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Should Base Sonic get an Upgrade.

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Reasons why, because i understand that the norm for Sonic's AP was under Planet level and that has been a staple for a long time but like i have said before if you feel a character shouldn't be a level without reasoning then it wouldn't make it any less wrong or right( of course if it was some logic like a street character who has no means(weapons, equipment, powers) of destroying a planet)
 
BETRAYAL!!! YOU'VE BETRAYED ME!

OK on to the seriousness. Sonic has beaten these characters himself. Ifrit was beaten by multiple characters, even Espio got in on the action and was victorious. Though it wasn't at full power, it's safe to say that Ifrit shouldn't be too far from its full potential as all the characters considered it a threat. That's why beating characters like Emerl and a Possibly Planet Buster like Chaos makes the feat all the more plausible.
 
I'm not sure what to say about the Ifrit since I've never played any of the Rivals games.

But for the love of God, please don't bring Perfect Chaos into this.
 
Again. Chaos Emeralds = Planet Buster, Absorbs Chaos Emeralds Energy = Planet Buster, Chaos Absorbs Planet Level Energy = Planet Buster. Need I say less?
 
There's no oh boy to this, I don't care what Uncle states on that. Beating Emerl and harming Dark Gaia is enough info to understand why it iz true. So Imma gonna use it.
 
Again. Perfect Chaos was defeated by base Sonic in Generations and is the source of the current tiering for the base forms of most recurring characters. Again, your logic says Perfect Chaos = Super Sonic by virtue of being powered by the same energy source. Again, this causes issues with scaling (Super Sonic --> Perfect Chaos --> Base Sonic). The only way around this is to write off base Sonic defeating Perfect Chaos in Generations as an outlier or PIS, which then forces us to rescale almost all of the recurring characters.
 
You mean because it was used to fire a laser that was capable of "destroying planets and 'piercing' stars"? That's what you're getting at here. If that's what you want to do, go ahead, for everyone else here, we're going to use the Chaos Emeralds which are in fact a planet busting source, and scale them to P. Chaos. So you go ahead, Uncle and continue to think that way, we're moving on though.

So at least three legitimate planet bustahs, guys. Azzy? Why do you think he's only that powerful in durability if he's gone face to face with those powers.
 
To Uncle. Though I respect your logic, you always come with the same explanation for this same situation. What you would need to do was prove that the Chaos Emeralds used in Sonic Adventure were different from the ones used in Sonic Adventure 2. P. Chaos can only be made through those Chaos Emeralds, it is how he transforms. He absorbs their energy into his being to make himself more powerful.

All you're stating is that it's an outlier because of rescaling. And so what, everyone with relevance will be rescaled over, tedious process or not, it doesn't give way to the fact that these characters are as strong as they are. Iblis as an example, was stated to be a Planet Buster. Though we didn't get to see his destructive potential at hand, he was remarked as devastating the world. It makes far more sense now why he could defeat him at all. Because Sonic characters have this much power and Silver is a prominent rival of Sonic and Shadow.

You don't have to change anything if you don't wish to. I'll make the changes all by myself if I gotta, but we aren't taking away facts because you want to make these characters outlier central.
 
There are quite a few protagonists who have durability far exceeding their AP, but are still able to fight guys out of their weight class because they're the protagonist. Sonic hurt Dark Gaia yes, but he didn't take him down on his own and was focusing on specific weak points. I'm also really not sure where to place Perfect Chaos, anymore. He only displayed city busting power, and while the emeralds have shown to be capable of destroying planets, didn't Chaos only absord the "negative" energy of the emeralds, which is what allowed Sonic to beat him down after absorbing the "positive" energy?
 
the weak points part was discussed in this thread, but Davy0 is likely to reply to that

as for P Chaos it is possible Chaos did not have the full energy of the Chaos emeralds like all the other times the chaos emeralds have been shown
 
And that's good for those protagonists. Even being able to hurt characters that are that capable is fine. And the characters you are talking about usually have a weapon of plot advancement to be capable of hurting those characters. Sonic used nothing more than his own abilities to do so. Doesn't that happen in a lot of series, though? Characters have to focus on a weak point to beat their opponent yet they still yield the same results that the opponent they face have because they defeated them?

P. Chaos only displayed City Busting power, yes. It doesn't change the fact that he absorbed the power of the chaos emeralds, unless you're trying to imply and you'd need to prove that the Negative Power of the Emeralds is anything less than Planet Level. And if that's the case, you'd also need to prove whether the weapons that use them, use the negative or positive powers, or if they combine them.

This time he beat him without going Super Sonic, so what does that imply?

Then you still have two other problems which are Emerl, and Ifrit.
 
It depends on the weak point. Saiyan Saga Vegeta was planet level, and Yajirobe was low city level, but he still cut off Vegeta's tail with a regular sword. This clearly means that Vegeta's tail was more vulnerable than the rest of his body. It is definitely possible the same could apply for beings like Dark Gaia.

Perfect Chaos absorbed only the negative power of the Chaos Emeralds in a time before they even had any planetary feats. He used this to devestate a city, which was treated like a really big deal. Sonic defeating Perfect Chaos in Generations definitely shows that he's gotten stronger, but it doesn't suddenly mean Perfect Chaos was a planet buster all along who just decided to focus on Station Square and not instantly devestate the entire planet with his rage.

It implies he got stronger. It doesn't imply planet level Chaos.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
It depends on the weak point. Saiyan Saga Vegeta was planet level, and Yajirobe was low city level, but he still cut off Vegeta's tail with a regular sword. This clearly means that Vegeta's tail was more vulnerable than the rest of his body. It is definitely possible the same could apply for beings like Dark Gaia.
Perfect Chaos absorbed only the negative power of the Chaos Emeralds in a time before they even had any planetary feats. He used this to devestate a city, which was treated like a really big deal. Sonic defeating Perfect Chaos in Generations definitely shows that he's gotten stronger, but it doesn't suddenly mean Perfect Chaos was a planet buster all along who just decided to focus on Station Square and not instantly devestate the entire planet with his rage.

It implies he got stronger. It doesn't imply planet level Chaos.
Click to expand...
DB Kai shows that Yajirobe trained with Krillin, meaning that he' was on par with them, making Yajirobe Small Planet Level. I wouldn't call it a regular sword unless you're implying ki isn't being used to cut whatever needs to be cut. Piccolo already speaks about how the mechanics of ki can be used to empower strikes, and Yajirobe is capable of using ki.

Then you would need to prove that the Negative Power of the Chaos Emeralds, when all 7 are collected, are only City Busters when used, Azzy. That would also apply with the different weapons used with the power source of the Chaos Emeralds. Would that mean that Dark Gaia absorbing the Emeralds meant that he absorbed both powers due to the effect that happens with the Emeralds losing their luster and if that's the case does the Eclipse Cannon only use the Negative, Positive or both energies to cause that level of destruction.

P. Chaos used the Chaos Emeralds, does that mean that Super Sonic only uses the Positive half of the Emeralds when he transforms then? If so, P. Chaos would still be planet level because the principle of equality, positive charges can't exist without negative charges.

Your turn.
 
Yajirobe never did so in the original manga, so that's an odd contradiction. Regardless, he was still implied to be the weakest of the group (doing next to nothing until then), so I wouldn't say he's automatically small planet level. Regular sword = sword with no special properties. Yajirobe enhancing his strikes with ki doesn't mean his sword is suddenly able to cut through anything. It still implies Vegeta's tail was more vulnerable than the rest of his body.

That's not how burden of proof works. You are asking me to prove an unfalsifiable claim, because the "positive and negative" aspects are never mentioned again. However, as I've said, where they are mentioned is Perfect Chaos, who only displayed city level power and was also only stated to have absorbed part of the emerald's power. It is up to you to prove this portion was planet busting, not for me to prove it wasn't.

Again, look above. Super Sonic was only mentioned to use the positive energy that one time, and that was only because Chaos got to the emeralds first and was using them in anger. You believe Sonic has gotten stronger, correct? Then it's possible for his Super form to have gotten stronger, as well. Like I said, it is up to you to prove Perfect Chaos can planet bust.
 
WOG states that DB Kai is canon to the manga. Thus it can be accepted that Yajirobe is also canon to the training session between Z Senshi. And Yajirobe is lazy and cowardly, that has nothing to do with him being stronger or weaker than Krillin or the other Z Senshi.

OK. Well. Since it is implied that Sonic only uses the positive charge of the Emeralds because the Emeralds do not lose their luster after being used by him, and it seems that when drained of their power the Emeralds lose all of their luster (a la Unleashed and Sonic Adventure) we can imply that Sonic is only using the positive charge instead of the negative charge which drains the emeralds of their power.

So by extension of that little tidbit and through the information given by Tails that Super Sonic allows the user to give characters positive energy to dispel evil, it can be noted that, yes Sonic onlu uses the positive charge of the Emeralds.

Your turn, Azzy.
 
It is canon to the manga yes, but it is not exactly the same as the manga. I am not saying it's false, I'm saying it's an odd contradiction to the source. Regardless, you are right. Yajirobe is cowardly and lazy, meaning he likely trains less (like how we didn't even see him in the manga). However, he was able to cut off Vegeta's tail, while the rest of the Z fighters couldn't even hurt Nappa. Unless Yajirobe can beat Nappa, I think it seems like Vegeta's tail is in fact, more vulnerable.

Where is this implied? Again, the only mention I have seen of positive and negative charges being used is Adventure. That is the only time someone is mentioned to only harness part of the Emeralds' power and not all of it. Didn't the Emeralds only lose their luster in Unleashed when they were completely drained?

Having the ability to "dispel evil" does not automatically mean he only uses a portion of the Emeralds' power and doesn't just harness it in his own way.

I have to go out for a while, but I will continue with you when I come back, if you would like.
 
It's a stretch to say Yajirobe was on par with Piccolo because there is no proof. But during their training, Yajirobe was only toying with Krillin showing that he was outclassing him.

Yes, but it implies that both of the powers were completely taken. When losing their luster the first time in Sonic Adventure, the colors and sheen they had, completely disappeared. Yet the Emeralds still had positive charges within them otherwise Sonic would not have been capable of transforming.

This implies that not only is Sonic not using the full potential of the Emeralds when he does transform, but also that the Emeralds are more powerful than the Super States or the Ark gives them credit for, as only the Ark needs to be charged that the Emeralds, making them unquantifiable from what they've been used for, except with Dark Gaia who absorbed said energies. This would also imply that after absorbing the power the emeralds had completely, that he absorbed all that unquantifiable energy, meaning that... (heheheh) the Emeralds are far stronger than you guys give them credit for. What we don't know is how much power Sonic or the Super States use at a given time, though. And there-in lies the problem.
 
I agree with Darkness on the dubiousness of Kai = original manga, as there are a few odd differences.

Before anything else, let me get something straight. Are you now vouching for an upgrade to the true potential of the Emeralds and NOT Super Sonic and other Emerald users? Because you're right. It's very possible nobody yet has used them to their full potential. They are McGuffins, after all.
 
Azzy 1 - I don't care about the second one right now. What I do know is that in most things, such as chaos and order, there are two sides to every coin. There's a balance, thus if the negative is strong thean positive should be just as. So if Sonic is someone who uses predominately the Positive side of the Emeralds, then the Negative Side should be capable of giving just as large a power boost. All that other stuff can wait because again, I have no proof on the power of the Emeralds, it would just mean they'd be unquantifiably stronger, same for the Sol Emeralds since they are the Sol Realms version of Chaos Emeralds.

Azzy 2 - Fixed.
 
And that's the thing, like the Star Rod of Mario's Universe, the emeralds have the ability to turn "thoughts into power". It was also stated in multiple mediums outside of the Game Canon, like Archie and Sonic X. But again that's again, unquantifiable.

But yeah, that only proves more, that the two sides, the negative and positive sides, the ability to fight creatures, the ability to give the Emeralds power to three separate characters and them all be "Planet Level" against a Multiversal Level opposition. It makes a little more sense. I just wish Sega went more thoroughly into their origins. The Master Emerald is even more powerful than them having the ability to either increase their strength or completely nullify it.

A single Chaos Emerald had frightened an entity that could easily bend time to its whims. There's more to the story than we're seeing.

But enough on that. The most important thing is, did I prove that it is quite possible that even while using only those negative energies, Chaos is Planet Level.
 
I believe you've justified the "Possibly Planet level" that he has, but I would need rock solid evidence to get rid of the city ranking and just make him planet level. It's nothing against your arguments, which are quite good, it's just that there's a lack of proof that actually exists due to the vague nature of the Emeralds.
 
OK, since you put it that way, I'll take him out of the running. Next we have characters like Emerl (Gerald Robotnik stated he'd destroy the world), Ifrit (though he was weakened, he shouldn't have been far off from his actual power, it shouldn't have been a huge leap, it was just because it was hungry more than it was a stipulation), Iblis (beaten by Silver though it was possibly damage over time there's also the fact that when both Iblis and Mephilis come together they get a huge boost in power, possibly far too huge to be justified as how weak as they are, but that's my opinion), and Dark Gaia (Still harmed him either way).
 
Emerl is very powerful, but we don't know to what extent. Destroying the world does not necessarily mean destroying the planet in one shot, which is what is required for planet level. Sauron was said to destroy the world were he not stopped, but he is far from a planet buster.

I have never played Rivals. What's Ifrit's deal?

Iblis is difficult to quantify. His lesser forms are complete garbage tier and were more annoyances than actual threats. His full form (the one Silver fights in his final boss battle), was faaar more powerful. However, as far as I'm aware, he never did anything close to planet busting. Iblis laid waste to the entire surface of the world, which is Multi-Continent level, I believe. Examples like this are why I'm all for bumping Sonic up a few tiers, but I'm still pretty iffy on planet level.

Imperfect Dark Gaia was harmed by Sonic when the blue blur rammed into his weak points. Yes he harmed him and yes it would likely be way above city level, but that doesn't mean it required planet level energy. Someone repeatedly jabbing your pressure points is going to be a lot more effective than just trying to smack you while your guard is up. Also, what was Imperfect Dark Gaia's planet feat, again? I thought Perfect Dark Gaia was the one who was calced to be Planet level.
 
Emerl destroy the half of the Space Colony Arc you see that breaks apart when the Eclipse Cannon was coming out. Which is why it was made of stone, the Ark was much larger before that event happened.

From Gerald's Diary.

We find out that not only can Gizoid absorb your "moves" but any kind of weaponry it can get its hands on, it can duplicate it. Weapons of Mass Destruction were nothing for it to absorb and use. It's crazed state of being was also seen through this journal entry, as well as the destruction of much of at least half the Ark it was on.

Journal 6

My worst fears have come true. The Gizoid has absorbed enough weaponry and technology that it has started to go out of control. The resulting rampage resulted in the destruction of most of the "Ark." ... I have deciphered the rest of the stone tablet. It says, "When the Gizoid had learned all that it could, it became a god of wrath, and all was destroyed." The researchers somehow managed to subdue the Gizoid and sealed it away. Luckily, it only had one "Chaos Emerald" installed. If it were to have all 7 Emeralds installed, it might destroy the whole planet. The Gizoid is too much of a liability. I tried destroying its core, but nothing I did worked. I understand too little of the technology that built him. My best hope is to try and reprogram its AI into a free-willed, emotions-based AI...

I never played it either, I just do research, Rivals wasn't really my thing, they have a camera that can turn objects into pictures though, lol. Ifrit is basically Iblis with wings from another dimension. It was mentioned by multiple characters and written in Gerald's diary that if it consumes Chao and you have Seven Rings to open the portal to that dimension you can use Ifrit's power as your own and destroy the world.

Iblis didn't gain any power in between that time. The volcano was only his lair, and they went there because it was his main headquarters. As long as his flames existed, he could go anywhere wherever said flames appeared. Hence why you see his minions which are basically pieces of himself yet weaker.

I don't care if it's Continent Level or whatever, but Sonic deserves a boost, and so do his pals. It would enhance the power of the verse dramatically.
 
Imperfect Dark Gaia is the one who got the large planet calc not Perfect Dark Gaia, also PDG is stronger than IDG

U. Emerl being planet level is believeable mainly due to him having the 7 chaos emeralds
 
Again, Gerald's speculation that Emerl might destroy the planet, while likely well founded, is not solid enough proof that Emerl could one-shot earth.

Like I said before, "Destroy the world" is immensely vague, and while it gives us some sort of idea about the character, I don't think it's justification for planet busting.

Okay, so like I said, he's probably Multi-Continental.

Like I said, I agree with the boost. I'm just trying to figure out an AP, though Multi-Continent doesn't seem far-fetched, at all.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Again, Gerald's speculation that Emerl might destroy the planet, while likely well founded, is not solid enough proof that Emerl could one-shot earth.
Like I said before, "Destroy the world" is immensely vague, and while it gives us some sort of idea about the character, I don't think it's justification for planet busting.

Okay, so like I said, he's probably Multi-Continental.

Like I said, I agree with the boost. I'm just trying to figure out an AP, though Multi-Continent doesn't seem far-fetched, at all.
Click to expand...
It came from a scientist who created a weapon that could probably destroy the world several times over, and could pierce stars.

I mean... what do you want him to say... He had 7 Chaos Emeralds which we've already agreed is Planet Level... Plus in that moment, the reason why Emerl overloaded was because he absorbed the residual energy from the stars that Eggman had busted.

That's fine.

I can take that more than "IT WILL BE TOO PAIN-STAKING TO SCALE EVERYONE! GAGRGAGEGAGSGGAG!"
 
now this is where the confusion about statements comes in

Gerald's speculation is likely accurate, because again the 7 chaos emeralds can planet bust with most things, and also Gerald is the one who created Space Colony Ark the same thing that is able to bust a planet, i don't think Gerald would have been thinking straight metaphorically when talking about the chaos emeralds especially with a very powerful machine like Emerl
 
Okay, so we can assume Emerl was a planet buster, but possibly had lower durability and had the capacity to overload.

So is anyone else on board with Multi-Continental Sonic and friends?
 
The durability wouldn't have been lower because of that. He was "sick" it didn't mean his Durability degraded. Also, wouldn't the statement that Emerl destroy half the Space Colony Ark be grounds to boost Chaos power with only a single Emerl. (Evil grin)
 
im fine with it, but before making any changes we should wait for the Attack Potency chart to be changed

also Super Sonic is likely to be upgraded to Large Planet level due to him fighting Dark Gaia
 
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