Simple Boruto revision

[PrinceofPein]

Okay so I decided not to reply before as Naruto thread tends to be messy. anyway, this is my thoughts and I will be addressing the kaguya scaling to momoshiki part.

Well frankly No if anything momoshiki >>> kaguya

The naruto that fought kaguya is way weaker than the one that fought momoshiki
These are 16/17 compared to his older self in naruto retsuden years old naruto counterpart feats
1. He needed sosp mode to be even in the rel+ to FTL speed tier, while when he was sick, on life support unable to use chakra he can dodge light speed attack in retsuden that gives at least rel+
sick naruto <<< base naruto <<< kcm naruto <<< bsm naruto <<< sosp naruto
Do the math
2. Naruto also on life support and unable to use chakra could also head butt and destroy a meteor coming towards earth that needed a 200km long pillar of wood, earth, sand from gaara, kakashi, yamato and other ninjas to create. Well I dont know the size of the metoer but well try scaling it
Naruto on life support and unable to use chakra could head butt this metoer in space and destroy it.
3. And we also have multiple statements of naruto and the kages training for an otutsuki level threat.


So clearly I dont even support the notion that kaguya is stronger than fused momoshiki its weird, momoshiki fought a stronger version of naruto so yes he should scale above the naruto that fought kaguya.

 

[Reio35]

it was put in place because it was a outlier (no other argument held any proper reasoning at all)

ETSO is not even large star. The raw Japanese translations don't say space time. So as you can see the raw used this kanji" 空間". Which means space,room ect which can mean almost anything but it's best to assume it's just the planet. Otsuski constantly scale around planet level stated by isshiki and amado that they consume and destroy planets. So it makes no sense they would scale to star level. And in the databooks its stated ETSO was just gonna destroy the world.

The real kanji for space-time is this. Which kishi did not use

 

[PrinceofPein]

ETSO is not even large star. The raw Japanese translations don't say space time. So as you can see the raw used this kanji" 空間". Which means space,room ect which can mean almost anything but it's best to assume it's just the planet. Otsuski constantly scale around planet level stated by isshiki and amado that they consume and destroy planets. So it makes no sense they would scale to star level. And in the databooks its stated ETSO was just gonna destroy the world.

The real kanji for space-time is this. Which kishi did not use

Your argument is weird whether the kanji used was space or space-time, etsb was going to destroy a dimension with a moon, star and a planet, so yes still large star level and likely higher

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

You got this wrong boss, code without limiter is the one that scales to jigen (10% isshiki iirc) the actual isshiki>>>>>>>> code

And where is it said that Code, without limiters, only scales to 10% Isshiki?

 

[Reio35]

It doesn't need to be linear for her to scale to it. Naruto amped the shinobi alliance multiple times which is obviously more then taking a bit from them

It has no reason not to scale it creates dimensions.
Kaguya is shown to have one method of creating dimensions in the manga, has statements of those being her dimensions even after her "death" and in the databooks she has more statements of creating dimensions

Not anti feats at all the Kage have no anti feats and lore for them to fight Otsutsukis

Just covering what I was arguing

It does not say creating dimension as she pleases that's a fake translation
n Vn A2自由無碍に空間を紡ぐ開眼せし始祖の神通力 "る3んS2 nn o他

"n Vn A2 Spin the space freely and open your eyes. The mythical power of the founder "Ru 3 S2 nn o etc."

It's just talking about teleporting

 

[theultimate5105]

ETSO is not even large star. The raw Japanese translations don't say space time. So as you can see the raw used this kanji" 空間". Which means space,room ect which can mean almost anything but it's best to assume it's just the planet. Otsuski constantly scale around planet level stated by isshiki and amado that they consume and destroy planets. So it makes no sense they would scale to star level. And in the databooks its stated ETSO was just gonna destroy the world.

The real kanji for space-time is this. Which kishi did not use

Space so still the entire thing you debunked yourself in your own post

 

[PrinceofPein]

And where is it said that Code, without limiters, only scales to 10% Isshiki?

Jigen is 10% isshiki tho and Amado said jigen.

 

[Reio35]

Your argument is weird whether the kanji used was space or space-time, etsb was going to destroy a dimension with a moon, star and a planet, so yes still large star level and likely higher

It saids world in the databook and space is can mean a lot of things

 

[Reio35]

Space so still the entire thing you debunked yourself in your own post

What they mean by space is planet

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Jigen is 10% isshiki tho and Amado said jigen.

Are you confusing the 10% thing? When was it said that Jigen is only 10% of Isshiki's Power?

 

[theultimate5105]

What they mean by space is planet

Space doesn't mean planet it means space

 

[PrinceofPein]

Are you confusing the 10% thing? When was it said that Jigen is only 10% of Isshiki's Power?

Sorry I said iirc about the 10% stuff but it was stated and shown clearly that jigen is vastly inferior to the actual isshiki

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Sorry I said iirc about the 10% stuff but it was stated and shown clearly that jigen is vastly inferior to the actual isshiki

And? That's quite obvious given their display of power.

Code was stated to be above Delta and Jigen, Code was stated to possess Isshiki's Power but not his soul/consciousness, Code even mentions in the latest chapter that he could take Naruto and Sasuke on as he currently is but would rather want to have his limiters removed to save him the trouble.

 

[PrinceofPein]

And? That's quite obvious given their display of power.

Code was stated to be above Delta and Jigen, Code was stated to possess Isshiki's Power but not his soul/consciousness, Code even mentions in the latest chapter that he could take Naruto and Sasuke on as he currently is but would rather want to have his limiters removed to save him the trouble.

Well he said "probably" not that it matters

And yes he should be able to take them on, I mean jigen ragdolled both of them anyway

 

[Thazumaki]

You should all relate to my post in the first place, Kaguya has other celestial bodies in her dimensions, it isn't just "planetary" in size.

Also, there are feats and scales for both Kaguya and Momoshiki there..

 

[Reio35]

Nope otsuski are constantly planet level

 

[PrinceofPein]

Nope otsuski are constantly planet level

This is your own head canon tho

 

[Reio35]

This is your own head canon tho

Not head canon this is stated by amado and isshiki. That they just eat planets over long periods of time

 

[Avengershows]

Oh yeah I just wanted to mention something:
The databook scan translation more-so means "she links together worlds" due to the words used meaning "to link together with thread" (not too sure how to properly translate it into English), so imagine that 2 dimensions are pieces of cloth, and all she does is create a "link" between them so she can travel, aka the thread.
as for the Isshiki stuff. Code without the white karma was made to be stronger than Jigen, but due to recieving the full power of isshiki via the white karma scales to FP Isshiki + Jigen.

 

[joshpiece]

Can the Op summarize what they actually want to do

as for the Isshiki stuff. Code without the white karma was made to be stronger than Jigen, but due to recieving the full power of isshiki via the white karma scales to FP Isshiki + Jigen.

This is true. we should take Code's base with limiters =< Jigen. Code's base w/o limiters > Jigen. Code with white Karma gives Ishhiki sized Amp to his base power.

 

[Avengershows]

Can the Op summarize what they actually want to do

This is true. we should take Code's base with limiters =< Jigen. Code's base w/o limiters > Jigen. Code with white Karma gives Ishhiki sized Amp to his base power.

Yeah base Code without the Karma is the one that was > Jigen, Code with the karma just gets Isshiki stacked onto him

 

[PrinceofPein]

Not head canon this is stated by amado and isshiki. That they just eat planets over long periods of time

Okay how does this mean their max is planet level?

 

[The_Alxhemist]

Currently it is not accepted that Kaguya creates the dimensions she travels to.

Based on what reasons exactly? She could control the gravity of a planet there and the terrain while that could be argued to be some sort of environmental manipulation, it gets even clearer that it isn't the case when she wanted to create a new one after erasing it all with her ETSB

Momoshiki is accepted as weaker than Kaguya here. Kaguya ate the chakra fruit of the planet, we don't know how much life there was on that planet.

Unless you're trying to use filler content to support this then no she didn't. Her power mainly was from the Juubi which is a mere sed compared to the actual yet inadequate fruit Momoshiki ate. With Amado's info dump we're basically being told that Kaguya paraded herself as a goddess from the power of a mere seed

Just like Kaguya it is not accepted that Momoshiki created the dimensions. He just travels to them.

Boruto's karma is literally connected to it. How is this not even more proof with his anime statement that it was created by him.

We don't actually know why Kaguya was scared of Momoshiki, but given he just turned Kinshiki into a pill instantly, it could be that.

That's a huge reach. The fact is that by her own admission she was scared of him and Momoshiki even after he knew what went down on Earth via Urashiki wished he had the chance to punish her himself.

Even from feats alone, Kaguya shit stomps a teen Naruto and Sasuke (who this site accepts to at their prime, outside of Baryon)

This is the first time I'm hearing of this. What thread was this decided upon?

Meanwhile ... FUSED Momoshiki gets shit stomped by Adult Naruto and Sasuke.

This just shows Adult Naruto and Sasuke >>>>>>>> Kaguya by an insane amount. In no way is it an Anti feat for Momoshiki

Sasuke was hypothesizing that Momoshiki was stronger than Kaguya in those scenes. He hadn't fought Momoshiki yet. He only fought Kinshiki and rather casually at that.

Sasuke had an hypothesis with the Kages which he assumed it was about the duo he met at Kaguya's world and Kaguya's scroll basically confirmed their hypothesis was right.

 

[The_Alxhemist]

Kaguya herself isn’t Large Star level. Only her Expansive Truth-Seeking Orb (which doesn’t scale to her normal AP) is.

Which honestly needs to be revised upon again. IIRC We're told in Part 1 Naruto that chakra scales to stats to some degree at the very least but some reason we're not even considering it in the Õtsutsuki's case

 

[The_Alxhemist]

Yeah, that works. SPSM >>> BSM, and BSM Naruto wasn't even at full power or using the Kurama Avatar when he defeated Toneri, while Momoshiki was able to harm him through his SPSM Avatar.

The movie and novel of the movie had Naruto had KCSM. I'd post a screen shot if I could

 

[Reio35]

Code is probably not jigen level with his limiters

 

[PrinceofPein]

Code is probably not jigen level with his limiters

What is with you and saying obvious rubbish?

 

[Reio35]

What is with you and saying obvious rubbish?

Without his limiters yes but with them no. Amado litterly stated they put limiters on him so he wouldn't overpower jigen. And plot wise it would not make sense to make code that strong now that naruto and sasuke are weaker

 

[Avengershows]

Without his limiters yes but with them no. Amado litterly stated they put limiters on him so he wouldn't overpower jigen. And plot wise it would not make sense to make code that strong now that naruto and sasuke are weaker

??? Sir noone thinks that Code with limiters is stronger than Jigen. Like, we all know that he's not. Why are you stating the obvious?

 

[NotCensored]

Yep, likely referring to this translation:

The translation itself has been discussed here, though it is of note that the technique itself is about teleportation and has nothing to do with creating dimensions/worlds.


Sure, Naruto lives in a universe, don't think anybody disputed that. According to the data book, the Ten Tails is a fragment of the god tree that created the universe, so there are different theories for how the Naruto universe came to be.
But this does not mean that "Kaguya's world/dimension" or "Momoshiki's world/dimension" is refeering to a universe. The planets are the only part confirmed to be referred to as their world/dimension. There might be a star or a moon in the background, and for all we know the planets might exist within a universe, but this does mean that the star, moon, or entire universe is their dimension/world.


Feel free to make a scaling chain out of this then.


Ok.


Agree to disagree.


Historically, the kage has yet to scale to Momoshiki/Kinshiki.
Though I think the Boruto scaling should become more clear after the timeskip.

Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball is hax, not raw power.

Those who blossomed the Senjutsu of Six Paths wear these black orbs, encompassing the power of all five natures and Yin–Yang. Floating behind the user in the form of a circle, each of the orbs can be manipulated at will. Although each is the size of a fist, hidden inside those orbs is the power to easily obliterate an entire forest. By simply understanding the power of all things in creation, the black orbs can be freely altered in their shape and the multiple natures inside can be combined to reveal a variety of effects. This is a power that easily exceeds both Kekkei Genkai and Kekkei Touta!

They're stated to have a level of power to them capable of destroying areas much larger than themselves and considering its literally expanding to the size of the realm it would scale to its AP and this site still scales atomic level etc attacks to AP regardless

It does not imply that Kaguya can vacuum palm a star or a galaxy to destroy them,

This is why Attack Potency is a thing

or that her normal attacks contains the power of a universe.

No one claims they're as strong they claim they're relative to it

Furthermore, having a dimension is not relevant for scaling, especially since we don't know how these dimensions came to be.

Doesn't really matter as we know she can create and destroy the realm regardless it doesnt matter if she didnt initially make it

Momoshiki has anti-feats, such as running away from Gaara and Darui,and getting stalemated by them, and Gaara blocking his attacks both in base and Fused forms.

Why are those anti-feats? Gaara and Darui have no feats in the New Era aside from fighting Otsutsuki

The quality of Chakra Fruits differ, and not all Otstsuki are as powerful as each other.

Except we literally have statements from Sasuke that Kinshiki and Momoshiki are more powerful than Kaguya

For all we know, each fruit only slightly increased Momoshiki's power, so a multplier doesn't work.

I agree here

The parallel dimension line is so vague that it is unusable for scaling.

Its not very vague its pretty blatant he made a dimension that is parallel to Naruto's Universe

First of all, parallel doesn't mean same size.

Literally read any fiction to do with parallel universes or dimensions and they would disagree heavily with you

It just means separate but not intersecting. These are parallel lines:

Parallel lines and parallel dimensions/ realms/ worlds/ universes have different connotations attached to them, in the Naruto franchise its literally been used to describe a mirror copy reality in RTN which is written by Kishimoto btw (not saying its cannon just that the term is likely to be used in that context)

Furthermore, the term the novel uses is "Isekai", which can be translated to "parallel/alternative/different world"

We know it likely translates to parallel universe cause just before this statement Naruto was asking if the realm was a pocket Universe and the fact Naruto calls it a parallel dimension in the anime and the fact the term is used in that context most in sci-fi settings which Boruto most definitely qualifies for just grants more to that context and translation being correct

But since half of this is un usable until theres a discussion on the novels canonicity again I think its a little irrelevant

Not saying you have to agree with the scale but the parallel universe = not the same size argument is the rattiest argument I've ever seen ppl use

,and can refer to the planet itself just like Kaguya's 'lava world' or 'ice world' (Manga uses the term "Sekai").

Yes it can but just because I refer to a certain planet directly within a Universe doesn't mean the planet is the only thing that exists there

Kaguya, before she gained the power of the Ten Tails and possibly before eating a fruit, was cautious that stronger Ōtsutsuki would come after her, which Sasuke suspected from Kaguya creating an army. However this does not confirm that Momoshiki/Kinshiki themselves are stronger than Ten Tails Kaguya. Kaguya might be cautious that a veteran Ōtsutsuki who ate lots of fruits might grow to her level and challenge her,

But its literally stated by him that they are the ones and it name drops Momoshiki specifically this is just a whole lot of headcanon tbh

or she might be afraid that an Ōtsutsuki would use hax to steal her power since Momoshiki stated that it is tradition for the younger generation to absorb the power of the older one.

We dont know how that ability works we've only seen it used on a willing member who knew what was gonna happen

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

With the whole Momoshiki v. Kaguya issue, I feel like it’d be much less problematic to just scale them both above Toneri and call it a day.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Where's this from? The Movie Novelization?

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Yes.
"The idea that there's a being that could threaten even Kaguya ... And it's going to appear in this land? Did that mean that the day was coming when the peace they had finally obtained would be disturbed? Was the future people were walking toward now going to be destroyed once more? But Sasuke shook his head no. He wouldn't let that happen. He would protect it himself." -Sasuke Shinden

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

I’m pretty sure that the God Tiers will be revised after we finish the revisions for Part II, you’ll just have to wait until we get to that.

Also the Juubi being 5-C has definitely been rejected before, and Kaguya doesn’t scale to the creation/destruction of her realms, only the Expansive Truth-Seeking Orb does.

Have we really even started them?

 

[Galvino]

Idk why people are debating in this thread as if the mods are ever gonna agree with Universal anything in Naruto.

 

[RamadhanDayYet]

Can anyone summarize what's going on?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Bump

 

[KingTempest]

Edit: I finished reading all the comments made before this, I agree with everything mentioned in the end game, just scale them all above Toneri at least

The OP already conceded and this is what we regularly do.

Locking thread