- 8,160
- 2,190
This kinda sad tbhm every thread always the same people unhappy with what was decided like 5-6 times? just get over it.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Shonen Heroes vs Villiains (3 vs 3)
- Thread starter Jimbob_The_Fiddle
- Start date
- Status
- 8,160
- 2,190
It can be soul crushing, fear manipulation, phantom pain, paralysis, being turned to ash ( Aizen), make you pass out, or even act as like heavy gravity.Kidkinsey said:
Some people like Toshiro can freeze others around him.
- 3,527
- 1,255
they is no clear difference with the two , just the potency of the reiatsu , with enough reiatsu it is possible to affect those that don't resist soul manip until they get dusted .Kidkinsey said:
depending of your resistance to soul manip you can get just scared , being paralysed , not being able to breathe or straight up die.
it's just that , so far , only aizen have showned to be able to do dust people. Other can just kill without dusting .
- 63,529
- 8,506
Cal.
I saw that.
Stop and make a CRT.
I saw that.
Stop and make a CRT.
- 3,527
- 1,255
anyway , i'm voting aizen by soul crushing anyone beside ichigo and then toying with him with KS and then kill him .
vilains win
vilains win
- 3,527
- 1,255
renji have resistance to soul manip , pretty much anyone in bleach have strong resistance to soul manip( varying of course depending of the characther)Kidkinsey said:
and reiatsu is only passive while in combat and can be controlled if neccesary even in combat .This site consider that the two characthers are transported in the fight location already prepared to fight as by Standard Battle Assumption so reiatsu is always passive on this site .
and basically , yes , anyone with soul manip can kill anyone that doesn't resist soul hax unless their are of an higher dimension or lack/doesn't need a soul or if their soul manip is too weak to even kill a soul without resistance.
- 3,527
- 1,255
even if KI is soul related that wouldn't change anything , Goku never resisted soul hax and verse zequal doesn't give resistance to characthers they didn't display before , same thing for chakra in naruto .Kidkinsey said:
- 4,327
- 2,978
Reiatsu Crush has two effects, a physical effect and a soul effect.
The physical effect is not that impressive usually, someone like Aizen's Reiatsu Crush can disintegrate physical objects and opponents. It can apply a physical pressure that brings opponent's to their knees or knock them out from the pressure (we see this with Yamamoto knocking out Nanao or Gin/Byakuya freezing Rukia).
The soul crush effect. This is the thing that everyone seems to not understand and thinks they understand like Amexim is doing here:
The first time Reiatsu Crush is revealed to us to be affecting the soul directly as hard evidence would be Ulquiorra telling Yammy that he is passively crushing Tatsuki's soul with his presence, thus his Reiatsu (his spiritual pressure). This is concrete evidence that Reiatsu has soul manipulation.
The next hard evidence is also just as explicit and undeniable when Starrk ponders about his past. Starrk had wished he was never strong, he envied the weak because the weak could be together unlike Starrk. Since Starrk was strong, had an enormous amount of Reiryoku, he passively killed the souls of those around him. It is explicitly stated he killed their souls passively, through his Reiatsu.
This is even demonstrated to us in the next chapter when Starrk is sitting near a pile of dead souls that he reveals he did nothing to, they just died by being near him.
Reiatsu Crush has a physical effect and it has a soul based effect that can kill the soul depending on your Reiryoku/Reiatsu or feats.
Now why is Reiatsu Crush so strong soul based wise then? This is because Reiryoku grants resistance to Soul Manipulation and Bleach characters can Reiatsu Crush other Bleach characters despite their resistance.
Bleach characters get their Reistance to Soul Manipulation through Tatsuki, a girl with barely above average Reiryoku (she has more Reiryoku than a normal person, but she only has enough to see spiritual beings and does not have spiritual powers, thus she barely has more than the average person) who resisted her soul being sucked out via having more Reiryoku than average people.
Now why doesn't Verse Equalization protect you from Reiatsu Crush?
Equalized energy would only allow you to resist the physical damaging effects like Aizen's disintegration so long as your energy is at least equal to his (so a similar tier).
Equalizing energy does not grant you the abilities of the equalized energy nor the resistances of the equalized energy because at that point you have changed the powers of the character and the match is no longer accurate. We have had a thread involving stuff discussing Reiatsu Crush and Energy Equalization as well and it was agreed that Reiatsu Crush's soul manipulation does not get equalized nor resisted because Reiatsu Crush is an ability, a soul manipulation ability and you need resistace to it to resist it just like any other ability.
The physical effect is not that impressive usually, someone like Aizen's Reiatsu Crush can disintegrate physical objects and opponents. It can apply a physical pressure that brings opponent's to their knees or knock them out from the pressure (we see this with Yamamoto knocking out Nanao or Gin/Byakuya freezing Rukia).
The soul crush effect. This is the thing that everyone seems to not understand and thinks they understand like Amexim is doing here:
| We all know how Reiatsu Crush works. It's the most famous thing in Bleach. If you want me to buy your shitty "proof" with one scan that can't be directly interpreted to be "Soul Manipulation" and all available information lending towards it being AP based, good luck. Overwhelming aura hax is a case by case thing, with all things, and Reiatsu Crush is AP based. |
The first time Reiatsu Crush is revealed to us to be affecting the soul directly as hard evidence would be Ulquiorra telling Yammy that he is passively crushing Tatsuki's soul with his presence, thus his Reiatsu (his spiritual pressure). This is concrete evidence that Reiatsu has soul manipulation.
The next hard evidence is also just as explicit and undeniable when Starrk ponders about his past. Starrk had wished he was never strong, he envied the weak because the weak could be together unlike Starrk. Since Starrk was strong, had an enormous amount of Reiryoku, he passively killed the souls of those around him. It is explicitly stated he killed their souls passively, through his Reiatsu.
This is even demonstrated to us in the next chapter when Starrk is sitting near a pile of dead souls that he reveals he did nothing to, they just died by being near him.
Reiatsu Crush has a physical effect and it has a soul based effect that can kill the soul depending on your Reiryoku/Reiatsu or feats.
Now why is Reiatsu Crush so strong soul based wise then? This is because Reiryoku grants resistance to Soul Manipulation and Bleach characters can Reiatsu Crush other Bleach characters despite their resistance.
Bleach characters get their Reistance to Soul Manipulation through Tatsuki, a girl with barely above average Reiryoku (she has more Reiryoku than a normal person, but she only has enough to see spiritual beings and does not have spiritual powers, thus she barely has more than the average person) who resisted her soul being sucked out via having more Reiryoku than average people.
Now why doesn't Verse Equalization protect you from Reiatsu Crush?
Equalized energy would only allow you to resist the physical damaging effects like Aizen's disintegration so long as your energy is at least equal to his (so a similar tier).
Equalizing energy does not grant you the abilities of the equalized energy nor the resistances of the equalized energy because at that point you have changed the powers of the character and the match is no longer accurate. We have had a thread involving stuff discussing Reiatsu Crush and Energy Equalization as well and it was agreed that Reiatsu Crush's soul manipulation does not get equalized nor resisted because Reiatsu Crush is an ability, a soul manipulation ability and you need resistace to it to resist it just like any other ability.
- 40,470
- 12,953
That thread had no conclusion. A large portion of staff agreed with me there if it's the same thread I think you're talking about. And I can promise you a lot of people were against it because "hurr durr hax is good." Not you, IMade. You're one of the most logical people I know.
- 4,327
- 2,978
It had a conclusion even if you disagreed Cal, you need to make a CRT at this point instead of derailing threads.
- 2,097
- 578
ok so how exactly would the interaction between goku and somebody like kenpachi go down, i wont use aizen since he has regen or whatnot, cant goku uber blitz before kenpachi flexes his reitsu
and this sounds similar to somebody i know who argued meruem>madara , with the whole if a nen user attacks somebody without nen it can kill them
and i have my thoughts for the chakra thing but ive already seen it discussed on here before so ill pass lol
and this sounds similar to somebody i know who argued meruem>madara , with the whole if a nen user attacks somebody without nen it can kill them
and i have my thoughts for the chakra thing but ive already seen it discussed on here before so ill pass lol
- 40,470
- 12,953
IMade, bud, every one of these votes has at least something to do with Reiatsu Crush. My complaining may be annoying but it's not derailing.
- 40,470
- 12,953
"and this sounds similar to somebody i know who argued meruem>madara , with the whole if a nen user attacks somebody without nen it can kill them"
Oh trust me, Bleach isn't the only one that gets to benefit from this. On this site you can get away with that too.
Oh trust me, Bleach isn't the only one that gets to benefit from this. On this site you can get away with that too.
- 8,160
- 2,190
Even without that, none of them can kill Aizen and they'll be under KS as soon as they look at him.
- 4,327
- 2,978
It is deraling Cal, I would have thought as Admin you'd recognize that arguing on a VS thread about how you personally disagree with CRT accepted rules and abilities is derailing.
You are shifting the actual discussion of the fight to voice your complains about an accepted rule and ability instead of making a CRT as any user should do when they disagree with such topics.
You are shifting the actual discussion of the fight to voice your complains about an accepted rule and ability instead of making a CRT as any user should do when they disagree with such topics.
- 2,938
- 365
It's just a slimy way of trying to win fights. Trying to somehow preserve an aspect of the verse that was only a thing because of AP gaps, unique verse mechanics that only interact with each other, and blatantly refusing to recognize that the implications of Energy Equalization would necessitate tons of abilities having intersections that add or take away traits— and then extending only the unique mechanics and turning it into hax when you know damn well that AP has everything to do with it even working in the first place is wank.
To sit here and half-ass energy equalization like that is totally disingenuous. No fights can even be had outside of Bleach, because instead of interpreting the power to work in the exact way it does against each verse, because despite Reiryoku and Ki and Chakra and shit being almost exactly the same in definitions, or Reiatsu being functionally the same as everything else, because of Bleach's unique verse mechanics, we're going to make those mechanics operate in ways they never have in their own verse in these versus battles.
Goku's Reiryoku would be insanely broken if we used Bleach's method of handling the Spiritual Life Energy concept and let those rules work both ways for both Sides, like we SHOULD to keep things fair and work within the spirit of the concept of Energy equalized. Otherwise Genjutsu doesn't work on Aizen or Dio or whatever, because they don't have Chakra Nervous systems or other pedantic stuff that gets in the way of making the fight happen on the same terms.
Goku's shit would be insane, he'd see Ghosts, and Reiryoku Crush everything if we let all of the rules that the energies work for each other be the same. But instead, you're only going to let Bleach Rules apply to characters who aren't from Bleach and don't get the benefit of what would objectively be the same shit working how it does for the others. All of a sudden, you need some weird hax and abilities when the source of all of this are the laws of physics within that verse. By this logic, Energy Equalization breaks down, because everything is technically different, and to equalize the energies is to give abilities, traits, and weaknesses to characters who don't have them. Like assuming Genjutsu works on Goku or Gon, who have never shown neither "Chakra" not a nervous system of energy flow— much less one that goes to the brain— since Chakra is manipulated in the brain for Genjutsu to work. No Chakra in your brain? How can you Genjutsu someone?
Ugh. Whatever.
To sit here and half-ass energy equalization like that is totally disingenuous. No fights can even be had outside of Bleach, because instead of interpreting the power to work in the exact way it does against each verse, because despite Reiryoku and Ki and Chakra and shit being almost exactly the same in definitions, or Reiatsu being functionally the same as everything else, because of Bleach's unique verse mechanics, we're going to make those mechanics operate in ways they never have in their own verse in these versus battles.
Goku's Reiryoku would be insanely broken if we used Bleach's method of handling the Spiritual Life Energy concept and let those rules work both ways for both Sides, like we SHOULD to keep things fair and work within the spirit of the concept of Energy equalized. Otherwise Genjutsu doesn't work on Aizen or Dio or whatever, because they don't have Chakra Nervous systems or other pedantic stuff that gets in the way of making the fight happen on the same terms.
Goku's shit would be insane, he'd see Ghosts, and Reiryoku Crush everything if we let all of the rules that the energies work for each other be the same. But instead, you're only going to let Bleach Rules apply to characters who aren't from Bleach and don't get the benefit of what would objectively be the same shit working how it does for the others. All of a sudden, you need some weird hax and abilities when the source of all of this are the laws of physics within that verse. By this logic, Energy Equalization breaks down, because everything is technically different, and to equalize the energies is to give abilities, traits, and weaknesses to characters who don't have them. Like assuming Genjutsu works on Goku or Gon, who have never shown neither "Chakra" not a nervous system of energy flow— much less one that goes to the brain— since Chakra is manipulated in the brain for Genjutsu to work. No Chakra in your brain? How can you Genjutsu someone?
Ugh. Whatever.
- 8,160
- 2,190
Use characters with '''good resistance'''.
- 2,097
- 578
i do see what he means by cheesy way to win fights, imagine arguing ginyu force vs espada and saying espada neg despite the HUGE difference in stats
besides haki (which may end up being just like the rest) reitsu ki chakra magic spirit energy are all very similar with different names
besides haki (which may end up being just like the rest) reitsu ki chakra magic spirit energy are all very similar with different names
- 3,527
- 1,255
exactly , there is verses/characthers that can fight bleach and even stomp them at their own game , soul manip .Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
but no , let's put them against people that don't resist , that will go well . let's not forget to complain about it afterward .
- 3,527
- 1,255
"hax is boring , it win fight too easily"Kidkinsey said:
proceed to say that AP stomp are better lmao
- 14,575
- 5,877
The argument that Reiatsu Crush is used to get easy wins is wrong. We don't accept passive victories after all.
I suggest you to drop the subject already.
I suggest you to drop the subject already.
- 3,527
- 1,255
are 3vs3 even accepted baseline ? legitimately asking .The Calaca said:
- 14,575
- 5,877
Ginyu vs Charles Xavier.
Would you say that Ginyu wins because he's a lot stronger?
Xavier has mindhax.
Translate that to the Reiatsu Crush which is soulhax.
Also, no, resistance quality isn't subjective at least in this site. We qualify some haxes and their respective resistances based on the number of people it can affect. So, as long as you resist soulhax in a magnitude similar to Bleach's soulhax, you're fine.
Please, stop this. If you aren't going to comment something about the versus don't reply. This is surely going to be closed because of the derailing and potential flamewar.
Would you say that Ginyu wins because he's a lot stronger?
Xavier has mindhax.
Translate that to the Reiatsu Crush which is soulhax.
Also, no, resistance quality isn't subjective at least in this site. We qualify some haxes and their respective resistances based on the number of people it can affect. So, as long as you resist soulhax in a magnitude similar to Bleach's soulhax, you're fine.
Please, stop this. If you aren't going to comment something about the versus don't reply. This is surely going to be closed because of the derailing and potential flamewar.
- 40,470
- 12,953
You really are a peach, my dude.
(Don't take that as any other way but a compliment. I meant that with no double meaning. Even ticked off I still have high respect for both you and IMade.)
(Don't take that as any other way but a compliment. I meant that with no double meaning. Even ticked off I still have high respect for both you and IMade.)
- 3,527
- 1,255
i never said that a AP stomp is better lmao, i was giving an example of using reitsu gg to win fights that they have no buisness winning
you decide if they have buiness or not winning fight now ?
not every verse is like dragon ball where stats are everything important in fights. Some verse , like bleach rely on both stats and hax to win , their passive hax is not resisted by a lot of mainstream verse so i get why people get salty but still , to say that just because someone have better stats they win the fight is really a bad mentality to have in versus thread with so many different verse
you decide if they have buiness or not winning fight now ?
not every verse is like dragon ball where stats are everything important in fights. Some verse , like bleach rely on both stats and hax to win , their passive hax is not resisted by a lot of mainstream verse so i get why people get salty but still , to say that just because someone have better stats they win the fight is really a bad mentality to have in versus thread with so many different verse
- 2,938
- 365
Even ideas like "You take leathal damage if you don't have Nen to protect you" is complete nonsense, because it acts like Chi and shit aren't similar enough in the basic concept to work, whilst simultaneously exploiting a mechanic of the universe akin to a law of physics in that world that other characters don't have the benefit of having, on top of that trait not even being a unique power they have, but a phenomenon that exists irrelevant to their choices. The problem I have isn't that this is hax, or that the characters I like don't have resistances to it, but that this conversation, which according to Cal isn't even objectively warranted because that thread, like far too many, had no official conclusions with a bunch of people being against the guy who's trying his best to weasel this rule in place— my problem is that it's exploiting a rule for one Verse that applies to everyone in that verse because those are the PHYSICS behind the situation, rather than doing the fair thing and recognizing that the physics of both worlds as it relates to their energies should Be preserved and acting for all parties to use, because it otherwise forces us to look for things that don't apply 1 to 1 and act like this AP law that happens to all Spirit Energy users of Verse A is now suddenly personal hax they have, despite all information in that verse likening it to Raw power and unique rules that apply to everyone in that verse than anyone else. If we equalize the energies to be the same, the universal rules have to come with it or be dropped, because otherwise it's not actual Equalization. It's not fair, and not because Goku loses, **** GOKU, but because you're using rules about a Verse's world as if they're unique powers rather than universal mechanics that would apply to everyone in Verse Equalization. It's why people with Spirit Energy based verses should be able to see the ghosts of Bleach, because in their own world, their spirit energies are basically the exact same, so they would work the exact same if we made the rules of both of their worlds apply.
Or does Kenpachi also have Attack Reflection? Since it's a rule in Bleach that lower Reiatsu AP makes the attacker take damage. Let's all go make everyone in Bleach have Attack Reflection thanks to Kenpachi's feat.
Which is it? Does everyone now have Attack Reflection that, despite it literally being based in AP has nothing to do with AP at all now? Does that mean everyone in Bleach has passive Attack Reflection? Or are we gonna be sensible and recognize that the attack reflection that happens when characters who are way weaker in Reiatsu Attack someone with super strong Reiatsu is a verse mechanic that we can let apply to everyone or ignore, because the only reason it happens isn't because of some unique power, but because of the rules of the verse being that way? You know, like how we give Souls humans from Verses that might not even have them or outright debunk the concept, just to make them vulnerable to Soul Hax? I'm done. Night.
Or does Kenpachi also have Attack Reflection? Since it's a rule in Bleach that lower Reiatsu AP makes the attacker take damage. Let's all go make everyone in Bleach have Attack Reflection thanks to Kenpachi's feat.
Which is it? Does everyone now have Attack Reflection that, despite it literally being based in AP has nothing to do with AP at all now? Does that mean everyone in Bleach has passive Attack Reflection? Or are we gonna be sensible and recognize that the attack reflection that happens when characters who are way weaker in Reiatsu Attack someone with super strong Reiatsu is a verse mechanic that we can let apply to everyone or ignore, because the only reason it happens isn't because of some unique power, but because of the rules of the verse being that way? You know, like how we give Souls humans from Verses that might not even have them or outright debunk the concept, just to make them vulnerable to Soul Hax? I'm done. Night.
- 8,160
- 2,190
who would win
A 10-A intangible rock monster with death manipulation or MUI Goku with Kaioken x 10000
At best this is an incon for Goku if it were a thing.
A 10-A intangible rock monster with death manipulation or MUI Goku with Kaioken x 10000
At best this is an incon for Goku if it were a thing.
- 2,097
- 578
i never said that a AP stomp is better lmao, i was giving an example of using reitsu gg to win fights that they have no buisness winning
you decide if they have buiness or not winning fight now ?
not every verse is like dragon ball where stats are everything important in fights. Some verse , like bleach rely on both stats and hax to win , their passive hax is not resisted by a lot of mainstream verse so i get why people get salty but still , to say that just because someone have better stats they win the fight is really a bad mentality to have in versus thread with so many different verse
im not saying better stats means a automatic win
and what i mean by no buisness winning a fight is like, mhs speed and building level shinigami no diffing a ftl large planet alien because soul crush gg
you decide if they have buiness or not winning fight now ?
not every verse is like dragon ball where stats are everything important in fights. Some verse , like bleach rely on both stats and hax to win , their passive hax is not resisted by a lot of mainstream verse so i get why people get salty but still , to say that just because someone have better stats they win the fight is really a bad mentality to have in versus thread with so many different verse
im not saying better stats means a automatic win
and what i mean by no buisness winning a fight is like, mhs speed and building level shinigami no diffing a ftl large planet alien because soul crush gg
- 1,167
- 976
Funny thread tbh. I don't see this much complaining with other verse with passive hax.
- 40,470
- 12,953
Oh trust me I complain about those too
- 6,253
- 2,677
you and me both
- Status
