Shinza banshou discussion thread~Revival~

[Infera28]

The only problem you remember does not mean that’s the only problem that exists
You have only read DI so well what can I say.
There are tons of problem

tons of problems is not an argument, name those problems. I am aware of all those so called problems and they aren't that big.

Whatabousim is not an argument and I don’t care about other verses

Yes, this is an argument, many other verses had similar problems and they were fixed, it will give you a clue that Shinza's problems could have been fixed too.

If I want to give an example again, it was found several times that most of the information in Kengan and Baki were wrong, but we fixed them. When you can fix something, you don't need to shoot it with a shotgun and destroy it.

We already did, that’s why the verse was deleted
You feel like it should not have been deleted, make a CRT
Do make sure you send its link to my wall or here I’d see it

If you think there is something in Avesta, Paradise Lost or anything else that shows our ratings were wrong, you should prove it, just because a few works were not translated does not mean that most of Shinza's information and ratings are wrong. We cannot assume that the information is wrong because some verses are not translated.

Anyway, I'll let you know if I make a CRT but first, I would like to know the opinion of others, the only person who disagreed so far was you.

 

[Infera28]

Instead of doing a CRT to bring back the old profiles I'd rather make entirely new profiles that are worked gradually over time, which from what I know, is currently being done.

I feel that this project will never be finished or it will take years, why not bring back the old profiles and modify them when the project is complete? Of course, if the information obtained from this project is correct.

 

[azontr]

I feel that this project will never be finished or it will take years, why not bring back the old profiles and modify them when the project is complete? Of course, if the information obtained from this project is correct.

I guess I'd personally just rather profiles with more accurate information being released than having to fix the old profiles which were deleted. Makes sure no more controversy has to go on. I'm not working on the reworks, though, so I have no say in this.

 

[PrinceofPein]

tons of problems is not an argument, name those problems. I am aware of all those so called problems and they aren't that big.

Having wrong ratings and misinformation
And nobody to help gate keep the verses is enough for a verse to be deleted.

Well I cannot be bothered to explain it over and over again, unless this is a CRT

Yes, this is an argument, many other verses had similar problems and they were fixed, it will give you a clue that Shinza's problems could have been fixed too.

Yes many verse had and were fixed so let Shinza be fixed too, pretty simple

The clause of the deletion was delete them all start all over again.

If I want to give an example again, it was found several times that most of the information in Kengan and Baki were wrong, but we fixed them. When you can fix something, you don't need to shoot it with a shotgun and destroy it.

Kengen and Baki does not even compare to Shinza in any form of the misinformation
Again whatabousim

If you think there is something in Avesta, Paradise Lost or anything else that shows our ratings were wrong, you should prove it, just because a few works were not translated does not mean that most of Shinza's information and ratings are wrong. We cannot assume that the information is wrong because some verses are not translated.

There is ******* assumption of wrong information, it was proven that the information were wrong and which was why it was deleted.

Anyway, I'll let you know if I make a CRT but first, I would like to know the opinion of others, the only person who disagreed so far was you.

So far the most knowledgeable person I’ve seen here replying you is me
So far the only person who is working on the profile is me.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I guess I'd personally just rather profiles with more accurate information being released than having to fix the old profiles which were deleted. Makes sure no more controversy has to go on. I'm not working on the reworks, though, so I have no say in this.

The goal was simple start from the scratch
Share the works into pieces and give each one to knowledgeable members and make cosmology blog for each then find a confluence for each entries cosmology and combine it into one
DI blog is done
KKK blog is done
PL is done, although I won’t say this, as there are still lots of things missing
I don’t know how far Avesta is but the person working on it has the scans
And Aditya is all coming along and it is likely the one continuity that will decide the ratings of the verse, as it happened in a world before the throne existed and would explain how the throne came to be in details.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Guess my take on Masada fandom being elitist isn't wrong at all

 

[azontr]

Guess my take on Masada fandom being elitist isn't wrong at all

Be a dickwad somewhere else if your not here to discuss the series

 

[Infera28]

I guess I'd personally just rather profiles with more accurate information being released than having to fix the old profiles which were deleted. Makes sure no more controversy has to go on. I'm not working on the reworks, though, so I have no say in this.

What if we wait for years for this project, which is not even known who is working on it, and in the end it becomes clear that the new profiles have even more flaws than the previous profiles? At least dozens of people had worked on the previous profiles and they were revised over the years, they were more reliable.

Anyway, if everyone wants to wait for years to finish a project that we are not even sure if it is good, then I have nothing to say.

Having wrong ratings and misinformation
And nobody to help gate keep the verses is enough for a verse to be deleted.

Well I cannot be bothered to explain unless this is a CRT

If you don't want to explain here, then don't debate here. you talk as if I wasn't a member of vsbattles Shinza's community years before you, I know better than you about all the problems you say and I know that all of them can be fixed.

Last time I checked, more than five people participated and discussed in my revision thread, even some managers participated and only did not comment because they did not know our conclusion and you delayed us for several weeks and in the end you came back with messy information.

Yes many verse had and were fixed so let Shinza be fixed too, pretty simple

The clause of the deletion was delete them all start all over again.

Where is this fix? Deleting and recreating from scratch is not a fix. How do we even know that your project will be completed and the information will be correct? Do you have a habit of delaying others for a long time? The logical way is to restore profiles and then if your project information is correct, you can create a CRT and change the profiles. No one is going to wait for you for years. No need to cry, as I said, if your project information is correct, we can revise the profiles. At the moment, we cannot "imagine" Your project is good and wait.

Kengen and Baki does not even compare to Shinza in any form of the misinformation
Again whatabousim

It does not change my claim, even a verse with a lot of misinformation can be corrected and there is no need to delete it.

There is ******* assumption of wrong information, it was proven that the information were wrong and which was why it was deleted.

I read your thread and nothing was proven. If you think that a character rating is wrong because of Avesta, prove it here.

So far the most knowledgeable person I’ve seen here is me
So far the only person who is working on the profile is me.

You gave yourself a very interesting title, on what basis are you most knowleageable? last time I remember you couldn't disprove Yuri and Tarang in any argument.

 

[azontr]

What if we wait for years for this project, which is not even known who is working on it, and in the end it becomes clear that the new profiles have even more flaws than the previous profiles? At least dozens of people had worked on the previous profiles and they were revised over the years, they were more reliable.

Anyway, if everyone wants to wait for years to finish a project that we are not even sure if it is good, then I have nothing to say.

Who cares how long it takes if at the end we get accurate ratings?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Guess my take on Masada fandom being elitist isn't wrong at all

Welp

 

[PrinceofPein]

You gave yourself a very interesting title, on what basis are you most knowleageable? last time I remember you couldn't disprove Yuri and Tarang in any argument.

Last I checked on discord Yuri was shown why he was wrong and pretty sure my argument was right for the 1-A downgrade as it was still the same
Crazy things mistranslation does to a verse
“24 dimensioned shield” and “24 layered shield”
Also, Last I checked I can’t remember arguing with Tarang on any major stuff, just abilities.

Well go ahead and make a CRT tho

 

[Infera28]

Who cares how long it takes if at the end we get accurate ratings?

How do we know that the new profiles are better than the profiles that were revised for years and even those who could read japanese played a role in making and revising them? It's like telling someone not to work for years so that one day you might win the lottery. Also only one person is working on this project and it may never be finished, we have to wait years for something that is not reliable?

Anyway, if this is everyone's wish, then I don't think I will make a CRT.

 

[azontr]

How do we know that the new profiles are better than the profiles that were revised for years and even those who could read japanese played a role in making and revising them? It's like telling someone not to work for years so that one day you might win the lottery. Also only one person is working on this project and it may never be finished, we have to wait years for something that is not reliable?

Anyway, if this is everyone's wish, then I don't think I will make a CRT.

Regardless of that, it'd be best to avoid future controversies by just sending out profiles that are fully fleshed out in the beginning, so we don't have to go through long, arduous threads that have been made on Shinza in the past.

 

[PrinceofPein]

messy information

Accurate*** just because you don’t agree with it does not really make it less true.
If you thought it was messy why did you not tackle it on the thread??

What if we wait for years for this project, which is not even known who is working on it, and in the end it becomes clear that the new profiles have even more flaws than the previous profiles? At least dozens of people had worked on the previous profiles and they were revised over the years, they were more reliable.

Anyway, if everyone wants to wait for years to finish a project that we are not even sure if it is good, then I have nothing to say.

What if it does not take years and just a year??

If they were reliable, the people who made the pages and revised it will not want it to be deleted. And their reasons were pretty much the same, too many misinformation.

Also only one person is working on this project

One person??
Yuri
Tarang
Catzlaflame
Chasikeleen
Me
And two guys not on this wiki

Really one?? When did I say it was just me?

Given that the majority is been done by
Tarang, chasi, catz and me
And the rest are just there to help cross check when needed

 

[Infera28]

Accurate***

They were terrible.

What if it does not take years and just a year?? What if what ifs

If they were reliable, the people who made the pages will not want it to be deleted.

I never said that they were completely reliable, but at least they were more reliable than what has not yet been completed and is in an cloud of ambiguity, especially since you said that the only person who works on profiles is yourself.

One person??

Read your message

So far the only person who is working on the profile is me.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Read your message

Context is very very important
In the course of your message the only people who have agreed to them coming back are not working on the profiles currently

 

[Infera28]

Context is very very important
In the course of your message the only people who have agreed to them coming back are not working on the profiles currently

What you said does not invalidate other people's votes, but if the people you said are really working on profiles, then I will wait.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Last I checked on discord Yuri was shown why he was wrong and pretty sure my argument was right for the 1-A downgrade as it was still the same
Crazy things mistranslation does to a verse
“24 dimensioned shield” and “24 layered shield”
Also, Last I checked I can’t remember arguing with Tarang on any major stuff, just abilities.

Well go ahead and make a CRT tho

wait, you guys have debunked yuri?

 

[Infera28]

What if it does not take years and just a year??

If they were reliable, the people who made the pages and revised it will not want it to be deleted. And their reasons were pretty much the same, too many misinformation.

I might win the lottery in one month or maybe in 90 years. As I said, you cannot wait for something that has no specific time and may never happen.

But if the people you mentioned really work on the profiles, then I will wait.

Last I checked on discord Yuri was shown why he was wrong and pretty sure my argument was right for the 1-A downgrade as it was still the same
Crazy things mistranslation does to a verse
“24 dimensioned shield” and “24 layered shield”
Also, Last I checked I can’t remember arguing with Tarang on any major stuff, just abilities.

Well go ahead and make a CRT tho

I am not omniscient, so I don't know what happened in discord, but I will be happy if Yuri confirms what you said. What you said about Tarang does not refute my claim.

However, Yuri's only reason for downgrade was not Madara's barrier. I wonder if you managed to debunk other reasons or not.

 

[PrinceofPein]

wait, you guys have debunked yuri?

On the barriers, he at least conceded and it was a honest mistake

However, Yuri's only reason for downgrade was not Madara's barrier. I wonder if you managed to debunk other reasons or not.

I’m pretty sure that was one of the major reason and later on became the backbone of the downgrade thread.

Remove the 24-D shenanigans and tell me the other reasons

Anyway with new info, they have a solid new tiers especially when just a single statement from Avesta qualifies for 1-A, added with the cosmology of PL

 

[Infera28]

Also, it's better to keep the members of this thread informed about some events, so Shinza fans will be happy and no one will complain.

 

[Infera28]

I’m pretty sure that was one of the major reason and later on became the backbone of the downgrade thread.

Remove the 24-D shenanigans and tell me the other reasons

Anyway with new info, they have a solid new tiers especially when just a single statement from Avesta qualifies for 1-A, added with the cosmology of PL

He also said that there was time in the Singularity and that the Singularity was made up of multiple dimensions, but I would be happy to have it debunked. Of course, if I tell the truth, I also suspected barrier because barrier's structure and function was not like dimensional wall, it was strengthened by magic and also moved and removed damage. It was more like a smurf hax.

What is 1-A scaling or statement? can you explain it?

 

[PrinceofPein]

He also said that there was time in the Singularity

There are multiple statements and saying of “time does not exist here” and in reference to the singularity and the throne.
With the new wiki tiering time can exists even in tier 0 layers

and that the Singularity was made up of multiple dimensions,

Yes indeed it is made up of multiple layers, but whether the layers hold ontological difference is something We don’t know although they were hinted to be so

but I would be happy to have it debunked. Of course, if I tell the truth, I also suspected barrier because barrier's structure and function was not like dimensional wall, it was strengthened by magic and also moved and removed damage. It was more like a smurf hax.

It’s basically this, from a Japanese speaker from the discord @Chasekilleen

the barrier was manifested from the palms of his hand 掌にて具現した
in the gaps of space-time 時空の暇
による means "due to/because of"
障壁 means barrier

But because it sounds too stiff in English. I think it should be "Yakou elegantly lifted his hand above his head, through the gaps of spacetime, the barrier manifested from the palm of his hand."

Hey guys. So I found the scan that Yuri was referring to. The scan doesn't say that the barrier has space-time. It says that he deployed in the gaps of space-time itself.
Yes, the translation is incorrect. 時空の暇による障壁 = In the gaps of space-time itself. It doesn't say it has space nor time. (Only MTL fails to pick up 時空の暇)

This is the same as when he deployed it against Morei.
母禮の炎は、宙にある大気、僅かな塵芥、更には空間そのものさえも消滅してのけるので、空間すら焼き尽くすというのなら、その空間そのものに次元の断層を生み出して防御した。
Because Morei's flames can burn space itself, and hence he deployed the 次元の断層 (Dimensional dislocation) within the space itself.

So yeah it’s pretty much shields layered on each other to block attacks

What is 1-A scaling or statement? can you explain it?

“Black and White, Blue and Red, Light and Darkness, Obverse and Reverse. Every single conceiveable, Dualistic, conflicting, rivalring phenomena, concepts, that exist within this world, all without exception existed here. Flowing, in continous change, a Great Mandala in the shape of a designed pattern, changing in a kaleidoscope like form while continuing to revolve. Infinite colours overflowed, and nevertheless, there was not a single independent thing here. They all have an enemy (furigana: couple), that always certain, under the auspices of the absolute Law. Quite like a microcosm of their universe. An embodiment of the world of Dualism, woven in textile of trascendent scope.”

 

[Infera28]

well damn It seems that the barrier had only 24 layers not dimensions.

“Black and White, Blue and Red, Light and Darkness, Obverse and Reverse. Every single conceiveable, Dualistic, conflicting, rivalring phenomena, concepts, that exist within this world, all without exception existed here. Flowing, in continous change, a Great Mandala in the shape of a designed pattern, changing in a kaleidoscope like form while continuing to revolve. Infinite colours overflowed, and nevertheless, there was not a single independent thing here. They all have an enemy (furigana: couple), that always certain, under the auspices of the absolute Law. Quite like a microcosm of their universe. An embodiment of the world of Dualism, woven in textile of trascendent scope.”

I knew that all concepts and dualities are determined by Mithra's law or exist in Mithra's Mandala, the problem is that I don't know how to prove that Mithra transcends them.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I knew that all concepts and dualities are determined by Mithra's law or exist in Mithra's Mandala, the problem is that I don't know how to prove that Mithra transcends them.

In Avesta there are statements that she transcends everything below the throne.

But this is where the confluence of each entry cosmology come in
In KKK and DI we have statements of the throne being above all concepts and the source of all concepts respectively.

 

[Infera28]

In Avesta there are statements that she transcends everything below the throne.

But this is where the confluence of each entry cosmology come in
In KKK and DI we have statements of the throne being above all concepts and the source of all concepts respectively.

There is no problem because you can be the source of something and transcend it too. Can you send those Avesta statements?

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Also, how is transcending duality is 1-A? Also it seems to be conceptual level

 

[PrinceofPein]

There is no problem because you can be the source of something and transcend it too. Can you send those Avesta statements?

I will have to ask
When he sends it, I’d send it here

 

[Infera28]

Also, how is transcending duality is 1-A? Also it seems to be conceptual level

I don't think that with the strictness of giving 1-A in wiki, they will accept that scaling as 1-A

 

[Infera28]

We also need the context of these scans because Yuri believed that they are about a technique and had nothing to do with Taikyoku.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I don't think that with the strictness of giving 1-A in wiki, they will accept that scaling as 1-A

There are other reasons, that’s not the only one, it is just a supporting feat

But majorly we want to wait for Aditya to at least go a bit in before making a decision as Aditya can mess everything up depending on how the throne was created

 

[PrinceofPein]

We also need the context of these scans because Yuri believed that they are about a technique and had nothing to do with Taikyoku.

Oh they are actually about taikyoku not a technique
Given that it also spoke about Hajun third eye I can see what he is saying but
That clearly said “Taiji”

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Be a dickwad somewhere else if your not here to discuss the series

But joke aside, my comment above wasn't mean to be taken seriously as i used the strip line lel

 

[Ningenron]

Ameijingu

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

I don't think that with the strictness of giving 1-A in wiki, they will accept that scaling as 1-A

Do you think the throne can go by apophatic theology? We where told several times that the singularity is unreachable to humans and is utterly incomprehensible . And the throne is a space of nothingness that cannot be described by any language and is beyond all duality . Not to mention the gods seemed to be inspired by bramhan/atman in hinduism, who transcends all conceptualizations and descriptions.

 

[Infera28]

Do you think the throne can go by apophatic theology?

As far as I understand, in Apophatic theology, God is known as absolute good and does not have some characteristics, but theology of Shinza Banshou is Panentheism because everything is a part of God and both positive and negative are determined by God's law, so God is not absolute good and It has all the characteristics, that's why the characters try to reject the whole world and become immutable. Also, people like Reinhard or Ren were like God, but still managed to get close to God and become God.

We where told several times that the singularity is unreachable to humans and is utterly incomprehensible . And the throne is a space of nothingness that cannot be described by any language and is beyond all duality . Not to mention the gods seemed to be inspired by bramhan/atman in hinduism, who transcends all conceptualizations and descriptions.

Being incomprehensible in vsbattles is not enough to be 1-A. Regarding Atman/Brahman, I also tried to prove in downgrade thread that Taikyoku is 1-A through religion, but they refused. We cannot use external sources and must prove that Taikyoku is 1-A in Shinza itself. Of course, the opinions regarding Brahman/Atman are also different in the philosophical schools of Hinduism, so we have to prove that Brahman/Atman in Shinza are similar to Advaita Vedanta school, although I personally do not see much similarity between Shinza and it.

 

[Sniper670]

As far as I understand, in Apophatic theology, God is known as absolute good and does not have some characteristics, but theology of Shinza Banshou is Panentheism because everything is a part of God and both positive and negative are determined by God's law, so God is not absolute good and It has all the characteristics, that's why the characters try to reject the whole world and become immutable. Also, people like Reinhard or Ren were like God, but still managed to get close to God and become God.

Iirc The Singularity is basically Taiji. So imma go ahead to explain.

Before creation is an entity without attributes(Taiji) . It is from that attributeless state that attributes come to be.
To sum it up, Taiji itself cannot be described with words due to being beyond the dualistic nature of human mind. Creation becomes extension of it but thats that. That still doesn't mean you can describe Taiji. It still retains its nature

It's just like Para Brahma, the fact that all creation is part of it doesn't mean it loses its attributeless nature.

There's no conceptualization of the human mind that can describe it, because trying to describe it means trying to establish a distinction, of which it's not. Only way to describe it is by negation(Apophetism)

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Iirc The Singularity is basically Taiji. So imma go ahead to explain.

Before creation is an entity without attributes(Taiji) . It is from that attributeless state that attributes come to be.
To sum it up, Taiji itself cannot be described with words due to being beyond the dualistic nature of human mind. Creation becomes extension of it but thats that. That still doesn't mean you can describe Taiji. It still retains its nature

It's just like Para Brahma, the fact that all creation is part of it doesn't mean it loses its attributeless nature.

There's no conceptualization of the human mind that can describe it, because trying to describe it means trying to establish a distinction, of which it's not. Only way to describe it is by negation(Apophetism)

IS the origin Coordinate Wuji then?

 

[Infera28]

Iirc The Singularity is basically Taiji. So imma go ahead to explain.

Before creation is an entity without attributes(Taiji) . It is from that attributeless state that attributes come to be.
To sum it up, Taiji itself cannot be described with words due to being beyond the dualistic nature of human mind. Creation becomes extension of it but thats that. That still doesn't mean you can describe Taiji. It still retains its nature

It's just like Para Brahma, the fact that all creation is part of it doesn't mean it loses its attributeless nature.

There's no conceptualization of the human mind that can describe it, because trying to describe it means trying to establish a distinction, of which it's not. Only way to describe it is by negation(Apophetism)

Taikyoku's incomprehensibility is true, but there were people like Ren and Reinhard in verse who could approach God and even become God without only using negation. There were people like Ryuusui Mikadou, Sirius and Kaikhosru who knew the characteristics of God and therefore Sirius and Kaikhosru tried to reject them and become immutable or unchanging, of course, all of them were extremely powerful and unnatural people. I don't have a problem with Taikyoku being incomprehensible in Shinza, I meant that it was never mentioned in Shinza that one can approach God only through negation and there is something like Cataphatic theology, which believes that one can approach God only by being similar to God, it is not like that the only possible way to approach God or Para Brahman is through Apophatic theology. In fact, the characteristics of Mercurius, Ren and Reinhard were a combination of Apophatic theology and Cataphatic theology, so it is more logical to say that Shinza uses both. Contradiction or paradox was one of the most important parts of Dies Irae.

 

[Infera28]

God level protection / blessing for Reinhard and Shirou