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Should we split up vegetas profile?

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To be fair, the reason Vegeta wasn't Low 2-C back then was because it was still progressing and it was too soon to properly analyze stuff. But the idea that Vegeta has come far, Jiren saw potiential, even super casual Jiren is Tier 2, and it doesn't contradict anything due to Goku still being stronger. I suppose Low 2-C SSB is fine at least with Final Flash. But I still prefer to here from AKM Sama. And he's obviously not this level till this very moment and beyond as it should specify.
 
I just re-watched the episodes. I agree with Low 2-C Final Flash.

Vegeta asks Jiren to take him seriously and Jiren simply stomps Vegeta after getting serious. A bit later, Piccolo states that Vegeta awakened his hidden/dormant power, then he proceeds to charge up the Final Flash (which amazes Goku and makes Belmod worried about Vegeta actually being a threat) and he manages knock Jiren over, who had to use a defensive stance to block the Final Flash. IIRC, knocking Jiren over was a feat only Low 2-C characters managed to achieve. I'll also wait for AKM, since he(she)'s more knowledgeable than me.
 
Actually the only thing about Vegeta's final flash which surprised everyone was his increase in power as compared to when he fought Jiren just moments ago.

Belmod even made note of this saying "This increase in power...How can it be higher than when he was fighting before?!". There is nothing comparing him to UIO1 level of strength. It's only after Jiren started showing a hint of his power such that Belmod hadn't seen in a very long time and Vegeta got SSBE, that he became Low 2-C along with Kaioken x20 Goku.
 
Nobody is saying he's UIO1 level though. In fact, I specifically noted that he's not quite there yet. And if everyone was just surprised by the increase itself and not the power, why would Belmod be freaking out that much (and freaking out more than he did against the U7 Genkidama) and why would Jiren actually feel the need to block the attack?
 
If he's not at UIO1 level of power, he is not Low 2-C by default, because that's the baseline for Low 2-C in ToP. Anything below that level can't be put into Low 2-C.

Belmod freaks out over the simplest things, it's called creating fake tension. If you watched the episode, that's the same reused animation when Vegeta was pushing Jiren with his punches while saying that Jiren was stronger and faster against Goku. And despite knowing Jiren's power, Belmod had the same expression and was going like "What's happeneing Jiren?" The piece of dialogue clearly suggests that Belmod was refering to the massive increase in the strength of Vegeta.

Because... that's what any sane alien would do. Just because he can tank it doesn't mean he shouldn't dodge or block it. The attack didn't even scratch his hands. And he blocked and dodged many attacks when he was fighting SSB Goku in ep 109 and Hit in ep 111. Him blocking an attack is no means to qualify the other character as Low 2-C.
 
@AKM & Medeus

Thank you for helping out.
 
"If he's not at UIO1 level of power, he is not Low 2-C by default, because that's the baseline for Low 2-C in ToP. Anything below that level can't be put into Low 2-C."

> Did you... forget Infinite Zamasu existed? And what exactly says UIO1 is the absolute baseline of Low 2-C at that moment and nothing beneath it can be Low 2-C despite there already being a weaker Low 2-C character in the verse?

"Belmod freaks out over the simplest things, it's called creating fake tension. If you watched the episode, that's the same reused animation when Vegeta was pushing Jiren with his punches while saying that Jiren was stronger and faster against Goku."

> The simplest things, such as? The only times I recall Belmod freaking out that badly was against Vegeta Blue and later against UIO3 Goku. And what does it being reused animation have to do with anything, exactly?

"And despite knowing Jiren's power, Belmod had the same expression and was going like "What's happeneing Jiren?" The piece of dialogue clearly suggests that Belmod was refering to the massive increase in the strength of Vegeta."

> That dialogue happened while Vegeta was pushing Jiren back and was before he used the Final Flash, so... can't really refer to the increase when it hasn't happened yet.

"Because... that's what any sane alien would do. Just because he can tank it doesn't mean he shouldn't dodge or block it. The attack didn't even scratch his hands. And he blocked and dodged many attacks when he was fighting SSB Goku in ep 109 and Hit in ep 111. Him blocking an attack is no means to qualify the other character as Low 2-C."

> That was just supporting evidence, but whatever.
 
Belmod freaking out despite knowing that Jiren wasn't even showing the "hint" of his full strength was just a bit of overreaction on his part. His reaction was more toward the increase in the strength of Vegeta and that has been made very clear through his dialogues. Nothing suggests that power was Low 2-C. Sorry.
 
@AKM

Are you arguing for downgrading Vegeta from Low 2-C, or for that he should keep his current ratings?
 
I don't think he is, I think he's merely saying that normal SSB Vegeta pre-Toppo shouldn't be Low 2-C
 
Aha. Well, I agree about that.
 
What increase in Vegeta's strength? Belmod was freaking out while Vegeta was pushing Jiren back too, and the dialogue you referred to happened while Vegeta was pushing Jiren back before the Final Flash, Vegeta had not powered up at that point.

And then there's the fact that when Vegeta used the Final Flash, Jiren was at the same level he was when he fought UIO1/Post-UIO2 SSB Goku (also it's pretty notable that Vegeta was able to withstand an onslaught from Jiren at this level and still have enough energy to go Blue and use a Final Flash). Then Vegeta was able to actually significantly affect this Jiren, knocking him over, something no 3-A character has done at this point and Jiren even commended him for the power of his Final Flash.

Also if Vegeta, after increasing his power, was still 3-A, why would Belmod be freaking out? He never freaked out over anything 3-A before or after, so why would he be doing so now? Also Jiren has already shown numerous times that 3-As are just totally non-threats to him, so why would Belmod be getting scared if Vegeta's increase was still on the 3-A level?
 
"the dialogue you referred to happened while Vegeta was pushing Jiren back before the Final Flash"

The dialogue I'm referring to where Belmod is surprised by Vegeta's power boost happened during the Final Flash. Watch it again.

"Jiren was at the same level he was when he fought UIO1/Post-UIO2 SSB Goku"

That's headcanon. When Vegeta said that Jiren was stronger and faster against Kakarot, Jiren got a little serious and proceeded to stomp Vegeta. There's no proof he was using the same power as against UIO1 and Vegeta doesn't scale either since he got stomped. Barely surviving an onslaught is no grounds of scaling two characters.

I already answered the other queries. There is no Low 2-C SSB Vegeta in the ToP.
 
Okay, what exact line are you referring to then? Because you quoted one earlier, which had happened when Vegeta was pushing Jiren back and before the Final Flash.

I don't see how it's not a logical assumption to say immediately after Vegeta called Jiren out on using less strength than he was against Post-UIO2 SSB Goku, Jiren used that level of strength to stomp Vegeta. And yes, I'm well aware Vegeta Blue does not scale to UIO-tiers, pretty sure I've said that twice now. And I just said Vegeta withstanding it was notable, I wasn't using that as a point. And he didn't just "barely survive," he immediately after got up, went Blue, and performed the Final Flash.

You didn't respond to the new points I made...
 
I agree with AKM Sama here. And I did mention that Jiren was indeed more casual against Vegeta than he was against Goku. But Vegeta was still brushed aside similar to the likes of Frieza and Gohan.
 
Yes, he was more casual against Vegeta Blue before the Final Flash, which wasn't ever disputed... by anyone.
 
Agreed with atleast 3-A possibly Low 2-C Final Flash because of Belmod reaction and buildup of Vegeta energy by Jiren as well as complement of Jiren that force wasn't half bad while spirit bomb even by SSBKX20 Goku didn't get complement

Disagreed with Low 2-C SSB Vegeta in ep 122 because its established that Jiren was holding back more against Vegeta than Goku which obviously is refering to ep 109 pre UIO and Vegeta only did that much good because he saw through attacks of Jiren so the moment Jiren stops holding back immensely Vegeta gets stomped and it isn't wrong to assume that Jiren can supress his energy to 3-A levels like Beerus did in BOG arc
 
So the alternatives are:

1. 3-A, higher or far higher with Final Flash

2. 3-A, Low 2-C with Final Flash

3. At least 3-A with Final Flash

4. 3-A, possibly Low 2-C with Final Flash

5. Simply 3-A by merging his Future Trunks Saga and ToP keys
 
Obviously I want option two the most, but I could go for option four if I can't get that. Merging his Future Trunks Saga and ToP keys does not seem like a good idea.

On another note, why are Goku's FT and ToP keys merged? And why is he scaled to Post-RoSaT Vegeta in the FT arc?
 
Either option 1 or 4 is fine because it talks about possibility of Final Flash being a higher tier while not putting Final Flash solidly in a higher tier due to lack of proofs

Because there is almost no difference of power of Vegeta in FT arc and of TOP arc

Agreed that Vegeta SSB post ROSAT was superior to SSB Goku because Vegeta spends his time training while Goku was learning Mafuba
 
Option 5.

I already explained why SSB Vegeta during ToP was never rated as Low 2-C initially when the episodes came out and nothing has changed now.
 
I'm with AKM Sama, that Option 5 is still the safest route without assumptions.
 
Why should the keys for those arcs be merged though? That still doesn't make sense.
 
Because his stats for both arcs are more or less the same and it would be similar to Goku's keys. I guess he only gains a couple resistances in ToP that is different from previous arc?
 
He does demonstrate Absolute Zero resistance in ToP; that's pretty much his primary improvement profile wise. There might also be other abilities he resists as well.
 
I don't understand why Goku's are merged either, but considering that during the FT Arc, Vegeta gets a very noticeable boost in power (that Goku really should not scale to), I feel like it should be different from the ToP key. Also Vegeta did train in the RoSaT before the ToP, so he should be stronger (and he performed better against Jiren than SSBKKx20 Goku did).
 
I agree that Goku in FT arc shouldn't scale to Vegeta SSB who noticably got stronger and was trashing Goku black who was trashing SSB Goku 1 episode back and since Goku didn't train in HTC and only learned mafuba so he wouldn't grow stronger and before anyone brings Goku Kamehameha overpowering Merged Zamasu attack it was just PIS because it doesn't make sense for stronger SSB Vegeta and Trunks for not overpowering the attack while a weaker SSB Goku(who doesn't train in HTC) to grow stronger than both of them

Though Vegeta really didn't perform better than SSBKX20 Goku,Jiren was just noticable holding back like Vegeta stated as moment he stops holding back immensely he was overpowering SSB Vegeta and Vegeta really only doing good because he saw through Jiren attacks which didn't help on later on when gap became too big

Though I agree with option 1 or 4 since it talks about possibility of Final flash being higher tier because its a much stronger attack but if option 5 is being agreed on so might as well go for option 5
 
Jiren was holding back against SSBKKx20 Goku too though, to the point that Goku had to rely on the Spirit Bomb. Vegeta Blue actually landed a good hit and was driving Jiren back.
 
Jiren was holding back against SSBKX20 Goku I agree but Jiren was holding back against SSB Vegeta even more than against Goku basically suppressing himself to 3-A levels as evident by Vegeta stating that Jiren was faster and stronger when he fought Goku which could mean 2 things either its refering to against SSBKX20 Goku in ep 109 or the battle with Goku in the same episode either way Jiren was using more power against Goku than against Vegeta so moment Jiren stops holding back immensely he stomps Vegeta completely even his swats his galick gun away

So in conclusion SSB Vegeta was only doing good because

1) Jiren was holding back even more compared to his fight with Goku

2) Vegeta saw through moves of Jiren while he was fighting Goku so he was able to dodge Jiren attacks

But after Jiren stops holding back immensely against Vegeta the 1st reason is gone and the advantage he had due to observing movements of Jiren is negated due to too much of a huge gap hence 2nd reason is gone too

I can understand your point because I thought the same thing too when I saw the episode for the first time but due to those 2 points Vegeta cant scale
 
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