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Servant Stat Scaling

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Now to be clear, I'm all for phasing out stat scaling in time with Prom's suggestions.

But I am extremely opposed to just ripping everyone's stats out without leaving a replacement.
 
^ I'm also against that (Most of stats shouldn't be changed THAT much) and the city level dura of those 4 Top Tiers.
 
A question though, if we're changing the attack potency and durability of these characters, wouldn't this also apply to the current method used to evaluate Servant speeds as well? We'll need a new standard to judge them by.
 
They'd all just stay scaled to their current speeds.

And I still disagree on giving Scathach, Karna, Arjuna, etc. durability any higher then their AP without solid evidence to back it up. They can harm each other with their basic attacks, right?
 
Arjuna, Cu Alter in base form and Scathach should at least have mountain level durability. Karna getting mountain level durability is a insane lowball, Vlad in Romania is stated to be comparable to Heracles in Greece and Artoria in Britain and Dracula Vlad was much stronger than regular Vlad and he at most managed to pierce Karna's foot.
 
I agree with no longer using stat scaling, and iirc some pages even mention that they have fought on par with someone with a higher rank
 
I still need to record the suggested changes on a page by page basis.
 
Okay.


Saber:

  • Fate: At least City level (Can fight against Lancer and deflect blows from Berserker), at least Mountain level (Split a cloud), likely Large Mountain level (The earlier feat was performed while Saber was low on mana; a fullpower blast should be much stronger) with Excalibur
  • Unlimited Blade Works: Mountain level (Comparable in strength to Berserker, who can destroy mountains), Large Mountain level with Excalibur
  • Heaven's Feel: Mountain level (Superior in strength to her normal self, easily cut through God Hand), at least Large Mountain level with Excalibur Morgan (Superior to regular Excalibur)
Archer: At least City level (Can parry attacks from Saber, Lancer, and Caster), up to Mountain level with Hrunting and Caladbolg II / Unlimited Blade Works (Comparable to Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon, presumably used to kill Berserker six times in Fate).

Lancer: At least City level (Can fight on par with Saber), higher when summoned in Europe (Would have strength on par with Saber at her peak and Berserker), with the Soaring Spear that Strikes with Death (Broke through all seven layers of Rho Aias, though this may be because of a battle of concepts), and with runes (Has a small chance of winning against Berserker).

Rider:

  • Shinji: At least City level (While weaker than she should be, she's still comparable to other Servants), higher with Bellerophon
  • Sakura: At least City level (Comparable to Saber and other Servants), at least Mountain level with Bellerophon (Overpowered Excalibur Morgan alongside Shirou's Rho Aias)
Caster: Mountain level (Overpowered Rin's gems easily, which can take a life off of Berserker, and can punch through Saber's Magic Resistance with her stronger spells. Her weaker Prisma Illya counterpart intended to annihilate Fuyuki City).

  • No "higher" necessary, these feats are just higher end Mountain level.
Assassi: At least City level (Fought on par with Saber and Archer, can barely redirect blows from Berserker, and can kill Saber with Tsubame Gaeshi).

True Assassi: At least City level (While he would lose against virtually any other Servant in combat, this is more just because he's not a straightforward combatant. Can briefly hold his own against other Servants in close combat).

Berserker: Mountain level (Can destroy a mountai and deflected a weakened Excalibur and weapons from the Gate of Babylon), higher with Nine Lives


Shirou Emiya:

  • Fate: Wall level (Stabbed Kirei with the Azoth Sword), at least Mountain level with Caliburn (Killed Berserker seven times over with one strike).
  • Unlimited Blade Works: Wall level, at least City level with Kanshou and Bakuya (Barely parried blows from Archer and Kuzuki, cut off Gilgamesh's arm), up to Mountain level with Unlimited Blade Works (Comparable to the Gate of Babylon, which was able to easily kill Berserker).
  • Heaven's Feel: Wall level, at least City level with Kanshou and Bakuya (Duplicates Archer's strength and managed to lethally injure Saber Alter in a Bad End, though he broke his mind and died in the process), Mountain level with Nine Lives and Excalibur Morgan (Killed Berserker with Nine Lives, destroying 80% of his body instantly, and destroys the Grail with Excalibur Morgan in the Normal End).
Rin Tohsaka: Wall level (Her magic output is far superior to Shirou and Kirei's), Mountain level with gems and prep (Took a life off of Berserker using multiple gems and managed to counter Caster's magic). At least Large Mountain level with Jeweled Sword Zelretch (Destroyed multiple Shadow Giants with a light that matched Saber's Excalibur)

  • The comparison of the sword and Excalibur was before she even used Welt Ende.
Sakura Matou: Wall level (Despite her virtually limitless magical energy, Sakura's output is only equal to Rin's), Unknow with the Shadow, at least City level with Shadow Giants (A single Shadow Giant is comparable to a Servant's Noble Phantasm; Lancer's Soaring Spear that Strikes with Death is average in destructive power for a Noble Phantasm).

Kirei Kotomine: Wall level (Can casually snap trees in half), much higher with mantra boosts (Can grow strong enough to defeat Ciel and True Assassin)

Souichirou Kuzuki:

  • Base: Wall level (Can keep up with Kirei and Bazett)
  • Amped: At least City level (Can overpower Saber and deflect Noble Phantasms from the Gate of Babylon)

Avenger:

  • Servant: At least Wall level (Claims to be the weakest Servant and has E-rank strength; however, even the weakest Servants are much stronger than humans). Unknow against humans (Although the weakest Servant otherwise, he is said to be the strongest when it comes to killing humans, on par in killing ability with Primate Murder and ORT, capable of killing even a hypothetical human stronger than any Heroic Spirit).
  • The Shadow: Unknow

Saber: Mountain level (Can fight on par with Lancelot, who has A-rank strength), at least Mountain level, likely Large Mountain level with Excalibur (Superior to her Excalibur in Fate/stay night).

Gilgamesh: At least City level (Comparable in strength to other Servants, but rarely fights in melee), up to Mountain level with Gate of Babylon (The Gate of Babylon's strongest treasures can easily kill Berserker). At least Small Island level with Enuma Elish, Planet level with full power Enuma Elish

Lancer: Mountain level (Fought on par with Saber, superior in firepower to Cu Chullain)

Rider: At least City level (Comparable in strength to other Servants), Mountain level with Gordius Wheel (Nearly knocked out Berserker with a single charge), higher with Via Expungnatio (Superior to his normal charges).

Caster: Wall level (Physically pathetic by Servant standards, but still much stronger than humans), up to City level with summons (In large numbers, his summons can threaten Servants, and the Gigantic Horror can swallow up all of Fuyuki City).

Berserker: Mountain level (Has A-rank strength, comparable to that of Heracles, and fought on par with Saber), higher with Arondight

Assassi: Wall level to at least City level (His strength varies depending on how many bodies he's divided into; at his strongest, he is comparable to other Servants, though unsuited for direct combat, while at his weakest, he is only stronger than humans).

I'll work on the rest later.
 
Please, if there's anything you disagree with, bring it up.
 
@Prom

About True Assassin, if I remember correctly, Kirei fought him by spamming Command Seal Mantra Boosts on himself. Wouldn't that rate Kirei as much higher?
 
Yeah, that seems reasonable.
 
@Prom

The big issue I have with this scaling is that he used a similar tactic against Kiritsugu, but obviously wasn't Servant level or else Kiritsugu would have been paste.

What does that do to him and the rest of the Fate/Zero's Masters?
 
We can just chalk it up to PIS and Avalon Regenerationn, I think.
 
I also realized another thing.

Should we take into account Ryuudou Temple's Anti-Spirit Bounded Field? It weakens all Servants entering it.
 
I forgot about that too. I don't think it'd be the biggest change, though? Archer still deflected Caster's more casual attacks.
 
Scaling to Saber in F/Z.
 
I have to ask this. Is having a master with a large mana reserve or whatever what makes Sabers "true" Excalibur attack High 7-A? It makes me wonder if something like "likely higher" or "likely much higher" could have been used instead, you know? Since we're saying that a much stronger blast would make it 10x powerful or something like it, right?

Actually, isn't the result with it like 380+ MT? If it was more on the higher end of Mountain level, i can see that. If it's just on the lower bounds of it as seen on the calc leading to it, i find it hard still to make it even "likely large mountain".

Everything else, the changes are fine to me as i said.

Also, we had a thread where Scarlet proposed having Saber getting something like "at least City+" with mana burst enhanced attacks. Is that something we're not adding to consideration here?
 
@Cross

The way I rationalize it, Excalibur under Shirou is barely able to kill Berserker twice in a bad end, while a fully charged Excalibur can kill him twelve times over with one hit. Hence it's several times more powerful.
 
CrossverseCrisis said:
Also, we had a thread where Scarlet proposed having Saber getting something like "at least City+" with mana burst enhanced attacks. Is that something we're not adding to consideration here?
Click to expand...
The reason I proposed that change is because Saber's armor withstood Ea's blast for a fraction of a second before starting to creak and break apart.

If his Enuma Elish is Large Mountain level that would mean her armor withstood At least 1000 Megatons (the very low end for Large Mountain, if there's an actual value feel free to use that one) for a fraction of a second.

Assuming the timeframe is 1/16th of a second (same timeframe used on that calc) that would mean her armor tanked at least 62.5 Megatons. That puts her armor rating to At least City level+, higher with Prana Bursts.
 
I think Cu should be Mountain level with runes because he managed to hold of a pissed Gil for half a day in the fate route. Which he most likely managed by using runes to augment his strength and make barriers.

Soaring Spear should be Mountain level normally. Because it should be vastly stronger than his regular attacks and should be somewhat comparable to his rune boosted version, if not the same since Runes only gives it a rank up but it doesn't mention its firepower increasing. And Rune boosted Soaring Spear can kill Heracles a few times.

As for the rest I'm mostly fine with them but I'm a bit iffy about Diarmuid being Mountain level.
 
I'm fine with the Cu being "At least 7-B, 7-A when summoned in Europe / with Soaring Spear of Striking Death / Runes".

I get that, but if we scale Lancelot to Berserker that's what happens.
 
Since Vlad is stated to be comparable to Heracles in Greece I think he along with anyone that scales in Apocrypha should be also be rated as 7-A.

After I reread the LN I don't have any other problems considering Diarmuid was winning against Saber who managed to defend and not instantly die against Lancelot when he was using Arondight.
 
I'll be getting to that.
 
@Scarlet: I'm pretty sure the reason why Saber's armor dura is like City level is because the OBD/Narutoforums commute doesn't consider the idea of a "FP (full power)" Excalibur to be that of Large Mountain. Assuming they have such rating over there, i mean.

If anything, a new calc using High 7-A Excalibur needs to be done most likely as they're using the value from the calc'd result. Not us assuming High 7-A value/rank.

Other than that, i'm fine with everything else as is once again.
 
@Cross Well Lina said he was gonna get around to calcing Saber's Excalibur ages ago :(

Other than that, the current proposed changes look fine to me as well.
 
He probably forgot or hasn't gotten to it just yet due to being very busy atm so idk what else to do with it...
 
I'll get the next chunk of Servants listed soon.

Another thing; Dead Apostles and stuff have Type 4 immortality listed for no reason, so I'll remove it.
 
I agree with the removal if there's no justification anywhere on their page for it.
 
The only ones who should have Type 4 are Arc and the Types, why Zelretch or Wallachia have it is beyond me.
 
Well, why would even the Types have it? Lacking a concept of death =/= being immortal due to godhood or something like that.
 
Sorry, I'm having a long day. I'll get to the other things when I have the time and energy.
 
So i take it other things gotta be taken cared of first before to here?

Not to sound impatient, but this came to mind again on the state of the profiles that are gonna be affected here and such...
 
I had some thoughts to share on some events of Extella that affect the aspects of some Extra characters, should I share those here or make another thread regarding those?
 
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