(Sigh) Death Manipulation Mechanics

[Schnee_One]

I really didn't want to do this but that's ultimately my fault for not discussing it enough on the previous thread about Death Manipulation.

So let me get this straight, when we think of Death Manipulation, we think "Death of the Body". Which makes sense if we don't know the mechanics of a characters Death Manipulation.

Issue is, if we treat it like its Death of The Body "The Max Regen it should bypass is either Low-High possibly Mid High" and it stops there unless there's more feats for Death Manipulation itself.

The reason why Death of The Body can kill regen on that level is because the Living Body is comprised of Living Cells, Tissue, and Organs, Killing off everything Living in a Body includes all of this, thus Death Manipulation even in the most basic form should bypass this.

But here's where I think it stops

High to Mid-High Regenerationn involves regenerating from Atoms, Vapor or Dust. Which, isn't Alive to begin with as well as the fact that atoms are in a dead state on their own.

TLDR: If said regen does not Require Living Tissue or Cells to regen and the Body can survive without them, Death Manipulation that doesn't go beyond Death of The Body should not bypass Mid-High and especially not High levels of Regen.

 

[Kaltias]

Honestly if the power is simply "make the enemy drop dead" with no explanation of the mechanics you should go only by the highest showings.

For all you know you are shutting down their heart, which would only require Low-Mid to survive

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

The issue here is you are forgetting the fact that for the most part, Death Manipulation generally involves life force. Something almost similar that to a soul. I don't see you regenerating from atoms when your life force in general has been destroyed.

 

[Schnee_One]

@Dragon Atoms don't have life force, they are not alive

Draining life force from something with no life force does nothing

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Whyb do you need to drain life from atoms to drain ones life force. You are draining the life force for said person who is still alive. For the most part you aren't even doing dsmsge to regenerate from physically.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I agree with Kalitas in that one can not say much without mechanism.

And if it comes to life force drain... usually life force is the kind of thing that replenishes itself if you stay alive, so any regen that keeps you biologically alive should eventually bring you back from it.

I definitely don't see beings that can regenerate from inorganic states be subject to lifeforce drain. At that point the Regenerationn of the characters is essentially just straight up ressurrection, so temporary lack of life force shouldn't matter.

 

[Schnee_One]

Because said person can regenerate their body from atoms.

If said person is getting their life force drained from their Living being, why would that kill them if they can regenerate from something that's dead?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

It depends on how the death manip ability has been explained in what it does and what it's been shown to work on.

 

[Schnee_One]

I agree but what if it has no explanation

 

[Antoniofer]

As I said before, DM generally involve draining your life force or send someone to the afterlife, so is indeoendent to the regen of the target. Making someone's heart to stop or destroying their atoms is no DM, is indirect death (destroying atoms can even affects non living beings/objects).

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So what about beings who don't have any internal organs, beings who are purely mechanical? Do we just assume they are immune to Death hax now?

I also always attributed life force as something non-corporeal and more akin to a soul. Something which is mentioned on our Death Manipulation page. Honestly, I still very much disagree with this, but I know when I am outvoted.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

If it just stops the heart, then it isn't death manip.

 

[Schnee_One]

If they're not living to begin with, killing them shouldn't help

But since both beings you showed are actually considered alive, no they're not immune

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

What is our standard about a character "being alive" actually? Like do we considered Zombie to be alive just because they can move? Or like Dragon examples, do we considered a nonexistent being and robot to be alive for the same reason?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Then how does your average Death haxer ala Zeref kill a robot who despite being alive has no organs in their body to kill. What of the average Death haxer who has no explaination other than "my opponent dies"? What then is it useless?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

What is our standard for Life Force? What do we consider "alive"? Since we are already nerfing the power, we have to go in detail about what isn't affected by it as we have to update the Death Manipulation page after this.

 

[Schnee_One]

What is our standard for Life Force? What do we consider "alive"?

Sentience more often then not

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

What do we define as "sentient" by our standard and do we assume all sentient beings have organs or a life force?

 

[Antoniofer]

Undead, ghosts, wraiths and similar shouldn't be affected by conventional DM, entirely artificial beings and animated objects shouldn't be affected by any kind of DM. As for what is considered alive, humans, animals, and plants counts, although the last two ones do not go to the afterlife, they can still be affect by life force manipulation.

 

[Schnee_One]

Sentience in the wiki is literally no different from sentience in real life.

Does it think for itself? Does it act upon what it does?

Sentience isn't defined by the organs or body that a being inhabits, but rather how said being acts and thinks for itself.

Now as for beings without a living body, no, it shouldn't be affected

 

[DragonEmperor23]

What about beings that come back from atoms

 

[Schnee_One]

Beings that come back from Atoms are alive, but standard Death should not be able to kill him which is what I discussed early in the thread

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Seeing as atoms are already dead, it is resurrection at this point apparently. So Death hax now doesn't work on people who can comeback from atoms. I disagree with this, but I'll leave it be.

 

[Antoniofer]

Regen only works when the user is alive, if the user were sent directly to the afterlife he can no longer regen, no mater the state of its death body. Resurrection would be a different thing.

 

[Crzer07]

that would just be durability negation or biological manipulation. if there's no known mechanic then death manipulation

 

[Kaltias]

Regen only works when the user is alive

Vapor, ashes, atoms etc are by no means alive, yet you can regenerate from that.

The point is, if you don't know what killed the opponent, why would you assume Regenerationn negating properties?

Maybe you simply shut down their brain. Maybe you took their life force. Maybe you destroyed their mind and soul leaving the body as an empty shell. You can't know if there is no explained mechanic.

So if you can't know, you should only assume that it bypasses the defensive powers that it has already bypassed in the past.

If it killed a Mid regenerator assume that it stops at that, if it killed someone with Low-Godly, then it works up to that level

 

[Antoniofer]

That first you mentioned sounds like enhanced resurrection, not Regenerationn.

Durability negation =/= DM, the last one ignore durability but causing instadeath sending the target to the afterlife, once one is in the afterlife, can't control the body ourside if it.

That's it, there's some simple DM that the only thing that it does is manipulate causuality, from causing the heart stop to a natural disaster (like Death Note or Final Death), then if is only causing death vua manipulating the events, then the user can regenerate. But I doubt that regen would help the user to survive the eyes of the Basilisk or an Avada Kedabra.

 

[Kaltias]

Actually I mentioned Mid-High/High regen.

Avada Kedavra works via soul destruction doesn't it? Mid-Godly regen would be enough to survive

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp, I'm talking about conventional Regenerationn, pretty much anyone at that level transcend the concept of life and death, so those DM do not work.

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

Transcendent concept of Death is type 5 immortality tho.

 

[Schnee_One]

Welp, I'm talking about conventional Regenerationn, pretty much anyone at that level transcend the concept of life and death, so those DM do not work.

This thread has nothing to do with conventional regen though.

Regenerationn also memtions everything Kal mentioned

 

[DMB_1]

Standard Death manipulation is literally: "BAM, you are not alive anymore, ad your physical body just becomes an empty shell". Even High Regen wouldn't save you from that.

 

[Kaltias]

@Anto

But the idea at the core is the same. If my Regenerationn allows me to survive worse stuff than your death manipulation, I should be able to regenerate from that.

It blocks all my vital functions? Mid regen

It kills all my cells down to the smallest one? Mid-High

And so on.

My point was that an ability with no explained mechanic can't be assumed to bypass regen (except Low but who cares about Low regen), because everything that you know is "the opponent dies", you don't know what caused it

 

[Antoniofer]

Mmm... Then it would be more like Dragon said, is more resurrection.

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

>Who cares about Low Regen?

I care.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Tbh, any Godly regen might as well be ressurection.

 

[Antoniofer]

@Kaltias, of course, someone has to explain how the power works, if it is via causuality then it can be regenerated from than; but is by inducement they could or not regen from it.

 

[TriforcePower1]

I actually agree with Dragon here. If you're dead haxed without the body getting affected, regen doesn't kick in then, as regen is literally "fixing the body", but if the body doesn't have anything wrong (except that it's dead), you simply won't regen. Godly is an exception as it's basically resurrection and it's independent from the body.

 

[fandom_9TailAcno]

depends on type of death manipulation, if a attack can take away your life force instantly then you are dead af

 

[Schnee_One]

depends on type of death manipulation, if a attack can take away your life force instantly then you are dead af

Imma have to ask if you actually read the first few posts of this thread.