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Scion vs Novel Kars
- Thread starter Promestein
- Start date
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Scion?
| spoiler so Triforce doesn't die anymore than he already has |
|---|
Scion only really starts the endgame fight because Jack Slash basically tells him his heroics have no substance and he might as well try some amorality, so he just blows up Great Britain and fights everyone, actively toying with them and drawing out their suffering, up until near the end where he's screaming in rage at the tactics these pesky humans are pulling Taylor Hebert asks Panacea to remove her shard's limiters, and she gains the ability to mind control people up to 16 feet away, at the cost of her slowly degrading sanity and comprehension of human ideas like language and everything but violence. Through Doormaker and fighting off Dragon, she ends up gathering a superhero army hundreds strong and uses her shard to the max to multitask with a lot of powers, hitting Scion constantly and in every way they can possibly think of, forcing him to occasionally precog until Doormaker's shard finally runs out of juice and everything falls apart. But, in a second wind on the heels of Taylor's efforts, everyone gets to fighting Scion, Foil finally lands a hit with Sting, an anti entity weapon that temporarily severs shard connections, opening up whatever was left of Scion's resources to be blasted by a cannon made by the entire planet's best tinkers For brevity's sake, some CIS on Scion's part and immeasurable effort with the heroes. Dunno if he particularly has a reason to toy with Kars if he's just put in a fight with them |
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Well at best it's gonna be inconclusive from my current understanding of Scion, because Kars' adaption extends to universal powers. Unless Scion can null powers that can both create entire timelines at a whim (which is what's extremely important here as I think nulling powers like that is above Scion's paygrade, and that's te power that makes Kars' nigh impossible to kill in debates) if Scion lacks the ability to null powers on such a scale then Kars' adaption should allow him to overcome, adapt and be safe from permanent death here.
Now Kars' adaption allows him to copy abilities but essentially +1, to such an extent his own versions tend to overcome the previous user's resistances (showcased when Kars' The World could completely freeze Dio, who, of course, normally resists time stop, to the point Dio wasn't even aware that time was stopped in the first place and was floored when he realized that Kars escaped the funny trap by stopping time, moving out of the trap, then flying up far above Dio's head, all within a time stop Dio couldn't percieve happen), now maybe Kars' adaption and mimicry can allow for suped up versions that can overcome Scion's resistances as that's a thing that Kars' mimicry comes packaged with.
But that's about all I can say here, I probably won't have enough time to check back till tomorrow though so sayonara I guess.
Now Kars' adaption allows him to copy abilities but essentially +1, to such an extent his own versions tend to overcome the previous user's resistances (showcased when Kars' The World could completely freeze Dio, who, of course, normally resists time stop, to the point Dio wasn't even aware that time was stopped in the first place and was floored when he realized that Kars escaped the funny trap by stopping time, moving out of the trap, then flying up far above Dio's head, all within a time stop Dio couldn't percieve happen), now maybe Kars' adaption and mimicry can allow for suped up versions that can overcome Scion's resistances as that's a thing that Kars' mimicry comes packaged with.
But that's about all I can say here, I probably won't have enough time to check back till tomorrow though so sayonara I guess.
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since when did D4C create timelines
The whole deal is that it hops to new ones to get a new Kars or Funny
If we want to talk about Multiversal range, a lot of powers stretch into entirely different universes and Scion himself is capable of just casually waltzing the multiverse and fighting across it like against Eidolon, and if we want to reallly stretch, Scion himself, the source of all powers, is described as a 4D tesseract in his true form. I don't necessarily think that would mean shards in general operate on a 4D scale but
The whole deal is that it hops to new ones to get a new Kars or Funny
If we want to talk about Multiversal range, a lot of powers stretch into entirely different universes and Scion himself is capable of just casually waltzing the multiverse and fighting across it like against Eidolon, and if we want to reallly stretch, Scion himself, the source of all powers, is described as a 4D tesseract in his true form. I don't necessarily think that would mean shards in general operate on a 4D scale but
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>since when did D4C create timelines
Since the novel, D4C, while it can traverse alternate dimensions, also creates completely new timelines/universes/etc at a whim if the user so chooses. It aint something that applies to the canon incarnation but the novel clearly aint canon.
>The whole deal is that it hops to new ones to get a new Kars or Funny
Yes, but it can also create entire universes to do so. Joji originally suspects that to be the case, and it's later confirmed by paralel Kars, ergo it's legit as it was confirmed by the most reliable source possible, plus it's on the profile, listed as Paralel universe creation.
>If we want to talk about Multiversal range, a lot of powers stretch into entirely different universes and Scion himself is capable of just casually waltzing the multiverse and fighting across it like against Eidolon,
Nobody is talking about range, if we're talking range the D4CU has technically Multiversal+ range. Him being able to enter different universes, while helpful, doesn't mean he can enter the exact universe D4C hops to, given there's a literal infinite amount of them in question and even more given it can create entire universes.
>and if we want to reallly stretch, Scion himself, the source of all powers, is described as a 4D tesseract in his true form. I don't necessarily think that would mean shards in general operate on a 4D scale but
Source of all powers in his verse yeah, the only reason why I think Kars could possibly adapt is because he has feats copying powers other then Stands, such as Hamon and Bounds (which are a unique powerset to the novel that don't appear elsewhere in jojo media), thus he isnt limited in what he can copy unless it's clearly out of his ballpark, now given Kars can adapt to things at a glance and copy said powers while perfecting them to such an extent his new version completely negates whatever form of resistance the original had while amping it's utility and scale to a greater extent, I don't find it unreasonable that Kars can adapt and copy Scion's powerset while simutaneously amplifyng the powers to possibly overcome Scion's resistances, given he did exactly that with Dio and timestop (Dio actually being an amped version of his original at that) and Kars can copy and perfect powers that can destroy the universe (albeit through a side effect but unlike canon, actually does kill everyone and everything except those that can negate their own death (Giorno), those that are technically a seperate space-time and Kars (because who the **** knows, he just didnt, novel doesnt really give an explanation other then wow kars cant believe you can even survive the end of the universe lol) and powers that can literally create entire universes that have their own entire history at a whim without even trying (the latter being especially clear cut, given that he never actually seen D4C's body), I'd say that al things considered, Scion's powerset should be free game for Kars unless there's something above creating entire univereses casually in his powerset, but regardless, Kars copying such powers then granting them a +1 is well within his limit. As for the 4D thing, there's actually a tesseract in the novel, described as having it's own space-time (proven later with MIH only effecting the inside of it and not the outside world, with the reason given being the thing has it's own time-space), being completely indestructible, the distance between the outerwalls of it and the inner cube of it being infinite (thus nothing can ever reach it) and it looping infinitely on itself, even allows for time travel if you fall down it as there aint any limit to terminal velocity in it and you'll hit infinity and time travel with it, while not relevant here, I found that interesting to note but do note that stands being on that calibur isnt anything unheard of, and Kars should in theory be able to copy even that Stand (although he never encountered it technically, the novel would have one believe that he would be more than capable of copying any stand that exists, with Joji being terrified when he realized that Kars almost went to Morioh, a town filled with Stands ripe for his picking, which would include the aforementioned but you can ignore the last bit if you want, it was only a possibility, it didnt happen even though everything points to it being a true hypothesis and not a what if). But if you're implying that Shards do operate on such a scale, given your but, I still don't think that it's out of his ballpark as he has 4D Stands, now if it's higher on the 4D scale you'd have a case but I don't think you can truthfully says all shards operate on 4D, much like how not all Stands are and have 4D powers, some shards and stands maybe, althought defintily not all.
Since the novel, D4C, while it can traverse alternate dimensions, also creates completely new timelines/universes/etc at a whim if the user so chooses. It aint something that applies to the canon incarnation but the novel clearly aint canon.
>The whole deal is that it hops to new ones to get a new Kars or Funny
Yes, but it can also create entire universes to do so. Joji originally suspects that to be the case, and it's later confirmed by paralel Kars, ergo it's legit as it was confirmed by the most reliable source possible, plus it's on the profile, listed as Paralel universe creation.
>If we want to talk about Multiversal range, a lot of powers stretch into entirely different universes and Scion himself is capable of just casually waltzing the multiverse and fighting across it like against Eidolon,
Nobody is talking about range, if we're talking range the D4CU has technically Multiversal+ range. Him being able to enter different universes, while helpful, doesn't mean he can enter the exact universe D4C hops to, given there's a literal infinite amount of them in question and even more given it can create entire universes.
>and if we want to reallly stretch, Scion himself, the source of all powers, is described as a 4D tesseract in his true form. I don't necessarily think that would mean shards in general operate on a 4D scale but
Source of all powers in his verse yeah, the only reason why I think Kars could possibly adapt is because he has feats copying powers other then Stands, such as Hamon and Bounds (which are a unique powerset to the novel that don't appear elsewhere in jojo media), thus he isnt limited in what he can copy unless it's clearly out of his ballpark, now given Kars can adapt to things at a glance and copy said powers while perfecting them to such an extent his new version completely negates whatever form of resistance the original had while amping it's utility and scale to a greater extent, I don't find it unreasonable that Kars can adapt and copy Scion's powerset while simutaneously amplifyng the powers to possibly overcome Scion's resistances, given he did exactly that with Dio and timestop (Dio actually being an amped version of his original at that) and Kars can copy and perfect powers that can destroy the universe (albeit through a side effect but unlike canon, actually does kill everyone and everything except those that can negate their own death (Giorno), those that are technically a seperate space-time and Kars (because who the **** knows, he just didnt, novel doesnt really give an explanation other then wow kars cant believe you can even survive the end of the universe lol) and powers that can literally create entire universes that have their own entire history at a whim without even trying (the latter being especially clear cut, given that he never actually seen D4C's body), I'd say that al things considered, Scion's powerset should be free game for Kars unless there's something above creating entire univereses casually in his powerset, but regardless, Kars copying such powers then granting them a +1 is well within his limit. As for the 4D thing, there's actually a tesseract in the novel, described as having it's own space-time (proven later with MIH only effecting the inside of it and not the outside world, with the reason given being the thing has it's own time-space), being completely indestructible, the distance between the outerwalls of it and the inner cube of it being infinite (thus nothing can ever reach it) and it looping infinitely on itself, even allows for time travel if you fall down it as there aint any limit to terminal velocity in it and you'll hit infinity and time travel with it, while not relevant here, I found that interesting to note but do note that stands being on that calibur isnt anything unheard of, and Kars should in theory be able to copy even that Stand (although he never encountered it technically, the novel would have one believe that he would be more than capable of copying any stand that exists, with Joji being terrified when he realized that Kars almost went to Morioh, a town filled with Stands ripe for his picking, which would include the aforementioned but you can ignore the last bit if you want, it was only a possibility, it didnt happen even though everything points to it being a true hypothesis and not a what if). But if you're implying that Shards do operate on such a scale, given your but, I still don't think that it's out of his ballpark as he has 4D Stands, now if it's higher on the 4D scale you'd have a case but I don't think you can truthfully says all shards operate on 4D, much like how not all Stands are and have 4D powers, some shards and stands maybe, althought defintily not all.
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I mean, coil makes his weird timeline thing then choses which one happens. I don't think Scion would be randomly exempt from that, and he has his own adaptation stuff anyways.
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Don't know anything about Coil, but Novel D4C has the power to create entire universes, said universes having their own timeline, history and being basically a straight up normal universe with zero effort, Kars could copy that and perfect it at, well not even a glance, he never actually saw D4C, which is odd given that his version still looks like D4C and Kars never actually seen Valentine use the Dimension hop ability but, that just goes to show how good his understanding is.
But regardless, Kars can essentially adapt, copy and amplify such powers at a whim and overcome others resistances, even to their own powers. I've given my basic thoughts on it already but as I don't have the time to heavily debate. This may be my last post unless asked to post again. Do note I'm not voting, I'm only outlining what Kars should be capable of.
But regardless, Kars can essentially adapt, copy and amplify such powers at a whim and overcome others resistances, even to their own powers. I've given my basic thoughts on it already but as I don't have the time to heavily debate. This may be my last post unless asked to post again. Do note I'm not voting, I'm only outlining what Kars should be capable of.
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Coil more or less makes a perfect partition of the universe and lives both sides, then collapses the one he doesn't like and stays with the one he likes.
And I still keep with the same idea, I don't see Kars copying anything.
And I still keep with the same idea, I don't see Kars copying anything.
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>Coil more or less makes a perfect partition of the universe and lives both sides, then collapses the one he doesn't like and stays with the one he likes. And I still keep with the same idea, I don't see Kars copying anything.
So basically nothing above what Kars can copy then? Seeing as he casually copied two powers that do exactly that in conjuction. If anythng, if that's the best example of a power on the Scion's side then I see no reason why Kars can't adapt given that such a power isn't vastly above, only comparable, to things that Kars has in fact shown the ability to copy and then adapt.
So basically nothing above what Kars can copy then? Seeing as he casually copied two powers that do exactly that in conjuction. If anythng, if that's the best example of a power on the Scion's side then I see no reason why Kars can't adapt given that such a power isn't vastly above, only comparable, to things that Kars has in fact shown the ability to copy and then adapt.
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Was just saying what the power is all about.
Again, Scion's powers can't be copied.
Again, Scion's powers can't be copied.
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And do you wanna explain why his powers can't be copied? Because from what I'm seeing nothing is actually stopping Kars from adapting and copying his powers, especially given from what I can tell, nothing is above what Kars has shown the ability to adapt and copy before.
If you're referring to Scion nullifying Kars' adaption or understanding, I find that very dubious given how Kars actually performs said adaptions and copying in the first place.
If you're referring to Scion nullifying Kars' adaption or understanding, I find that very dubious given how Kars actually performs said adaptions and copying in the first place.
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Because he hasn't ever shown dealing with powernull or powers that outright can't be copied like in the case of Scion's? How powerful the abilties he copied were and how much better he made them has nothing to do with this.
Is a pretty simple idea. He has copied pretty cool powers and improved them. This is conmpletely inconsequential and unrelated to copying powers that have shown being completely unable to be copied. Kars made a more perfect version of something to the point someone with resistance couldn't resist... that's cool, yet wholly inapplicable to an ability he can't copy from step one. That was my main point.
I've also seen nothing that indicates he can't just powernull D4C. And to boot, Scion himself just gets more resistant to stuff as he gets hurt and regens. Not really worth much for the more esoteric powers, but is there. Combined with Path To Victory telling him exactly what he needs to do seems to complete the set.
Is a pretty simple idea. He has copied pretty cool powers and improved them. This is conmpletely inconsequential and unrelated to copying powers that have shown being completely unable to be copied. Kars made a more perfect version of something to the point someone with resistance couldn't resist... that's cool, yet wholly inapplicable to an ability he can't copy from step one. That was my main point.
I've also seen nothing that indicates he can't just powernull D4C. And to boot, Scion himself just gets more resistant to stuff as he gets hurt and regens. Not really worth much for the more esoteric powers, but is there. Combined with Path To Victory telling him exactly what he needs to do seems to complete the set.
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>Because he hasn't ever shown dealing with powernull or powers that outright can't be copied like in the case of Scion's? How powerful the abilties he copied were and how much better he made them has nothing to do with this.
Actually that isn't exactly true (although it does have merit), Joji believed nothing could posibly stop Kars (also belived Kars could absorb and copy everything without limit, yes that's a NLF of course, but restricted to what Joji knew about, it's a good implication of Kars' adaptability), while Joji being fully aware of Heaven's Door and everything it can do (i forget what other stands he knew about at the time, he claimed that, think the only other useful thing was Whitesnake, which Kars kinda seconds later proved whitesnake was useless against him), stands to reason Joji believed Heaven's Door would fail to null Kars' powers and Kars could adapt, given we both know Heaven's Door has the abilty to negate Stand powers (also Funny believed the same thing). And as for powers that cant be copied, I don't think you understand how this works (sorry if that comes off as a bit rude, it's not supposed to sound hostile but english sucks), Kars doesn't copy in the normal sense of the word, he isnt really copying the power, he's spontaneously devolping them from scratch (well sometimes), hell hypothetically if his Stands were nulled he could spontaneously get another that has the innate resistances by developing another. This isnt some supernatural power of Kars', as odd as it sounds, something that's just natural to him as his nature as the ultimate being (which sounds hyperbolic and NLF, but it's meant to be very literal, while not 100% without limit in Vs. Debates, the limits that it would have if capped are quite high none the less), in which if it exists within Jojo, hypothetically, it's his for the taking and he can overcome and adapt to it, although I prefer sticking with what he's shown or explicitly implied capable of (so really that's only useful to know what is within his ability to overcome),. How powerful the abilities Kars has copied matters greatly, why? Because it means that Kars upper limit of adaption, copying and understanding is fortunately, well within Scion's ballpark, Scion doesn't have any power that is to much per se for Kars to adapt to and copy. And I'm aware that Scion's abilities were failed to be copied by a character, but the difference between said Character's capability to copy and Kars' are vastly different.
>Is a pretty simple idea. He has copied pretty cool powers and improved them. This is conmpletely inconsequential and unrelated to copying powers that have shown being completely unable to be copied. Kars made a more perfect version of something to the point someone with resistance couldn't resist... that's cool, yet wholly inapplicable to an ability he can't copy from step one. That was my main point.
Saying pretty cool powers is underselling it Lancelot, he copied powers that are around the absolute highest powers of Scion's, without any effort, without even direct confrontation with said power (hell he never actually saw D4C yet puled it out of his ass all the same, which I mean, I guess?) and then said power was amplified drastically (somehow, tbh we dont know exactly what changed for a few of them only that they are greatly and drastically above the initial stand, although for the few cases that we know what changed, it is pretty drastic in cases such as The World and Whitesnake). Once again, it isnt inconsequential because not only has the person who failed to copy Scion's powers, from what I can tell, aint comparable to Kars level of adaption but Kars passively adapts to powers and abilities naturaly, if he cant initially copy he should be able to after a exposure to the ability that says no you cant, thus rendering it basically ineffective.
>I've also seen nothing that indicates he can't just powernull D4C. And to boot, Scion himself just gets more resistant to stuff as he gets hurt and regens. Not really worth much for the more esoteric powers, but is there. Combined with Path To Victory telling him exactly what he needs to do seems to complete the set.
Because when has Scion shown the ability to powernull an ability that can create universes at a whim +1? And if he has, that's where Kars' passive adaption comes in and makes the powernull ineffective. The second sentence there is something that applies to Kars as well, but also applies to estoric powers, such as fate manipulation and some other funky things. Path to Victory actually is a bit of an issue for Kars, but at the same time may not be, Kars has experience dealing with that type of thing (more then he'd like honestly), he would be able to pick up on it right away and then do something to get around it, even if it means ******* off to one of infinite universes to think up a plan or gather clones.
Now for some different information, upon looking a bit into it, it seems that Scion has to manually decide to still or negate abilities, in which he does through manipulating wavelengths of various forms of energy, given his method, honestly, that would have absolutely zero effect on Kars ability to adapt, given that's jut something that happens and isnt some power, skill or energy based thing but that's defenitely something that should be within Kars power to understand and develop himself, meanig he should be capable of utilizing it and turning it back on his opponent but to a greater extent. Secondly, it seems that SCion isn't exactly the smartest, while I'm certain he's smart to an extent, he's very clearly lacking in some aspects, what's this mean? Well it means Kars has the overwhelming intelligence advantage (mitigated by PTV id assume), but the profile makes note that his plans obtained through PTV arent exactly perfect and have flaws albeit are extremely dangerous none the less, but given that it's in character and he's prone to his misshaps (especially as the Scion here is his first key, which is, according to the profile, kinda stupid) , he may not instantly play his winning hand even with PTV, assuming that Scion could null Kars' powers, nothing is stopping Kars from looking at Scion, going huh well **** he's dangerous, and leading with something like time stop, and yes I'm aware that Scion has resistance to time stop, but as mentioned, Kars' time stop can overcome resistances (and it was done through stilling which may actually pose issues for Scion). I'd also like to point out that, I may be wrong of course, but Scion would need to know the wavelength of Stands and such abilities to still them would he not? If he doesnt know the specific wavelength then why would we assume he can still Kars' powers? Unless PTV covers that?
On another note, MIH is in Kars powerselection, and unlike the original MIH, this MIH has the ability to focus its acceleration upon certain objects, including solely Kars himself. This is important because Kars MIH accelerates extremely fast, it makes Pucci look like a joke (who in the novel actually has instances of accelerating thousands to millions in a instant), now this is important why? Because it gives Kars the ability to do whatever he wants while Scion cant react, of course I'm assuming (given PTV covers the wavelength thing) that MIH is something Scion can still with ease but assuming that, stilling is still thouht based and when Kars is moving billions of times faster with the perception on top of that, he has all the time in the world to adapt and copy before Scion can have that thought, also MIH increases KE, while Scion defintely holds the tier advantage physicall, that can be completely thrown out the window with a moment of MIH, where even a pebble being flung could hold the power to ko Scion, and while he may be capable of stilling it, the initial speedbost would prove it difficult for Scion to get that thought off before he's blitzed. Another note to mention is Whitesnake, and while Scion has resistance to mind manipulation, Whitesnake isnt normal mind manipulation, what's stopping an accelerated Kars from transmuting Scions' mind and soul and removing it completely, given he lacks transmutation resistance and that's one of the attributes of Whitesnake (transmuting the nonphysical mind and soul into discs that can be physically removed from the host, can also implant commands or rewrite the disc). Of course stilling may cover Whitesnake but I dont think it'd do anything after Whitesnake given Scion would have to choose to do so and Kars can physically remove Scion's capability to do so via a disc. Also, Scion lacks NPI, is there any reason why it should be assumed that Scion can interact with the Stands? Or still them, given he lacks NPI? Has he shown the ability to still something like a Stand (something that is truly noncorporal and thus should technically be immune to wavelengths?) And if Scion nulls powers via nulling the user, nothe the power itself (a small difference yes, but a critical one), if so then he may not be able to null D4C, given it isnt bound to Kars hence why it can **** off post mortem. This post has dragged on awhile but looking at PTV and Contessa, it's real time is it not? PTV shows what needs to be done in real time and Scion must follow those steps correct? That may prove difficult if Kars leads with MIH to blitz or his +1 time stop (that stops the percetion of those who would normally otherwise be capable of thinking within stopped time), if either is true then Scion would be extremely hard pressed to find a way to get around that, stilling or not. Plus hypothetically speaking, even if Scion kill Kars, can he do anything about Kars' soul? I may be wrong (I will have to check unfortunately) but I think Kars may be capable of surving as a soul (although he'd be hardpressed to get a physical body again unless he ***** off to a different universe and steals one from a different Kars, idk you can ignore this point entirely, I'm unsure if it's possible, will have to check). One final thing (not really final, I could go on but I was playing that new souls-like game, kinda wanna continue), Kars, somehow', can pull information out of his ass that he should not know without any way he could of possibly find out, I only mention that because it's within the realm of possibility that Kars may be capable of somehow learning out of nowhere Scon's weaknesses (unless Joji thinking that Kars that one time about reading minds was true, as that would explain why he knew things that he shouldnt know (with Funny even making note of how he has no idea how Kars knew some info he had) pretty positive it was meant to showcase Kars ability to pick up on the situation instantly though in the situation when Joji stated that), actually I think someone else mentioned Kars should have some sort of cosmic awareness, I should look into who said that originally, anyway, aight. Edit: Actually about that Kars picking up on things he shouldnt know, that's definitely a thing, he knew Pucci, while he was on the ship with him, was also in the cube house in a different universe in the future with Made in Heaven and managed to somehow tap into future's Pucci power via modern Pucci to accelerate time temporarily. How he managed to instantly know that there was a Pucci in the future in a different universe with MIH, well that's impossible, he just met Puccu yet he learned about it almost right away (among other things). Also ignore the italic text, idk why it's doing this.
Also my bad if this is kinda messy or hard to read, I didnt write it in one go, come back and forth a few times so it may be a tad reetitive or messy.
Actually that isn't exactly true (although it does have merit), Joji believed nothing could posibly stop Kars (also belived Kars could absorb and copy everything without limit, yes that's a NLF of course, but restricted to what Joji knew about, it's a good implication of Kars' adaptability), while Joji being fully aware of Heaven's Door and everything it can do (i forget what other stands he knew about at the time, he claimed that, think the only other useful thing was Whitesnake, which Kars kinda seconds later proved whitesnake was useless against him), stands to reason Joji believed Heaven's Door would fail to null Kars' powers and Kars could adapt, given we both know Heaven's Door has the abilty to negate Stand powers (also Funny believed the same thing). And as for powers that cant be copied, I don't think you understand how this works (sorry if that comes off as a bit rude, it's not supposed to sound hostile but english sucks), Kars doesn't copy in the normal sense of the word, he isnt really copying the power, he's spontaneously devolping them from scratch (well sometimes), hell hypothetically if his Stands were nulled he could spontaneously get another that has the innate resistances by developing another. This isnt some supernatural power of Kars', as odd as it sounds, something that's just natural to him as his nature as the ultimate being (which sounds hyperbolic and NLF, but it's meant to be very literal, while not 100% without limit in Vs. Debates, the limits that it would have if capped are quite high none the less), in which if it exists within Jojo, hypothetically, it's his for the taking and he can overcome and adapt to it, although I prefer sticking with what he's shown or explicitly implied capable of (so really that's only useful to know what is within his ability to overcome),. How powerful the abilities Kars has copied matters greatly, why? Because it means that Kars upper limit of adaption, copying and understanding is fortunately, well within Scion's ballpark, Scion doesn't have any power that is to much per se for Kars to adapt to and copy. And I'm aware that Scion's abilities were failed to be copied by a character, but the difference between said Character's capability to copy and Kars' are vastly different.
>Is a pretty simple idea. He has copied pretty cool powers and improved them. This is conmpletely inconsequential and unrelated to copying powers that have shown being completely unable to be copied. Kars made a more perfect version of something to the point someone with resistance couldn't resist... that's cool, yet wholly inapplicable to an ability he can't copy from step one. That was my main point.
Saying pretty cool powers is underselling it Lancelot, he copied powers that are around the absolute highest powers of Scion's, without any effort, without even direct confrontation with said power (hell he never actually saw D4C yet puled it out of his ass all the same, which I mean, I guess?) and then said power was amplified drastically (somehow, tbh we dont know exactly what changed for a few of them only that they are greatly and drastically above the initial stand, although for the few cases that we know what changed, it is pretty drastic in cases such as The World and Whitesnake). Once again, it isnt inconsequential because not only has the person who failed to copy Scion's powers, from what I can tell, aint comparable to Kars level of adaption but Kars passively adapts to powers and abilities naturaly, if he cant initially copy he should be able to after a exposure to the ability that says no you cant, thus rendering it basically ineffective.
>I've also seen nothing that indicates he can't just powernull D4C. And to boot, Scion himself just gets more resistant to stuff as he gets hurt and regens. Not really worth much for the more esoteric powers, but is there. Combined with Path To Victory telling him exactly what he needs to do seems to complete the set.
Because when has Scion shown the ability to powernull an ability that can create universes at a whim +1? And if he has, that's where Kars' passive adaption comes in and makes the powernull ineffective. The second sentence there is something that applies to Kars as well, but also applies to estoric powers, such as fate manipulation and some other funky things. Path to Victory actually is a bit of an issue for Kars, but at the same time may not be, Kars has experience dealing with that type of thing (more then he'd like honestly), he would be able to pick up on it right away and then do something to get around it, even if it means ******* off to one of infinite universes to think up a plan or gather clones.
Now for some different information, upon looking a bit into it, it seems that Scion has to manually decide to still or negate abilities, in which he does through manipulating wavelengths of various forms of energy, given his method, honestly, that would have absolutely zero effect on Kars ability to adapt, given that's jut something that happens and isnt some power, skill or energy based thing but that's defenitely something that should be within Kars power to understand and develop himself, meanig he should be capable of utilizing it and turning it back on his opponent but to a greater extent. Secondly, it seems that SCion isn't exactly the smartest, while I'm certain he's smart to an extent, he's very clearly lacking in some aspects, what's this mean? Well it means Kars has the overwhelming intelligence advantage (mitigated by PTV id assume), but the profile makes note that his plans obtained through PTV arent exactly perfect and have flaws albeit are extremely dangerous none the less, but given that it's in character and he's prone to his misshaps (especially as the Scion here is his first key, which is, according to the profile, kinda stupid) , he may not instantly play his winning hand even with PTV, assuming that Scion could null Kars' powers, nothing is stopping Kars from looking at Scion, going huh well **** he's dangerous, and leading with something like time stop, and yes I'm aware that Scion has resistance to time stop, but as mentioned, Kars' time stop can overcome resistances (and it was done through stilling which may actually pose issues for Scion). I'd also like to point out that, I may be wrong of course, but Scion would need to know the wavelength of Stands and such abilities to still them would he not? If he doesnt know the specific wavelength then why would we assume he can still Kars' powers? Unless PTV covers that?
On another note, MIH is in Kars powerselection, and unlike the original MIH, this MIH has the ability to focus its acceleration upon certain objects, including solely Kars himself. This is important because Kars MIH accelerates extremely fast, it makes Pucci look like a joke (who in the novel actually has instances of accelerating thousands to millions in a instant), now this is important why? Because it gives Kars the ability to do whatever he wants while Scion cant react, of course I'm assuming (given PTV covers the wavelength thing) that MIH is something Scion can still with ease but assuming that, stilling is still thouht based and when Kars is moving billions of times faster with the perception on top of that, he has all the time in the world to adapt and copy before Scion can have that thought, also MIH increases KE, while Scion defintely holds the tier advantage physicall, that can be completely thrown out the window with a moment of MIH, where even a pebble being flung could hold the power to ko Scion, and while he may be capable of stilling it, the initial speedbost would prove it difficult for Scion to get that thought off before he's blitzed. Another note to mention is Whitesnake, and while Scion has resistance to mind manipulation, Whitesnake isnt normal mind manipulation, what's stopping an accelerated Kars from transmuting Scions' mind and soul and removing it completely, given he lacks transmutation resistance and that's one of the attributes of Whitesnake (transmuting the nonphysical mind and soul into discs that can be physically removed from the host, can also implant commands or rewrite the disc). Of course stilling may cover Whitesnake but I dont think it'd do anything after Whitesnake given Scion would have to choose to do so and Kars can physically remove Scion's capability to do so via a disc. Also, Scion lacks NPI, is there any reason why it should be assumed that Scion can interact with the Stands? Or still them, given he lacks NPI? Has he shown the ability to still something like a Stand (something that is truly noncorporal and thus should technically be immune to wavelengths?) And if Scion nulls powers via nulling the user, nothe the power itself (a small difference yes, but a critical one), if so then he may not be able to null D4C, given it isnt bound to Kars hence why it can **** off post mortem. This post has dragged on awhile but looking at PTV and Contessa, it's real time is it not? PTV shows what needs to be done in real time and Scion must follow those steps correct? That may prove difficult if Kars leads with MIH to blitz or his +1 time stop (that stops the percetion of those who would normally otherwise be capable of thinking within stopped time), if either is true then Scion would be extremely hard pressed to find a way to get around that, stilling or not. Plus hypothetically speaking, even if Scion kill Kars, can he do anything about Kars' soul? I may be wrong (I will have to check unfortunately) but I think Kars may be capable of surving as a soul (although he'd be hardpressed to get a physical body again unless he ***** off to a different universe and steals one from a different Kars, idk you can ignore this point entirely, I'm unsure if it's possible, will have to check). One final thing (not really final, I could go on but I was playing that new souls-like game, kinda wanna continue), Kars, somehow', can pull information out of his ass that he should not know without any way he could of possibly find out, I only mention that because it's within the realm of possibility that Kars may be capable of somehow learning out of nowhere Scon's weaknesses (unless Joji thinking that Kars that one time about reading minds was true, as that would explain why he knew things that he shouldnt know (with Funny even making note of how he has no idea how Kars knew some info he had) pretty positive it was meant to showcase Kars ability to pick up on the situation instantly though in the situation when Joji stated that), actually I think someone else mentioned Kars should have some sort of cosmic awareness, I should look into who said that originally, anyway, aight. Edit: Actually about that Kars picking up on things he shouldnt know, that's definitely a thing, he knew Pucci, while he was on the ship with him, was also in the cube house in a different universe in the future with Made in Heaven and managed to somehow tap into future's Pucci power via modern Pucci to accelerate time temporarily. How he managed to instantly know that there was a Pucci in the future in a different universe with MIH, well that's impossible, he just met Puccu yet he learned about it almost right away (among other things). Also ignore the italic text, idk why it's doing this.
Also my bad if this is kinda messy or hard to read, I didnt write it in one go, come back and forth a few times so it may be a tad reetitive or messy.
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bump
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He uses killer queen ultimate and blows up the universe then follows up with made in heaven ultimate requiem and then gg no re.
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Or he spams d4c ultimate with the world and erases scion from existence.
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MiH is the one who resets the universe...
Also he has just normal Killer Queen, no ultimate.
Also he has just normal Killer Queen, no ultimate.
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No killer queen ultimate resets the universe as well plus killer queen becomes ultimate because of kars so....
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Killer queen becomes ultimate by default when kars is using it
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That isnt what happened. He just used BTD so many times in succession that he undoes MIH's resets and essentially time travels back into the past. BTD doesnt blow up the universe, it's just universal time rewind that he spammed literally quadrillions of times in like a few minutes.
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So its just gloryfied reset bombs
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Well no, it's just BTD, which is kinda broken, especially in the novel as the user can use BTD on themselves, skipping the need for a host like manga version needed (The novel says that Kira just trained that limitation off). Aka Kars or Kira can use BTD out of nowhere and basically dust anyone in the vincinity and theyll blow up (in some cases, if a target triggers it via saying Kira's name or something, they'll blow up regardless of how close they are to BTD, they can be across the country for example, as Rohan and Nijimura said Kira's name and were effected by BTD despite Kira chilling somewhere else in Japan with BTD applied to himself) , and the user can choose to rewind time or not. If they do and let time play out normally, the blown up targets still get hit with the fated explosion much like the manga version.
BTD has no cool down, it can be used nonstop in succesion, meaning you can turn back time as much as you want if you keep using it, Kars used this effect to turn back time about 277777777777777.7777777777777778 years to punch Dio in the **** who a few minutes prior time traveled back in time.
BTD has no cool down, it can be used nonstop in succesion, meaning you can turn back time as much as you want if you keep using it, Kars used this effect to turn back time about 277777777777777.7777777777777778 years to punch Dio in the **** who a few minutes prior time traveled back in time.
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Oh so can't he just put scion in a loop then just spam d4cu
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Scion's broken out of time loops no problem before
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Oh well then just use d4cu with mihu
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Now scion doesnt exist anymore
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Stop with the multiple posting, people already warned you four times about this
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Okay
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BTD aint a time loop though, at least not how Kars and Novel Kira use it, while it can loop time neither actually use it that way.Promestein said:
Then again I aint debating this match so idc.
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Scion can still negate it with Stilling.
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Well can scion surivive being erased from the universe
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Pretty sure stilling is something Kars could actually deal with given it's just manipulating wavelengths and the like, really doesnt seem like a stretch for Kars to straight up adapt to it if not directly copy it.Promestein said:
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As saif before, he is resistant already to power mimicry.
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Except his resistance is more like a limitation on the person who tried to mimic him opposed to a hard **** you to those who mimic in the first place.
Not withstanding that has absolutely zero bearing on Kars ability to adapt, Scion, even assuming Trumps failing to copy him is due to Scion preventing it rather than Trumps simply being incapable through his own inabiity to do so, that doesn't actually stop Kars from simply adapting to stilling, understanding what stilling is and manipulating his own abilities to get around it or simply adapting his own unique versions of Scion's abilities without directly straight up copying them given that's something he's shown the ability to do.
Really, while I'm not exactly feeling the need to hard debate this and probably wont comment on it further than this, Kars has multiple ways to get around stilling or Scion's resistance to mimicry, not really a huge factor, it may be an issue for maybe like, ten seconds or something.
Not withstanding that has absolutely zero bearing on Kars ability to adapt, Scion, even assuming Trumps failing to copy him is due to Scion preventing it rather than Trumps simply being incapable through his own inabiity to do so, that doesn't actually stop Kars from simply adapting to stilling, understanding what stilling is and manipulating his own abilities to get around it or simply adapting his own unique versions of Scion's abilities without directly straight up copying them given that's something he's shown the ability to do.
Really, while I'm not exactly feeling the need to hard debate this and probably wont comment on it further than this, Kars has multiple ways to get around stilling or Scion's resistance to mimicry, not really a huge factor, it may be an issue for maybe like, ten seconds or something.
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Kars can understand 4D, yes.
