SCP Another Big Revision

[Sir_Ovens]

Probably not. 3999 is not pataphysical in-universe. It's just a meta article about the fatigue of writing on the site.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

I thought this would have much more discussion honestly
There is like 20 new high 1-As - 0s bruh

 

[Sir_Ovens]

We're waiting for Ultima to comment. He has been made aware of this thread and said he will respond soon.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Trust me I wish there wasn't this much scaling but 3125 is too OP and it breaks my soul.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Trust me I wish there wasn't this much scaling but 3125 is too OP and it breaks my soul.

How op?

 

[Wardokman69]

How op?

It is so big to the point that it dwarfed the noosphere(H1A construct) and eat it. It also being big enough to affect semiosphere and patasphere. At least it would be a layer above baseline 0, and higher as the Constant.

 

[Wardokman69]

Probably not. 3999 is not pataphysical in-universe. It's just a meta article about the fatigue of writing on the site.

Wasn't it's Extended Canon key scale to the Yesod Multiverse?

 

[Greatsage13th]

It is so big to the point that it dwarfed the noosphere(H1A construct) and eat it. It also being big enough to affect semiosphere and patasphere. At least it would be a layer above baseline 0, and higher as the Constant.

Holy smoking smoke that Is pretty op.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Wait, are the 3125 levels high 1-A or 0?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Wait, are the 3125 levels high 1-A or 0?

Baseline 0 it seems

 

[Wardokman69]

Wait, are the 3125 levels high 1-A or 0?

Both. at least High 1-A possibly 0

At least High 1-A for being several magnitude bigger than the noosphere.

Possibly 0 for affecting Semiosphere and Patasphere.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Wasn't it's Extended Canon key scale to the Yesod Multiverse?

It used to but like. That made no sense, 3999 isn't featured in the Djoricverse. There is a reason why we dropped that.

I'm sure there could be some way to scale 3999 to funny stuff but there isn't any useable evidence for that yet.


Also 3125 didn't affect the Patasphere that we know of, no. Only the Semiosphere via ******* with the Surrealistics dude.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

For your crimes of derailing this thread with WoD shit again you must accept following this thread until the end of times.

SCPcels be seething over WoDchads.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Most of this seems surprisingly fine by me. Although I've got a few things I want clarified before I hit this with the "Okay" button.

Namely the fact that, from what I see, 3125 scaling to the Semiosphere seems to be a tad weird, given that it's very specifically stated by Placeholder to be an aspect of the Constant of Chaos that's exactly as large as the Noosphere, unless the idea is supposed to be that 3125's AP is higher than its actual state of existence, which doesn't seem to be the case given its placement in your diagram. If I'm to take that drawing at face value, then I'd have to question the idea that the Semiosphere transcends the Noosphere to begin with, as well. Granted, Placeholder did say he's been refining all of this stuff as he went along, so this statement in particular may be subject to that.

Branching off of that: If 3125 is exactly as large as the Noosphere, and yet is presumably the largest of the people residing in 5800 (Since those beings are the starfish's angels), would the hierarchy of aleph numbers that they are/base themselves on be contained in the Noosphere itself?

About the Universe Prime stuff: I'm leaning towards the opinion of it not being developed enough as a concept to be indexed at the moment, myself. Placeholder seems to describe it as being a singular consciousness that imagines the entire system of narratives and contains them within its mind, while Ike looks like he takes the "Universe" bit a little more literally and instead has it be a plane of existence where multiple beings reside (So much so that his sandbox has a designation for a potential catastrophe where all sentience in Universe Prime dies out, even). Not sure that anyone cares much for it, anyway, but those are my two cents on the matter, nevertheless.

 

[Rabbit2002]

Even IS/IS NOT and Paragons from Kaktusverse and All-Mighty/TBD/SK/ISabel/HEG from djoricverse still downscale from Patasphete (below Patasphere)

 

[Swerzye29038]

Finally, the SCP Verse will stand a chance against Minions: The Rise of Gru (Despicable Me Mythos)

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Place saying 3125 is exactly the size of the Noosphere is sorta of a weird take from him that's contradicted by some stuff on the SCP Wiki and even himself to some degree. The Surrealistics tale shit directly contradicts this by stating SCP-3125 to be bigger than human brains, SCP-5712 fodders can eventually consume the entire Noosphere (and I doubt that this would make them jump to be equal to 3125, if it were that easy) and his own interview implies that WILD LIGHT defeated 3125 through becoming big enough to understand 3125, implying the Noosphere is otherwise unable to do so.

I'd generally consider the above statement to refer to some incarnations of 3125 only. We already know smaller sized 3125 exists, so the main incarnations of 3125 being bigger than the Noosphere isn't an absurd idea.

Although regardless, I'd say that the Semiosphere's relationship with stuff outside the Noosphere is a bit nebulous. I portrayed them as physically bigger spheres, but they're more so often described as layers of reality, with the Semiosphere having precedence over the Noosphere, and the Patasphere having precedence over the Semiosphere and Noosphere. So I'm not 100% sure if raw size is all that matters in this relationship, although I'd still rather go with the above interpretation. At the very least, the Semiosphere has greater control over reality than the Noosphere, so it's stronger than it at least in this sense.

I guess that if we did consider 3125 = to the Noosphere then the 5800 hierarchy would be comparable to it in size but I'm not too sure about it. I know a Third Law tale did use alephs to compare conceptual presence though.

Fair enough for Universe Prime though, I suppose.

 

[Timeless]

Most of this seems surprisingly fine by me. Although I've got a few things I want clarified before I hit this with the "Okay" button.

Namely the fact that, from what I see, 3125 scaling to the Semiosphere seems to be a tad weird, given that it's very specifically stated by Placeholder to be an aspect of the Constant of Chaos that's exactly as large as the Noosphere, unless the idea is supposed to be that 3125's AP is higher than its actual state of existence, which doesn't seem to be the case given its placement in your diagram. If I'm to take that drawing at face value, then I'd have to question the idea that the Semiosphere transcends the Noosphere to begin with, as well. Granted, Placeholder did say he's been refining all of this stuff as he went along, so this statement in particular may be subject to that.

Branching off of that: If 3125 is exactly as large as the Noosphere, and yet is presumably the largest of the people residing in 5800 (Since those beings are the starfish's angels), would the hierarchy of aleph numbers that they are/base themselves on be contained in the Noosphere itself?

About the Universe Prime stuff: I'm leaning towards the opinion of it not being developed enough as a concept to be indexed at the moment, myself. Placeholder seems to describe it as being a singular consciousness that imagines the entire system of narratives and contains them within its mind, while Ike looks like he takes the "Universe" bit a little more literally and instead has it be a plane of existence where multiple beings reside (So much so that his sandbox has a designation for a potential catastrophe where all sentience in Universe Prime dies out, even). Not sure that anyone cares much for it, anyway, but those are my two cents on the matter, nevertheless.

Do you have a link to his Sandbox?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I literally linked it in the CRT smh.

(Do note that it's kinda outdated in some regards. Notably the "Noosphere" described here would actually be the Patasphere. Its description here 100% match the Patasphere in later descriptions and doesn't match the actual Noosphere at all)

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I'm not sure how we prioritize the antimemetics division/qntm vs placeholder, but 3125 has been pretty consistently shown to dwarf the noosphere in size. 3125 came to contain all of human thought inside it prior to its fight with WILD LIGHT

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Normally I'd prioritize the latter Place stuff for being more refined and consistent with most modern portrayals. But that specific take just feels kinda weird, even with his own stuff. Like 6820, a similar-ish idea, is straight-up bigger than the Noosphere.

So like I said I'd rather take the more common on-site interpretation than Place's WoG for this specific bit (or at least interpret it as a weaker 3125).

 

[Nkiratina]

Sorry if this derails or something similar.

But I want to ask if this revision would affect the Passive Plot Manipulation of the protagonists?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Uh. A few things about that:

1. It would scale to the Patasphere, so the hax would be At least High 1-A, possibly 0. Technically a higher tier but relatively lower in scope in the SCP verse itself, being limited to a singular Canon.

2. It's nowhere near as strong as it's portrayed in Strongest threads. It gives resistance to plot hax and makes other entities in reality arrange themselves to help the protagonist reach the apex of their story arc. But that doesn't necessarily mean a victory in a VS Match and absolutely doesn't make a 10-B character win against any high-tiered opponents.

 

[Nkiratina]

2. It's nowhere near as strong as it's portrayed in Strongest threads. It gives resistance to plot hax and makes other entities in reality arrange themselves to help the protagonist reach the apex of their story arc. But that doesn't necessarily mean a victory in a VS Match and absolutely doesn't make a 10-B character win against any high-tiered opponents

So the hax(in the second case of being a protagonist) in a versus would at best lead to an inconclusive result?

Or am I misunderstanding it?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Eh. I've seen people interpret it like that but I kinda disagree. In order for this Plot Hax to actually intervene in a match:

1. The character's "story arc" would need to be unfinished when the match is set. And in a lot of cases we'd assume the version of the character used would be after their respective story is done anyway.

2. The character losing would mean their character act is left unfinished. Which doesn't have to be the case. Death to a character stronger than themselves can be a reasonable way for a character's arc to end. In fact, several SCP protagonists end up dead by the end of their series.

3. The character's arc can't be completed after a loss by our standards. The character could be resurrected, freed from the BFR or whatever well after our condition of victory for the match and then have their arc completed. Or simply have events after their death complete their arc.

And even if all of those were true, we don't know how far the Plot Hax can twist the plot (without direct author intervention, which isn't part of their power set) in order to make the Protagonist win. So assuming things would somehow prevent them from losing to something trillions of times stronger and faster than themselves is sorta dumb. Arguably this plot hax would have prevented the match from occurring in the first place but it did anyway, so.

I'd say that this plot hax would make things fall in their favor, but only within the realm of possibility. IF the above 3 are true, then they'd win if it's reasonably possible for them to win. But if it's just impossible then nah. But you could easily argue the above 3 aren't true in a given matchup.

 

[Rabbit2002]

Bump

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Just waiting on Ultima.

 

[CosmicWreck]

Just waiting on Ultima.

Er...what? Didn't he reply already?

Anyway, thanks for all your hard work. Here's my take on a few things.

This CRT mostly involves implementing more stuff regarding the big cosmological stuff. As well, applying the big lore regarding Pataphysics and Noospherics of Placeholder (an SCP author) into our profiles, since it's practically the Theory of Everything canon of SCP, trying to fit an explanation for every canons in the verse, even contradictory ones. By that canon's logic, every story on the SCP Wiki happened in some timelines in that cosmology. So for the most part, we apply the logic of this cosmology to our profiles. Only when the canon completely rejects the Place canon we don't fully apply it.

We should probably note it on the profile page somewhere to indicate that we're just conforming to one particular, seemingly overarching canon to decrease confusion (or at least link to this thread) but otherwise seems fair enough.

This CRT is kinda WoG heavy, with some of the info here not being present on the SCP Wiki proper yet. It's kinda unavoidable, due to the nature of the SCP Foundation being 80% made out of in-universe text that can't exactly be portrayed in articles in a natural way. As well, a lot of the information here is already used as a blueprint for certain others wanting to contribute to this cosmology anyway, so using it should be fine.

Many SCPs like 3500, 5466 and Place himself uses the SCP wiki itself and/or it's forums as an in-universe place. I don't think you have to worry about that. It's the reddit link I'm kind of uncertain about (though SCP has used such links in OverMeta).

In short, the Noosphere is the realm of platonic ideas which transcends and manipulates all of the physical world, with it being merely a shadow of itself. As this includes an essentially arbitrary number of space and time dimensions, this makes the Noosphere itself 1-A. This would mean that all mental/informational entities would be 1-A, albeit limited to mental realms and unable to directly interact with physical realities for most of them.

You should have noted or linked that we would be using S and C's Plastics depiction of uncountable dimensions being relegated to a single narrative. Saying the number of space and time dimensions are arbitrary is unnecessarily vague. It's not like there can't be more than an uncountable number of dimensions (technically).

The gist of it is that SCP-3812 makes no sense in the Placeholder's Narrative cosmology. In Place's cosmology, narrative levels are very strictly defined. Authors use a pool of the energy of their own universe in order to create lower universes. Lower beings simply physically cannot reach higher levels of reality than their author. It's just straight up not possible. So SCP-3812 is not possible in Place's model.

SCP-3812 was offered as a way to destroy the LolFoundation universe so where the events of that article occurred in Place's timeline of events, if it occurred at all, is unknown.

And as the Serpent, a being embodying Information (Here), is stated to be the representation of IS's truth (Here) and has helped shape reality (Here), it is very likely that Information is a concept that precedes SCP-3812 as a whole. Therefore, the Noosphere (the set of information inside human heads) transcending SCP-3812's hierarchy is consistent even in its own lore.

SCP-3812 would no longer scale above the Noosphere or Infosphere, which would be intact as determined by Place's model. His own feats of transcending infinite layers, which themselves transcend over physical dimensions, would still make him 1-A, eventually 1-A+. Back to his old tier. You could argue he eventually transcends the very narrative stack by the end, but I don't really agree with that. So 1-A+ only for now.

Why? It's quite blatant that he would transcend the narrative stack.

I'm sorry, I think I've ****** up pretty badly this time. I've tried everything I can think of, but I can't undo Him. I don't really understand how, but I think He's above me now, and whatever is above me, too, because whoever wrote my narrative isn't happy about this. I don’t know where He’s at now, but I think He exists in all of our realities simultaneously. Eventually He’ll either reach the top or just keep going, and neither option is good.

There is more evidence for the latter than the former.

SCP-3812: It will, for a time. We may have forgotten so much about being human, but something we will never lose is our ability to change. Eventually, we will learn to keep up. One sunny day, we’ll open our eyes and see nothing but creation below us, and nothing above us but ourselves, spinning out wildly into the great above.

More importantly though, this would make sense story-wise considering he was literally created to transcend himself to discover and surpass the limits of reality. The infinite metaphysical layers as depicted in the story are an unnecessary lowball tbh.

Noospheric entities and SCP-3812 should all be High 1-A entities, imo.

Semiosphere & Patasphere

In short, the Semiosphere includes the very logic behind mathematics and the information of the Noosphere. It easily manipulates the system of logic behind the Noosphere. And so according to those weirdo new standards, this allows it to essentially jump the hierarchy of the Noosphere. While it isn't entirely clear, this would place the Semiosphere at possibly High 1-A should the Noosphere be 1-A, and possibly Tier 0 should the Noosphere be High 1-A.

To my knowledge there is no hierarchy of the Noosphere except for maybe in article SCP 4755 but there no comparison between the layers was given.

Still, no. Even assuming High 1-A SCP 3812 it would be only be a single degree of infinity above an n (likely >=2) number of layers in the High 1-A realm which is not enough for tier 0.

The Patasphere is sorta hard to define tier-wise. It is certainly bigger in scope than the Semiosphere, making it possibly High 1-A or possibly Tier 0 (Here) (Here, scroll down to the English tab). Now one could argue that the Patasphere transcends the Semiosphere on a higher degree than just being bigger. The Patasphere, corresponding to the universe's fictional dimension, is essentially the canvas on which the entire universe, including the other spheres, exists upon. It is literally the medium in which the rest of reality exists on, where anything in it is just pure whim from the authors (Here). And while similar reasoning was used by other characters in order to reach high tiers, I don't think there is quite enough info about it in order to make this same judgment here. So the Patasphere would only be "At least [Whatever tier the Semiosphere ends up being]".

So essentially. The Semiosphere should possibly entirely transcend the entire system that supports Noospheric ideas. And thus be possibly High 1-A/possibly 0. The Patasphere should be superior to the Semiosphere, with an "At least" of the tier of the Semiosphere.

No, since it's not even infinitely into tier High 1-A it cannot be At least High 1-A.

Everything else seems fine.

Constants

Constants are a new type of beings that are super relevant to the Placeverse. And they're new keys for a selection of beings, acting as their true form. The Constants are multiversal entities that exists in the Infosphere in the Founndation Placeverse. They exist across every single timelines there and manifest in various antagonistic forms in order to be opposed by the Foundation (Here).

There are three known Constants right now. The Constant of Termination, behind SCP-6820-A and thus SCP-682. The Constant of Anafabula, behind SCP-2747 and thus the Scarlet King. And the Constant of Chaos, behind SCP-3125. All of those beings would have a Constant Key. They would have limited Type 9 Immortality based on the Constant, as well as the ability to actually become one with the true form of these Constants through amassing enough power. The Constants would have the same abilities as informational entities like SCP-3125, except on a greater scope.

The Constants should scale way above the Semiosphere and Patasphere, as their influence covers an infinite amount of SCP timelines and define them. They also exist on an infospheric level, which precedes the narrative level of reality, possibly making them transcend the Patasphere (Here, scroll down to the English tab). This would make them "1-A, possibly High 1-A" and "High 1-A, possibly 0", depending on which ends up happening. They also scale directly to SCP-5650, as it is a Fifthist anomaly, and the Constant of Chaos should cover all Fifthist anomalies.

You could argue them to be straight up 0 if you wanted, due to transcending the Patasphere, which transcends the Semiosphere, which transcends the Noosphere and so on. But eh. It's not any more solid than previous things.

This also brings up a problem I noticed earlier. Basically, where does SCPs 5712 and 5800 fit in. They are also deemed infosphere (well, in 5712 it is and it directly links to 5800) which would make SCP 3125>the patasphere which kind of contradicts SCP 5875 (or any depiction, really) where it's narrative dimensions weren't deemed anything particularly special.

However, it does have some rather dire consequences for some things. Namely, the True Authors as they stand shouldn't be a thing anymore. It was based on the idea that there was a truer form of Swann in SCP-5500 which might or might not transcend the entire stack. But given the Proxyverse, it's far more likely that the True Authors are just Swann, while the author entities being interacted with are just the Proxyverse or even worse, some made up "fake" Swann layer. Either way that Key needs to go. The Proxyverse key would replace it.

The Narrative beings should also entirely transcend the highest tier of the SCP narrative. To them, the strongest of Constants is as fictional as the weakest of lower dimensional beings. So if we accept only 1-A, the narratives should remain High 1-A. If we accept High 1-A, they should be Tier 0. If we accept Tier 0, well, yeah.

Good since the Swann profile needs a major revision tbh. It looks like it hasn't been updated since 2017 and even then not very well which is kind of absurd as the one of the strongest god tiers of the verse.

For one thing, "narrative" being is kind of a misnomer since almost everything in the cosmology is at least partly fictional. Place called them Author Entities, for higher beings and Metafictional Entities for lower ones (SCP 6747 iirc) and it doesn't make much sense to not follow this naming scheme.

Also, as you already proven there can be infinitely layered stories within timelines. So those two layers are not the same as the reality differences between them. This is not an assumption either, this is stated in Places own Tale (Blank) that occurs in his own cosmology.

Blank lets out a snort at that, covering his grin with one hand. Place smirks. "And yes, I'm the one who named it. It's an anomalous whitehole with some strange narrative properties: it emits projections of our universal narrative — the infinitely complicated story that our whole reality imitates — to an anomalously-accurate degree, implying that it's somehow related to author-entities. Second of all, there's this old sci-fi show that had its 70th anniversary a few weeks ago — "

As for Universe Prime....

Universe Prime

So it's not really a change as much as it's a new entity/character, arguably the strongest in the verse. The problem is that unlike the Proxyverse and the Constants mentioned above, it doesn't properly exist on the Wiki yet and is only in WoG and, arguably, as a sort of logical concequence of the cosmology. So whether or not it should exist on the wiki yet is debatable. But eh, here goes.

It is mentioned in Placeholder's Q&A (Here, scroll down to the English tab) and Ike's Sandbox regarding the cosmology of the verse (Here, third tab). It is defined as being the universe above the narrative stack. It possesses infinite narrative energy, which it then distributes to all lower universes. As a result of its existence, no lower universe can ever interact with it or even comprehend what is going in it. It is also completely unmoveable in its plot and fate, being unable to be changed at all. And it is also unique, as any other universe existing on its level would fuse completely with it.

Minimally it would be infinite layers of narratives above baseline. But Place's description of it states that it is an abstract, infinite consciousness that lacks any narrative dimensions, the very thing that defines the narrative stack. This means that it would transcend the very stack.

So if we accept this profile, it would be minimally be infinite layers of High 1-A, due to being infinite layers of narratives above both Swann and the SCP narrative. If we take Place's dimensionless interpretation, it would be Tier 0, due to entirely transcending the very narrative hierarchy. And if narrative layers ends up Tier 0 then, yeah.

I defer to Ultima on this. It doesn't seem all that prominent in the cosmology just yet.

Djoricverse

So a few updates are in order. First of all, WoG tells us that the Yesod Multiverse (the main multiverse of the Djoricverse) is 10-D (Here). Which by itself would mean that most 2-A feats within Djoricverse would be High 1-C but that doesn't quite matter given what happens next and given how Acidverse (which has uncountably infinite dimensions) connects to Djoricverse anyway.

As it turns out, according to WoG again, the Library is the Tree of Knowledge, essentially making it equal to the Tree of Life (which contains all of reality) (Here). Admittedly this is something I should have realized sooner, since the Serpent and Mekhane were considered counterparts and all, but guess I'm dumb.

Since nearly every 2-A feat in Djoricverse went through the Tree, this means that all of them now scale to the Library to some degree. Meaning they should all scale to SCP-3125, which would be either 1-A, High 1-A or 0. So yeah. No more 2-A for people on that level. It's sad, really.

Sounds fine to me.

Individual Edits

Miscellaneous changes to profiles not covered above.

Spoiler: SCP-4755

SCP-4755 should be deleted. Currently, it absolutely does not follow the cosmology it partakes in, and if anything, it should be a key for the Foundation profile. Due to its status as a concept above even Anti-Noospheric ideas like SCP-3125 and SCP-6820-A, it should be at least above these two in tier.

I'm kind of getting mixed signals here. Do you want us to delete it, move it to the Foundation Profile, or upgrade it?

Personally I would prefer to move it. When I read the article I also thought it was more fitting as a key than a standalone profile.

SCP-6820-A should scale to this, as it is a very similar being who embodies life and death and adaptability and thus should be more difficult to kill than SCP-3125, and the Constants for being higher than both of them.

Seems like an unnecessary assumption in terms of scaling. Just because a character focuses on one aspect doesn't mean a character embodying a different aspect is necessarily inferior in that particular ability.

Mnemosyne has already a 1-A key, but it should be slightly reworked to better include her relationships with her physical AP. As well, she should have an AP rating for her "full power", when she removes her eye bandage. With this power, she had infinite power even compared to CORE.exe, which doesn't have a profile but will have one soon. CORE.exe being At least High 1-A, possibly 0 for constructing a space with a similar topology as SCP-3125 and threatening to devour the entire timeline, as well as possibly the entire Omniverse in the key Mnemosyne defeats it in.

Mnemosyne overpower him but it wasn't to an infinite degree. She overwhelmed his infinite mind space and capacities iirc.

Conclusion and TL&DR

The Noosphere is composed of platonic ideas that manipulate the physical world and thus should be minimally 1-A. As the Kaktusverse narratives contradict the Place model and are considered to be part of information, it should be considered part of the physical reality that the Noosphere manipulates, and thus be High 1-A. This includes any being who scales to it, such as the Djoric Scarlet King.

High 1-A would be fine. More specifically....

Yours: Baseline High 1-A

My opinion: At least 2 degrees of transcendence into High 1-A (since it's beyond SCP 3812 who will transcend his narrative and himself), possibly higher.

The Semiosphere is the sphere dealing with logic and mathematics, including information from the Noosphere. It should thus possibly entirely transcend the system of logic of the Noosphere and thus be possibly High 1-A or possibly 0. This includes all beings who scale to it, such as SCP-3125.

I'm a bit iffy on this one. SCP 3125 has many manifestations, some of which are either theta-prime dimensional or 5 dimensional but still within the infosphere which would be >>the semiosphere.

Just scale it above the Noosphere which would be 3-degrees of infinity into High 1-A, nowhere close enough to be tier 0.

The Patasphere is unquantifiably above it, and thus IHP and all narrative interactions should be "At least" the tier of the Semiosphere. This includes all beings who scale to it, such as SCP-6820 and INTEGER.

4-degrees of transcendence into High 1-A is to low to get an at least tiering.

Constants are a new type of beings, which act as keys for SCP-682, SCP-3125, and SCP-2747. They cover all SCPverse timelines and scale above nearly everything in them, and thus above the Patasphere.

Mnemosyne and AIs should also be above the patasphere along with the antimemes that lie therein for being part of the infosphere. Core AI and true power Mnemosyne should be beyond the hierarchy for creating a world of higher dimensionality which, considering the hierarchy is described as being immeasurable and they increase their size endlessly, would be enough bounds for them to just be straight up tier 0.

The constants, as truer forms of these entities above their timelines shown, would thus also be tier 0 (1 degree above baseline).

Only problem with this is that Core called it the Noosphere though this could just be seen as a contradiction born from the fact that the two are used interchangeably many times.

The True Authors should be removed, replaced by other concepts. In this case, the Proxyverse, another layer of reality between the SCP one and Swann. Swanns should scale above the Proxyverse. Narrative beings should entirely transcend the lower narrative, and thus be High 1-A by default, and 0 if any High 1-A beings exist in the verse.

Calling "us" Swann and still using the Place cosmology is contradictory. Swann and author entities are interchangable in his cosmology as it is in most cosmologies, tbh. SCP 3500 and operation OverMeta seem to be the exceptions than the rule and they shouldn't be considered either since their cosmologies are not compatible since it's clear that Swann entities are the god tiers of their cosmologies there.

It makes much more sense to put them into one key using the "from...to" statements considering as a species across multiverses. If you want to keep the species separate from the ones that appear in verse then you can add the Proxyverse and "Real" world as that's what he referred to us as though I feel like, since we probably literally cannot be shown story-wise it's probably a moot point to involve a "real" key hence a need for a species specific key.

Author entities should probably be tier 0. They, to my understanding anyway, cannot be any other tier. Even if 1-A Noosphere is used, considering the hierarchy involved in the infosphere which would result in High 1-A, since there's an infinite complexity between the narrative dimensions between higher and lower layers they would still be tier 0 albeit just at baseline at the lowest.

Using my interpretation they would be infinitely into tier 0 even using the weakest author entities, the Proxyverse.

By the way, since the SCP-wiki itself is deemed canonically the Proxyverse should we use the statement that the Foundation has an Unsetly amount of things within it?

Universe Prime is possibly the new absolute god tier of the verse, existing at the top of the narrative stack and possibly transcends it entirely. Should be Tier 0 if Swanns are High 1-A. And 0 if they're 0. Kinda a doubtful entity to include on the Wiki yet.

As stated before I agree with Ultima that there's probably no point to make this profile.

All Djoricverse gods should scale to the Library and Tree fully, since all of their feats lead to that. And thus be whatever tier SCP-3125 ends up being, either 1-A, High 1-A or 0.

Since most people are going with High 1-A SCP 3125 should be both tier High 1-A and tier 0. For the reasons I stated above it should have multiple keys since it's canon for it to have multiple manifestations, even within the same timeline. (Or we could just go the lazy route and make it a variable tier too).

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Er...what? Didn't he reply already?

We're waiting for him to reply to Saikou.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

There is more evidence for the latter than the former.

Also the reason why 3812 isn't above the Noosphere is that in 682's termination log, a fictional Narrative was written with 3812 in it. Said 3812 was confined in the fictional Narrative despite its clear properties of Narrative transcendence.

Also 682 stalemated it but that's for the subsequent revision I'm working out.

 

[CosmicWreck]

Also the reason why 3812 isn't above the Noosphere is that in 682's termination log, a fictional Narrative was written with 3812 in it. Said 3812 was confined in the fictional Narrative despite its clear properties of Narrative transcendence.

Also 682 stalemated it but that's for the subsequent revision I'm working out.

Not entirely certain how this relates to my argument tbh.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

How can 3812 transcend the Narrative stack, when it is stuck in a fictional Narrative written by The Foundation?

That means the real 3812 would also be limited by the sum of all Narrative dimensions (I must emphasise Kaktusverse Narrative dimensions), of which is encompassed by the Noosphere. This would make sense since the Noosphere should be constant throughout all canons that have it. That means that Placeholder's model for the Noosphere having the sum total of all information and concepts carries over. 3812 can't ever be feasibly above the Noosphere because it just is not compatible with Placeholder's model.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I feel like we probably should address canons on the verse page in some form anyway. Wanted to sort our EU profiles per canon buuut Oven didn't want that.

You should have noted or linked that we would be using S and C's Plastics depiction of uncountable dimensions being relegated to a single narrative. Saying the number of space and time dimensions are arbitrary is unnecessarily vague. It's not like there can't be more than an uncountable number of dimensions (technically).

I'm not really using S & C Plastic (wasn't even aware that was discussed there), just the general depictions of dimensions being limited to below higher narratives (solidified by Place shit). Although the only really important point is that the number of dimensions don't matter compared to the Noosphere. It can be any number, but the Noosphere would be above it. Hence 1-A.

SCP-3812 was offered as a way to destroy the LolFoundation universe so where the events of that article occurred in Place's timeline of events, if it occurred at all, is unknown.

I'm aware 3812 was mentioned in 6747. But that doesn't really change the fact that 3812 transcending endless narratives like that doesn't work at all in his model. Him having range to reach across multiple timelines doesn't change that. Also it's almost definitively a different version of 3812 than the one featured in Kaktusverse, being part of the Admonition timeline and all.

Why? It's quite blatant that he would transcend the narrative stack.

And? I already talked about how this stack doesn't correspond to Place's own narratives due to being inherently incompatible. And the fact that the Kaktusverse narrative are preceded by shit like Names, Time, Information, the Library, etc. just goes to show that the Kaktusverse narratives are nowhere near as big in scope as the Placeverse ones, which transcend the Infosphere and any kind of time among other things. And Kaktusverse is self-contained enough that having it be contained within a single SCP timeline isn't a huge stretch.

You could certainly argue that 3812 by the end of his journey and after having went past all layers of the narrative stack would be High 1-A, either through transcending the entire stack or scaling to other High 1-A beings in Kaktusverse. I don't think there is a lot of proof to accept that but if people really want that, I could agree to it. But I'm adamant in the Kaktusverse narrative stack being transcended by the Noosphere (and 3812 not scaling to Placeverse narratives).

To my knowledge there is no hierarchy of the Noosphere except for maybe in article SCP 4755 but there no comparison between the layers was given.

There doesn't need to be layers is the thing though. Several of our High 1-A and 0 on the site aren't on that level through a hierarchy of the lower tier. Transcending the framework in which the lower exists can be enough. Here, the Semiosphere can control the logic behind the existence of Noospheric information. Another, hypothetical layer of High 1-A wouldn't transcend the logic of the lower layer.

This also brings up a problem I noticed earlier. Basically, where does SCPs 5712 and 5800 fit in. They are also deemed infosphere (well, in 5712 it is and it directly links to 5800) which would make SCP 3125>the patasphere which kind of contradicts SCP 5875 (or any depiction, really) where it's narrative dimensions weren't deemed anything particularly special.

I have no idea what you're talking about? Neither 5712 or 5800 even remotely scale to the Patasphere on their own. Infospheric entities aren't inherently outside of the Patasphere, only outside of the Noosphere (although the entire Infosphere does contain all Pataspheres).

I'm kind of getting mixed signals here. Do you want us to delete it, move it to the Foundation Profile, or upgrade it?

Personally I would prefer to move it. When I read the article I also thought it was more fitting as a key than a standalone profile.

Delete it. Add it on the Foundation profile at a later date with higher stats.

Seems like an unnecessary assumption in terms of scaling. Just because a character focuses on one aspect doesn't mean a character embodying a different aspect is necessarily inferior in that particular ability.

I think that if two beings are very similar in their nature, yet one of them literally embodies survivability, it should be harder to kill than the one who doesn't. The opposite is just kinda nonsensical.

Mnemosyne overpower him but it wasn't to an infinite degree. She overwhelmed his infinite mind space and capacities iirc.

She broke him through giving him comparatively infinite memory. Which overloaded and destroyed him.



I'll just re-iterate what I said. Infospheric beings aren't inherently outside the Patasphere. All "Infospheric" means is outside the Noosphere. It can be anything from a tiny dick SCP-5712 to a whole ass Constant. So neither Mnemosyne or 3125 or whatever are outside the Patasphere by default.

 

[CosmicWreck]

How can 3812 transcend the Narrative stack, when it is stuck in a fictional Narrative written by The Foundation?

That means the real 3812 would also be limited by the sum of all Narrative dimensions (I must emphasise Kaktusverse Narrative dimensions), of which is encompassed by the Noosphere. This would make sense since the Noosphere should be constant throughout all canons that have it. That means that Placeholder's model for the Noosphere having the sum total of all information and concepts carries over. 3812 can't ever be feasibly above the Noosphere because it just is not compatible with Placeholder's model.

I think you're confused as how 3812 operates.

3812 exists across all the realities it transcends at once. Furthermore, its transcendence was never given a time frame but we know it isn't instant so it doesn't make any sense to bring him transcending the narrative stack up when its abilities don't work like that. Transcending the narrative stack is its destination, not its designation. None of that even takes into consideration that the stated log was incredibly vague. The foundation created a narrative and introduced it to Fred detailing the battle between SCP 682 and other anomalies. Only Fred and SCP 682 were stated to have been directly introduced to it. It wouldn't make sense to say any of the SCPs involved were similarly inserted into that narrative, and even if they were that depiction of 3812 was hardly described to do anything at all so it's not exactly scalable.

I'm not really using S & C Plastic (wasn't even aware that was discussed there), just the general depictions of dimensions being limited to below higher narratives (solidified by Place shit). Although the only really important point is that the number of dimensions don't matter compared to the Noosphere. It can be any number, but the Noosphere would be above it. Hence 1-A.

Alright.

I'm aware 3812 was mentioned in 6747. But that doesn't really change the fact that 3812 transcending endless narratives like that doesn't work at all in his model. Him having range to reach across multiple timelines doesn't change that. Also it's almost definitively a different version of 3812 than the one featured in Kaktusverse, being part of the Admonition timeline and all.

No I agree with you.

And? I already talked about how this stack doesn't correspond to Place's own narratives due to being inherently incompatible. And the fact that the Kaktusverse narrative are preceded by shit like Names, Time, Information, the Library, etc. just goes to show that the Kaktusverse narratives are nowhere near as big in scope as the Placeverse ones, which transcend the Infosphere and any kind of time among other things. And Kaktusverse is self-contained enough that having it be contained within a single SCP timeline isn't a huge stretch.

You could certainly argue that 3812 by the end of his journey and after having went past all layers of the narrative stack would be High 1-A, either through transcending the entire stack or scaling to other High 1-A beings in Kaktusverse. I don't think there is a lot of proof to accept that but if people really want that, I could agree to it. But I'm adamant in the Kaktusverse narrative stack being transcended by the Noosphere (and 3812 not scaling to Placeverse narratives).

Evidence is indeed important but I should point out that we already accept that stance as narratively speaking, 3812 only transcended 3 narrative layers during the story. Any set number of narrative stacks higher than that are questionable considering the reason SCP 3812 was created in the first place was to discover whether or not there really were an infinite number of layers of reality in existence (which we know there are, now, due to Kaktus' second proposal).

Seeing your contentions though I should point out that since the Noosphere wasn't mentioned in the article and 3812 didn't become a thoughtform, it doesn't really make any sense to scale him to any of the other noospheric entities. It would do the opposite, in fact and thus make the Noosphere more impressive in terms of transcendence so you don't have to worry about that.

There doesn't need to be layers is the thing though. Several of our High 1-A and 0 on the site aren't on that level through a hierarchy of the lower tier. Transcending the framework in which the lower exists can be enough. Here, the Semiosphere can control the logic behind the existence of Noospheric information. Another, hypothetical layer of High 1-A wouldn't transcend the logic of the lower layer.

Tiers High 1-A and tier 0 aren't reachable by only layered hierarchies, you're right, but there still must be evidence that the difference between the two is about the same, such as using high concept maths. Transcending the logic of something doesn't necessitate any strict level of transcendence beyond one layer (and even if it does no one can prove the difference would be the same as that which exists between tiers High 1-A and Tier 0).

I have no idea what you're talking about? Neither 5712 or 5800 even remotely scale to the Patasphere on their own. Infospheric entities aren't inherently outside of the Patasphere, only outside of the Noosphere (although the entire Infosphere does contain all Pataspheres).

Sorry I misunderstood. I'm confused now though?

I'll just re-iterate what I said. Infospheric beings aren't inherently outside the Patasphere. All "Infospheric" means is outside the Noosphere. It can be anything from a tiny dick SCP-5712 to a whole ass Constant. So neither Mnemosyne or 3125 or whatever are outside the Patasphere by default.

I thought we were using the Place model though, where he explicitly places the other systems as the infosphere's subsets.

Furthermore, the Infosphere-Patasphere-Semiosphere-Noosphere system of rendering reality is NOT natural — it's specifically designed by the Editors for the purpose of managing the SCPverse, and it only applies to the SCPverse. So the Authors don't exactly have a Semiosphere in that sense, nor is their physical reality likely socially constructed.

I don't really understand where the interpretation that there are different types of infosphere comes from when we are technically using a single canon (or as close to one as possible).

Delete it. Add it on the Foundation profile at a later date with higher stats.

I have no problem with this.

I think that if two beings are very similar in their nature, yet one of them literally embodies survivability, it should be harder to kill than the one who doesn't. The opposite is just kinda nonsensical.

Well, since no one else thinks there's anything wrong with that logic I don't really think it makes sense to continue to disagree.

She broke him through giving him comparatively infinite memory. Which overloaded and destroyed him.

Ah, right, now I remember.

 

[Wardokman69]

Tiers High 1-A and tier 0 aren't reachable by only layered hierarchies, you're right, but there still must be evidence that the difference between the two is about the same, such as using high concept maths. Transcending the logic of something doesn't necessitate any strict level of transcendence beyond one layer (and even if it does no one can prove the difference would be the same as that which exists between tiers High 1-A and Tier 0).

Definitely not how it works. If you transcend the very framework and logic behind High 1-A then you surely become 0. It's not only about layered hierarchy, the differece is bigger than that.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Place saying 3125 is exactly the size of the Noosphere is sorta of a weird take from him that's contradicted by some stuff on the SCP Wiki and even himself to some degree. The Surrealistics tale shit directly contradicts this by stating SCP-3125 to be bigger than human brains, SCP-5712 fodders can eventually consume the entire Noosphere (and I doubt that this would make them jump to be equal to 3125, if it were that easy) and his own interview implies that WILD LIGHT defeated 3125 through becoming big enough to understand 3125, implying the Noosphere is otherwise unable to do so.

Yeah, fair enough, then.

I guess that if we did consider 3125 = to the Noosphere then the 5800 hierarchy would be comparable to it in size but I'm not too sure about it. I know a Third Law tale did use alephs to compare conceptual presence

I lean towards the aleph numbers being contained in the Noosphere, at the moment. It is, after all, defined as "The space of all thoughts humans are capable of having," and set theory is by no means something outside of that scope. Then you add this to the fact that manipulation of the axioms and mathematics by which reality operates falls under the domain of the Semiosphere (Since it's the substrate where the information emanated from the prior layers is organized and turned into concrete ideas).

There is also Placeholder saying that, while the physical world contains shadows of any and all Forms existing in the Noosphere, concepts that exist outside of human conception (i.e Are not native to the Noosphere) are not instantiated in it. Given the obvious presence of uncountably infinite things in the physical layer (Any object whatsoever is a set of uncountably infinite points, there are uncountably infinite dimensions, and yada yada), it naturally follows that all of those things would need to have corresponding Forms in the Noosphere (The platonic ideal of aleph-1, and of aleph-2, and aleph-3, and so on). So, I am fairly convinced that it is the only place the alephs could exist in (Even if it's not necessarily where 3125's angels are, given even the lowest of them can nom the whole thing)

If we go by this line of thought, the Noosphere being High 1-A is very much set-in-stone. And if we take the Forms of the aleph numbers to themselves have a hierarchy set between them (The Form of aleph-2 being larger than the Form of aleph-1, for example), then that would further strengthen your proposal of things above that threshold being 0, although I'm not sure that this rating would apply to the Semiosphere, in specific, since as said above, it's just the framework where the raw data of the Info and Pataspheres is rationalized and turned into ideas comprehensible to the human mind, so it'd be more of an "in-between" point between layers, in that sense, rather than something transcendent of the Noosphere outright.

 

[CosmicWreck]

Definitely not how it works. If you transcend the very framework and logic behind High 1-A then you surely become 0. It's not only about layered hierarchy, the differece is bigger than that.

It's really not. Just being a subset of a cosmological structure is grounds to being a derivative of that framework and logic thus to say that there is a difference bigger than that between a High 1-A and tier 0 is simply not true as it's more like the difference between Low 1-C and Low 2-C.

It doesn't really help that what you guys are proposing doesn't really mesh with what the Noosphere consists of. It's made of the total conception of human thought. It's thus a conglomeration of multiple minds of the same tiering. As such saying the difference between the Semiosphere and Noosphere is greater than that of tier High 1-A and Tier 0 based on it's formation doesn't make any sense.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

It's really not. Just being a subset of a cosmological structure is grounds to being a derivative of that framework and logic thus to say that there is a difference bigger than that between a High 1-A and tier 0 is simply not true as it's more like the difference between Low 1-C and Low 2-C.

I don't really see where you get this conclusion from. The difference between Low 1-C and Low 2-C is really just the difference between 5-dimensional space and 4-dimensional space, and regardless of what context you are working with, those two things are operating by the exact same logical framework, the same exact language, and the same same building blocks. R^5, after all, is just what you get when you take the product of R^4 and R, and so the former is in no way transcendent over the framework defining the latter, in the same way 2 doesn't exceed the logical framework defining 1.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

3812 exists across all the realities it transcends at once. Furthermore, its transcendence was never given a time frame but we know it isn't instant so it doesn't make any sense to bring him transcending the narrative stack up when its abilities don't work like that. Transcending the narrative stack is its destination, not its designation. None of that even takes into consideration that the stated log was incredibly vague. The foundation created a narrative and introduced it to Fred detailing the battle between SCP 682 and other anomalies. Only Fred and SCP 682 were stated to have been directly introduced to it. It wouldn't make sense to say any of the SCPs involved were similarly inserted into that narrative, and even if they were that depiction of 3812 was hardly described to do anything at all so it's not exactly scalable.

That doesn't matter though. 3812 was literally created by a writer writing 3812 into existence, causing 3812 to start ascending. If you wrote 3812 into a lower narrative the same thing would happen. You'd just be writing a being defined by transcending everything above them, which would then result in them transcending. So logically 3812 in that fictional narrative would have started going up and do more trouble. Obviously that didn't happen so either it's just a plot hole or the scope of 3812's ascension was limited to this lower narrative.

Tiers High 1-A and tier 0 aren't reachable by only layered hierarchies, you're right, but there still must be evidence that the difference between the two is about the same, such as using high concept maths. Transcending the logic of something doesn't necessitate any strict level of transcendence beyond one layer (and even if it does no one can prove the difference would be the same as that which exists between tiers High 1-A and Tier 0).

It does though. Another layer of High 1-A wouldn't be above the logical system that determines the existence of the lower High 1-A. Especially in this case, where varying strength of High 1-As already exist in the Noosphere and arguably 5800's hierarchy too. If you can manipulate logic and mathematics itself, in a case where High 1-A stuff are still defined/bound by them, then no matter what higher levels of High 1-A there'd be, the realm/beings that manipulate the framework of the High 1-A stuff would still be superior.

I'm not gonna act like I'm super knowledgeable about this subject but that's apparently what do here on approved profiles so, I'm going with it.

Admittedly regarding the Infosphere I could have been more precise in describing it. But the Infosphere is the set of all information in the SCPverse. Everything up to the Constants and the Pataspheres are part of it. But when talking about "Infospheric beings", it's usually meant as beings who exists outside the Noosphere. The world of human ideas (the Noosphere) is usually contrasted with the world of not-human ideas (the rest of the Infosphere), so 3125 and similar Extra-Noospheric beings are often referred to as Infospheric beings. But this doesn't mean anything regarding their relationships with the Semiosphere and Patasphere by itself. Only that they're outside the Noosphere.

So by default they wouldn't scale to the Semio/Patasphere. 3125 just has feats of affecting the former, so it scales. And CORE and other beings upscale from 3125.

If we go by this line of thought, the Noosphere being High 1-A is very much set-in-stone. And if we take the Forms of the aleph numbers to themselves have a hierarchy set between them (The Form of aleph-2 being larger than the Form of aleph-1, for example), then that would further strengthen your proposal of things above that threshold being 0, although I'm not sure that this rating would apply to the Semiosphere, in specific, since as said above, it's just the framework where the raw data of the Info and Pataspheres are rationalized and turned into ideas comprehensible to the human mind, so it'd be more of an "in-between" point between layers, in that sense, rather than something transcendent of the Noosphere outright.

Hm. Would be the Patasphere be Tier 0 outright by your proposal then? I wouldn't mind just, not having everyone who scales to 3125 not being 0 tbh.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Hm. Would be the Patasphere be Tier 0 outright by your proposal then? I wouldn't mind just, not having everyone who scales to 3125 not being 0 tbh.

Pretty much, yeah.