Sans VS Janemba (Shin Budokai)

[Penguinkingpin]

Janemba wins imo. He has multiple hax he could use on him and also has no soul, he is just pure evil energy, karmic retribution needs a soul to damage, so yeah, it won't likely work. And Janemba's other regen, non corporeal nature will make sans other attacks pointless.
Main point though is he has no soul, so KR won't work as it is something that attacks the soul.

Haha...Yeah, because Janemba, a being who is made of all evil from hell wouldn't have any souls, y'know, the thing that goes to hell or heaven after you die.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Only he has no soul, he is the evil energy that infected the souls which was removed from them, not the souls themselves, we know he has no soul since when he dies there is no soul that goes to heaven or hell like every other character in the series, and he was just pure evil energy to begin with, he never had any soul. So KR effects the soul, and because he has none it is useless against him most likely, therefore he would win imo.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Janemba wins imo. He has multiple hax he could use on him and also has no soul, he is just pure evil energy, karmic retribution needs a soul to damage, so yeah, it won't likely work. And Janemba's other regen, non corporeal nature will make sans other attacks pointless.
Main point though is he has no soul, so KR won't work as it is something that attacks the soul.

Soul in Undertale isn't the same as soul in Dragon Ball. A "soul" is literally the culmination of a conscious being's existence, and vary from being to being. For instance, human souls and monster souls are very different, but still both "souls". There's also the fact that Sans is implied to have killed Flowey multiple times, who is a being who can use Determination despite having no soul.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

Janemba wins imo. He has multiple hax he could use on him and also has no soul, he is just pure evil energy, karmic retribution needs a soul to damage, so yeah, it won't likely work. And Janemba's other regen, non corporeal nature will make sans other attacks pointless.
Main point though is he has no soul, so KR won't work as it is something that attacks the soul.

Soul in Undertale isn't the same as soul in Dragon Ball. A "soul" is literally the culmination of a conscious being's existence, and vary from being to being. For instance, human souls and monster souls are very different, but still both "souls". There's also the fact that Sans is implied to have killed Flowey multiple times, who is a being who can use Determination despite having no soul.

Thank you Azazoth.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Interesting. I wasn't aware of that. However I'm still sceptical of if it would work, they may be different seemingly in monsters, but apparently in humans souls are the essence of them, and not their entire being, so in that context it almost seems like monsters are simply souls with magic bodies, while humans are as they are depicted in most media to have a body and soul separate.

http://undertale.wikia.com/wiki/SOUL

Of course I am no expert on the series so I may be missing something. I'd still go with janemba since we can't prove the technique can work on a soulless being like him, and if it doesn't we both agree Janemba takes it, but I agree if it works Sans would win since speed is equalised here to.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Soul = the culmination of your being. They can be vastly different depending on the species, but that's the definition Undertale uses. For instance, monster souls don't exist after death. They simply stop being. Human souls last after death, and can still directly affect the world.

As for the soulless thing, as I already said, it worked on Flowey, who's probably much closer to "soulless" by Undertale standards than Janemba.

 

[Blahblah9755]

I'll give it to Sans since he should be able to get in the first blow with his gravity manipulation and cleverness, and this seems like a who strikes first wins match

 

[SomebodyData]

I have to say that Janemba's afterimages + range would probably save him in this battle, the afterimages would distract Sans while his range would allow him to attack Sans. Not to mention that Janemba can revive the dead or make clones to also get Sans distracted while moving to a safe distance.

Not to mention Janemba can be incoporeal...

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

snip

Define "safe distance" from someone who can teleport attacks and himself.

 

[SomebodyData]

Define "safe distance" from someone who can teleport attacks and himself.

Define "teleport" because if Sans is distracted long enough for Janemba to get out of his sight Sans won't know where to go, but Janemba would know Sans is.

Not to mention clones = both attack, distraction, and body shield

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Isn't he only incorporeal in his evil energy state, and since speed is equalized, can't he not enter it?

 

[SSJRyu1]

yeah im just not sold on KR working due to it relying on the soul, it might since as you said souls in Undertale seem different with monsters, but humans seem the same to me, and it should be equivalent even if slightly different. So it is unknown if it will work, and if it doesn't janembas regen, non corporeal nature, duplication, reviving the dead and so on as well as raw power I think would overwhelm him for sure personally. So I still say Janemba.

 

[Pocket-Chu]

Soooo.....anyone know what the current score is?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@SomebodyData

Except he won't get out of sight from a much, much more skilled combatant who is far, far better at reading his foe's slightest movement or expression. Not to mention said clones are still linked to Janemba.

@SSJRyu1

I already told you it doesn't need a soul to work and told you the soulless character it worked on.

 

[MafiaFox]

"Resistance to direct Soul Manipulation due to seemingly lacking a soul"

Shouldn't that give sans a huge disadvantage here?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I hear a lot about reviving the dead. How will that help when Sans could probably end them outright?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"Resistance to direct Soul Manipulation due to seemingly lacking a soul"
Shouldn't that give sans a huge disadvantage here?

See above comment about KR not needing a soul.

 

[MafiaFox]

"Resistance to direct Soul Manipulation due to seemingly lacking a soul"Shouldn't that give sans a huge disadvantage here?

See above comment about KR not needing a soul.

Oh it's KR, sorry I forgot.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Oh it's KR, sorry I forgot.

Not an issue.

 

[SomebodyData]

Except he won't get out of sight from a much, much more skilled combatant who is far, far better at reading his foe's slightest movement or expression. Not to mention said clones are still linked to Janemba.

Reading Janemba? I guess thats possible but I doubt it. You also seem to forget that Janemba can revert attacks from Sans and teleport it to him too. Said clones are could also be replaced by the enemies that Janemba could ressurrect, which I would doubt that Sans would be able to hold off if they began to gang up on him.

 

[SomebodyData]

I hear a lot about reviving the dead. How will that help when Sans could probably end them outright?

Actually, I also have a question if Sans can supposeably "end you outright" then how come Flowey and Frisk can keep coming back?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Reading Janemba? I guess thats possible but I doubt it. You also seem to forget that Janemba can revert attacks from Sans and teleport it to him too. Said clones are could also be replaced by the enemies that Janemba could ressurrect, which I would doubt that Sans would be able to hold off if they began to gang up on him.

Sans is a lot better at reading enemies a lot less expressive than Janemba. Janemba's also not going to be able to defend against the volume of attacks Sans can put out for more than a couple seconds. There's also the fact that you're assuming Janemba will use the dead in a one on one fight, which he almost never does, and probably wouldn't be useful anyway, considering Sans would just have to get Janemba to make them go away. They don't remain if he's defeated.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Actually, I also have a question if Sans can supposeably "end you outright" then how come Flowey and Frisk can keep coming back?

Because they can use Determination to reset the world and revive themselves? That's not a thing Janemba does.

 

[SomebodyData]

Sans is a lot better at reading enemies a lot less expressive than Janemba. Janemba's also not going to be able to defend against the volume of attacks Sans can put out for more than a couple seconds. There's also the fact that you're assuming Janemba will use the dead in a one on one fight, which he almost never does, and probably wouldn't be useful anyway, considering Sans would just have to get Janemba to make them go away. They don't remain if he's defeated.

Actually, I realize thats true, although "enemies" would only really be Frisk. (Just sayian)

Additionally, niether would Sans from all of the clone/dead attacking him, actually clones = worse for Sans, as they can still teleport his attacks against Sans, thanks for clarifing that Janemba rarely uses the dead.

You're also assuming he can't dodge all the attacks that Frisk can dodge, which seems rather absurd since their speed is now equalized

Although, would Sans know that? Not to mention how he distungish him from the clones who are all teleporting his attacks back

 

[SomebodyData]

Because they can use Determination to reset the world and revive themselves? That's not a thing Janemba does.

Yeah, I know they have determination. But you would think that complete and utter destruction of a person's being would sound like it could bypass that.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

i have no idea about who would win

 

[SSJRyu1]

Did it state directly that Flowey has no soul and that he was killed with KR permanently? If so I could see the argument that it would work on janemba being solid, if not I don't think there is enough proof to assume it will.

Also even still, if janemba can get to him first via hax or raw power he could potentially kill him before he can get to use it. So I am still gonna say Janemba wins imo.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Actually, I realize thats true, although "enemies" would only really be Frisk. (Just sayian)

Additionally, niether would Sans from all of the clone/dead attacking him, actually clones = worse for Sans, as they can still teleport his attacks against Sans, thanks for clarifing that Janemba rarely uses the dead.

You're also assuming he can't dodge all the attacks that Frisk can dodge, which seems rather absurd since their speed is now equalized

Although, would Sans know that? Not to mention how he distungish him from the clones who are all teleporting his attacks back

That's only one enemy. There's also Flowey, who is a looooot more sporadic than Janemba.

No, I mean hitting one clone would hurt Janemba due to the nature of KR. They're all linked to his evil energy. They're not just completely disconnected entities.

You're assuming Frisk dodged all those attacks on their first try, which isn't even close to true. They also didn't dodge ALL the attacks even if we assume that, which Janemba would need to do in this fight.

Sans could look at Frisk's face and tell how many times he'd killed them. He's pretty combat savvy.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Did it state directly that Flowey has no soul and that he was killed with KR permanently? If so I could see the argument that it would work on janemba being solid, if not I don't think there is enough proof to assume it will.
Also even still, if janemba can get to him first via hax or raw power he could potentially kill him before he can get to use it. So I am still gonna say Janemba wins imo.

One of the main points of his character, which is made throughout the game, is that he's soulless and "empty". He also would have been killed permanently, had it not been for the fact he could use Determination to reset everything while being a disembodied and dead consciousness.

Janemba is nowhere near skilled enough to do that if speed is equalized. Sans entire style is fighting dirty, and I really don't think Janemba's ready for that. He's not even that great at dodging attacks. He usually just tanks damage he thinks won't hurt him.

 

[SomebodyData]

That's only one enemy. There's also Flowey, who is a looooot more sporadic than Janemba.

No, I mean hitting one clone would hurt Janemba due to the nature of KR. They're all linked to his evil energy. They're not just completely disconnected entities.

You're assuming Frisk dodged all those attacks on their first try, which isn't even close to true. They also didn't dodge ALL the attacks even if we assume that, which Janemba would need to do in this fight.

Sans could look at Frisk's face and tell how many times he'd killed them. He's pretty combat savvy.

Flowey's face literally changes depending on what he is saying, reading him is like reading a book that Goku can read (which is really not that many) lol

Yeah, I know, I was refering to the fact that they can also teleport Sans' attacks

Well Sans will be spread pretty thin

Isn't that just awareness of the times the worlds that have been reset?

 

[SomebodyData]

had it not been for the fact he could use Determination to reset everything while being a disembodied and dead consciousness.
I thought that after death monsters simply stopped existing? Wouldn't Janemba's Low-Godly Regen allow him to come back if his consciousness still "exists"?

 

[SSJRyu1]

But his consciousness still survives it, so I have doubt that it could kill off janemba's true form which is basically his consciousness as well with no soul. Maybe a body, but I don't see it killing the non corporeal pure evil energy.

Janemba can trade blows with the z fighters so his hand to hand skills and energy projection is actually high end. Also his clones of himself and others, and the dead he can revive would really be a big asset to help him in combat.

So I still think Janemba has this.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Flowey's face literally changes depending on what he is saying, reading him is like reading a book that Goku can read (which is really not that many) lol

Yeah, I know, I was refering to the fact that they can also teleport Sans' attacks

Well Sans will be spread pretty thin

Isn't that just awareness of the times the worlds that have been reset?

I guess that's why he managed to trick everyone, then. Flowey's very expressive. That by no means indicates his expression shows what he's actually feeling until he wants it to.

Janemba's teleportation is a lot less "specific" than Sans', though. Sans would have a much easier time teleporting numerous attacks in the middle of battle, or teleporting Janemba.

Sans has no idea when the world resets. Just that it does. He can only tell how many times Frisk/Chara has been killed by the increasing intensity/anger in their expression.

 

[The_Everlasting]

had it not been for the fact he could use Determination to reset everything while being a disembodied and dead consciousness.

I thought that after death monsters simply stopped existing? Wouldn't Janemba's Low-Godly Regen allow him to come back if his consciousness still "exists"?
Well, Flowey isn't exactly a normal monster. He's basically a bed of flowers given Determination with some shadow of a similarity to Asriel.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

But his consciousness still survives it, so I have doubt that it could kill off janemba's true form which is basically his consciousness as well with no soul. Maybe a body, but I don't see it killing the non corporeal pure evil energy.
Janemba can trade blows with the z fighters so his hand to hand skills and energy projection is actually high end. Also his clones of himself and others, and the dead he can revive would really be a big asset to help him in combat.

So I still think Janemba has this.

Flowey and Chara's consciousness is something totally outside of time and space which can operate even if they themselves are dead and gone. Janemba is evil energy. If that energy is destroyed, so is he. He's just gone.

You don't need to be more skilled than your opponent if you're simply superior to them in every other aspect and they have nothing to counter it. This is pretty much the case between Janemba and most of the Z Fighters in the game. When he does fight someone who can counter it, he got absolutely wrecked.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well, Flowey isn't exactly a normal monster. He's basically a bed of flowers given Determination with some shadow of a similarity to Asriel.

Flowey is, by definition, not a monster at all. The only thing that can relate him to a monster is that part of his consciousness used to belong to one, but he himself is not one.

 

[SomebodyData]

I guess that's why he managed to trick everyone, then. Flowey's very expressive. That by no means indicates his expression shows what he's actually feeling until he wants it to.

Janemba's teleportation is a lot less "specific" than Sans', though. Sans would have a much easier time teleporting numerous attacks in the middle of battle, or teleporting Janemba.

Sans has no idea when the world resets. Just that it does. He can only tell how many times Frisk/Chara has been killed by the increasing intensity/anger in their expression.

I'm pretty sure that Flowey would be raging (pretty badly too) against Sans, maybe the first times he would have to read him, but with Sans' teleportation I doubt he would have to be that combat savvy to beat him. Not to mention, Sans can miss his first hits against Frisk, which would suggest his reading isn't as good as say being able to read the "slightest movement"

"SpecIfic"? I remember Janemba teleporting his hand right next to Goku to blow him up.

I've got to ask, how can he know everything from LV to EXP but not know when the World resets? It would seem weird that he lacks that important knowledge

 

[SomebodyData]

Flowey is, by definition, not a monster at all. The only thing that can relate him to a monster is that part of his consciousness used to belong to one, but he himself is not one.

The point still kinda stands, his consciousness is that of a monster.

Unless you consider him something else.

Like a manster. Or a Mower.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'm pretty sure that Flowey would be raging (pretty badly too) against Sans, maybe the first times he would have to read him, but with Sans' teleportation I doubt he would have to be that combat savvy to beat him. Not to mention, Sans can miss his first hits against Frisk, which would suggest his reading isn't as good as say being able to read the "slightest movement"

"SpecIfic"? I remember Janemba teleporting his hand right next to Goku to blow him up.

I've got to ask, how can he know everything from LV to EXP but not know when the World resets? It would seem weird that he lacks that important knowledge

You sure about that? Because he was pretty good at pretending to be defeated...twice. He can lose control, but that doesn't mean it's the norm.

Teleporting only your hand is different from teleporting dozens of objects and a person simultaneously in the midst of battle.

Because one of them regards him being able to essentially tell how many people you've killed and how much pain you've caused (not to mention monsters are repeatedly shown and mentioned to be naturally empathic), while the other is something completely out of his control which wipes his mind.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The point still kinda stands, his consciousness is that of a monster.

Unless you consider him something else.

Like a manster. Or a Mower.

Consciousness is only a single part of your being, though. It is also shown to be separate from your soul, provided you have enough Determination (i.e. Frisk can reset the world even after their soul is destroyed).

Not to mention the game constantly treats Flowey as entirely different from anything else which has ever existed.