Shin Megami Tensei CRT: Four Devas Downgrade

[Yvel_Atsly]

What does Jikoku being beaten by a girl who got possesed by a powerful have to do with the Barrier not being AP? And not every Expanse has to tbe the exact same. (although still similar)The Godess of Tokyo created the Expanse in SMT IV and became the Monochrome Forest due to humanity's endless despair of living in YHVH's universe but the Expanse dosen't appear in this fashion in any other game besides SMT IV Apocalypse. Hazama divides the Expanse into different like 8 different sectors in If... well Devil Survivor is like a massive place of chaos and stuff. Considering how Expanse can vary from multiverse to multiverse depending on the game of course there would be more than one of them

 

[MagiSinbad]

It has been too long since the last time i visit this franchise. So i could misremember stuffs in my next lines.
But let just say, i'm not against what you say. Just genuiely curious on the multiple Expanse subject.
iirc, Monochrome Forest isnt the entirety of Expanse but rather just a single realm of it. The Expanse by itself is a massive realm of chaos of humanities observation and everchanging, so it isnt really strange if the Expanse appear to be different from setting to setting.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Well since we're questioning may i pleask ask what leads you to believe the Monochrome Forest is only "a single realm" of the Expanse?

 

[MagiSinbad]

Blurry memories, i suppose. If i'm wrong then feel free to correct me.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

I'll ask another question since being on the same page in this kind of discussion is vital: By single realm are you referring to the fact the Expanse is comprised of multiple spaces like what's showcased in SMT II (and If..) or do you mean like it's a single realm cause the Monochrome Forest only showed relation to one universe or something?

 

[MagiSinbad]

Let move to your wall since we are only derailing at this point (This revision is about the Devas, and we are talking about the Expanse as a cosmology)

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

You're not neccesarily wrong but the Expanse relation to the cosmology and stuff is one of the reason why the board maker disagrees with the Deva scaling. But you can still move to my wall if you want

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

All the argument about the barrier is irrelevant since it's just stopping the Demon World from touching a single universe.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Saying it the barrier affects only a single universe in contention to say it has x power level an argument about the barrier in and of itself

 

[Ionliosite]

Saying it the barrier affects only a single universe in contention to say it has x power level an argument about the barrier in and of itself

Could you reword this in a proper explanation? Because what I get from this is: Saying it affects a single universe is contradicted by saying it has x power level. And I severely doubt that's your argument since it doesn't even make sense, so please explain it properly.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

He's saying the arguing about the barrier is irrelevant and was telling him he just made an argument about in the barrier in the same sentence.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the summarised staff conclusions here?

 

[Ionliosite]

Well, Matt, Amelia and AKM agreed with the downgrade, and Elizhaa is neutral but doesn't oppose it. Only other staff who commented was you.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I trust their senses of judgement, so you can probably apply this then.

However @Yvel_Atsly is currently going around and upgrading SMT pages to Low 1-C, so I am here informing him about your current contrary revision.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, as usual, please remember to carefully read through and follow the instructions in our Common Editing Mistakes page, so no badly structured edits are made, and extensive cleanup work will not be necessary.

If you change the statistics for any characters, also remember to update the tier categories at the bottoms of the profile pages.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Can i at least ask what other SMT knowledgables think?

 

[Ionliosite]

I do want more input on something else: The Archangels. After looking for any kind of scaling, I didn't find anything that puts them above Low 2-C, so I'm unsure if that means Archangel level people are also to be downgraded to Low 2-C or if they have any scaling that would put them back at 2-A.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew_Schroeder @Edwellken @CrimsonStarFallen @Ultima_Reality @Solacis @Yobo_Blue

Are you willing and able to help Ionliosite with evaluating this?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

A bit busy IRL, but I do agree with the issue Yvel put out, namely that Matt can’t say the barrier is irrelevant to the discussion considering he’s made important arguments about him itself, that’s inherently a major part of the disc

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

I just mainly mean more thoughts of the Deva's scaling to the Expanse to a degree and all but yeah

 

[Elizhaa]

Angels are accepted as 2-A from powerscaling as stronger than characters like Ouroboros, from this thread.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Angels are accepted as 2-A from powerscaling as stronger than characters like Ouroboros, from this thread.

Ouroboros was suppsoed to be downgraded to Low 2C. Reaching higher tiers through infinite multipliers is not accepted

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

I mean she's the literal concept of infinity and eternity but sure

 

[Edwellken]

Since I was called here

I'm generally busy with school, similar to Yobo. Also I should probably be removed from the SMT knowledgeables since my memory of it is basically nonexistent at this point.

 

[Ionliosite]

Angels are accepted as 2-A from powerscaling as stronger than characters like Ouroboros, from this thread.

Yeah, Ouroboros is inapplicable because of it being an outdated reasoning (multipliers on Tier 2 don't make you jump tiers, which is her case, infinite x Low 2-C = 2-A), so she'll be "At least Low 2-C" due to that. Any other scaling for the Archangels other than that? Because otherwise, I'm afraid they'll end up At least Low 2-C even when I don't like how low that is.

 

[Elizhaa]

At least Low 2-C downgrade seems fine.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

See this is why we need a dedicated SMT Scaling thread because a lot of demons are just question mark.

 

[Antvasima]

Currently the is a half-finished Low 1-C revision in the SMT pages, which makes them all look incoherent/contradictory, so I hope that a more reliable revision can be applied soon.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Were people already hastily updating profiles? If so that is awful.

 

[Antvasima]

No. It was due to a previous accepted revision thread.

 

[Ionliosite]

Were people already hastily updating profiles? If so that is awful.

Yes, they were being updated based on the Expanse upgrade.

Currently the is a half-finished Low 1-C revision in the SMT pages, which makes them all look incoherent/contradictory, so I hope that a more reliable revision can be applied soon.

The reason I haven't been able to finish the revision is because I can't find a scaling for the Archangels and those who scale to them, which means I'm just waiting for someone to clarify their scaling, since otherwise they'll go down to "At least Low 2-C" as Elizhaa just said.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes, they were being updated based on the Expanse upgrade.

Cringe. We said in the other thread (Or at least I said) that updates should have waited.

I can't find a scaling for the Archangels and those who scale to them

Well, for one the Four Cardinal Archangels and the normal Archangels don't scale to each other. The former are much more powerful. The later and all other entities like them (Such as Seraph) probably don't scale to 2-A stuff.

Michael arguably has the most evidence for scaling to 2-A or Low 1-C stuff but I'd be okay with "At least Universe level+, possibly Multiverse level+ or High Multiverse level+"

 

[Ionliosite]

Well, for one the Four Cardinal Archangels and the normal Archangels don't scale to each other. The former are much more powerful. The later and all other entities like them (Such as Seraph) probably don't scale to 2-A stuff.

Michael arguably has the most evidence for scaling to 2-A or Low 1-C stuff but I'd be okay with "At least Universe level+, possibly Multiverse level+ or High Multiverse level+"

Yeah, I meant the Cardinal Archangels, regular ones such as Aniel are Low 2-C. So do you think I should put Raphael, Uriel, Gabriel and Michael as "At least Universe level+, possibly Multiverse level+" or just Michael while leaving the rest "At least Universe level+"?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think the former yeah. Michael is the strongest but he's never portrayed as overwhelmingly more powerful.

 

[Eganergo]

I would argue cardinal archangels are legit 2A. Their combined form (Merkabah) is stronger than Metatron which in turn stronger than Kagutsuchi. In the same time, they have no scaling for individual feats. So there's that i guess.

 

[DMUA]

What even gives the impression that Metatron is actually stronger than Kagutsuchi though?

That's something I've never picked up on

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I would argue cardinal archangels are legit 2A. Their combined form (Merkabah) is stronger than Metatron which in turn stronger than Kagutsuchi. In the same time, they have no scaling for individual feats. So there's that i guess.

Merkabah is a fused form of all four Archangels + One guy. It's not a linear summation.

What even gives the impression that Metatron is actually stronger than Kagutsuchi though?

It's several things actually. Though, yes, there's no direct "This guy is stronger" statement in any game, the opposite is extremely unlikely. Let's go over the evidence:

1. In Nocturne itself, Metatron only appears if you go through the Opitional Candelabra quests in the Labyrinth of Amala that unlock the True Demon ending. They are not necessary to fight Kagutsuchi at the end of the game and many characters will make note that the Demi-Fiend is diverging from his path. Metatron himself will warn the Demi-Fiend not to listen to Lucifer's demands or else he will invoke the wrath of God. So basically, Metatron is perfectly fine with Demi-Fiend challenging and fighting Kagutsuchi normally and only intervenes when he diverges from the path and becomes an actual threat.

2. This is minor, but one of the demons in the Labyrinth states that Metatron speaks "With a Voice like the Amala". Which is possibly a mistranslation and instead he could just be saying "With a Voice like the Infinite" or something, denoting his status as the Voice of God. In either case, Metatron's power is emphasized, and he is the Last Boss you fight in the Labyrinth. At this point the Demi-Fiend should be much stronger than the regular playthrough Demi-Fiend that fights Kagutsuchi normally, so there's also that.

3. Metatron is recurring in the entire franchise and he is ALWAYS presented as one of the most powerful aspects of God, and his Voice and Will made manifest. He is very important in the Divine Faction, whereas Kagutsuchi is just a function that shows up in one game.

 

[Tyranno223]

Strange thing about Michael is, despite never having impressive feats, showings or scaling several games have background info of him beating Lucifer, with him even saying in outright in SMT II.

Of course that's not enough for a change, but it's interesting.

 

[Eganergo]

Strange thing about Michael is, despite never having impressive feats, showings or scaling several games have background info of him beating Lucifer, with him even saying in outright in SMT II.

Of course that's not enough for a change, but it's interesting.

Really? Any scan? I don't recall such thing.

The closest thing related is that "Michael is Lucifer's twin brother" or "he lead army to battle Lucifer". Except for Dx2 compendium (His name means "Who is Like God" and is one of the archangels. When Lucifer rebelled against God, the great strategist Michael was the one to defeat and trap Lucifer. He is well known for many other spectacular deeds, and to this day has a strong following in Europe.) which is not really canon I guess?