Shiki Tohno Vs Gilgamesh

[Violatas]

at this point it just seems like i'm arguing for Tohno lol. though i'm under the impression he wins based off the profiles now and think i should've made Gil bloodlusted to make it fair in hindsight.

You think he wins anyways by the stats you place them at yourself

Anyways what the two above me said, though Tohno's ability to sense his death is pretty much cherry on top

 

[Violatas]

Also if you use bloodlusted Gil some time later, will Nanaya be used as well?
Talking about Nanaya's feats could be fun

 

[CrystalValley]

You think he wins anyways by the stats you place them at yourself

Anyways what the two above me said, though Tohno's ability to sense his death is pretty much cherry on top

we're going off profiles though. of course Gilgamesh and Servants get blitzed by low tiers from Tsukihime if we go off their actual stats. let alone MB Tohno. i did not have an idea on who won going off the profiles though. though now after everyone has spoken i am leaning towards Tohno significantly.

which Nanaya? because true form Nanaya is way too fast for a bloodlusted Gilgamesh to do anything even when going off profiles. Wallachia Tatari also likely is as well. MB Tohno is already stretching things. i try to avoid stomps.

 

[Violatas]

I was thinking the Tatari, though Tohno himself as Nanaya would be neat. Either or. I think it can be debatable as well honestly.

You'd have to set a pretty far distance though and blood lust Gil for that to happen.

Also depends on which Gilgamesh is used.

Worst case scenario speed equalization exists though I feel that'd tip things in Gilgamesh favor significantly so the former options would be better

 

[CrystalValley]

guess this can be added now?

 

[Ubdon]

guess this can be added now?

Let's wait one more vote

 

[CrystalValley]

Let's wait one more vote

it's seven votes though. are we allowed to wait for more after grace?

 

[Ubdon]

it's seven votes though. are we allowed to wait for more after grace?

Oh, sorry i miss last one. Yeah this can be added

 

[Violatas]

I'd end this personally. Kinda clear cut. Best move on to the eventual rematch that'll hopefully be more debatable

 

[CrystalValley]

I'd end this personally. Kinda clear cut. Best move on to the eventual rematch that'll hopefully be more debatable

i'm going to wait on that for a bit. going to focus on a CRT first. it'd be redundant to immediately re-debate these characters too. likely well get less attention due to this.

 

[Ubdon]

Well, bloodluct Gil wincon, is him start flying and hope, that his countless weapon spam hurt Shiki before he find way how to kill him in air.

 

[Ubdon]

i'm going to wait on that for a bit. going to focus on a CRT first. it'd be redundant to immediately re-debate these characters too. likely well get less attention due to this.

CRT for?

 

[CrystalValley]

CRT for?

multiple Tsukihime things. adding a Satsujinki key. potentially adding some Age of Gods magecraft for Shiki he seemed to of learned in Kagetsu Tohya. Another key for Kouma. quite a few things actually. basically my second big Tsukihime CRT.

 

[Ubdon]

multiple Tsukihime things. adding a Satsujinki key. potentially adding some Age of Gods magecraft for Shiki he seemed to of learned in Kagetsu Tohya. Another key for Kouma. quite a few things actually. basically my second big Tsukihime CRT.

Good, can't wait for this.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

This thread is concluded and I don't usually like to get involved in vs threads, but I'm online for the first time in a while so I thought I'd just drop by, if Tohno's main wincon is a Speed blitz then this match should probably be removed

Servant FTL is 3.15c
Melty Blood FTL is 2.31c

So I'll just leave this here in case some gil supporters need it and are still following this thread

 

[CrystalValley]

This thread is concluded and I don't usually like to get involved in vs threads, but I'm online for the first time in a while so I thought I'd just drop by, if Tohno's main wincon is a Speed blitz then this match should probably be removed

Servant FTL is 3.15c
Melty Blood FTL is 2.31c

So I'll just leave this here in case some gil supporters need it and are still following this thread

Tohno is massively above that baseline. the person he blitzed is well above that baseline even. not to mention that gap is small in the first place. the person he blitzed also should upscale from Servants based on profiles as well IIRC. regardless Gilgamesh is massively outclassed here in speed no matter how you cut it.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Tohno is massively above that baseline. the person he blitzed is well above that baseline even.

Same as Gil, the feat was performed by a Mash with an unstable fusion at the time and this was waaay before her Rank up the same rank up that let her go from running for her life to beating Lancelot in single combat and even after said Rank up her peak agi was D-Rank. Gilgamesh is comparable to an Enkidu buffed by transfiguration which can be A-A++ so he's pretty far above the 3.15c baseline as well so idk what to tell you.

not to mention that gap is small in the first place.

That doesn't really matter here , the point isn't to argue for Gilgamesh speed Blitzing it's just to say that Gilgamesh actually has a higher baseline FTL than Tohno and so speed Blitzing shouldn't really be a deciding factor if that is what was decided here

the person he blitzed also should upscale from Servants based on profiles as well IIRC. regardless Gilgamesh is massively outclassed here in speed no matter how you cut it.

Also, who did he blitz that Upscales from Servants exactly?? cause Vampire Sion seems to be the only example you gave in this particular thread. I don't see how she upscales from Servants since her second key's justification is being Superior to her first key who's capable of fighting Wallachia using 30% of Arcuieds power, Arcuied being someone who's justifications at full power include being comparable to Servants so unless you're saying DA Sion>>Full Power Arcuied I don't see how she in particular upscales. So again if you wanna say Tohno is faster you could probably make that argument but I don't think that the difference is as pronounced as you're making it out to be (if there is one at all) and it's certainly not enough that a speed Blitz is the most likely outcome here. Seems like ya'll just FRA trained it here.

Side note: Also how did MB/Tsukihime characters end up with flat FTL?? And not Rel+ with FTL reactions and Combat speed like what was proposed in the actual speed thread?? Is there a CRT made that explains why they're flat FTL??

 

[CrystalValley]

Same as Gil, the feat was performed by a Mash with an unstable fusion at the time and this was waaay before her Rank up the same rank up that let her go from running for her life to beating Lancelot in single combat and even after said Rank up her peak agi was D-Rank. Gilgamesh is comparable to an Enkidu buffed by transfiguration which can be A-A++ so he's pretty far above the 3.15c baseline as well so idk what to tell you.

That doesn't really matter here , the point isn't to argue for Gilgamesh speed Blitzing it's just to say that Gilgamesh actually has a higher baseline FTL than Tohno and so speed Blitzing shouldn't really be a deciding factor if that is what was decided here

Also, who did he blitz that Upscales from Servants exactly?? cause Vampire Sion seems to be the only example you gave in this particular thread. I don't see how she upscales from Servants since her second key's justification is being Superior to her first key who's capable of fighting Wallachia using 30% of Arcuieds power, Arcuied being someone who's justifications at full power include being comparable to Servants so unless you're saying DA Sion>>Full Power Arcuied I don't see how she in particular upscales. So again if you wanna say Tohno is faster you could probably make that argument but I don't think that the difference is as pronounced as you're making it out to be (if there is one at all) and it's certainly not enough that a speed Blitz is the most likely outcome here. Seems like ya'll just FRA trained it here.

Side note: Also how did MB/Tsukihime characters end up with flat FTL?? And not Rel+ with FTL reactions and Combat speed like what was proposed in the actual speed thread?? Is there a CRT made that explains why they're flat FTL??

30% Arcueid is compared to Servants on the profiles, not her full power. Base Sion is comparable to 30% Arcueid. Vampire Sion is significantly above her base self. and Tohno blitzed her vampire self.

actually now that I look at it, weakened Arcueid's key that's way below her 30% self is comparable to Servants still in speed. so in speed going off profiles Vampire Sion > or = Post-Tsukihime Arcueid > Pre-Tsukihime 30% Arcueid >>> weakened Arcueid = comparable to Servants. probably average ones. this blitz may be an even bigger one than i initially thought.

ask someone else about the CRT. i wasn't involved in the making of it. the upgrades were as objectively wrong as the Fate speed upgrades. i just agreed to it because if Fate is going to be unreasonably wanked, might as well do the same for a stronger series that would get scaling regardless.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

30% Arcueid is compared to Servants on the profiles, not her full power. Base Sion is comparable to 30% Arcueid. Vampire Sion is significantly above her base self. and Tohno blitzed her vampire self.

actually now that I look at it, weakened Arcueid's key that's way below her 30% self is comparable to Servants still in speed. so in speed going off profiles Vampire Sion > or = Post-Tsukihime Arcueid > Pre-Tsukihime 30% Arcueid >>> weakened Arcueid = comparable to Servants. probably average ones. this blitz may be an even bigger one than i initially thought.

Full power Pre-tsukihime Arcuied is directly compared to Servants on the profiles so where exactly is that chain coming from "Stated to be able to win against a Servant" given the wording this would mean she's on equal footing with most of them so both her Pre-Tsukihime and Tsukihime keys scale to "Servants" which could be a lot of people but well it's not the time for that

Also how did we come to the conclusion that Vampire Sion is equal to or greater than full Power Post-Tsukihime Arcuied via profiles when she got Blitzed by a Tohno who's=>50% Arcuied and the only justification that includes an Arcuied that may be at full power is that she impressed her??

If were going by profiles then Vampire Sion is comparable to "Servants" since her justifications include being able to fight Zepia who in turn gets his FTL justifications from "Being Comparable to Servants" as a DAA

So MB Tohno is a fair bit above that baseline for sure but again if I wanted to flip it Cu Chulainn(Unristricted)>Berserker>Saber>>Archer>>Rank Up Mash>>>>>Unstable fusion Mash who's the baseline for servant FTL and Gilgamesh could keep Cu pinned down with G.O.B no problems he did the same to Berserker and Saber and has done the same to other incredibly fast Servants like True Archer and Hippolyta whilst using the power of the gods so again I see no reason why theres a speed blitz here.

Also just a little deviation. Read the thread a little more and why was it decided that Gil wouldn't fly out of reach or get to a higher position in Charchter when in F/Z he didn't want to so much as stand on the same ground as everyone else because they're all Mongrels?? In Majority of all the instances we've seen him he starts off by taking the high ground Against Shirou he's stood on top of one of the Temple buildings, At the beginning of Zero after Saber v Lancer, against True Archer who he thought was a rude Mongrel, against Enkidu, When Casters Giant horror appeared in Zero, When he killed Caster in F/SN. So he probably hops onto his indian space ship and spams G.O.B from there if were being realistic

ask someone else about the CRT. i wasn't involved in the making of it. the upgrades were as objectively wrong as the Fate speed upgrades. i just agreed to it because if Fate is going to be unreasonably wanked, might as well do the same for a stronger series that would get scaling regardless.

I see that's probably gonna need to be removed then since half the justifications for MB/Tsukihime tend to go along the lines of "They should be comparable to Servants" with varied reasoning like "it was stated" or "As a DAA"

 

[CrystalValley]

Full power Pre-tsukihime Arcuied is directly compared to Servants on the profiles so where exactly is that chain coming from "Stated to be able to win against a Servant" given the wording this would mean she's on equal footing with most of them so both her Pre-Tsukihime and Tsukihime keys scale to "Servants" which could be a lot of people but well it's not the time for that

Also how did we come to the conclusion that Vampire Sion is equal to or greater than full Power Post-Tsukihime Arcuied via profiles when she got Blitzed by a Tohno who's=>50% Arcuied and the only justification that includes an Arcuied that may be at full power is that she impressed her??

If were going by profiles then Vampire Sion is comparable to "Servants" since her justifications include being able to fight Zepia who in turn gets his FTL justifications from "Being Comparable to Servants" as a DAA

So MB Tohno is a fair bit above that baseline for sure but again if I wanted to flip it Cu Chulainn(Unristricted)>Berserker>Saber>>Archer>>Rank Up Mash>>>>>Unstable fusion Mash who's the baseline for servant FTL and Gilgamesh could keep Cu pinned down with G.O.B no problems he did the same to Berserker and Saber and has done the same to other incredibly fast Servants like True Archer and Hippolyta whilst using the power of the gods so again I see no reason why theres a speed blitz here.

Also just a little deviation. Read the thread a little more and why was it decided that Gil wouldn't fly or get to a higher position in Charchter when in F/Z he didn't want to so much as stand on the same ground as everyone else because they're all Mongrels?? In Majority of all the instances we've seen him he starts off by taking the high ground Against Shirou he's stood on top of one of the Temple buildings, At the beginning of Zero after Saber v Lancer, against True Archer who he thought was a rude Mongrel, against Enkidu, When Casters Giant horror appeared in Zero, When he killed Caster in F/SN. So he probably hops onto his indian space ship and spams G.O.B from there if were being realistic

I see that's probably gonna need to be removed then since half the justifications for MB/Tsukihime tend to go along the lines of "They should be comparable to Servants" with varied reasoning like "it was stated" or "As a DAA"

Pre-Tsukihime Arcueid is at 30%. that's very obviously not her full power. she doesn't even have a 100% key oddly. though Akiha's profile scales her above her 100% self. and her Post-Tsukihime Arcueid key is stated to be stronger than her Pre-Tsukihime one, so even be this site's standards that is not her strongest key.

nothing indicates rank up Mash can blitz her other self. Cu at his best could barely blitz Emiya and it was a low tier blitz to the point Emiya could keep up through other means barely. Servants doing massive blitzes like the kind that happen in Tsukihime doesn't really happen in. and Gilgamesh certainly is not one of them. should also be noted that this site considers DAAs on par with Servants and even Arcueid's weakest key could fight them, putting the weakest Arcueid at least equal that Mash.

Gilgamesh fell to the ground when Lancealot broke the light post he was standing on instead of flying. he also fell when Lancealot blew up his ship. it seems flying is either something he doesn't like doing or takes time to activate. and he rarely ever pulls out his ship. and again being in the air isn't even assuring a win. Gilgamesh dicks around too much and time is the last thing he has on his side here.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Cu at his best could barely blitz Emiya and it was a low tier blitz to the point Emiya could keep up through other means barely. and Gilgamesh certainly is not one of them.

Emyia couldn't even see him moving and his Spear was stated to be invisible to him that's a pretty big blitz. Minds Eye which is mid tier Precog is the only thing that kept him from being skewered.

should also be noted that this site considers DAAs on par with Servants and even Arcueid's weakest key could fight them, putting the weakest Arcueid at least equal that Mash.

This site notes a lot of things are "On Par" or "Comprable" to Servants but just like Tsukihime/MB there are servants much faster than others it's all semantics really scaling off "servants" doesn't mean you're equal to all them, so yeah DAA's do scale to Servants some may be on par with Mash others downscale same with Arcuied her 30% may be equal to some Servants but not others but because we downscale and Upscale everyone to the same ratings her full power would may put her in the upper echelons with Regards to scaling not above them since again same way Some MB/Tsuki charchters Charchters Superior to others is the same way there are Servants that are Superior to others. So again don't see how Tohno blitzing Sion=him Being able to Blitz Gilgamesh who can keep even the fastest of Servants like True Archer and Cu penned down with G.O.B (in Charachter since that seems to be the major premise here)

nothing indicates rank up Mash can blitz her other self.

Mash post Rank up could fight Lancelot one on one and beat him, Before that Mash literally had to run for her life along with everyone else because Lancelot completely out matched all of them even as a group so she's far stronger than her Pre-Rank up self and that Pre-Rank up self is already superior to the unstable state in which she performed the feat

Gilgamesh fell to the ground when Lancealot broke the light post he was standing on instead of flying. he also fell when Lancealot blew up his ship. it seems flying is either something he doesn't like doing or takes time to activate. and he rarely ever pulls out his ship. and again being in the air isn't even assuring a win. Gilgamesh dicks around too much and time is the last thing he has on his side here.

Doesn't change the fact that he saw it as Blasphemy that he was even standing on the same ground as him so him flying into the air or pursuing some form of high ground is a very in Charchter thing for him to do. Also, I don't think Tohno can turn fighter Jets into Noble Phantasms and use it to fight Gil in a mid air battle the same way Lancelot did. And flying doesn't take any time at all right before his fight with Enkidu in F/SF he took of instantly with no issues

Pre-Tsukihime Arcueid is at 30%. that's very obviously not her full power. she doesn't even have a 100% key oddly. though Akiha's profile scales her above her 100% self. and her Post-Tsukihime Arcueid key is stated to be stronger than her Pre-Tsukihime one, so even be this site's standards that is not her strongest key.

That is her Full Power it should be clear when reading her Weaknesses where it states she "may" use a portion of her power to hold back her bloodlust. This also should be evident since Akiha who Scales above her 100% upscales from the same Island Level that you see in her In all of her Non God-Tier Keys.

 

[CrystalValley]

Emyia couldn't even see him moving and his his Spear was stated to be invisible to him that's a pretty big Blitz. Minds Eye which is mid Tier Precog is the only thing that kept him from being skewered

This site notes a lot of things are "On Par" or "Comprable" to Servants just like Tsukihime/MB there are servants much faster than others it's all semantics really scaling off "servants" doesn't mean you're equal to all them, so yeah DAA's do scale to Servants some may be on par with Mash others downscale same with Arcuied her 30% may be equal to some Servants but not others but because we downscale and Upscale everyone to the same ratings her full power would put her in the upper echelons with Regards to scaling not above them since again same way Some MB/Tsuki charchters Charchters Superior to others there are Servants thay are also Superior to others . So again don't see how Tohno blitzing Sion=him Being able to Blitz Gilgamesh who can keep even the fastest of Servants like True Archer and Cu penned down with G.O.B (in Charachter since that seems to be the major premise here)

Mash post Rank up could fight Lancelot one on one and beat him, Before that Mash literally had to run for her life along with everyone else because Lancelot completely out matched all of them even as a group so she's far stronger than her Pre-Rank up self and that Pre-Rank up self is already superior to the unstable state in which she performed the feat

Doesn't change the fact that he saw it as Blasphemy that he was even standing on the same ground as him so him flying into the air or pursuing some form of high ground is a very in Charchter thing for him to do. Also, I don't think Tohno can turn fighter Jets into Noble Phantasms and use it to fight Gil in a mid air battle the same way Lancelot did. And flying doesn't take any time at all right before his fight with Enkidu in F/SF he took of instantly with no issues

That is her Full Power it should be clear when reading her Weaknesses where it states she "may" use a portion of her power to hold back her bloodlust. This also should be evident since Akiha who Scales above her upscales from the same Island Level that you see in her In all of her Non God-Tier Keys.

Emiya was able to keep up with him though so not really. he could move his body to parry and counter him.

you imply that Mash with the wank feat is exceptionally weak, so they should scale above her. we know 30% Arc should scale well above her since weakened Arc is still in that speed range.

Lancealot could not blitz pre rank up Mash or stop them from escaping. so whatever power increase she got, the speed increase was little to non existent.

Gilgamesh is not one of the faster Servants. Shirou could keep up with him even. it's just that he's so strong when serious that in conjunction with SNI, speed will not assure you a win. the problem in this fight is that the speed difference is extremely high more so than it would be with Cu compared to Gilgamesh.

Gilgamesh thought it was blasphemy and then proceeded to immediately fall to the ground in both fights.

That is her Full Power it should be clear when reading her Weaknesses where it states she "may" use a portion of her power to hold back her bloodlust. This also should be evident since Akiha who Scales above her upscales from the same Island Level that you see in her In all of her Non God-Tier Keys.

30% Arcueid is always using 70% of her power to hold back her bloodlust. Akiha scales above her 100% self which does not have a key. if 30% Arcueid lost control of herself mentally and used her full power, that would just be her jumping to another key. take note that Akiha is "at least" Island Level because we don't have an actual key for 100% Arcueid in the profiles.

the overall speed chain is probably something like Nanaya >> dying Nanaya >>> Full Power Akiha > 100% Arcueid, MB Tohno being somewhere around here probably or faster even, but he's at least >>> Vampire Sion > or = 50% Arcueid > 30% Arcueid > Base Sion >>>> Weakened Arcueid = lower end Servants like pre rankup Mash. remember that Servant stats like speed tend not to result in extreme blitzes. they're all mostly comparable to each other. even Cu with his god-tier combat speed was unable to blitz Archer beyond a level for him to defend himself.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

30% Arcueid is always using 70% of her power to hold back her bloodlust. Akiha scales above her 100% self which does not have a key. if 30% Arcueid lost control of herself mentally and used her full power, that would just be her jumping to another key. take note that Akiha is "at least" Island Level because we don't have an actual key for 100% Arcueid in the profiles.

Akiha is "At Least" Island Level because she's stated to be stronger but to an unquantifiable degree so we put her at Island Level because we know shes stronger but we don't know by how much so you can't give her a higher tier

Emiya was able to keep up with him though so not really. he could move his body to parry and counter him.

He explicitly couldn't keep up with him though again his movments were stated to be invisible to him and it was explicitly stated that he could not block Lancers attacks again he needed pecog just to stay alive.

Gilgamesh is not one of the faster Servants. Shirou could keep up with him even. it's just that he's so strong when serious that in conjunction with SNI, speed will not assure you a win. the problem in this fight is that the speed difference is extremely high more so than it would be with Cu compared to Gilgamesh.

Gilgamesh thought it was blasphemy and then proceeded to immediately fall to the ground in both fights.

Oh he definitely is a faster servant he was stated to be on Par with True Archer in terms of stats and can keep up with a full tilt Enkidu who can boost his stats to be on par with Richard I. And even in the Weakened state he was in during F/SN he was still able to keep the Fastest Servants of that Grail war penned down pretty comfortably using G.O.B in Charchter

Him falling to the ground is pretty irrelevant too since those two events happened after he had taken the high ground so unless Tohno could force that same type of situation saying he fell to the ground doesn't mean anything since he still took the high ground in the beginning which is the whole point and even in F/Z after Lancelot Destroy Vimana he stood atop the bridge which is again a high point. So again Gilgamesh canonicaly tends to take Higher ground at the beginning of confrontations. No reason for him to do otherwise here.

you imply that Mash with the wank feat is exceptionally weak, so they should scale above her. we know 30% Arc should scale well above her since weakened Arc is still in that speed range.

Lancealot could not blitz pre rank up Mash or stop them from escaping. so whatever power increase she got, the speed increase was little to non existent.

Problem with this, is that they ran away before Lancelot got there so and again I think going from having to run away and avoid confrontation completely to being able to beat him one on one without any outside help is a pretty big jump.

Also using Lancelot "Didn't blitz" as an argument doesn't really work since there's also a narrative to consider among other things it's like saying if Solomon is way stronger why didn't they just Destroy chaldea from the start instead of leaving them alone and letting them destroy the Singularities

 

[CrystalValley]

Akiha is "At Least" Island Level because she's stated to be stronger but to an unquantifiable degree so we put her at Island Level because we know shes stronger but we don't know by how much so you can't give her a higher tier

she's at island level at least because we don't have 100% Arcueid as a key and so we don't have an actual AP rating for her. we just know she'd be at that level at bare minimum. i'm the one who gave her that rating. i think i should know why i put that there.

He explicitly couldn't keep up with him though again his movments were stated to be invisible to him and it was explicitly stated that he could not block Lancers attacks again he needed pecog just to stay alive.

and with precog his body was fast enough to block them by moving to the right position ahead of time. that's a blitz yes, but not a huge one. Cu was also called "the fastest heroic spirit" in that fight, so take that as you will.

Sion also had precog and was unable to do anything to Tohno's blitz.

Oh he definitely is a faster servant he was stated to be on Par with True Archer in terms of stats

that Gilgamesh had higher stats than the one in Zero and Stay Night. though again that doesn't really change much here. he is not as fast as Cu even there.

im falling to the ground is pretty irrelevant too since those two events happened after he had taken the high ground

if you think standing on a light post is too high or relevant, Idk what to tell you. as for his ship, he almost never uses it ever. in fact we only saw him use it in Zero one single time.

So again Gilgamesh canonicaly tends to take Higher ground at the beginning of confrontations.

he stood on a light post one time. i hardly see how that is relevant. he only started in his ship one time in the entire verse IIRC. that versus billions of times he did not start in the air and never went to the air, even when getting pressured by Shirou of all people. your own idea of Gilgamesh has it where he would stomp everyone and Shirou would've stood no chance against him.

I think going from having to run away and avoid confrontation completely to being able to beat him one on one without any outside help is a pretty big jump.

please provide evidence that Lancealot can blitz pre rank up Mash. stomping her doesn't have to mean in speed, let alone blitz tier speed. Servants don't even tend to do that.

since there's also a narrative to consider

i'm not going to remotely acknowledge this as an argument, sorry. the characters do not operate the way they claim you do. it's as simple as that.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

and with precog his body was fast enough to block them by moving to the right position ahead of time. that's a blitz yes, but not a huge one. Cu was also called "the fastest heroic spirit" in that fight, so take that as you will.

It was explicitly stated that he couldn't block his attacks actually I'm pretty sure that scan is on his page itself. Don't know why you're so intent on downplaying it seeing as how if it wasn't for pecog that tells him where and when he wouldve gotten skewered with minimal fuss.

if you think standing on a light post is too high or relevant, Idk what to tell you. as for his ship, he almost never uses it ever. in fact we only saw him use it in Zero one single time.

he stood on a light post one time. i hardly see how that is relevant. he only started in his ship one time in the entire verse IIRC. that versus billions of times he did not start in the air and never went to the air, even when getting pressured by Shirou of all people. your own idea of Gilgamesh has it where he would stomp everyone and Shirou would've stood no chance against him.

You forgot in Strange Fake against Enkidu and True Archer(he used his ship here), You also forgot in UBW at the start of the Same Shirou fight and Shirou wasn't even the one who forced him down it was Saber. Or how he was stood atop the Tohsaka residence when Assassin attacked in their choreographed fight, you also forgot about how he was stood on a rooftop against Caster in the Fate route, You also forget how he did in Babylonia in the final fight with Tiamat, and how he used his Ship in the Fate/Zero event in FGO or how his younger self also used Vimana in Prisma, So that's a little more than standing on a light post "one time". So again I'll say it canonically Gilgamesh tends to persue the higher ground in fights more often than not it's as simple as that.

Why I say this is because the consensus here seemed to be "Gil won't fly or get on his ship in charchter so Tohno blitzes him while he's on the ground" when Gil just canonically tends to take the high ground at the beginning of confrontations.

that Gilgamesh had higher stats than the one in Zero and Stay Night. though again that doesn't really change much here. he is not as fast as Cu even there.

Still "Servant Gil", tbh we should probably separate his Servant Key by iteration rather than just Servant and MMC. But until then it's all in one so his SF iteration counts as well.

And I wouldn't be so sure about "Not as fast as Cu" he himself is Ranked A in SF same as Cu and Enkidu at full tilt ranges from A-A++ and him and Gil are always portrayed as relative in their fights. Although that's not really the point here the point with mentioning Cu is that Gil was able to pin him down in charchter using G.O.B same with True Archer who's also an exceptionally fast servant, same with Berserker and the same with Saber. So even in charchter his spams can pin down Charchters who should be far faster than him but that's a thing that he does in Canon.

the overall speed chain is probably something like Nanaya >> dying Nanaya >>> Full Power Akiha > 100% Arcueid, MB Tohno being somewhere around here probably or faster even, but he's at least >>> Vampire Sion > or = 50% Arcueid > 30% Arcueid > Base Sion >>>> Weakened Arcueid = lower end Servants like pre rankup Mash. remember that Servant stats like speed tend not to result in extreme blitzes. they're all mostly comparable to each other. even Cu with his god-tier combat speed was unable to blitz Archer beyond a level for him to defend himself.

This doesn't work since Vampire Sion is scaled directly off Zepia in that key and Zepia is directly scaled off servants in both his Key's It also doesn't work since 30% Arc is the one who's stated to be comparable to Servants not Weakened Tsuki Arc.

Comptiq 2005-09 issue - Fate Dojo Q & A
Q: About the power comparison between Arc and Servants, would the Arc being compared be the 30% one or the full one?

A: That would be the 30% Arc

Which means it also doesn't work since Base Sion is comparable to 30% Arcuied who's stated to be comprable to Servants. Also why is Dying Nanaya>100% Arcuied Nrvansqr was able to react to his Movment and track him in OG Tsukihime pretty sure he even grazed him in the Manga.

 

[CrystalValley]

It was explicitly stated that he couldn't block his attacks actually I'm pretty sure that scan is on his page itself. Don't know why you're so intent on downplaying it seeing as how if it wasn't for pecog that tells him where and when he wouldve gotten skewered with minimal fuss.

he defended against them. that is a known fact otherwise he'd be dead. i do not know why you're so intent on making Fate out to be a bigger deal than it actually is.

seeing as how if it wasn't for pecog that tells him where and when he wouldve gotten skewered with minimal fuss.

it was a blitz. it was impressive. it was not on the level of what Tohno did to Vampire Sion, who should be well above Archer in the first place.

You forgot in Strange Fake against Enkidu and True Archer(he used his ship here),

Enkidu is a special case since he immediately takes him seriously. and yeah, i did forget about the True Archer one. that's two times out of billions of others. standing on top of a light post or house like with Shirou is irrelevant in this fight to the point I do not know why you're bringing it up.

. Or how he was stood atop the Tohsaka residence when Assassin attacked in their choreographed fight

being on a building is literally irrelevant here. that's not doing anything. Tohno will just go up there or crash the building. and we know in-character Gilgamesh willingly falls to the ground if that happens even if he's pissed off by it.

Why I say this is because the consensus here seemed to be "Gil won't fly or get on his ship in charchter so Tohno blitzes him while he's on the ground" when Gil just canonically tends to take the high ground at the beginning of confrontations.

high ground =/= flying.

Still "Servant Gil", tbh we should probably separate his Servant Key by iteration rather than just Servant and MMC. But until then it's all in one so his SF iteration counts as well.

actually the tag says FSN, so it could easily not count if I say it doesn't. but yes I'll count his stats there because I wasn't trying to make a stomp here. but i think it's incredibly hard to argue for Gil at this point.

And I wouldn't be so sure about "Not as fast as Cu" he himself is Ranked A in SF same as Cu and Enkidu at full tilt ranges from A-A++ and him and Gil are always portrayed as relative in their fights.

Gilgamesh has ways to deal with people faster than him. just not extreme blitz levels like he's dealing with here if he doesn't immediately take the most appropriate action. and even that isn't assuring a win. in the case of Enkidu as well, not sure how fast his projectiles are compared to his main body. but we know Gilgamesh is slower than Cu because Cu is stated to be the fastest Heroic Spirit, which in context should be referring to his combat speed. Enkidu under ideal circumstances can maybe go faster, but it is not his normal speed. and we don't know if it applies to his projectiles. and Cu isn't as fast as Tohno anyways.

Although that's not really the point here the point with mentioning Cu is that Gil was able to pin him down in charchter using G.O.B same with True Archer who's also an exceptionally fast servant

it also took Gilgamesh around 12 hours to take down Cu, who was stated to be nerfed in closed spaces IIRC. and unfortunately for Gilgamesh he is fighting someone even faster and who can shred through all of his attacks and hax with ease. Gilgamesh has to react immediately in the best way possible to stand a chance. a 12 hour fight against a 1-A smurf that is blitz tier faster is not happening.

This doesn't work since Vampire Sion is scaled directly off Zepia in that key and Zepia is directly scaled off servants in both his Key's It also doesn't work since 30% Arc is the one who's stated to be comparable to Servants not Weakened Tsuki Arc.

doesn't matter. we're going off profiles here and the profiles say weakened Arcueid is comparable. if we're not going off profiles Servants are nowhere near as fast and strong as Tsukihime low tiers and Nasu's statements are all contradicted by feats and guidebook statements. seriously, not going off profiles is only going to make this match extreme spite against Gilgamesh, the dude who is supersonic at best.

Also why is Dying Nanaya>100% Arcuied Nrvansqr was able to react to his Movment and track him in OG Tsukihime pretty sure he even grazed him in the Manga.

Nrvnqsr is someone Arcueid stated would be difficult to defeat at her full power. He's an extremely powerful DAA and stated to be one of the strongest ones. and Nanaya was even weaker there than his battle with Akiha to the point he passed out seconds after killing Nrvnqsr. Nrvnqsr was also completely unable to defend himself and got curbstomped. and in the VN he didn't graze Nanaya even slightly. the Nanaya that was rapidly losing his power in the Kohaku Route is above 100% Arcueid because he beat someone that is explicitly stated to be above her, which also lines up with the scaling presented in the stories.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

doesn't matter. we're going off profiles here and the profiles say weakened Arcueid is comparable. if we're not going off profiles Servants are nowhere near as fast and strong as Tsukihime low tiers and Nasu's statements are all contradicted by feats and guidebook statements. seriously, not going off profiles is only going to make this match extreme spite against Gilgamesh, the dude who is supersonic at best.

Nrvnqsr is someone Arcueid stated would be difficult to defeat at her full power. He's an extremely powerful DAA and stated to be one of the strongest ones. and Nanaya was even weaker there than his battle with Akiha to the point he passed out seconds after killing Nrvnqsr. Nrvnqsr was also completely unable to defend himself and got curbstomped. and in the VN he didn't graze Nanaya even slightly. the Nanaya that was rapidly losing his power in the Kohaku Route is above 100% Arcueid because he beat someone that is explicitly stated to be above her, which also lines up with the scaling presented in the stories.

Problem here is that even if you wanna ignore it if were going explicitly off profiles then Vampire Sion still Scales to Servants because she Scales directly off Zepia in that key, with Zepia scaling directly off Servants meaning that 30% Arcuied, Vampire Sion and base Sion are all still relative to Servants

And Nrvansqr is difficult to defeat because of his reliant Immortality rather than him being so strong Arcuied can't beat him. a Weakened Arcuied cut him in half. Even then the fact that Base Nrvansqr could see where Dying Nanaya was and send a beast to try and intercept him is pretty telling. I can agree with Normal Nanaya being above 100% Arcuied but dying Nanaya probably isn't..

Also I get you don't really agree with what's on the profiles fine well agree to disagree but if you're gonna go in hard with the "going off the profiles" you should probably stop coping so hard about the speed ratings on said profiles whenever you make a comment.

Gilgamesh has ways to deal with people faster than him. just not extreme blitz levels like he's dealing with here if he doesn't immediately take the most appropriate action. and even that isn't assuring a win. in the case of Enkidu as well, not sure how fast his projectiles are compared to his main body. but we know Gilgamesh is slower than Cu because Cu is stated to be the fastest Heroic Spirit, which in context should be referring to his combat speed. Enkidu under ideal circumstances can maybe go faster, but it is not his normal speed. and we don't know if it applies to his projectiles. and Cu isn't as fast as Tohno anyways.

it also took Gilgamesh around 12 hours to take down Cu, who was stated to be nerfed in closed spaces IIRC. and unfortunately for Gilgamesh he is fighting someone even faster and who can shred through all of his attacks and hax with ease. Gilgamesh has to react immediately in the best way possible to stand a chance. a 12 hour fight against a 1-A smurf that is blitz tier faster is not happening.

It depends if it's F/SN specifically then he's assuredly slower but his attacks can keep even the Fastest heroic spirits of that Grail war penned down E.g Herc also Cu being the "Fastest Heroic spirit" wouldn't really be accurate if we aren't talking F/SN specifically because Again F/SF Gil has the same stats and so do a bunch of other Servants even Achilles is stated to be the Fastest heroic spirit of any era but he also has lower stats than Santa Karna who has EX-Ranked Agi so he got power creeped pretty hard. But that's a side note.

he defended against them. that is a known fact otherwise he'd be dead. i do not know why you're so intent on making Fate out to be a bigger deal than it actually is.

it was a blitz. it was impressive. it was not on the level of what Tohno did to Vampire Sion, who should be well above Archer in the first place.

Did he though??, also again Vampire Sion scales off Servants going by profiles so she's probably not "Well above Archer". Also I probably wouldn't make a big deal about it if you didn't try to downplay it as "Barely a blitz" earlier when lancers movments were Literally invisible to Archer and needed Precog that tells him where and when to survive and was still explicitly stated to be unable to block his attacks despite that.

 

[CrystalValley]

Oh is that so?? I thought the tag was just for show hmmm if it's F/SN specifically then MB tohno could blitz since his Feats from F/SN aren't as impressive as later showings. but if that's the case then this should probably be removed for stomp

Problem here is that even if you wanna ignore it if were going explicitly off profiles then Vampire Sion still Scales to Servants because she Scales directly off Zepia in that key, with Zepia scaling directly off Servants meaning that 30% Arcuied, Vampire Sion and base Sion are all still relative to Servants

weakened Arcueid scaling to Servants means that the other scaling comparisons should be comparisons to higher tier Servants. that's just simple logic.

And Nrvansqr is difficult to defeat because of his reliant Immortality rather than him being so strong Arcuied can't beat him.

he also has the power to actually kill her. he didn't even use his strongest beasts on weakened Arcueid or his final form. and cutting Nrvnqsr in half is basically nothing. it did nothing of substance to him and would equate to killing a very small amount of lives. do I need to mention that Nrvnqsr could stomp Sion? Nrvnqsr underestimated Arcueid initially in her weakened state. that was all. he then immediately defeated her afterwards.

Even then the fact that Base Nrvansqr could see where Dying Nanaya was and send a beast to try and intercept him is pretty telling. I can agree with Normal Nanaya being above 100% Arcuied but dying Nanaya probably isn't..

Nanaya > dying Nanaya > the literally almost seconds away from passing out and dying of blood loss with chunks ripped out of him Nanaya, who again stomped someone comparable to full power Arcueid (Nrvnqsr). should also be noted that Nrvnqsr was a match for MB Tohno of all people. Nanaya while losing his life force rapidly against Akiha defeated her, who is above 100% Arcueid. this is simple and crystal clear. there is nothing you can reasonably object to.

you should probably stop coping so hard about the speed ratings on said profiles whenever you make a comment.

the FTL wank cope was already massively and effortlessly debunked by me and many many others. the reason I bring it up is because you seem to be wanting to go outside of the profiles by rejecting Arcueid's lower key being compared to Servants. i'm just mentioning that one, this thread is intended to go off profiles regardless of our thoughts on the accuracy of said profiles and two, that really just makes this a stomp so let's not go there. if I was looking to make a stomp match I would've just used Nanaya or said not going off profiles. i was also initially more neutral on this match up. but this is months later now so my opinion has been swayed more to one side.

FYI, Melty Blood is not FTL either and the reasons for it are completely invalid. don't think i'm just applying this to Fate. it should be much faster than Fate but most of the characters aren't even hitting sub-rel. if i was trying to be bias i would just spew the FTL MB stuff while low balling Fate with double standards but i detest such dishonesty.

It depends if it's F/SN specifically then he's assuredly slower but his attacks can keep even the Fastest heroic spirits of that Grail war penned down E.g Herc also Cu being the "Fastest Heroic spirit" wouldn't really be accurate if we aren't talking F/SN specifically because Again F/SF Gil has the same stats and so do a bunch of other Servants even Achilles is stated to be the Fastest heroic spirit of any era but he also has lower stats than Santa Karna who has EX-Ranked Agi so he got power creeped pretty hard. But that's a side note.

should be noted that agility can mean several things. travel speed and combat speed are pretty different. and just because two characters have A agility does not mean there isn't a gap between them. Cu can also go to A+ IIRC. and is Santa Karna even canon? also even if Cu was only the fastest in the war, he'd be well above Berserker despite his A agility because Berserker wasn't blitzing shit against Archer.

also again Vampire Sion scales off Servants going by profiles so she's probably not "Well above Archer".

again, weakened Arcueid is compared to Servants. that should mean she is comparable to low end to middle tier at best. 30% Arcueid is massively above that, meaning her being compared to Servants logically would mean upper end or top-tier Servants.

Also I probably wouldn't make a big deal about it if you didn't try to downplay it as "Barely a blitz" earlier when lancers movments were Literally invisible to Archer and needed Precog that tells him where and when to survive and was still explicitly stated to be unable to block his attacks despite that.

i mean you act as if i think that is unimpressive. i do not. it is impressive. but the fact Archer can defend himself with precog means his movements are fast enough to intercept Cu if he does so ahead of time. again this is still a blitz, but pretty much the lowest form of one.

 

[Ubdon]

I reread arguments and calc

Change my vote to Gilgamesh fra pls

 

[CrystalValley]

I reread arguments and calc

Change my vote to Gilgamesh fra pls

sure but the match has been over for months. there would need to be another thread made.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Since some people here seem so keen on arguing about these two in what was a finished thread for months, maybe you should make a new match.

 

[CrystalValley]

Since some people here seem so keen on arguing about these two in what was a finished thread for months, maybe you should make a new match.

it's just the one dude who felt like bumping this for no real reason months after it was over. his points kind of fell flat too. someone else can remake it if they wish but i see no reason. i think the debate ended here anyways, but i'm not sure.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Since some people here seem so keen on arguing about these two in what was a finished thread for months, maybe you should make a new match.

Possibly, but there are a couple things that need to be changed first.

 

[CrystalValley]

Problem is, is that she's not and that's the thing the "Comprable to Servants" refers to 30% Arcuied only pretty sure I posted that interview where that happened there was no statment about weakened Tsuki Arc being conprable to servants ever. So she Massively downscales(shouldn't even have that justification but oh well that's another thing to add) and I'm pretty sure 30% Arcuied loses to top tier Servants there's a WOG statment saying F/SN Gil beats her I believe

profile has weakened Arcueid comparable to them in speed. we are arguing profiles. you are going against profiles only when it conveniently suits you.

the MB calc was just added justification for FTL. but the main scaling is via Servants which is why people way below the person who preformed that FTL calc are still rated as FTL.

Nasu's word is irrelevant when it's contradicted massively by all of his stories. dude can't even keep his interview statements consistent. says Gilgamesh solos the 5th War in a night if he was serious and then years later says Saber Alter could maybe match living Gilgamesh or something like that. the only time his statements should be taken seriously is if they are not contradicted. should also be noted that the Arc Vs. Servants thing he stated was a non-serious answer.

"Massively and Effortlessly Debunked" brother You can't really go around saying you effortlessly debunked things when both sides of the argument were presented and you lost the vote that's what we call copium.

Appeal To Common Belief Fallacy. it doesn't matter how many uninformed ignorant and or bias people believe something. the facts are the facts. and the facts were on the side of the people debunking it in this case. lost the vote but won the argument. also be careful using such a fallacy since it backfires on you even here, considering most people consider FTL Servants to be bullshit outside of this website. the only cope here is bumping a 2 to 3 month old concluded thread because you can't stand a character from a series you identify with losing.

You mean how Archer pulled him into UBW and Killed him six times

Archer only used UBW in the Deen anime adaption IIRC, not the original VN. and he kept up with Berserker without UBW in the anime and killed him a few times before activating UBW. so my point stands regardless.

That reminds me too why was it just decided that Tohno was able to deal with G.O.B both Saber and True Archer had Precog but were still unable to keep G.O.B from pinning them down Hell True Archer had that, incredible speed and a pelt that makes 80% of G.O.B completely ineffective for the most part but still got pinned down by it.

because the speed gap is too high and his projectiles would be slow as hell from Tohno's point of view.

this Gilgamesh also doesn't even start with omni-directional GoB spam. he literally took 12 hours to defeat Cu, who was nerfed in a small space. that's actually pathetic. i actually forgot about that when making this thread. Gilgamesh never fights in the most optimal ways in this key even against Enkidu as shown in SF.

Well obviously he defeated her afterwards she was a sitting duck after using her strength to beat his weaker Beasts and cut him in half, point is there is a Weakened Arc can tag him in Base pretty easily

a serious Nrvnqsr stomped Sion and matched MB Tohno for a while, who would waste 30% Arcueid let alone weakened Arcueid. and Nrvnqsr also killed a Tatari Red Arcueid. i do not know why you try to comment on series you don't really have any knowledge on beyond wiki skimming. it leads to wildly inaccurate claims. you are ignoring all of my counters and just saying the same things that were already dealt with. Nanaya >> the dying Nanaya that fought Akiha > the dying Nanaya that was seconds away from passing out with chunks of his body missing. and again, the profiles are the profiles. and Nrvnqsr underestimated Arcueid at first. that was it. a stronger version of Arcueid has lost to him. he matched MB Tohno. he stomped Sion. the list goes on.

Nrvnqsr is stated to be almighty even among the strongest vampires. Wallachia is also stated to be one of the strongest DAA and admits Nrvnqsr is superior to him. nothing in the profile of Nrvnqsr contradicts anything I just said. MB Nrvnqsr is not stronger than Tsukihime Nrvnqsr. Nrvnqsr is just that powerful. always has been.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Appeal To Common Belief Fallacy. it doesn't matter how many uninformed ignorant and or bias people believe something. the facts are the facts. and the facts were on the side of the people debunking it in this case. lost the vote but won the argument. also be careful using such a fallacy since it backfires on you even here, considering most people consider FTL Servants to be bullshit outside of this website. the only cope here is bumping a 2 to 3 month old concluded thread because you can't stand a character from a series you identify with losing.

Alright brother if you truly believe that the facts were with you then there's no need to go over it here, also pfft petty much I'm not really on the forums that much haven't been around for a month or two I actually discovered this match happened by chance too when I was adding Scans to Gil's page the other week lol and I looked at the thread and saw that it got FRA trained pretty hard and thought I should comment cause I'm not invested enough in Vs matches on here that I'm making a whole new thread.

With that said you're right this thread is old and concluded so I think it would be better if someone made another thread or something later rather than hashing it out in an old thread although I'll maybe leave that up to Gil fans.

 

[Violatas]

Ok so I was notified about this.
To clarify, Arcueid's weakened self is comparable to Servants since she easily stomps out Ciel as soon as she stops holding back her bloodlust. Happens in both the manga and VN of Tsukihime, and this site has Tsukihime version Ciel as comparable to Servants. Arc wouldn't be "massively" down scaling even dropping under her 30% power rating. Just to point out, we currently have SHIKI scaling to Servants as well for keeping up with Ciel and Arcueid.
Also to bring up the FTL calc, its really in tandem movement with the laser in the Melty game that was used mainly. The manga feat was also brought up since that's where the evidence of the laser being legit comes from. IDK how fast it would get if you use the manga version since Akiha would have made a lot of movement to intercept it between Shiki and Arcueid, as opposed to the game where its barely in tandem. Definitely would get higher.
I also brought it up in case people only wanted to scale characters comparable or > Vermilion Akiha to FTL, since she's the one that intercepted the laser in the manga. Game version, anyone can have in tandem movement with it.

No comment on the match here since I already said my piece way up. Seem to have wrapped up again anyways