LS to the OP and I'll add those changes to the profiles tomorrow.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

You can use this for LS for Spikes. Some of them spit out the spiked balls they create, so they need to have weapon creation. Why are they comparable to Koopa? Why are chain chomps only building level? In Super Mario 64, Mario requires help from them to break these bars, so they should be 3-C. Here's a chain chomp taking hits from Mario's fireballs. Here's a chain chomp just being immune to fireballs. Also, Chain chomps can fly in Super Mario 64. Here's how it looks like, its only limited flight

 

[koopa3144]

You can use this for LS for Spikes. Some of them spit out the spiked balls they create, so they need to have weapon creation.

I'll add this alll to spikes new profile blog.

Why are they comparable to Koopa?

Spikes are a subspecies of Koopa.

In Super Mario 64, Mario requires help from them to break these bars, so they should be 3-C. Here's a chain chomp taking hits from Mario's fireballs. Here's a chain chomp just being immune to fireballs.

I'll add theses reasons to OP and see what others think.

Also, Chain chomps can fly in Super Mario 64. Here's how it looks like, its only limited flight

To me this just looks like Chain chomps just have a really high jump which would be acrobatics.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Spikes are a subspecies of Koopa.

They're not

 

[koopa3144]

They're not

On the Mario wiki it listed them as variants of koopas.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

On the Mario wiki it listed them as variants of koopas.

They just put it there because Spikes have a shell, they're not like Koopas at all

 

[Lou_change]

They just put it there because Spikes have a shell, they're not like Koopas at all

Why

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

In Super Mario 64, Mario requires help from them to break these bars, so they should be 3-C.

We are not using game mechanics to upgrade fodder enemies to 3-C

Anyway, the rest looks alright.

 

[Imaginym]

I wonder if that that roulette ball shoving feat for a Goomba is relevant for LS.
Also, what LS do Shy Guy's get put at? I recall some subspecies of them being able to hold Chain Chomps, albeit, with difficulty, but maybe my memory is wrong.

 

[koopa3144]

Also, what LS do Shy Guy's get put at? I recall some subspecies of them being able to hold Chain Chomps, albeit, with difficulty, but maybe my memory is wrong.

Yeah those are Walker Guys.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

We are not using game mechanics to upgrade fodder enemies to 3-C

Anyway, the rest looks alright.

That is not a game mechanic, you are required to do that to progress in the game

 

[Chariot190]

you are required to do that to progress in the game

Spoken like someone who didn't build up enough speed

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Spoken like someone who didn't build up enough speed

You need it for the power star

 

[koopa3144]

Bump

 

[koopa3144]

Bump

 

[Lou_change]

Outlier

You need it for the power star

yet Mario could break a post it could not

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Outlier

yet Mario could break a post it could not

Prove its an outlier and prove he can break a post a chain chomp can't

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's a game mechanic for Mario to be even incapable of breaking posts given the existence of feats that put him much higher. It's Dovahkin being unable to destroy doors that requiring solving puzzles to open or Kratos needing 5 hits to knock down a tree all over again. It's not even an impressive feat for Chain Chomp in the first place.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

It's a game mechanic for Mario to be even incapable of breaking posts given the existence of feats that put him much higher. It's Dovahkin being unable to destroy doors that requiring solving puzzles to open or Kratos needing 5 hits to knock down a tree all over again. It's not even an impressive feat for Chain Chomp in the first place.

Or maybe the posts are just durable? Prove they are game mechanics

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Prove that the posts are like adamantium like posts and not just some regular posts

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Prove that the posts are like adamantium like posts and not just some regular posts

It can survive stomps from Mario

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That's not evidence, that's just a speculative assumption and normally an anti-feat/GIS for various characters and not a feat for the object. If a piece of brick withstood Darkseid's Omega Beams would we assume that's a 4-B brick? No. It's just a PIS low end potrayal.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

That's not evidence, that's just a speculative assumption and normally an anti-feat/GIS for various characters and not a feat for the object. If a piece of brick withstood Darkseid's Omega Beams would we assume that's a 4-B brick? No. It's just a PIS low end potrayal.

If said omega beam was at full power, then yes, the brick would be 4-B. Why is it an anti-feat or PIS?

 

[Lou_change]

Prove its an outlier and prove he can break a post a chain chomp can't

He literally does to free it so it can destroy the bars

 

[XXKINGXX69]

He literally does to free it so it can destroy the bars

Maybe the chain chomp couldn't stomp on it to free itself

 

[Lou_change]

unless you can prove that the ground around the stake is harder the chain chomp should be able to drag the stake around with it’s lunges as if it can accidentally break the bars blocking the star. Logical it should be stronger then Mario’s ground pound which can not free the star. The ground pound is not LS as it is an attack meaning SS so the chain chomps lunges which is also SS should logically also effect the stake pulling it out or move the stake along with the chain chomp.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Also, Mario regularly curb stomps Chain Chomps in the RPG games, so Chomps normally wouldn't scale considering that.

If said omega beam was at full power, then yes, the brick would be 4-B. Why is it an anti-feat or PIS?

We have rules that mention standard assumptions, it is against the rules to assume just because a protagonist or antagonist reaches a certain tier or rated as such based on feats, we don't automatically assume every object in their surrounding has that level durability. It's for that reason there is going to be a strict rule for 95% of firearms and vehicles to scale from their own calcs instead of reverse powerscaling via loopholes within loopholes. But when someone fights seriously but causes little destruction, it's either the character is using Ki control and actively not trying to cause collateral damage, or is simply just not portrayed as being that strong in various scenes. Which means the existence of outliers or PIS is the real issue to tackle.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Also, Mario regularly curb stomps Chain Chomps in the RPG games, so Chomps normally wouldn't scale considering that.

We have rules that mention standard assumptions, it is against the rules to assume just because a protagonist or antagonist reaches a certain tier or rated as such based on feats, we don't automatically assume every object in their surrounding has that level durability. It's for that reason there is going to be a strict rule for 95% of firearms and vehicles to scale from their own calcs instead of reverse powerscaling via loopholes within loopholes. But when someone fights seriously but causes little destruction, it's either the character is using Ki control and actively not trying to cause collateral damage, or is simply just not portrayed as being that strong in various scenes. Which means the existence of outliers or PIS is the real issue to tackle.

Show me him "curb stomping" chain chomps and explain why chain chomps in the RPG games can't be a different power level from ones in other games

We have rules that mention standard assumptions, it is against the rules to assume just because a protagonist or antagonist reaches a certain tier or rated as such based on feats, we don't automatically assume every object in their surrounding has that level durability.

I never said that anyways

It's for that reason there is going to be a strict rule for 95% of firearms and vehicles to scale from their own calcs instead of reverse powerscaling via loopholes within loopholes.

A made up rule

But when someone fights seriously but causes little destruction, it's either the character is using Ki control and actively not trying to cause collateral damage, or is simply just not portrayed as being that strong in various scenes.

Ok, but Mario not destroying the post isn't a lack of collateral damage, its a durability feat for the post. Prove Mario is just not strong in that scene

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Show me him "curb stomping" chain chomps and explain why chain chomps in the RPG games can't be a different power level from ones in other games

Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars they're common enemies there, Paper Mario series, he regular stomps Stone Chomps, Red Chomps, ect. And various versions of Chain Chomps stronger than regular ones. There's no reason for fodder Chain Chomps to threaten him logically speaking.

I never said that anyways

You still implied that

A made up rule

I said one was being worked on, not that it was added. Anyway, I have gotten general universal agreements in every thread with said topic. Because way to often do I bring up the numerous different types of damage output or the concept of penetration or distinction between heat Vs Blunt Force Trauma Vs Electricity shocking ect. Hence the rule that plenty of shooters especially have all weapons only rated based on their own calcs. We don't pretend all weapons are on par with the weapon of the highest calc let alone assume energy is 100% linear. We don't loophole a weapon having a 9-A rating via human vaporization calculation, then fully scale it to a characters durability, then just say "9-A everything because pistols hurt the same guys".

Ok, but Mario not destroying the post isn't a lack of collateral damage, its a durability feat for the post. Prove Mario is just not strong in that scene

And this is headcanon. Also, if he isn't nuking the field let alone destroying the planet, it isn't impressive collateral. Also, do you not see the loophole? Mario smashes the pole, Chain Chomp can't do that, Chain Chomp breaks bars, Mario can't break bars? This is what I'm talking about when I say loophole and you're literally necroing some generally disagreed points among staff.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars they're common enemies there, Paper Mario series, he regular stomps Stone Chomps, Red Chomps, ect. And various versions of Chain Chomps stronger than regular ones. There's no reason for fodder Chain Chomps to threaten him logically speaking.

You still implied that

I said one was being worked on, not that it was added. Anyway, I have gotten general universal agreements in every thread with said topic. Because way to often do I bring up the numerous different types of damage output or the concept of penetration or distinction between heat Vs Blunt Force Trauma Vs Electricity shocking ect. Hence the rule that plenty of shooters especially have all weapons only rated based on their own calcs. We don't pretend all weapons are on par with the weapon of the highest calc let alone assume energy is 100% linear. We don't loophole a weapon having a 9-A rating via human vaporization calculation, then fully scale it to a characters durability, then just say "9-A everything because pistols hurt the same guys".

And this is headcanon. Also, if he isn't nuking the field let alone destroying the planet, it isn't impressive collateral. Also, do you not see the loophole? Mario smashes the pole, Chain Chomp can't do that, Chain Chomp breaks bars, Mario can't break bars? This is what I'm talking about when I say loophole and you're literally necroing some generally disagreed points among staff.

The Stone Chomp is literally stated to be a threat to Mario by Goombario

This is a Stone Chomp, who guards the treasure in this room. He's made of stone. Duh! Max HP: 4, Attack Power: 3, Defense Power: 1 His jaws can supposedly crush a Coconut. I don't know about you, but I don't want to become a snack.

The Red Chomp is considered too powerful for Mario to not beat it fast, so you just proved me right

That's a Red Chomp. It's a rabid, red, biting, chewing, chomping fool! Max HP is 6, Attack is 5, and Defense is 3. Its attacks are so powerful, we could be in a world of hurt if we don't beat it fast! …Which is why it's really, REALLY lame that its Defense is so high. Its HP is pretty low, though, so items and special moves might just work… Just look at that color! Think someone painted it after it fell asleep at a party?

I said one was being worked on, not that it was added. Anyway, I have gotten general universal agreements in every thread with said topic. Because way to often do I bring up the numerous different types of damage output or the concept of penetration or distinction between heat Vs Blunt Force Trauma Vs Electricity shocking ect. Hence the rule that plenty of shooters especially have all weapons only rated based on their own calcs. We don't pretend all weapons are on par with the weapon of the highest calc let alone assume energy is 100% linear. We don't loophole a weapon having a 9-A rating via human vaporization calculation, then fully scale it to a characters durability, then just say "9-A everything because pistols hurt the same guys".

This has nothing to do with firearms or piercing damage though

And this is headcanon. Also, if he isn't nuking the field let alone destroying the planet, it isn't impressive collateral.

I never disagreed that Mario's AP is the same as his destructive capacity

Mario smashes the pole, Chain Chomp can't do that

Maybe Chain Chomp just can't stomp on it because his jumping strength isn't that good?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Stone Chomp is literally stated to be a threat to Mario by Goombario

At early levels, but he can later become strong enough to the point of one-shotting them. And can stomp a bunch of them with his Earthquake attacks

The Red Chomp is considered too powerful for Mario to not beat it fast, so you just proved me right

They're talking from a gameplay perspective to the player, besides, Red Chomps are pushovers if you have Yoshi or Bobbery, or use Earth tremor. Attack amp badge stacking also makes quick work of these fodder. They're not on par with Bowser, Bonetail, Shadow Queen but Mario is.

This has nothing to do with firearms or piercing damage though

It still doesn't address other points, just because someone struggled to break a concrete wall doesn't mean we assume that it's a universe where all concrete has cosmic level durability. That's the definition of a loophole.

Maybe Chain Chomp just can't stomp on it because his jumping strength isn't that good?

Chain Chomps are clearly capable of jumping just fine, but you think they'd be strong enough to at least pull the pole out of the dirt? You think the dirt/soil has galaxy level durability too?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Anyway, updated pages, based on OP proposals. Also fixed grammar, converted systems to our newer ones since it was agreed to not use Class instead of level so it lines up with AP and Durability. Same with stamina ratings having Peak Human, Superhuman is what we use instead of High, Very High.

Stuff like upgrades to superhuman lifting strength and speed could be discussed. As was "Earth manipulation?".

 

[koopa3144]

A good supporting feat for superhuman LS is a Goomba kicking a metal roulette ball (6:56) as mentioned by @Imaginym.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

At early levels, but he can later become strong enough to the point of one-shotting them. And can stomp a bunch of them with his Earthquake attacks

They're talking from a gameplay perspective to the player, besides, Red Chomps are pushovers if you have Yoshi or Bobbery, or use Earth tremor. Attack amp badge stacking also makes quick work of these fodder. They're not on par with Bowser, Bonetail, Shadow Queen but Mario is.

It still doesn't address other points, just because someone struggled to break a concrete wall doesn't mean we assume that it's a universe where all concrete has cosmic level durability. That's the definition of a loophole.

Chain Chomps are clearly capable of jumping just fine, but you think they'd be strong enough to at least pull the pole out of the dirt? You think the dirt/soil has galaxy level durability too?

Him one shotting them requires assuming the damage numbers are canon. They still scale to Mario

"From a gameplay perspective" from a lore perspective too. You're also using game mechanics to say Yoshi and Bobbery can stomp them

It still doesn't address other points, just because someone struggled to break a concrete wall doesn't mean we assume that it's a universe where all concrete has cosmic level durability. That's the definition of a loophole.

I didn't say all wooden posts have high durability though

Chain Chomps are clearly capable of jumping just fine, but you think they'd be strong enough to at least pull the pole out of the dirt? You think the dirt/soil has galaxy level durability too?

Yes. Not that I agree with 3-C Mario 64, I just agree with the dirt scaling to Mario

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Him one shotting them requires assuming the damage numbers are canon. They still scale to Mario

"From a gameplay perspective" from a lore perspective too. You're also using game mechanics to say Yoshi and Bobbery can stomp them

They're still fodder enemies, not bosses. There exist boss chain chomps in the Mario verse that Mario can beat which means fodder chomps scaling is PIS. Also, you ignored how they're literally just fodder enemies in Legend of the Seven Stars and I'm sure Mario bros also stomp them in the M&L series.

I didn't say all wooden posts have high durability though

But the wooden posts in various other places are the same material as this one

Yes. Not that I agree with 3-C Mario 64, I just agree with the dirt scaling to Mario

I don't care if you agree with Mario's rating or not, but dirt cannot be that durable. That would mean it's a planet with far above X tier GBE lol.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Ignoring all the fluff above, their LS and speed should've been upgraded a while ago. There's way better feats than just superhuman

 

[koopa3144]

Bump

 

[koopa3144]

@Foxthefox1000 made some good points for speed in the Mario discussion thread

If we need a dedicated tier upgrade for speed there's been a few supersonic stuff like fodder keeping up with or outpacing the sound waves from the enemies in SPM who literally utilize sound as their attack. There's also plenty cannonball dodges and projectiles like arrows and the like I recall being able to be dodged.

And MFTL+ reactions for the fodder would be supported by Magikoopas blocking star bits in Galaxy as like an actual feat plus the fact they're rarely if ever blitzed and keep up in practically all their appearances.