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It's a place where the entirety of this game (it's characters and multiverse) is merely fiction, written by Architect. It is above the game's reality.
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Shadow Fight Upgrade That Should Have Been Done In The Past
- Thread starter Jeeeeepil123
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GarrixianXD
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R>F standards been changed, something like that is rather 1-A but that does not meet our new standards like the other staff has said.
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So where can we place the "Real world" here? It clearly can't be 4D, given the fact that a 4D structure (the game's multiverse) is merely fiction, so I'm curious
GarrixianXD
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4-D, because just having a fiction statement by itself won’t mean much anymore. Unless proven otherwise by consistency and more context and such.
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I mean, we were already proceeding with that, but as dashio pointed out, there is a statement of architect that points out his ability to delete the game from the player's mobile phone.
So do you mean he stays 2-A physically, but gets to 1-A via hax? (like "2-B, possibly 2-A physical, 1-A via Data manipulation)
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Alright then, I'll also wait for @Dashio_Tessai's input on this, to see if he has anymore scans or context to prove it.
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But it is hard to wrap my mind around how the real world still stays 4D, it's kinda hard to make sense
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So now that we've poked the "is the Real World 5D" hornet's nest again, let's start off by clarifying something. TL;DR at the end since after that I start arguing about the game.
The old Reality-Fiction Transcendence page
Was merely a tool handed by the VSB Wiki to people which allowed them to upgrade a character to a Low 1-C (or above) tier, without the need of the character in question to have any direct, on the nose statement in-verse about them being higher-dimensional. All that character and the user upgrading them needed to provide was a series of feats and statements (such as "X character considering Y world / character as ficitonal") which gave off the impression that the character was higher-dimensional, without any statements that directly state so being made.
This page was just VSB wiki being leniet and taking pity on verses / characters whose writer(s) were either not thinking / viewing things like battleboard nerds do, too simplistic or too lazy to go out of their way to include "higher-dimensional" or similar scientific phrases / concepts in their vocabulary, but characters who nonetheless behaved in the story similarly or identically to how an actual higher-dimensional entity would interact with a lower-dimensional one.
Which basically means that nobody who actually had direct higher-dimensional statements in-verse about themselves ever needed the Reality-Fiction Transcendence page to get the tier 1 that they belonged in. They didn't require such tool because they had nothing much to prove. Because on this wiki one serious / objective "X character is higher-dimensional / 5D / etc." statement / description is worth 5 times more than a series of feats and statements which do nothing but only imply that they refer to higher-dimensionality. The latter are merely considered "supporting" arguments that further enhance the validity of the former.
The new Reality-Fiction Transcendence page
Its only co-relation to the old page is really just thier shared names, because in reality they couldn't be more different than each other. The new R>F Transcendence page is no longer the friendly scapegoat used by characters to reach tier 1's and above without any direct higher-dimensionality statements being made about them. In fact, a character having direct and straightforward higher-dimensionality statements about them is the bare minimum they need to even qualify for using the new page. In a twist of events this page is now the biggest enemy of users of the old one.
TL'DR So, let's make it clear that we should no longer use the R>F Transcendence page in Architect arguments, because we would automatically refer to the new one.
And so, let's start discussing if the Real World is 5D without the R>F T page being a supporting argument. A very ugly and unavoidable truth is that there is no such thing as a direct higher-dimensional statement about Architect anywhere in the game (there's none for anything else in the verse, either. The writers are not fond of masturbating to battleboard-y wording and thus you can spot fabricated statements here from a mile away). All that we've got is implications that it is. Here's my 2 cents about why the Real World could be 5D:
The old Reality-Fiction Transcendence page
Was merely a tool handed by the VSB Wiki to people which allowed them to upgrade a character to a Low 1-C (or above) tier, without the need of the character in question to have any direct, on the nose statement in-verse about them being higher-dimensional. All that character and the user upgrading them needed to provide was a series of feats and statements (such as "X character considering Y world / character as ficitonal") which gave off the impression that the character was higher-dimensional, without any statements that directly state so being made.
This page was just VSB wiki being leniet and taking pity on verses / characters whose writer(s) were either not thinking / viewing things like battleboard nerds do, too simplistic or too lazy to go out of their way to include "higher-dimensional" or similar scientific phrases / concepts in their vocabulary, but characters who nonetheless behaved in the story similarly or identically to how an actual higher-dimensional entity would interact with a lower-dimensional one.
Which basically means that nobody who actually had direct higher-dimensional statements in-verse about themselves ever needed the Reality-Fiction Transcendence page to get the tier 1 that they belonged in. They didn't require such tool because they had nothing much to prove. Because on this wiki one serious / objective "X character is higher-dimensional / 5D / etc." statement / description is worth 5 times more than a series of feats and statements which do nothing but only imply that they refer to higher-dimensionality. The latter are merely considered "supporting" arguments that further enhance the validity of the former.
The new Reality-Fiction Transcendence page
Its only co-relation to the old page is really just thier shared names, because in reality they couldn't be more different than each other. The new R>F Transcendence page is no longer the friendly scapegoat used by characters to reach tier 1's and above without any direct higher-dimensionality statements being made about them. In fact, a character having direct and straightforward higher-dimensionality statements about them is the bare minimum they need to even qualify for using the new page. In a twist of events this page is now the biggest enemy of users of the old one.
TL'DR So, let's make it clear that we should no longer use the R>F Transcendence page in Architect arguments, because we would automatically refer to the new one.
And so, let's start discussing if the Real World is 5D without the R>F T page being a supporting argument. A very ugly and unavoidable truth is that there is no such thing as a direct higher-dimensional statement about Architect anywhere in the game (there's none for anything else in the verse, either. The writers are not fond of masturbating to battleboard-y wording and thus you can spot fabricated statements here from a mile away). All that we've got is implications that it is. Here's my 2 cents about why the Real World could be 5D:
- Architect's Existence Erasure via Plot Manipulation that works on the (potentially) 2-A world of Shadow Fight doesn't work on the Real World. Here there are four interpretations that can be taken away:
(1) the Real World simply exists within the 2-A Shadow Fight bubble and this gateway is not the 4th Wall being broken but a simple Dimensional Portal, meaning that any character with Dimensional Travel from Shadow Fight (which there are plenty) can simply pop into the Real World if they felt like it because they have the means to cross this barrier between his world and the Real World.
(2) the Real World exists within the 2-A Shadow Fight bubble, but is separated from all the universes in this bubble by the 4th Wall, meaning that a dimensional traveler from Shadow Fight cannot just enter the Real World because the barrier between his world and the Real World is of a whole different nature than the one he breaks whenever he wants to just go to another regular universe. They would need to break the 4th Wall first to be able to enter the Real World. Outside of Puppeteer who did go to the Real World, talked to the Player(s) via "the administration's" social media Shadow Fight account on VK and makes nods to the fictional nature of Shadow and Sensei in front of them, nobody from Shadow Fight has this ability.
(3) the Real World simply exists within the 2-A Shadow Fight bubble and this gateway is not the 4th Wall being broken but a simple Dimensional Portal. Yes this sounds similar to (1) but it is built upon the logic of (2). What if the barrier separating the Real World from any other universe in Shadow Fight is just a normal one like any other, but a prerequisite for a character to enter the Real World is for them to be 4th Wall Aware? To be honest it kind of makes sense. How can a character go to a world that they have no idea it even exists in the first place? How do they go to a place they have no idea where it exists? This reminds me of common tropes in cartoons where usually a character first looks at the audience, then becomes aware of the audience's existence / presence, and then out of anger punches and "shatters" the screen(s) of the audience because they feel like they are being laughed at. So if a character in Shadow Fight knows about the Real World, they can simply go there if they have Dimensional Travel as an ability.
(4) the Real World exists outside the 2-A Shadow Fight bubble. This is heavily implied by the in-game Architect event description, which states that he "invades the world of Shadow Fight 2". To "invade" refers to entering a place from outside of it. And the need for the description to mention that it's the world of "Shadow Fight 2" also implies that Architect comes from outside the game / series, and thus everything it encompases such as its 2-A structure. Okay, so the Real World exists outside of the 2-A Shadow Fight structure. This doesn't by default mean that it's above the Shadow Fight structure (which would make it 5D), but isn't it strange that a world (which mimics ours unlike the ones in Shadow Fight) whose people view a 2-A structure as an actual mobile game and is completely immune to the Plot hax of the guy who created said video game to not be anywhere near superior to said 2-A structure? It could've been any other type of world that existed outside of Shadow Fight which didn't view it as a mere fiction and had a guy do whatever he wanted with it, but it literally is just that. And even if you still don't want to rate the Real World at 5D, then how in the hell am I supposed to tier the range of Architect's Data Manipulation, when it takes place in the Real World and affects Shadow Fight in its entirety? Multiversal+, higher with Data Manipulation? Infinity+1?
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This. This is exactly what I was meaning to ask
Even if we put it as Infinity+1, it won't make sense unless the real world is 5D, otherwise Architect will be superior even to the "Real world".
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Bump. Come on guys, let's speed up the discussion
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Bumping once more
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So grimbago has confirmed that architect is indeed the screen writer and his appearance breaks the 4th wall. Imma just put this scan here just like that. Also this scan is TRANSLATED as the original scan was in Russian and this isn't fake before someone accuses me of that.
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I already put that in the page
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To be fair this is stuff we already know from the event. That is Architect's role and the event being a case of inverse 4th-wall breaking.
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Bump
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Yes but I don’t think we had a direct statement about these things so I think having a direct statement here clear a few things up. With this being said, it eliminates the 1st & 3rd possibility you proposed for sure. Now it’s either the 2nd possibility or 4th. Most likely the 4th in my opinion:
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So which interpretation do you personally think seems most reliable, and why?
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I personally don’t think it can be 1 or 3 as it got no 4th wall breaking and we have already shown that architect entering the sf world was a 4th wall break. The correct interpretation’s gotta be either 2 or 4.So which interpretation do you personally think seems most reliable, and why?
GarrixianXD
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Portal opening doesn’t mean anything itself.
Do you have any proof that this “4th Wall” works identical to a brane cosmology? If not, it is not Low 1-C. Perhaps it can be 5-D if you show a hyperspace containing the Multiverse, but then again, it’ll be 5-D on a very limited scale with its axis curled into its subset dimensions.
Really, none of this is even 5-D. Let alone Low 1-C. That Real World can simply mean an unknown universe with special properties.
Iirc, for a structure to be higher-dimensional, it has to encompass the lower-dimensional structure, not outside of it. This can simply mean the Real World is another universe beyond the known Multiverse.
The range can just be Multiversal+. R>F standards changed and the new rating qualifies for qualitative superiority instead, which in your case doesn’t apply at all. Considering the Real World is shown to share a continuity with the Shadow Fight multiverse, with disqualifies any qualitative superiority.
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Wasn't trying to prove 5D.
Wasn't trying to prove 5D.
Wasn't trying to prove 5D.
Great, thanks ! Since the question about the range has been bugging me for a while. It is what made me consider a 5D rating in the context of the portrayal of the Real World mimicking ours and its people being superior to the ones in the game via being immune to the Plot hax of the creator of the game. Also, I wasn't trying to prove a 1-A upgrade here - it is crystal clear that there is a continuity between SF and RW so it easily doesn't fit new R>F standards. Also, isn't the new R>F page strictly used to bump something / someone to tier 1-A? Are its new standards also used when bumping someone from e.g. Low 2-C to Low 1-C ? Because the page sure doesn't make any notion of that.
But anyways, in conclusion I solved my personal dilemma and will proceed to leave this thread. Architect Tier 1 proposals are to be dropped, leaving both him and Tenebris at their current physical tiers, while Architect should get a 2-A via hax tier (rewrites Shadow Fight with his Plot Manipulation and deletes the game with his Data Manipulation).
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@Dashio_Tessai
That seems fine to me. Are you willing to apply any required changes and useful explanations to our Shadow Fight pages, please?
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Sure thing.@Dashio_Tessai
That seems fine to me. Are you willing to apply any required changes and useful explanations to our Shadow Fight pages, please?
Tenebris' current tier and explanations found on his profile are just fine as they are. I wouldn't go as far as to say he could destroy all of Shadow Fight when using his full power since at least to me he doesn't have any bussiness holding so much strength that he could suddenly obliterate everything we see in Shadow Fight 3 just because he felt like it. Rather, I'd keep the influence of his peak power level over the worlds mentioned in the Underworld storyline (that being the "countless" alternate timelines that the Three Witch Sisters traveled to).
Architect's current tier is just him physically scaling somewhere above Tenebris via his role in the story. Alongside that another "2-B, possbily 2-A via Hax" tier should be given to him because both his Plot Manipulation and Data Manipulation can each cause Existence Erasure on Shadow Fight, as well as both of them being capable of creating it. I wouldn't really consider Architect to physically scale to those two abilities because he is only ever seen using Plot Manipulation as a thought-based ability, while the way he uses his Data Manipulation is even more obscure (as in we don't see him using it in real-time, although he technically uses it as a thought-based ability when he removes the co-op multiplayer aspect of his fight, mentioning that he and Shadow are going to fight by "his rules" right before it is revealed that there are no other players in the lobby).
2-B easily comes from Stranger creating half a bilion copies of himself by jumping in time, since in Shadow Fight every jump in time creates a separate timeline as well as a clone of the time traveler [1, 2]. And each one of those timelines contains 1000 timelines on their own, because the events of Shadow Fight 2 are prevalent across all timelines. And in the events of Shadow Fight 2 Titan conducts experiments on Shadows from 1000 different timelines - those Shadows we know are our protagonist Shadow, Assassin, Master, Guru, Corsair and Emperor, while the rest are failed experiments aka dead. Futhermore May only mentioned that Stranger created half a bilion copies of himself / timelines, but she didn't include in this equation Stranger's copies whom more often than not also end up performing time traveling (and copies of those copies also doing it), or other time travelers like Bolo and his clones.
2-A comes from the french localization of Shadow Fight 3, where the english "countless worlds (timelines)" statement from Mnemos is written as "infinité de mondes". There are so many "countless" or "endless" being used in the english localization to describe a number of elements, but "infinite" is never one of them. To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if they all meant "infinite" given how the french localization seems to be using this term instead of the former ones. There are also so many other languages the game is localized in so who knows just how many other usages of "infinite" to describe a number are out there. But unfortunately given just how slow it is to progress though this grindy game I'll never get my hands on the full story in all languages. I myself was only made aware about this french localization statement because of someone messaging me in private about it.
I've had someone ask me elsewhere about scaling Architect to the Great Empty Void from Underworld, but even if we were to consider it as responsible for creating all the worlds in Shadow Fight, it would be impossible to prove that it created them all at once, and not just doing a bunch of Low 2-C creation feats over a period of time. At least with Tenerbis we are lead to believe that in just one battle with Shadow if he were to use his full strength, the damage done would immediately be seen (aka destroying reality). And then there's the Void from Shadow Fight 3 and it's the same story. Sure all the timelines are created by it, but we cannot be sure just how many timelines it can create at the same time.
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Alright then, Tenebris and Shadow stay the same. As for architect, he gets "Low 2-C, possibly higher physically. 2-B, possibly 2-A with data manipulation and plot manipulation".
But I feel like this threads should stay open for a little longer, as I'm making a Q&A thread about the verse having a cyclical cosmos, I'd like to see the results and share it here.
But I feel like this threads should stay open for a little longer, as I'm making a Q&A thread about the verse having a cyclical cosmos, I'd like to see the results and share it here.
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Alright then. But I forgot to tackle Shadow's tier after this. I would suggest a "Low 2-C" upgrade for him from fighting and defeating Tenebris and Architect. He wouldn't 100% scale to Tenebris' "At least Low 2-C, possibly higher" tier since as I mentioned in this thread Shadow was helped by thousands of warriors in defeating Tenebris. And although he fights Architect alone I think I already made it clear in this thread that Architect was not taking the fight seriously.I would personally prefer if Dashio applies what has been accepted here.
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Can't tenebris tier also be 2-B since he is stronger than countess who created countless timeliness and each timeline contains thousands of worlds making a single one of them 2-B. She didn't create all of them at once but a single one can also be scaled to 2-B. What do u think?
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Has this been applied already?I would personally prefer if Dashio applies what has been accepted here.
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I've just made the changes.
If you refer to Countess creating a new timeline for each time jump made by her (since Underworld is now canon to SF3 it should have the same time travel mechanics), then that wouldn't count. Just like how Stranger isn't Low 2-C physically via time travel. It's just a time paradox that neither physically scales a time traveler to it, nor does it have any offensive properties to be listed as a hax-based tier.
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I believe Architect’s speed also needs to be changed, he must be superior to Arena characters too. Which should grant him Ftl speed.
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Thank you for helping out.
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I’ll leave the Q&A thread here, just in case anyone wants to check it out.
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I believe every character that is faster than arena characters (a huge chunk of the franchise) should be placed at least at ftl
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That dilemma is still going on.
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Grimbago smoking something unique here.
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At this point are we powerscaling a mobile game series based on casual messages sent on a Discord server, or based on what appears in said video games? You know, game developers spewing out nonsense about their verse's powerscaling is nothing new and has happened many times before (i.e. Ed Boon claiming in a Q&A that only Raiden is actually capable of surviving getting shot in the head).
And about the speed - do we even consider Arena as a canon game? They may have rebranded it to SF4: Arena to milk in more downloads but we all know that this is not a true sequel to the story, since the story of 3 is still ongoing (Plus SF: Shades is an actual canon game and it doesn't even have a number in its title. Adding a number to a title doesn't do jack to support its canonicity). It's just as non-canon as Underworld prior to this recent Shades event due to there being no mentioning of Arena's world and events in any of the other games.
And about the speed - do we even consider Arena as a canon game? They may have rebranded it to SF4: Arena to milk in more downloads but we all know that this is not a true sequel to the story, since the story of 3 is still ongoing (Plus SF: Shades is an actual canon game and it doesn't even have a number in its title. Adding a number to a title doesn't do jack to support its canonicity). It's just as non-canon as Underworld prior to this recent Shades event due to there being no mentioning of Arena's world and events in any of the other games.
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