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Yeah, that works. SPSM >>> BSM, and BSM Naruto wasn't even at full power or using the Kurama Avatar when he defeated Toneri, while Momoshiki was able to harm him through his SPSM Avatar.
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Simple Boruto revision
- Thread starter Thazumaki
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Downscale him from Sasuke or just place him at unknown
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I think downscale makes more sense, considering it was his power fused with Momoshiki that let him fight Naruto and Sasuke simultaneously.
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So, basically I just returned and I see this thread escalated a lot,
my point still stands and I see others managed to prove it while I was afk,
Momoshiki should definitely scale above Kaguya, even though such thing is bluntly obvious to anyone with eyes and any form of intelligence,
glad we got over that, question still stands how many times, and on top of that, why are characters stronger than Kaguya still placed bellow her?
But I'll be serious, I personally, again, personally, after reading all the manga and novels don't request them to be put at multiversal nor universal, but the fact that we have (Moon level)Juubi < Juubito < Madara < Toneri < Kinshiki =< Kaguya < Momoshiki < Sasuke < Naruto < Jigen < Isshiki < Code =< Eida (still Moon level), its insulting that we are practically accepting Juubi < Code as a basic feat, and with all the multipliers and feats shown, he shouldn't even be sorted in the same category, this man deserves a special website compared to Juubi,
for Gods sake, Baryon Mode Naruto defeated Isshiki, and Code shrugged it off and said he can kill BOTH Naruto and Sasuke at the same time, that man is leagues and leagues above Naruto at this point, and I wont even talk about Juubi... I just hope Otsutsuki God won't appear any time soon cuz he finna get Moon level as well probably
Edit: I finished reading all the comments made before this, I agree with everything mentioned in the end game, just scale them all above Toneri at least
my point still stands and I see others managed to prove it while I was afk,
Momoshiki should definitely scale above Kaguya, even though such thing is bluntly obvious to anyone with eyes and any form of intelligence,
glad we got over that, question still stands how many times, and on top of that, why are characters stronger than Kaguya still placed bellow her?
- Momoshiki created and owns a dimension, he is stronger than Kaguya, Kaguya can destroy her dimension, is it that hard to conclude that Otsutsukis have ability to create own dimensions and just as easily destroy them?
- I'll bring a new theory in all of this, using some form of logic; what if Otsutsuki can indeed create parallel universes to our own, but it is sort of limiting, Kaguya might've created several smaller ones, 5 dimensions each consisting of star + planet + moon, while Momoshiki wen't with creating just one but the size of ours?
- Theory 2, what if Otsutsuki can do what they are shown and we stop downplaying them since Kishimoto didn't want to pull DBZ move on us and say: "Ah yes, I'm Kaguya I'm easy tier 3C now add me to VsBattles wiki~", I really believe it's pointless to argue in size since all the evidence currently gathered show that Otsutsuki. dimensions. are. having. other. celestial. bodies. There is absolutely no reason what so ever to put them at moon level when they casually show feats of destroying stars, absorbing THOUSANDS OF PLANET-WORTH OF ENERGY (thats a feat by itself needed for planetary destruction capacity, remember that Naruto slipped his chakra and it was insane amounts destruction, now multiply that by every planet Momoshiki destroyed, thousands? millions? He is as old or older than Kaguya, more than thousand years old)
- Theory 3, we put them at moon level since weakest Otsutsuki to probably ever lived, a fodder among fodder cut the moon in half... this one sounds amazing guys!
But I'll be serious, I personally, again, personally, after reading all the manga and novels don't request them to be put at multiversal nor universal, but the fact that we have (Moon level)Juubi < Juubito < Madara < Toneri < Kinshiki =< Kaguya < Momoshiki < Sasuke < Naruto < Jigen < Isshiki < Code =< Eida (still Moon level), its insulting that we are practically accepting Juubi < Code as a basic feat, and with all the multipliers and feats shown, he shouldn't even be sorted in the same category, this man deserves a special website compared to Juubi,
for Gods sake, Baryon Mode Naruto defeated Isshiki, and Code shrugged it off and said he can kill BOTH Naruto and Sasuke at the same time, that man is leagues and leagues above Naruto at this point, and I wont even talk about Juubi... I just hope Otsutsuki God won't appear any time soon cuz he finna get Moon level as well probably
Edit: I finished reading all the comments made before this, I agree with everything mentioned in the end game, just scale them all above Toneri at least
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Multipliers? What multipliers?
Baryon Mode Naruto no longer exists.
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IIRC he said the Number of trees that Momoshiki cultivated = Multiplier
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Don't people scale to their kekkei genkai? Why wouldn't she scale to those orbs?
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We have Base Naruto < BSM Naruto < SO6P Naruto < Baryon Mode Naruto + Sasuke < Sealed power Code (Limiters) < Code no limiters
Also, Momoshiki ate more Divine fruits than Kaguya, by pure logic it can be considered a multiplier
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The Expansive Truth-Seeking Orb is not a Kekkei Genkai, it’s a Kekkei Mōra.
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There is no reason for them not to other then lol outlier
I would honestly rather have it decided as a outlier and taken off the page then have it have a entirely seperate rating
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Why would Code scale above Isshiki/Baryon Mode Naruto?
He was only stated to be stronger than Jigen (Otsutsuki Form).
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Code also has Isshikis pure power now
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Don’t we have a discussion rule against trying to scale Kaguya to the ETSO?
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it was put in place because it was a outlier (no other argument held any proper reasoning at all)
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Ahh makes sense.
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It can be other way around as well they have similar feats
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Scale the Kage to him lol
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Considering So6P naruto vs madara, i'll say the other way.
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It still doesn't mean that Code with Limiters scales above Isshiki.
He's stated to be stronger than Jigen so he's at least on par with Isshiki (The Imperfect one due to resurrecting using Jigen's body).
Without Limiters, Code might be above that Isshiki (Imperfect) and on par with the hypothetical Isshiki (The one that was supposed to use Kawaki's body)
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yes but SO6P teen Naruto is fodder compared to 19yo BSM Naruto tbh so it isn't really valid
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I mean Toneri himself is fodder to that naruto
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true true
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The wiki decided to not accept scaling to ETSB or dimension to physicals and normal statistics, this is even a discussion rule for Naruto:
Though the arguments themselves are not persuasive.
While there is a relationship between the size of Chakra and the strength of the Shinobi, it is not a 1:1 linear relationship; otherwise Naruto creating a 1000 Shadow Clones would mean that Naruto and his clones are literally 1/1000 weaker. So I don't see how the Sensing Water Sphere scan or the amount of Juubi Chakra is relevant for scaling or how they can be 'calculated'.
Plenty of characters can create clones in Naruto, but this never implied a multplier or a reliable method to judge their strength. While the meteors can yield something high (certainly not Solar System level), they would be a supporting feat since Pain's AP and Durability doesn't scale to his Chibaku Tensei.
Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball is hax, not raw power. It does not imply that Kaguya can vacuum palm a star or a galaxy to destroy them, or that her normal attacks contains the power of a universe. Furthermore, having a dimension is not relevant for scaling, especially since we don't know how these dimensions came to be.
Momoshiki has anti-feats, such as running away from Gaara and Darui, and getting stalemated by them, and Gaara blocking his attacks both in base and Fused forms.
The quality of Chakra Fruits differ, and not all Otstsuki are as powerful as each other. For all we know, each fruit only slightly increased Momoshiki's power, so a multplier doesn't work.
The parallel dimension line is so vague that it is unusable for scaling.
First of all, parallel doesn't mean same size. It just means separate but not intersecting. These are parallel lines:
Furthermore, the term the novel uses is "Isekai", which can be translated to "parallel/alternative/different world", and can refer to the planet itself just like Kaguya's 'lava world' or 'ice world' (Manga uses the term "Sekai"). And if it was a dimension, it could refer to a pocket dimension we never got to see being used as battery; Isshiki's Dōjutsu created a pocket dimension being used for utility, and Obito's Mangekyō Sharingan created a pocket dimension being used for utility. Furthermore, the pot/kettle Naruto was sealed in was a pocket dimension that was created through unknown means, and Nue had a pocket dimension that was being created by a Root scientists years before aliens started showing up.
Kaguya, before she gained the power of the Ten Tails and possibly before eating a fruit, was cautious that stronger Ōtsutsuki would come after her, which Sasuke suspected from Kaguya creating an army. However this does not confirm that Momoshiki/Kinshiki themselves are stronger than Ten Tails Kaguya. Kaguya might be cautious that a veteran Ōtsutsuki who ate lots of fruits might grow to her level and challenge her, or she might be afraid that an Ōtsutsuki would use hax to steal her power since Momoshiki stated that it is tradition for the younger generation to absorb the power of the older one.
| Please refrain from attempting to upgrade the regular statistics of Kaguya and Momoshiki to Star level or above. It was decided that Kaguya should not be granted durability or attack potency comparable to her Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball for her casual attacks, as the only scene wherein this rating would be warranted is strife with Plot-Induced Stupidity. Insistence of this will be unappreciated. |
Though the arguments themselves are not persuasive.
While there is a relationship between the size of Chakra and the strength of the Shinobi, it is not a 1:1 linear relationship; otherwise Naruto creating a 1000 Shadow Clones would mean that Naruto and his clones are literally 1/1000 weaker. So I don't see how the Sensing Water Sphere scan or the amount of Juubi Chakra is relevant for scaling or how they can be 'calculated'.
Plenty of characters can create clones in Naruto, but this never implied a multplier or a reliable method to judge their strength. While the meteors can yield something high (certainly not Solar System level), they would be a supporting feat since Pain's AP and Durability doesn't scale to his Chibaku Tensei.
Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball is hax, not raw power. It does not imply that Kaguya can vacuum palm a star or a galaxy to destroy them, or that her normal attacks contains the power of a universe. Furthermore, having a dimension is not relevant for scaling, especially since we don't know how these dimensions came to be.
Momoshiki has anti-feats, such as running away from Gaara and Darui, and getting stalemated by them, and Gaara blocking his attacks both in base and Fused forms.
The quality of Chakra Fruits differ, and not all Otstsuki are as powerful as each other. For all we know, each fruit only slightly increased Momoshiki's power, so a multplier doesn't work.
The parallel dimension line is so vague that it is unusable for scaling.
First of all, parallel doesn't mean same size. It just means separate but not intersecting. These are parallel lines:
Furthermore, the term the novel uses is "Isekai", which can be translated to "parallel/alternative/different world", and can refer to the planet itself just like Kaguya's 'lava world' or 'ice world' (Manga uses the term "Sekai"). And if it was a dimension, it could refer to a pocket dimension we never got to see being used as battery; Isshiki's Dōjutsu created a pocket dimension being used for utility, and Obito's Mangekyō Sharingan created a pocket dimension being used for utility. Furthermore, the pot/kettle Naruto was sealed in was a pocket dimension that was created through unknown means, and Nue had a pocket dimension that was being created by a Root scientists years before aliens started showing up.
Kaguya, before she gained the power of the Ten Tails and possibly before eating a fruit, was cautious that stronger Ōtsutsuki would come after her, which Sasuke suspected from Kaguya creating an army. However this does not confirm that Momoshiki/Kinshiki themselves are stronger than Ten Tails Kaguya. Kaguya might be cautious that a veteran Ōtsutsuki who ate lots of fruits might grow to her level and challenge her, or she might be afraid that an Ōtsutsuki would use hax to steal her power since Momoshiki stated that it is tradition for the younger generation to absorb the power of the older one.
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Uhhh, no? Teen SPSM Naruto can somewhat contend with Kaguya, who's significantly above Toneri via scaling above her sons, so I don't see the Last BSM Naruto being above his Teen self tbh.
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It doesn't need to be linear for her to scale to it. Naruto amped the shinobi alliance multiple times which is obviously more then taking a bit from them
It has no reason not to scale it creates dimensions.
Kaguya is shown to have one method of creating dimensions in the manga, has statements of those being her dimensions even after her "death" and in the databooks she has more statements of creating dimensions
Not anti feats at all the Kage have no anti feats and lore for them to fight Otsutsukis
Just covering what I was arguing
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Just curious, but wasn't there a novel statement from The Last Novel which says something about Saturn existing or the Naruto universe being outright called a universe? Don't these both fit the requirement since the former is mirroring our universe and the latter is outright calling it a universe?
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I might be in an agreement with this. Thought this only looks to apply to their ninjutsu since their ninjutsu harmed/contended with them. And since the New Era Kage's ninjutsu don't have any anti-feat of their own, they might be on their levels.
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Which means that we can scale Naruto higher than them, and the Juubi far higher than them, but we can't really put a number to it.
There are requirements before creations feats can scale to regular statistics, and they got even more strict recently. If Kaguya couldn't pass them previously, she isn't suddenly going to now.
Creation Feats
Creation feats are feats in which a character creates objects from nothing by means like Reality Warping or similar. This separates them from feats in which objects are created from already existing materials, which would be calculated by conventional methods, or feats that qualify for...
vsbattles.fandom.com
Ownership of a world or dimension doesn't mean scaling to it. The databook has conflicting translations, one with "create" and one with "reshape". Reshape is considered more reliable.
It would be powercreep that shatters the power ceiling for non-aliens with no explanation.
Hashirama and Madara were considered the epitome of genetics and talent for all Shinobi throughout their long history, and they didn't get close to Moon level at their peak while alive.
So explanations other than 'the new gen Kage trained to be stronger and faster', can be preferable.
Yep, Saturn is mentioned in The Last novelization.
| As per per the the astronomer’s astronomer’s prediction, as prediction, as the the moon moon approached Earth, approached Earth, it it would would become distortedbecome distortedand torn apart due to Earth’s gravity, and gradually crumble from the surface. As the brokenand torn apart due to Earth’s gravity, and gradually crumble from the surface. As the brokenfragments drew closer to Earth, they would encircle it like the rings of Saturn, and many of thefragments drew closer to Earth, they would encircle it like the rings of Saturn, and many of thefragments from this ring would be drawn in and fall to Earth—the astronomer explained that thisfragments from this ring would be drawn in and fall to Earth—the astronomer explained that thiswas the origin of was the origin of the increase in meteorites.the increase in meteorites. |
But there is no statement about "mirroring" for the Boruto stuff, only about an "Isekai", which can be translated in all sort of ways: (Parallel/Alternative/Different) (World/Dimension). The world/dimension is never called a universe.
From the context what most fit seems to be "alternative world", which can simply refer to Momoshiki's planet itself.
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Wasn't this portion in regards to her dimension swapping abilities, anyway? Kakashi initially mistook it for her reshaping the world, but we now know that was not the case. Unless you guys are talking about another thing entirely.
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Oh, makes sense. But what about this? It is straight-up called 'this universe' referring to where Naruto resides. Since its outright being called a universe, does it fit the requirements?
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Yes we can it is less then their chakra so it wouldn't make kaguya more powerful by orders of magnitude
The only reason it wasn't accepted was because again lol outlierThere are requirements before creations feats can scale to regular statistics, and they got even more strict recently. If Kaguya couldn't pass them previously, she isn't suddenly going to now.
Creation Feats
Creation feats are feats in which a character creates objects from nothing by means like Reality Warping or similar. This separates them from feats in which objects are created from already existing materials, which would be calculated by conventional methods, or feats that qualify for...
No its not
Still no anti feats which are needed power cliffing is here and it has been here as much as people try to fight against it what was previously insane always gets outclassed
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Yep, likely referring to this translation:
The translation itself has been discussed here, though it is of note that the technique itself is about teleportation and has nothing to do with creating dimensions/worlds.
Sure, Naruto lives in a universe, don't think anybody disputed that. According to the data book, the Ten Tails is a fragment of the god tree that created the universe, so there are different theories for how the Naruto universe came to be.
But this does not mean that "Kaguya's world/dimension" or "Momoshiki's world/dimension" is refeering to a universe. The planets are the only part confirmed to be referred to as their world/dimension. There might be a star or a moon in the background, and for all we know the planets might exist within a universe, but this does mean that the star, moon, or entire universe is their dimension/world.
Feel free to make a scaling chain out of this then.
Ok.
Agree to disagree.
Historically, the kage has yet to scale to Momoshiki/Kinshiki.
Though I think the Boruto scaling should become more clear after the timeskip.
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multiple of those would still agree with itYep, likely referring to this translation:
The translation itself has been discussed here, though it is of note that the technique itself is about teleportation and has nothing to do with creating dimensions/worlds.
There is no scaling chain its literally such a tiny boost it doesn't change anything
Your haven't given any evidence why it is better
So your saying they are anti feats yet they don't scale at the same time
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Yeah, I thought as much. It's clearly a mistranslation, or just weird hype text, since we know for a fact that the technique simply teleports her between the dimensions and has no other applications beyond transportation.
PrinceofPein
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You got this wrong boss, code without limiter is the one that scales to jigen (10% isshiki iirc) the actual isshiki>>>>>>>> code
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