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Shinza banshou discussion thread~Revival~

Infera28 said:
Taikyoku's incomprehensibility is true, but there were people like Ren and Reinhard in verse who could approach God and even become God without only using negation. There were people like Ryuusui Mikadou, Sirius and Kaikhosru who knew the characteristics of God and therefore Sirius and Kaikhosru tried to reject them and become immutable or unchanging, of course, all of them were extremely powerful and unnatural people. I don't have a problem with Taikyoku being incomprehensible in Shinza, I meant that it was never mentioned in Shinza that one can approach God only through negation and there is something like Cataphatic theology, which believes that one can approach God only by being similar to God, it is not like that the only possible way to approach God or Para Brahman is through Apophatic theology. In fact, the characteristics of Mercurius, Ren and Reinhard were a combination of Apophatic theology and Cataphatic theology, so it is more logical to say that Shinza uses both. Contradiction or paradox was one of the most important parts of Dies Irae.
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Then I guess it's not truely Apophatic. Seems like a mix of several theologies

The wiki doesn't really mention how we treat apophatic entities on the wiki. How can you fight something you cannot understand/conceptualize?
 
I seem to have missed how Apophatic Theology can be used to grant a tier on the wiki

Simply not being able to be understood or simply being incomprehensible won't give you anything, you need to prove such entity is beyond human conceptualization, basically anything human language can describe will fall short of how great it truly is.
 
Yemma670 said:
I seem to have missed how Apophatic Theology can be used to grant a tier on the wiki

Simply not being able to be understood or simply being incomprehensible won't give you anything, you need to prove such entity is beyond human conceptualization, basically anything human language can describe will fall short of how great it truly is.
Click to expand...
The throne is a space of nothingness that cannot be described by any language, and it is beyond infinite concepts no matterhow simple or complex.
 
Ultra_instinct_issei said:
The throne is a space of nothingness that cannot be described by any language, and it is beyond infinite concepts no matterhow simple or complex.
Click to expand...
Yemma670 said:
I seem to have missed how Apophatic Theology can be used to grant a tier on the wiki

Simply not being able to be understood or simply being incomprehensible won't give you anything, you need to prove such entity is beyond human conceptualization, basically anything human language can describe will fall short of how great it truly is.
Click to expand...
Even then i personally think negative theology is a big NLF. I personally think we should give verses tier based on their cosmology alone rather then some vague philosophy .
 
Infera28 said:
tons of problems is not an argument, name those problems. I am aware of all those so called problems and they aren't that big.
Click to expand...
Dunno if I can agree with this. The verse being untranslated and nearly nobody reading the damn thing seems like a major problem. And considering that it's pretty difficult to even access Paradise Lost, a fairly important work in the series, I think that constitutes a major problem with having profiles of said verse on the wiki. That being said, I have nothing against making profiles for the verse. But I do think it being untranslated is an issue, especially if nearly nobody has read it.

The dies irae profiles were pretty solid, but if people are willing to replay the game and have some changes they could add, that would be great. The big issue comes with the K3 profiles. And the tiers for the gods is pretty controvertial. I think 1B or Low 1C is a good place to start before upgrades or downgrades
 
Infera28 said:
Taikyoku's incomprehensibility is true, but there were people like Ren and Reinhard in verse who could approach God and even become God without only using negation. There were people like Ryuusui Mikadou, Sirius and Kaikhosru who knew the characteristics of God and therefore Sirius and Kaikhosru tried to reject them and become immutable or unchanging, of course, all of them were extremely powerful and unnatural people. I don't have a problem with Taikyoku being incomprehensible in Shinza, I meant that it was never mentioned in Shinza that one can approach God only through negation and there is something like Cataphatic theology, which believes that one can approach God only by being similar to God, it is not like that the only possible way to approach God or Para Brahman is through Apophatic theology. In fact, the characteristics of Mercurius, Ren and Reinhard were a combination of Apophatic theology and Cataphatic theology, so it is more logical to say that Shinza uses both. Contradiction or paradox was one of the most important parts of Dies Irae.
Click to expand...
What do you mean by they could become God through negation? Neither Ren nor Reinhard are normal human beings, and were already destined to become Gods. Ryuusui already had Taikyoku from the start and just wasn't aware of it, so idk if that's a valid point.
 
Eh, fair.

And as I've previously stated, I have complete access to all translated routes of Dies Irae, so if the Tier 1 ratings are sorted out, I can very much handle making/helping make those profiles with all the relevant information and abilities.
 
azontr said:
Eh, fair.

And as I've previously stated, I have complete access to all translated routes of Dies Irae, so if the Tier 1 ratings are sorted out, I can very much handle making/helping make those profiles with all the relevant information and abilities.
Click to expand...
As at last week, DI and KKK profiles are done and ready (important DI profiles anyway)
Just the rest of the verse and general cosmology left now

I got only one head, and I still need to read KKK again to see some stuffs
 
Tarang123 said:
The dies irae profiles were pretty solid, but if people are willing to replay the game and have some changes they could add, that would be great. The big issue comes with the K3 profiles. And the tiers for the gods is pretty controvertial. I think 1B or Low 1C is a good place to start before upgrades or downgrades
Click to expand...
I agree, but as you said the Dies Irae profiles were very good, I've been re-reading some parts of the story recently to find the scans and context and I can confirm that, although, I kinda believe that all Dies Irae characters should have conceptual manip and physics manip

Tarang123 said:
That's just flowery language for Eleonore being powerful. The Throne one seems more legit. But that's just my take on it
Click to expand...
It was a joke lol

Tarang123 said:
What do you mean by they could become God through negation? Neither Ren nor Reinhard are normal human beings, and were already destined to become Gods. Ryuusui already had Taikyoku from the start and just wasn't aware of it, so idk if that's a valid point.
Click to expand...
I did not say such a thing. I said that the only way to become a god in Shinza Banshou is not negation
 
Infera28 said:
I agree, but as you said the Dies Irae profiles were very good, I've been re-reading some parts of the story recently to find the scans and context and I can confirm that, although, I kinda believe that all Dies Irae characters should have conceptual manip and physics manip
Click to expand...
Like I said, we can make CRTs to fix things that can or should be fixed. But I think that if we're to make the profiles again, finding the old DI profiles is a good place to start
 
  1. 神咒神威神楽における第三天は哲学者めいた若い男として描かれる。覇吐は超絶難解な計算を永遠に一人でやりながら苦にも思っていない、素で遊びがないという印象を受けた。 数式の具現であり全てが論理的。正直苦手、あまり関わり合いたいとは思わないとのこと。 The third heaven in the Kajiri Kamui Kagura is depicted as a young man who looks like a philosopher. He was under the impression that there was no play in the bare minimum, that Habaki was not even bothered while performing exceedingly complex mathematical calculations forever by himself. An embodiment of a mathematical formulary, where everything is linear. To be honest, he's not very good at it and doesn't really want to get involved. he embodies the concept of mathematic,bringing asw it into the multiverse(from nerose’s page of atwiki) 超絶難解な計算を、永遠に一人でやりながら苦にも思っていないような印象を受ける。 The impression I get from this man is that he doesn't even struggle while performing these extremely complicated ー transcendent mathematical calculations forever alone.




  2. [9:36 PM]
    「だがその徹底した潔さゆえ、この治世に人間性は存在しない。完璧な管理社会であり、数理的な整然さのみが満ちている」 "But because of its utter cleanliness, there is no humanity in this reign. It is a society of perfect control, full only of mathematical order."
  3. [9:36 PM]
    まるで機械のごとく。そう締め括られている通り、この座に人らしさは存在しない。数式の具現めいた男だから、全部が論理的なのだ。一足す一は四とか五とか、そういう答えを認めない。 It's like a machine. As it concludes, there is no humanity in this seat. He is a man who is the very embodiment of mathematical formulas ー or rather, a totality of logic on a mathematical level, so everything is calculated accordingly. He does not accept answers such as "one plus one equals four or five."




  4. [9:36 PM]
    裁きに一切の容赦はなく、人間性ごと消え去るまで紫織を貢り、貢り尽くす。数理の神が施す法は一か零で、かもしれないという可能性など入り込まない。 English: English: There is no mercy in his judgment, and he shall tribute to Shiori until his entire humanity is gone. The laws applied by the god of mathematics are either one or zero, and the possibility that they might be one or zero does not enter into consideration.

    1. for all the time of his throne he made math formulas each one more complex and transcendental to the previous, we also can say that since he painted infinite times his own throne,he also made infinite transcendental formulas that stacks upon the previous




    2. [9:41 PM]
      神咒神威神楽における第三天は哲学者めいた若い男として描かれる。覇吐は超絶難解な計算を永遠に一人でやりながら苦にも思っていない、素で遊びがないという印象を受けた。 数式の具現であり全てが論理的。正直苦手、あまり関わり合いたいとは思わないとのこと。
 
If the verse ever came back will it be tier 1-A?


also I probably understand that their the bad guys but I’m still a little unsettled that the nazi’s in this series are a little bit humanized. (I probably said this before but still)
 
Eh, many stories humanize the "bad guys" a lot, it makes the character more understandable and potentially relatable disregarding the nazi aspect. Also the verse should be bare minimum 1-B
 
Pokemonfan807 said:
If the verse ever came back will it be tier 1-A?
Click to expand...
Yes, they will be
Pokemonfan807 said:
also I probably understand that their the bad guys but I’m still a little unsettled that the nazi’s in this series are a little bit humanized. (I probably said this before but still)
Click to expand...
Uhhm you really should read Dies Irae, only one of the LDO is really a Nazi, the rest simply dont care and even kills Nazis even though they are in the same army
 
Pain_to12 said:
Yes, they will be

Uhhm you really should read Dies Irae, only one of the LDO is really a Nazi, the rest simply dont care and even kills Nazis even though they are in the same army
Click to expand...

yeah I probably remember that

but yeah Reinhard does make me a little unsettled. The rest I’m fine/I agree with you but this guy was a real dude who did lots of very disturbing things.
 
The LDO are Nazis, as in, most of them come from Germany and served in World War 2. But they don't actually follow Nazism or shit like that, though most of them are actually pretty racist. (I.E. Wilhelm hates Asians)
 
azontr said:
The LDO are Nazis, as in, most of them come from Germany and served in World War 2. But they don't actually follow Nazism or shit like that, though most of them are actually pretty racist. (I.E. Wilhelm hates Asians)
Click to expand...

Is this a way of saying, your going to love beating the shit out of them?
 
azontr said:
The LDO are Nazis, as in, most of them come from Germany and served in World War 2. But they don't actually follow Nazism or shit like that, though most of them are actually pretty racist. (I.E. Wilhelm hates Asians)
Click to expand...
I have a question to ask you. Are you cool with answering it?
 
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