SAO goes 4-D despite being a 3-D game

[CurrySenpai]

So, I had been thinking about this for a while, and just wanted to put it out there and get it out of the way, but Incarnation and it's effects (at least the Subjective Reality and Probability Manipulation bits) should be 4-D smurf hax.

To those who are not familiar with SAO, Incarnation is a technique derived from the soul and is unique to the Alicization / Underworld setting. Because the simulation itself runs on the Mneomnic Visual Data (fancy word for the memories of all the souls within Underworld) with enough willpower one can trick the system/world into making processing changes and effecting the entire world.

So to visualize this process, I'll just use this diagram I made.
(Link to all Scans here)

This is the general gist of it, strong willpower or desire = ability to change the entire world -> Data is picked up by Main Visualizer which says "I will change the entire world to make this possible." -> world is changed

Why is its usage 4-D though? We have many instances of Incarnation messing with time, and as a consequence of how Underworld is run, using Incarnation on the scale of Subjective Reality and Probability Manipulation would be 4-D, as it effects the ENTIRE simulation that the Main Visualizer puts out, on a fundamental level since, ultimately probability and bringing things that do not exist into existence aren't exactly physical concepts.

Here's some more excerpts about.

Others can be found in this thread, also includes Kirito making flowers that the world made impossible to grow actually grow through his own passive willpower/belief which is pretty big.

Here's Kirito messing with time

Here are some bits on the Time Splitting Sword of Bercouli, a blade made out of the Divine Object of a system clock that lets him **** with the recorded data and time stored within Underworld.
Reminder, Perfect Weapon Control arts like this with Bercouli's swords are also based on memories and incarnation.

THESE THREE ARE IMPORTANT

What abilities get effected? Pretty much anything Incarnation can do that is law/world breaking. This would include Subjective Reality/Reality Warping, Probability Manipulation, Law Manipulation, Soul Manipulation/Resistances (as the world is run on the souls of people and their memories so Fluctlights themselves are 4-D).

Also, Kirito's age manipulation should be switched to Time Manipulation.

Will this scale to physicals? HELL NO. I'm already risking DMUA murdering me for making this thread (/j), to suggest Low 2-C SAO would be a surefire way to sign my death.

If there's anything I missed, I could bring it up, but if you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[Yasuda_144]

Shameless downplay of Vergillius the Red GOAT aside, this seems to check out given the scans.

 

[Polandballczechball]

praying rn that you don't get jumped by the PM fans here for the example image

 

[DMUA]

(this is currently an argument on a discord but neither of the parties there are posting here, so I'm just gonna throw this out)

"laws of the world" isn't strictly "the entire world", just in reference to the mechanisms that make the universe work

Like, they don't rewind the entire universe's time to reset the dragons back into their eggs, (otherwise everyone in the world would be reverted to a child), they just revert the dragon's time (which indeed, would bend the laws of the world because that kinda thing isn't permitted by physics)

It's also pretty weird to take Bercoli's clock hand as proof of 4D hax when it's presented as the vertical to Alice's horizontal in the form of a spatial cut, especially when neither of those work on a universal scale

 

[CurrySenpai]

(this is currently an argument on a discord but neither of the parties there are posting here, so I'm just gonna throw this out)

Gonna copy paste this fromt he discord argument

All the fluctlights are stored in lightcubes, these lightcubes are all within the Lightcube cluster
These lightcubes send their soul/mnemoic visual data to the Main Visualizer which is REALLY IMPORTANT, as it is the thing that creates the images and world for all people connected to see.

Important distinction the MAIN VISUALIZER is the one HANDLING all the data and CREATING the world
Not JSUT the memories
So
For instance, Kirito cannot use Dual Blades in this world because it did not come with the seed, but later he does, and does this through Incarnation, as the sheer belief in himself allowed him to manifest the Dual Blades Sword Skills.
In order to do this
His willpower must be strong enough so that the data the main visualizer sees goes "Oh, despite this not existing, he wishes to do the sword skill Dual Blades. I will now change the fundamental laws of this world to bring Dual blades into existence."

Now, BECAUSE the MAIN VISUALIZER is the thing that CREATES the entire UNIVERSE and WORLD, interactions with Incarnation like this HAVE to change the entire simulation, it cannot be on a localized basis.

Especially since, if it was a localized basis, other people would not be able to witness what is happening as the Main Visualizer would just show them their perception rather than the changed rules and perception caused by the person's Incarnation

The Main visualizer is the thing handling the world, when you make changes that manipulate probability, make something impossible possible (like making flowers that everone else belives can't bloom in an area bloom) or making Sword Skills taht don't exist etc. the Main VIsualizer is changing everything for everyone

 

[Phoenks]

Strongly disagree.

1. None of the excerpts provided show anything close to universal-scale manipulation of reality. Just being able to manipulate the laws of the world is not enough justification for 4-D hax. Must I remind everyone that even something as trivial as magic is "the ability to manipulate aspects of reality... bypassing the laws of physics." It doesn't make the case stronger when the examples of Incarnation "interfering with laws" provided are things like basic telekinesis and creation.

2. Kirito being able to revert someone back to a previous state is just a textbook example of Restoration. And this does not have to be some widespread universal manipulation of time. Something like Josuke's Crazy Diamond does the same thing.

3. Nothing in the blog shows anything close to universal-scale manipulation of the world. The most I get from it is very small-scale probability manipulation and statistics amplification via willpower.

4. Cutting through time is Time Travel, which doesn't have any notable potency on its own. Cutting time is also just an unquantifiable application of time manipulation.

Gonna copy paste this fromt he discord argument

All the fluctlights are stored in lightcubes, these lightcubes are all within the Lightcube cluster
These lightcubes send their soul/mnemoic visual data to the Main Visualizer which is REALLY IMPORTANT, as it is the thing that creates the images and world for all people connected to see.

Important distinction the MAIN VISUALIZER is the one HANDLING all the data and CREATING the world
Not JSUT the memories
So
For instance, Kirito cannot use Dual Blades in this world because it did not come with the seed, but later he does, and does this through Incarnation, as the sheer belief in himself allowed him to manifest the Dual Blades Sword Skills.
In order to do this
His willpower must be strong enough so that the data the main visualizer sees goes "Oh, despite this not existing, he wishes to do the sword skill Dual Blades. I will now change the fundamental laws of this world to bring Dual blades into existence."

Now, BECAUSE the MAIN VISUALIZER is the thing that CREATES the entire UNIVERSE and WORLD, interactions with Incarnation like this HAVE to change the entire simulation, it cannot be on a localized basis.

Especially since, if it was a localized basis, other people would not be able to witness what is happening as the Main Visualizer would just show them their perception rather than the changed rules and perception caused by the person's Incarnation

The Main visualizer is the thing handling the world, when you make changes that manipulate probability, make something impossible possible (like making flowers that everone else belives can't bloom in an area bloom) or making Sword Skills taht don't exist etc. the Main VIsualizer is changing everything for everyone

Ignoring that no scans are even brought up for these points, the fact remains that nobody in the verse ever showcases the ability to universally warp the world in any way, shape, or form. Merely being able to subjectively influence your reality on a small scale does not mean you are manipulating the whole of that reality, even if said world is based on the collective memory of the individuals.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Strongly disagree.

1. None of the excerpts provided show anything close to universal-scale manipulation of reality. Just being able to manipulate the laws of the world is not enough justification for 4-D hax. Must I remind everyone that even something as trivial as magic is "the ability to manipulate aspects of reality... bypassing the laws of physics." It doesn't make the case stronger when the examples of Incarnation "interfering with laws" provided are things like basic telekinesis and creation.

2. Kirito being able to revert someone back to a previous state is just a textbook example of Restoration. And this does not have to be some widespread universal manipulation of time. Something like Josuke's Crazy Diamond does the same thing.

3. Nothing in the blog shows anything close to universal-scale manipulation of the world. The most I get from it is very small-scale probability manipulation and statistics amplification via willpower.

4. Cutting through time is Time Travel, which doesn't have any notable potency on its own. Cutting time is also just an unquantifiable application of time manipulation.



Ignoring that no scans are even brought up for these points, the fact remains that nobody in the verse ever showcases the ability to universally warp the world in any way, shape, or form. Merely being able to subjectively influence your reality on a small scale does not mean you are manipulating the whole of that reality, even if said world is based on the collective memory of the individuals.

We already talked about it and the conclusion I reached is that you have a skill issue and just refuse to understand how SAO works.

 

[Phoenks]

We already talked about it and the conclusion I reached is that you have a skill issue and just refuse to understand how SAO works.

You've got ridiculous levels of sportsmanship

 

[CurrySenpai]

You've got ridiculous levels of sportsmanship

I'm your biggest hater.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Neutral, but can we refrain from taking too many potshots here?

Let’s not make this too personal

 

[CurrySenpai]

Anways I'll comment soon

 

[DMUA]

Real endearing conduct.

Ignoring that no scans are even brought up for these points, the fact remains that nobody in the verse ever showcases the ability to universally warp the world in any way, shape, or form. Merely being able to subjectively influence your reality on a small scale does not mean you are manipulating the whole of that reality, even if said world is based on the collective memory of the individuals.

This really is just where it stops. None of the feats suggest the entire universe bends around Kirito, the sword skill example in particular falls flat because he only manifested it for himself through incarnation- it's not like he supplied every single person with it simultaneously, anyone who learns it besides him does it through their own incarnation and fudging a line of code or two for themselves. He didn't bend the universe on a 4D scale to include the ability, just his own arsenal.

 

[Vietthai96]

If i'm not wrong, the arguments is similar to, i draw a portion of power from a 4d source so i'm 4d, however in reality, this, iirc is just the mechanic of the verse, when using skill, the simulation/system will help to generate the effect, but the effect itself is on a very limited scale

Beside, even ignore everything, bend the universe isn't make you 4d cause universe still 3-A, unless you can prove space-time/timeline is also involved and get bended as well, and from what i remember, the simulation isn't pass Solar System in size, let alone Universal

 

[GarrixianXD]

Beside, even ignore everything, bend the universe isn't make you 4d cause universe still 3-A, unless you can prove space-time/timeline is also involved and get bended as well, and from what i remember, the simulation isn't pass Solar System in size, let alone Universal

Pretty sure the standards has been changed that even pocket realities that aren’t universal in size qualify for Low 2-C.

Anyways, CurrySenpai forgot to mention dimensional manipulation which was the main thing shown. I do see this viable since the world and the time axis was directly mentioned.

 

[Vietthai96]

Pretty sure the standards has been changed that even pocket realities that aren’t universal in size qualify for Low 2-C.

If time is involved, yes, and the entire time dimension must be affected, in order to qualify

And you stalking me lmao, no excuse me i'm going to make my escapse

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Pretty sure the standards has been changed that even pocket realities that aren’t universal in size qualify for Low 2-C.

No one did a thread in relation to that recently, the standards remains the same

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Pretty sure the standards has been changed that even pocket realities that aren’t universal in size qualify for Low 2-C.

Anyways, CurrySenpai forgot to mention dimensional manipulation which was the main thing shown. I do see this viable since the world and the time axis was directly mentioned.

Don’t think the standards has actually changed yet given this is still here.

“If the pocket reality is of comparable size to a universe and has its own timeline, this would simply be a Low 2-C feat according to the tiering system. Similarly Multiverses or even higher levels of reality would get their corresponding tier.”

Creation Feats

Creation feats are feats in which a character creates objects from nothing by means like Reality Warping or similar. This separates them from feats in which objects are created from already existing materials, which would be calculated by conventional methods, or feats that qualify for...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[GarrixianXD]

Well, I remember there were discussion about it. But since it hasn’t been applied, womp womp.

 

[CurrySenpai]

woooow Womp womp

 

[CurrySenpai]

Alright back to do nothing and waiting for the next universe shaking thread

 

[Vietthai96]

I keep getting tricked by @GarrixianXD

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I keep getting tricked by @GarrixianXD

Jebaited hard.