Should we make Jonathan MFTL?

[AgentJojoBerserk]

Hi, I'm just wondering if we should upgrade Jonathan to MFTL at all, and what you guys have to say about this, as people on a Discord server were discussing about Jonathan supposedly being MFTL, and I need some input on what you guys may need to add to this, and there is some evidence to support this as far as I know. I don't have my scans/claims currently, but I'd maybe like some input first on the issue.

 

[Damage3245]

No? I can't see a good reason why we should.

 

[Phantom_Falcon]

basically

Part 3 Dio is stated to be < Part 1 Dio and part 3 dio was capable of reacting to stand attacks

Jonathan fights on par with part 1 dio

though i can see why others dont buy it. that said, i would think jonathan is at least comparable to a young joseph dodging a ray of light

 

[AgentJojoBerserk]

Lets see what everyone else has to say.

 

[Damage3245]

Part 3 DIO was never stated to be slower than Part 1 Dio as far as I can recall.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I mean if we have Part 3 DIO at that rating then I don't see why Part 1 wouldn't be the same to whom Jonathan scales

 

[Damage3245]

though i can see why others dont buy it. that said, i would think jonathan is at least comparable to a young joseph dodging a ray of light

To be honest after rereading that scene in the manga I don't think the calc for that is legit. The laser doesn't even look like it is going to hit Joeseph of Caeser. It looks like it was just fired close to them and they jumped out of panic. It also wouldn't make sense for her to try and shoot her disciples with a laser beam.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Maybe you could argue it's accidental but yah what you're saying makes sense

 

[Chariot190]

The feat is legit, they both jump after it happens while it's mid flight, it doesn't matter if it wasn't aimed directly at them (Although Caesar literally says that was close! mid jump implying if they didnt jump they would have been hit, Joseph even says right after Hey, that was close! Don't point it this way idiot!, confirming it was pointed at them and again, if they didnt dodge it would have hit), they still reacted to the laser. Hell, both Joseph and Caesar visibly react to it and look at it mid flight while it's passing by them (Caesar is even looking downward at it while having the sweat anime reaction) meaning they reacted to it and clearly registered it mid flight regardless, so they can very clearly perceive it, and as such, still have that reaction speed.

And Kars reacting to UV light is legit (in the manga anyway, anime changed it). Kars visibly reacts to Stroheim's beam after it's half way to him with him looking straight at it withe a shocked expression, before rasing his hands to block it it, he also then turns aroud and jumps back before the laser can progress any further all shown clearly with speedlines, all happening after the laser is fired but before it hits him in the face and while it's moving.


> It also wouldn't make sense for her to try and shoot her disciples with a laser beam.

She was literally going to let her diciples die, even her own son, starve or straight up get bisected on their first day of training. It isn't out of character at all, if they couldn't dodge it then they obviously arent good enough to fight Kars, given Kars can clearly react to light and perform actions while it's mid flight.

There's also Caesar making a speech and all that while his bubbles reflect natural sunlight, which is a relavistic feat.

Either way, if we treat Part 3 Dio as physically inferior than Part 1 Dio is faster, if we treat them as on par, then theyre on par. Jonathan is equal with Part 1 Dio, who is at minimum several times above the likes of Straizo. Post Overdrive Jonathan probably is MFTL in reactions all things considered, I can see why some would be hesitant though given it's retroactive scaling (although not by much). A likely MFTL reactions should be fair? This hasnt even been the first time this has been brought up either, pretty sure it was Somebody Data who was on board with it?

 

[Damage3245]

Their words would make sense even if it was close to hitting them. Then jumping does not mean the beam was definitely going to hit them, especially since we can already see the beam passing them.

It's also wildly inconsistent that Joseph could react and jump at FTL speeds yet get tagged by a crossbow.

Career making a speech is a case of Talking is a Free Action and we don't treat it as a speed feat.

 

[Andytrenom]

This revision has to be halted for the time beng. We are migrating to an external forum and are in the process of transferring data from the original one, meaning that any posts made during this point of time will be lost, so revision threads are prohibited for now

For further information, visit this thread

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/4208849?useskin=oasis#278

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I was expecting this to be a Fun and Games board

 

[Chariot190]

>Their words would make sense even if it was close to hitting them. Then jumping does not mean the beam was definitely going to hit them, especially since we can already see the beam passing them.

Not quite, their words specifically point out that A. Them dodging was required, if not they would have been hit, whether it be by the laser itself doesn't matter, they both thought they would be hit if they did not dodge, also it wasnt passed them completely, actually judging by the angle it probably would have skimmed Joseph's arm (Not withstanding the following panels suggests that it was aimed at them and judging by where they would have been standing, pobably would have blow their dick off if they didnt jump but regardless), it was passed Caesar probably but not Joseph. Both of them say it was close, referring to them dodging it to avoid was a clse call, Lisa also doesn't deny that she pointed it at them or attempted to hit them, which is also in character for her. 2. They both clearly reacted to the beam mid flight, whether or not you want to say they dodged it means nothing, they still both perceived the beam of light in motion.

>It's also wildly inconsistent that Joseph could react and jump at FTL speeds yet get tagged by a crossbow.

I hope you're joking, because this may the worst case of cherry picking I've ever seen on this site, there's 3, possibly 4 light based feats in Part 2 and you're trying to suggest that Joseph getting tagged by a rebound, while he's distracted, while riding on a horse, all while it's slightly implied he got hit on purpose so the force of him getting hit would **** his own crossbow without anyone realizing it so he could get a sneak attack rebound on Wham as well (All ignoring Joseph actually perceived it anyway when he realized it was there). But given you're suggesting that end of part joseph isn't even mach 1, let's go through some feats.

1. Tarkus launches debris as fast as an explosion, Zeppeli is capable of reacting to them and seeing them.

2. Tarkus himself is faster than an explosion.

3. Jonathan reacts to SRSE.

4. Jonathan reacts to SRSE, again.

5. Jonathan while bleeding out, reacts to an explosion.

All of which are feats in Part 1 alone that's above a crossbow.

And in Part 2.

1. He's reacted to SRSE.

2. He's reacted to SRSE twice.

3. He's casually reacted to machine gun fire, even deflecting it.

4. Kars, who Joseph scales to directly, casually sliced hrough heavy artilery fire without a deadpan bored expression.

5. Kars perceives light moving, goes to defend himself before it hits his face, then proceeds to jump back, turn 90 degrees and defend even further, before the light can progress much further, if at all.

6. Joseph and Caesar very clearly perceive a beam of light, heavily implied that they dodge it as well, or at the very least, move completely the **** of the way.

7. Caesar manages to explain his plan while light is being deflected.

8. Kars deflects heavy artillery fire again casually.

9. Kars visually reacts while the laser he accidentally caused is being fired from the Aja, before it even burrows deep into the volcano.

10. The narrator clearly states Kars could have dodged debris being launched at high hypersonic velocity into orbit if Joseph wasn't distracting him causing him to not notice the debris.

11. Joseph actually reacts to Kars getting hit by a laser too, Stroheim fires it, there's a panel of of Joseph going Ahh! with a shocked pose and expresson, the Kars gets hit (Should menton Kars is reeled back, looking directly at the laser with his opened eye, with his arms up, while in the pane that showed the beam of light about 1cm away from Kars face, he wasn't blocking or doing any of that. And Kars absolutely must have reeled back and put his arms up to block before the light hit him as the light pieces his hands due to being 5x that of a standard military grade UV light.

There's more as well. You're trying to suggest that Joseph failing to dodge a crossbow, he didn't notice till it was right on him, from behind, while riding a horse in a chariot race, which may or may not have been intentional in order to use the force of getting hit to fire his own bow, means Joseph ain't even that fast, yet there's literally like 10 casual as **** hypersonic to high hypersonic feats, and possibly up to 4 laser feats, maybe more. Try again, even if we assume Joseph opted to not get hit to lull his opponent into a trap while making use of the force, it wouldnt be a contradiction, that would be the contradictio. Not to mention the feat in question, Joseph and Caesar visibly gasp while the Aja is reflecting light, assuming the maximum timeframe for it to reflect the light the needed amounts of times, in order to react after it begins reflecting but before the laser is fired is, again, at least a rel feat. Of course the existence of mach feats doesnt prove FTL speeds, but when said mach feats were all done casually, and several ftl feats were done with seemingly effort, there's no contradiction. What they do in fact do though is completely shut down your counterpoint.

>Career making a speech is a case of Talking is a Free Action and we don't treat it as a speed feat.

You're technically wrong on the front, we don';t treat talking as a free action as a speed feat if the talking is used to find timeframes or things like that. Which dosn't change the fact Caesar could make a speed, and pose, while light was being reflected right behind him. Yes, it is a case of talking is a free action, which is why it'd be allowed, Caesar still managed to perform a feat all while light itself, natural light was being reflected through his bubbles, was moving, it's because talking is a free action is why it's allowed because him talking doesnt negate the timeframe, and even then, him performing a physical action would be more than enough. Same with Josuke and Jotaro having a conversation and casually reacting to the situation before the lightspeed Chili Pepper could move 100m and fry Okuyasu's ass. No offense Damage but the only contradiction is the claim you're making (even then it may not be a contradiction), while conviently ignoring everything else. But ok, go make a Joseph is only mach 0.40877 thread I guess, see how that pans out.

now before you respond, I suggest making a rebuttal that doesnt involve ignoring everything including both Joseph and Kars reacting to UV light (this one is absolutely straightforward, there's no way to misintepret this one), on top of Joseph and Caesar perceiving the light beam from Aja (With extreme implications the dodged the laser itself) and arguably even a few more like Kars visibly reacting to and panicking while the Aja fires a laser into the volcano but before it could even burrow into the ground.

>I was expecting this to be a Fun and Games board

Why? It's been thrown around before, even some admins seemed to think it was legit.

>This revision has to be halted for the time beng.

That's fine, I'll copy and paste this thread into a note for the time being then.

 

[Damage3245]

Hoo boy, that's a whole big Wall of Text for an irrelevant thread. Jonathan is not going to be upgraded to MFTL. Since this revision has been put on halt anyway, I shall close the thread.