Servants MFTL+ Rating

[Schnee_One]

Why tho?

Shouldn't they be MHS+ if they're comparable to The types or Archetype Earth? Which is where the 4B rating comes from? Or is that backwards scaling?

 

[ALRF]

I was talking about Kiara first key not her Beast one

The same for Tamamo, not her Amaterasu self

 

[Schnee_One]

Okay but that doesn't answer my question.

 

[ALRF]

I really don't understood why the Types weren't scaled to Saver/Kiara to MFTL+ previously if they were "comparable".

But anyhow, they should scale to their MHS+

 

[Schnee_One]

That's the issue, I don't know if it's backwards scaling

Like, the types are comparable to the 4B, but not the other way around?

 

[Reppuzan]

The Types are acknowledged as the strongest beings in the Nasuverse by the author himself. As a result, they should be superior to Beast-class Servants like Kiara who can make a Solar System orbit around herself while using her Noble Phantasm.

In addition, she's a Bodhisattva compared to Saver, who is stated to be a cosmic level being that governs entire solar systems.

 

[Schnee_One]

Then why weren't they MFTL+ in the first place?

 

[GalaxianAegis]

Also, forgive me if I'm wrong but don't Servants generally have faster combat speed than travel? Everyone is scaled to MHS, but Saber had to follow Iskandar on her motorcycle in Zero, and it took time to Jeanne to reach Romania in Apocrypha.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Galaxian

That's more authorial ignorance.

Servants with A-Rank speed like Enkidu can leap into low orbit in seconds and most Servants are relatively on par with each other in speed.

 

[ALRF]

I always had a problem with the Kiara rating...why do we don't seperate between her NP and base form?

It's not like she has shown any feat on the 4-B range without using her NP which is more of a special attack then anything...

Also scaling her from Types would be weirdest shit ever espicially (Ado and Gun God comes to mind), not to mention weird stuff like Kischur especially when he got lucky due to Crimson not knowing Magic.

Archetype Earth is actually said to "only have a slim chance of defeating Amaterasu" so i don't know why she is scales to her.

 

[SchroKatze]

Also... Gilgamesh is 5-A via "defeating planet-sized Kiara". But that never happened

 

[ALRF]

That Kiara thing is "another thing entirely" as the whole Earth shit stuff is really fake...

But let's not get into that, this is about speed and for C.C.C / Ishtar

 

[Reppuzan]

@ALRF

Because she's equal to an Earth Mother Goddess who has dominion over the Earth and can casually destroy it as BB did.

 

[ALRF]

BB destroyed Earth? Don't remember such thing...

Anyhow, like i said, this has nothing to do with AP so let's leave it alone.

For now this thread is only about speed

 

[SchroKatze]

Sorry for derailing.

 

[ALRF]

It's ok

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

I think I agree with the CCC stuff but I'm not sure.

Ishtar's NP should still be MFTL. She fires Venus to Earth, but before it hits it gets moved to the modern era through displacement magecraft. It doesn't teleport to modern era Earth.

Ado Edem is scaled because he one shot two Types. Gun God is not scaled to Types. Kischur is scaled because he stopped Brunestud's Moon Drop through brute force and fought him in single combat.

It's not Archetype Earth that has a chance against Amaterasu it's full power nerfed Arc on the Moon.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am with Reppuzan here. Archer flies at FTL speeds and confirms it.I am seeing a lot of a needless Travel Speed divide.

B.B ouright states she is FTL, and as others clarified, Ishtars arrow legit crossed the distance, rather than teleporting.

 

[ALRF]

Yeah, but we don't know what happened during that time. The feat is vague.

Yeah, BB says she goes lightspeed, but it's also vague.

Ishtar is just gonna be one of those "who agrees more"

 

[Reppuzan]

BB: Hmph. You still don't understand how wonderful the world I'm going to create will be? Then I'll give you a concrete demonstration. It's a special service just for you senpai ÔÖÑ

In the scene BB displays, people are disappearing one by one. Masters are disappearing from inside the school building, and that building is being further consumed by corrosion. BB has transported all of them to a world without anguish. …I don't see how that's different from "death."

And then, further, BB's power passes through the Moon Cell and reaches the Earth. A vast waterfall of black mud that spills forth from the moon over the earth. All classes of people who were accessing the network just stop moving. Physically, they're as healthy as they were before, but their hearts have already been drawn through the network into BB's "world without pretenses." They've stopped moving just like that, and abandoned living in their own bodies. Before my eyes a train conductor stops moving, and an accident occurs. The people running airport flight control stop moving, and countless planes crash. People working in factories stop moving, and toxic gas begins to escape. With just a few people losing their consciousness through the network, gradually all the corporations of the Earth begin to collapse. Traffic lights stop, and tanker trucks crash into buildings. With a thunderous roar the buildings go up in flames, and the surrounding area is consumed in fire.

She coats the Earth with black mud that wipes out everything.

She can also freely rewrite Earths' future with any of the futures recorded in the Moon Cell.

 

[ALRF]

She doesn't even destroy the Earth

She cover it with that mud that mindhaxed everyone, and then accidents started to happen all over the world.

 

[ALRF]

But please, let's stop the AP discussion. It is just derail at this point.

 

[Reppuzan]

@ALRF

Not to be rude or sound childish, but you brought it up first.

Besides, BB still scales from Ishtar, who can shoot the concept of a planet as a projectile even while severely nerfed as a Servant.

But whatever.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Actual honest-to-god dialogue:

"Did you move at faster-than-light speed?" - Person to Archer

"Yes, I moved faster than light." - Archer in response

The only way for the feat to be more obvious would be if he stated his own speed in numerical values

 

[ALRF]

I also said in my post let's not bring that up for now.

Don't think that's how it works. Even if nerfed, nothing entails about BB could be scaled from Ishtar NP.

And that if Ishtar NP is indeed MFTL+. Personally i don't think it is (among others think so too) but whatever on this.

 

[ALRF]

Actual honest-to-god dialogue:

"Did you move at faster-than-light speed?" - Person to Archer

"Yes, I moved faster than light." - Archer in response

The only way for the feat to be more obvious would be if he stated his own speed in numerical values

I really don't see how that debunks my "Servants are only MFTL+ Travel speed"

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

"Others agree"

How many people who agreed to your proposal have actually played, or read Extra CCC? Or know what actually happens there?

 

[ALRF]

Does that mean their opinion doesn't matter?

No, they are right now seeing this discussion, they still didn't change their vote. That means my arguments were solid enough to get their support

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I haven't seen any evidence of Moon Cell Archer only being FTL in Travel. Yes his feat isn't in combat but we routinely adopt travel feats for Combat in virtually every Verse.

 

[ALRF]

Did he maneuver? Did he went "zig zag" because of obstacles? No

Even more Nero outright goes "wtf happened?" Meaning her reactions=/= travel

Yes we do, but this one doesn't fit the trope as they have nothing to prove it, hell if anything most of them are either vague/don't react/done through hax.

 

[ALRF]

Bump

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

1) No but that doesn't really mean he can't reach that speed through other means. He moved faster than light, so he is faster than light.

2) Not at all. Archer doesn't do that, so that argument is weak and based on character personality.

3) Again, you seem to be mistaking how we scale Speed to Combat here. Archer can move at Massively FTL+ speeds. He should be able to dash, run, and even attack at such speeds, logically speaking, and other Servants can do battle with him.

We allow scaling from Travel Feats unless it is through special means or hyperspace or whatever.

 

[ALRF]

1)Who says otherwise? Travel only though

2) Based on what? Personality? Nero outrights states that she didn't know what happened the moment she crossed AKA she can't react to it, there is no personality here but a statement showing her inability to react to such thing

3) don't see any proof that he can attack at such speeds.

Or when characters haven't show such things/have feats that doesn't prove they can fight/react at such speed

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

I really wonder how they manage to land on a small platform, next to their Master, while flying at billion times FTL, if they only have hypersonic reaction speed.

They wouldn't even be able to land in the right solar system at that speed without proper reaction time.

Nero's statement is too vague.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Nor would they know where they were going if they did not have reactions. Archer clearly understood what he was doing and where he landed.

 

[ALRF]

It's not vague. It is clear and cut

Yeah, whats actually what's actually vague is what happened during that time they were traveling

 

[Kaltias]

Nero's statement is literally "I have no idea what just happened".

Not sure where the vagueness is

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

That's pretty vague.

 

[ALRF]

So is BB saying " i went lightspeed!" So is Archer saying "i went faster than light!"

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

Read Matthew's comments.

As to this whole downgrade thing. Well, long ago we had the same thing, and then someone made a thread and we agreed that it's outright MFTL+ speed, not just travel. Not sure how for how long we need to upgrade and downgrade the same thing over and over again.