Servant Stat Scaling

[Promestein]

It's dumb.

Every other verse is slowly phasing out stat scaling, which is good, because it's super unreliable and inconsistent.

There are so many instances of servants with C-rank (or lower) strength managing to parry blows from and injure servants with B-rank strength and endurance. Even if it's just "parrying", they should be closer than the sizeable gap between Town and At last City level. Even Shirou (with Kanshou and Bakuya) lethally injured Saber Alter (though she just regenerated). He also cut off Gilgamesh's arm with Kanshou and Bakuya, and stabbed him. Archer shot him in the face with a regular arrow. And so on.

With the exceptions of the actually (comparatively) physically pathetic Servants (Hans Christian Anderse, Angra Mainyu, Gilles, Medea, etc.), I think pretty much every Servant should be boosted to either:

• At least City level, through scaling to the various City level feats and numerous City level characters
• Mountain level, through scaling to Berserker and Saber Alter

This, of course, also affects the characters who can fight with Servants (Aoko, Kouma, Dead Apostle Ancestors, etc).

I'll try to get a better listing of the exact changes, but the point is that we shouldn't rely on stat scaling.

Other things that may as well be here:

• I don't know why Pre-Tsukihime Arcueid is listed as arbitrarily stronger than Berserker. It should be because she's comparable to the combined forces of four Servants.
• The "Top Servants" (Scathach, Arjuna, Karna, Cu Alter, etc.) shouldn't have Country level durability. Scathach got blasted apart by a Country level attack and only survived due to regen. Karna got lethally injured by a Country level attack when he was wearing his extremely durable and helpful armor that amplifies his defenses by a massive amount, and though he kept on going, that's stamina, not durability. Yes, they can fight against each other! But Noble Phantasms are their ultimate weapons, why would that scale to their durability? Their durability should be scaled down to the same level as their base AP, otherwise, fighting in any other method but their Noble Phantasms would be pointless.
• Nobody paid attention to my thread on Melty Blood stuff, so here it is. The Building level Tsukihime / Melty Blood characters should be downgraded to Wall level, I don't think there's any Building level feats but they're definitely superior to poor magi like Kirei.
• Servants are immune to conventional, non-magical weapons; all of the ones that this applies to (literally all of them, I think?) should get Intangibility. They can also ignore Intangibility.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Well along with the speed scaling problems of the this verse, i find this reasonable enough to go for this.

But do like to hear others on what they think of this here.

 

[FateAlbane]

While on topic - and I agree with this revision - shouldn't the Servants/Heroic Spirits also get time paradox immunity by virtue of:

1. Being removed from the axis of time.

2. Not being the same being as their past incarnation of legend.

3. Not necessarily having existed, they can be pretty much just the legend that people believe given form.

""Heroic Spirits are beings of a higher existence, becoming categorically closer to Elementals than wraiths. Differing from how Elementals are "power" granted form using human imagination as a container, they are entirely woven from the ideals of people all throughout. They are freed from the constraints of time itself and removed from the ring of reincarnation, moved to the Throne of Heroes (Þï▒Ú£èÒü«Õ║º, Eirei no Za?), a place existing outside of both the World and the time axis."

 

[Promestein]

Maybe? That's more referring to their true selves in the Throne of Heroes, though, yeah?

 

[FateAlbane]

I think it applies, because as I pointed out in another thread out there, Archer most likely wouldn't cease to exist even if he went and killed Shirou in UBW.

Reppu had this to say:

"I'm actually not sure on this one.

It's true that Gil isn't the original Gil from Babylon. He is an extremely well-done copy of his soul, body, and abilities created by the Holy Grail. In addition, Servants are stated to have "transcended time and space" to arrive on the battlefield of the Holy Grail War.

That said, not all Servants are immune to time paradoxes since Beast-class Servants have an ability that explicitly prevents them. In addition, when Solomon sacrificed his existence on the Throne of Heroes, Goetia, his creation that was transcribed into a legend and manifested as a Beast-class Servant, was crippled.

All in all, it's a maybe yes, maybe no."

That's why I brought this up.

 

[Promestein]

"I think it applies, because as I pointed out in another thread out there, Archer most likely wouldn't cease to exist even if he went and killed Shirou in UBW."

Archer's from a different timeline anyways, so that's not really a valid point.

It seems just flowery outside of their true selves.

 

[FateAlbane]

Sure thing, I'll be okay whether this point gets through or not. Just bringing it up, too, since it would be a revision for servants in general as well. Other than that, I agree with the changes suggested here.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Prom

While I agree with this, it doesn't help that there are numerous characters (i.e. a lot of Fate/Grand Order Servants) that lack sheer destructive feats due to not being integral to the story (at least at the time of their release).

The Stat Scaling is meant to provide ballpark numbers until they actually get feats.

In addition, it's still logical in numerous cases (i.e. Saber under Rin stomping Archer and shattering his swords with ease).

 

[Promestein]

That's true. We can just use it to assist with scaling instead of relying on it entirely.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Promestein's Original Post and I also agree that the Servants aren't Acausal (Sorry, I mean "timeparadoximmune") except for their true selves.

 

[FateAlbane]

Agreed, then.

Though True Selves would affect who (if anyone)? Mythic Formal Wear servants or Original Gilgamesh?

 

[Reppuzan]

@Fate

Mythic Formal Wear and Full Power CCC Gil involved using the Root of the Beginning to buff up an existing Servant, so they're still Servants and not the "true selves" of the originals.

 

[FateAlbane]

Right, then it stays the same for everyone. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Alright so...what's the thought now of the current proposed revisions here including that of Prom's other one that, of course unsurprisingly enough like most in general still, didn't get enough attention on?

 

[Promestein]

I'd appreciate some help with the pages if this goes through, as well. I'll try to compile a list of Servant changes before then.

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

Is this useful?

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Hmm...i have three things that i'm wondering about:

1) What would Arcuid(?) be instead aside from scaling from Heracles?

2) So we put Arjuna, Karna, and Scatatch (Oh dear, there goes me and my problems of not spelling names right...) to City level via their Dura or something like that of the sort? If so, do we specify things of the whole armor part of Karna and the regen thing of Scatatch on how that was what allowed her to survive a 6-B attack?

3) Servants being intangible will be able to have ignoring intangibility due to being able to...harm each other when they're all like that...if i made it clear enough of what i re-read above?

 

[Promestein]

1) "7-A", because she's as strong as four servants combined.

2) At least City level for Scathach, Mountain level for Karna and Arjuna.

3) They can wound other Servants with any weapon due to their magical natures.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

@Prom: Hmm.

1) I can see that as being used to either replace the Berserker scaling or further justify her ranking for 7-A then.

2) Oh yeah, cool.

3) Ahh. Well in that case, that works with me finely.

The one of the Melty Blood rankings going down via scaling to Kirei is perfectly fine as far as i can tell.

What's the case of the main issue here, which is the stat scaling one as you put? I kind of got lost after the mention of time paradox immunity servants got put up here...

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Mountain level durability Karna seems like a low ball. Otherwise I mostly agree with everything including time paradox immune true heroic spirits and servant intangibility. But I still think we should use the stats to assist with scaling.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Ramesses

Siegfried did manage to leave minor cuts on him and vice versa, so I think it's fair.

 

[Promestein]

Mountain level physically. Much higher with his armor.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Dracula Vlad barely managed to damage him with his physical strikes and the stakes he threw that where stated to have power comparable noble phantasms didn't really deal any real damage. Atalanta would need super charged prana arrows to wound him while she only needs to draw the bow to its limits to damage Siegfried.

 

[KamiYasha]

I think the stat scaling is fine. I mean, we only use stat scaling with characters who don't have feats though we still mention it on their profiles.

Shiro stats are...ehh, you can consider him hurting Saber Alter PIS, same with Gil (+ not using his armor).

Pre-Tsukihime Arc only uses 30% of her normal power, that being said, at this level she is stated to have the fire power of around 4 combined servants + being able to face Gil but with trouble due to GoB.

The thing with this "Top Servants" is that they have showed to have a superior durability compared to their normal Ap. Durability is the property which guarantees the ability to survive, Karna surviving Cu Alter's Np, Scathach surviving Cu Alter's 2nd Np (depsite of of both being injured) and with none of them having a notable regen unlike Cu Alter shows their current durability.

I guess you mean White len, Ren, Sion and those characters, right? If so, i guess that should be fine.

 

[Promestein]

... No, we use the stat scaling for everyone.

We may as well consider all of his feats PIS then. (Even though him lethally injuring Saber Alter happens in a bad end and has no bearing on the plot or anything at all).

I know.

No. Durability is what you can take without being injured. You may as well say someone's Planet level durability because they regenerate from having their head punched off by a Planet buster.

Yes.

 

[Reppuzan]

Also out of curiosity, Akiha is 9-A for being compared to Ciel, who's 8-C. I'm guessing she's going to be downgraded too, right?

 

[Promestein]

Yes. Ciel, too (At least 9-B, likely higher. At least 7-B, likely higher with magic).

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Agree with the suggested changes.

 

[NotEvenHuman]

Cu Alter's NPs shouldn't be Country level in the first place, since the scaling for that is completely baseless, so it really doesn't matter if Karna and Scathach surviving them is durability or stamina.

 

[KamiYasha]

Acording to the Durability page:

Durability is the property which guarantees the ability to survive a certain amount of force.

In the feats that i mentioned no one is relying upon regen to survive.

 

[Promestein]

That description is not accurate. It should be "the ability to withstand a certain amount of force", as that is how we use it.

Scathach survived due to immortality and Regenerationn.

Karna was still lethally injured.

And if they're not Country level anyways it's irrelevant.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Scathach didn't even get hit by super gae bolg. She was skewered by C├║ alters fancy armour.

 

[KamiYasha]

Then i guess the description of Durability should be changed.

Again no regen from Scathach, i mean, every servant even Saber while being with Shiro as a master is able to regenerate though it takes a shit lot of time (days).

While i guess the downgrade has some sense, City level is a complete lowball. the average servants have City level Dura, they should be at least superior or equal to Demon Gods, the hell, even Cu Alter becomes a Demon God at some point.

 

[Promestein]

I changed it.

Then why is it listed on her page.

Well, yeah, but their durability is on par with their physical strength that way. More reasonable than arbitrary Demon God scaling.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Hehehehe...

 

[GalaxianAegis]

I agree that the Servant stat scaling should be done away with. It's clear that the stats do not represent the Nasuverse well in trying to scale across it because too many exceptions exist.

Unless someone has a higher shown feat, such as the Top Servants with their Noble Phantasms, everyone should be around the same place.

 

[Thebluedash]

Stat scaling is really inconsistent in my opinion. So for example if a character is A class, they can be mountain level with no feats.

And at times a C Class can fight with an A Class, so we scale the C Class to the A class, but why not the other way around?

If a C Class can stronger than ranked, why can't an A Class supposedly be weaker than their rank? The ranks are honestly inconsistent and probably shouldn't be used.

If the character has no feats, just leave them as unknown, it's better than using these inconsistent stats.

 

[Ryukama]

Prom and Blue seem to make sense.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I can see where Blue is going with this in a way. It's sort of like the thing we have with Marvel now.

Though idk if i can agree completely for ones that don't have feats to go by such as the servants that appeared in F/GO...

 

[Reppuzan]

@Bluedash

The thing is, these stats tend to be consistent.

Characters with B-Rank Strength tend to be able to clash with those with A-Strength. And those with A-Rank Strength can easily beat down characters with C-Rank Strength and durability. Hence why even a glancing blow from Berserker was able to break Archer's arm and why Assassi was completely unable to do more than slightly redirect the force of Berserker's blows so that he wouldn't be struck with backing from Caster.

Of course, there are outliers, but these are the exceptions to the rule rather than a case of the system itself being broken.