Sanji vs Oldbeard

[ZKillerz]

Yeah WB kind of just takes this

Marco was clapping the **** out of Queen and was pretty equal to King, while Sanji struggled with the former despite having a colossal speed advantage

I know Kachon is gonna say "That was because of Queen's tricks!" And to that I say "And you're implying turning the battlefield into paper mache ISN'T a good trick?"

I am not aware of any scene where Marco is shown clapping Queen.

As far as I remember, Marco caught Queen off-guard and was able to avoid his blows due to his intangibility (not superior speed), which is what Queen complained about.

However, Queen was capable of tagging Marco's Zoan form, indicating that he is still capable of reacting to him.

At best you could argue marco scales to queen's laser speed but his lasers dont scale to his physical speed so that's not very helpful.

If you want to scale marco over queen via scaling to king that's alright (although I would need to see your argument first) however you cant scale marco directly above queen due to the reasons I showed above especially if we're talking about germa enhanced hybrid queen.

 

[Sus]

yeah i agree, shanks didnt blitz kidd

 

[ZKillerz]

If you actually knew what I was saying you'd know I'm not implying that Ifrit Jambe is massively weaker than Marco but just that Sanji needed his strongest attack to match the amount of damage Marco did to Zoan Queen.

Are you suggesting that Sanji requires Ifrit Jambe to make Queen bleed?

It should be noted that Sanji is depicted kicking off Queen's arm and causing him to scream in agony as he falls to the ground. This is a stark contrast to Marco's attacks, which Queen recovers from almost instantly. Even Marco's attack on the untransformed Queen resulted in a quick recovery.

Therefore, it isn't accurate to say that Marco is comparable to Ifrit Jambe Sanji. At most, it could be argued that Marco, (while using dura neg), has some similarity to Diable Jambe Sanji.

 

[SlendVeny]

Oldbeard FRA

 

[Eseseso]

This match is already on both profiles.

 

[SlendVeny]

This match is already on both profiles.

Oh, I just confused cuz the votes weren't listed.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Are you suggesting that Sanji requires Ifrit Jambe to make Queen bleed?

It should be noted that Sanji is depicted kicking off Queen's arm and causing him to scream in agony as he falls to the ground. This is a stark contrast to Marco's attacks, which Queen recovers from almost instantly. Even Marco's attack on the untransformed Queen resulted in a quick recovery.

I was talking about the fact that he coughs an abundance of blood and outright says that it hurt.
Meanwhile he almost never reacts to Sanji's attacks like this, bar IJ, which is why I said IJ~Marco's Phoenix Brand.

 

[Kachon123]

he almost never reacts to Sanji's attacks like this

Sanji is depicted kicking off Queen's arm and causing him to scream in agony as he falls to the ground.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

He's just screaming because he lost an arm lol.
I'd say that's kind of a reasonable reaction.

 

[Kachon123]

He's just screaming because he lost an arm lol.
I'd say that's kind of a reasonable reaction.

That was after Sanji kicked him in the torso.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Ah, if so, then my bad.
The way he worded it made me think it's him getting his arm kicked off that made him scream like a banshee.
Still, didn't seem to draw much blood, and Idk if you can compare Hybrid Queen to Zoan Queen.

 

[Kachon123]

The way he worded it made me think it's him getting his arm kicked off that made him scream like a banshee.

True

Still, didn't seem to draw much blood,

I don't think we can compare Marco hitting an off-guard Queen in the throat and causing him to spill blood to Sanji kicking Queen in the torso and causing him to fall to his knees wailing in pain without drawing as much in order to claim that Marco has greater attack power.

Idk if you can compare Hybrid Queen to Zoan Queen.

Why not

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I don't think we can compare Marco hitting an off-guard Queen in the throat and causing him to spill blood to Sanji kicking Queen in the torso and causing him to fall to his knees wailing in pain without drawing as much in order to claim that Marco has greater attack power.

I suppose, but then again even IJ's scaling comes from hitting an off-guard Queen too, it's not exactly what you're talking about but still.

Why not

iirc Zoan Queen > Hybrid, right?

 

[Kachon123]

iirc Zoan Queen > Hybrid, right?

No?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Huh, weird.

 

[Kachon123]

Huh, weird.

If anything it'd be the other way around

 

[ZKillerz]

Ah, if so, then my bad.
The way he worded it made me think it's him getting his arm kicked off that made him scream like a banshee.
Still, didn't seem to draw much blood, and Idk if you can compare Hybrid Queen to Zoan Queen.

The amount of blood spilled does not necessarily reflect the amount of damage dealt. It's important to consider the impact of both attacks on Queen to make a proper comparison. Moreover, it's worth noting that both Diable Jambe and Ifrit Jambe are primarily heat-based attacks. Sure there is blunt force trauma packed behind the kick but the true ap of the attack comes from sanji's flames

When looking at the damage dealt to Queen, it's clear that Sanji's Diable Jambe kick was just as impactful, if not more so, than Marco's attacks. Despite not causing as much bleeding.

This is evident from the fact that, although Ifrit Jambe is implied to provide a significant power boost compared to Diable Jambe, the blood drawn from Queen by Sanji's Ifrit Jambe kicks is virtually indistinguishable from the blood drawn by his Diable Jambe kicks. This lends credence to the idea that blood is not an accurate indicator of the amount of damage inflicted.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

The amount of blood spilled does not necessarily reflect the amount of damage dealt. It's important to consider the impact of both attacks on Queen to make a proper comparison. Moreover, it's worth noting that both Diable Jambe and Ifrit Jambe are primarily heat-based attacks. Sure there is blunt force trauma packed behind the kick but the true ap of the attack comes from sanji's flames

I mean, up until IJ, the flames didn't really do much to Queen.
Hell, Sanji him self admitted his attacks weren't doing enough to Queen, which is the entire reason he used IJ in the first place.

 

[Kachon123]

Hell, Sanji him self admitted his attacks weren't doing enough to Queen, which is the entire reason he used IJ in the first place.

He said that before he awakened.

After his awakening, a single kick was able to obliterate Queen' mech arm which is more durable than his zoan body.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I find it strange to use Shank's movement and jumping speed to scale Oldbeard since Oldbeard most likely doesn't scale to those factors. After all, Shank's movement speed is what allowed him to close the gap and catch Kid off guard in the first place.

Furthermore, the claim that Shanks is superior to Kid is also debatable. While Shanks did attack Kid, it's important to consider that Kid was in the middle of his own attack. It's reasonable to argue that Kid's movements were impaired due to being attached to Damned Punk. This is further supported by the fact that Killer was able to react and even attempted to block Shanks' attack.

Kidd literally saw him jumping at him and even called his name.

Regarding Whitebeard's superior durability, unless I am mistaken, wasn't he pierced by multiple Vice Admirals and even someone as weak as Squard? If your saying he's going to defend with haki then you need to substantiate that via reaction feats.

As for his damage output, I don't believe this can be considered a valid win condition. If Whitebeard throws punches at random, it would leave him vulnerable. Unlike whitebeard, sanji has Airwalk, so destroying the battlefield and creating a difficult terrain to fight in only serves to help Sanji. Additionally, Whitebeard's quake punches would probably not deal any significant damage to Sanji if he doesn't land them while he is close to him.

Regarding enhanced speed and IJ scaling, I cannot see why a base Sanji or Diable Jambe Sanji wouldn't drastically outscale Oldbeard. Even with the most favorable interpretations of his feats during Marineford, Oldbeard is barely faster than Marco, while Sanji is multiple levels above Marco's speed.

As for Queen's statement, some people take this out of context and assume it means that Sanji can't use his full speed for an extended period of time. This is not what Queen stated. All Queen said was that Sanji would eventually need to reappear, which he would, as Sanji doesn't have infinite stamina. It doesn't imply a timeframe or anything of that sort. Even if it did, it's important to note that Sanji was severely fatigued at that point, so that's not a valid debunk.

If we take this at face value, Sanji undoubtedly has better stamina than Oldbeard, just not better endurance. Unless we're using a hypothetically healthy Oldbeard, there is no way that a cancer patient like him would be able to outlast Sanji without having a heart attack since he can't stay hooked up to his meds while fighting. Remember that marco stated (even before the fighting started) whitebeard's sickness already had an effect on his performance! So in a fight against a superhuman that can regenerate how is this cancer patient supposed to outlast him without dying of sickness or heart attack first?

The problem with arguing that Oldbeard will last against Sanji like he did against Akainu is that Akainu doesn't fight like Sanji. Akainu doesn't follow up on critical blows, which is a significant factor that could have potentially helped him win against Whitebeard during his first heart attack. However, for some reason, Akainu is not a smart fighter when it comes to that. Sanji, on the other hand, is completely different. If you give him an opportunity to attack you, he's going to bring the pain.

Not reading allat but he had a heart attack due to Akainu, Kizaru, and Squard's attacks on him.
2 of which scale considerably above Sanji's AP.

 

[Sus]

yall debating wether sanji hurt queen or not as if it matters
wb should be able to tank hits from big mom's homies whereas her base stomps queen

 

[ZKillerz]

Kidd literally saw him jumping at him and even called his name.

Not reading allat but he had a heart attack due to Akainu, Kizaru, and Squard's attacks on him.
2 of which scale considerably above Sanji's AP.

If you had read my post, you would know that what I said remains unchanged. kid saw Shanks jumping, but he was still in the middle of charging his own attack. If all one needs is killer levels of speed to be capable of reacting to Shanks' attacks, then there is no justification for scaling him so high.

While it is true that Whitebeard was able to block these one-off attacks, the point of my post is to highlight the difference between being attacked once and being attacked relentlessly. Moreover, if Whitebeard's durability is so low that even Vice Admirals can deeply pierce his body, then the fact that Sanji's attack power is lower than Akainu's becomes inconsequential.

To illustrate my point, it is like asking a pro boxer to break a wall made of pillows versus asking a regular guy to do the same thing. There would be virtually no difference!

 

[DaMonkeMan]

If you had read my post, you would know that what I said remains unchanged. kid saw Shanks jumping, but he was still in the middle of charging his own attack. If all one needs is killer levels of speed to be capable of reacting to Shanks' attacks, then there is no justification for scaling him so high.

While it is true that Whitebeard was able to block these one-off attacks, the point of my post is to highlight the difference between being attacked once and being attacked relentlessly. Moreover, if Whitebeard's durability is so low that even Vice Admirals can deeply pierce his body, then the fact that Sanji's attack power is lower than Akainu's becomes inconsequential.

To illustrate my point, it is like asking a pro boxer to break a wall made of pillows versus asking a regular guy to do the same thing. There would be virtually no difference!

So you're implying
That Shanks
Who clashed with Oldbeard, Kaidou, etc.
Is only Killer-level in terms of speed?
I imagine that's gonna age well..

 

[DaReaperMan]

If you had read my post, you would know that what I said remains unchanged. kid saw Shanks jumping, but he was still in the middle of charging his own attack. If all one needs is killer levels of speed to be capable of reacting to Shanks' attacks, then there is no justification for scaling him so high.

While it is true that Whitebeard was able to block these one-off attacks, the point of my post is to highlight the difference between being attacked once and being attacked relentlessly. Moreover, if Whitebeard's durability is so low that even Vice Admirals can deeply pierce his body, then the fact that Sanji's attack power is lower than Akainu's becomes inconsequential.

To illustrate my point, it is like asking a pro boxer to break a wall made of pillows versus asking a regular guy to do the same thing. There would be virtually no difference!

You do realize that Oldbeard became Sickbeard pretty much automatically in Marineford right? We aren't using the guy who's two deep breaths and a naginata swing from a heart attack.

Also Akainu is kind of in a realm of his own seeing as he both got put on his hands and knees in one no-Quake or haki hit from WB and also damn near ace'd whitebeard with his dura neg magma

 

[ZKillerz]

yall debating wether sanji hurt queen or not as if it matters
wb should be able to tank hits from big mom's homies whereas her base stomps queen

To what extent do we consider Big Mom's homies to be superior to her physical attack power when scaling her?
I am willing to accept that her homies' attack power combined with her physical power should be scale higher but how do we compare them one their own?.

For example, Killer was able to tank an attack from one of Big Mom's homies while off guard (so no haki) twice, but was severely injured by Hawkins just kicking him in the face!! This raises questions about the true strength of Big Mom's homies.

Furthermore, when discussing Whitebeard's scaling to Big Mom's homies, it is important to be more specific. Which attack from the homies does he scale to? Not all attacks from the homies hold the same attack power, in fact it can be argued that the ap of Big Mom's attacks fluctuates greatly.

 

[ZKillerz]

So you're implying
That Shanks
Who clashed with Oldbeard, Kaidou, etc.
Is only Killer-level in terms of speed?
I imagine that's gonna age well..

1. Shanks has no onscreen scaling to kaido so we cant speculate on how he would compare in terms of speed based off an offscreen fight
2. We are using shanks to scale oldbeard, so citing oldbeard as a feat is quite redundant no?
3. He could potentially be higher, but on this forum we dont use hypotheticals, or am I mistaken?

 

[Sus]

To what extent do we consider Big Mom's homies to be superior to her physical attack power when scaling her?
I am willing to accept that her homies' attack power combined with her physical power should be scale higher but how do we compare them one their own?.

For example, Killer was able to tank an attack from one of Big Mom's homies while off guard (so no haki) twice, but was severely injured by Hawkins just kicking him in the face!! This raises questions about the true strength of Big Mom's homies.

Furthermore, when discussing Whitebeard's scaling to Big Mom's homies, it is important to be more specific. Which attack from the homies does he scale to? Not all attacks from the homies hold the same attack power, in fact it can be argued that the ap of Big Mom's attacks fluctuates greatly.

i disagree with scaling killer to yonkos for obvious reasons so i wont respond to that
big mom's homies are trash without her commanding them
1 homie is the same amp as kaido's hybrid, as with 1 she's equal to his base and with 2 she's equal to his hybrid

 

[ZKillerz]

i disagree with scaling killer to yonkos for obvious reasons so i wont respond to that
big mom's homies are trash without her commanding them
1 homie is the same amp as kaido's hybrid, as with 1 she's equal to his base and with 2 she's equal to his hybrid

Looking at this objectively, is there a better way to explain killer reacting to him?
The attacks I am referencing "indra" and "fulgora" were launched via big mom's orders and both were tanked by killer while offguard
Is there any way of proving this? Because I am quite confused how you came to that conclusion

 

[ZKillerz]

You do realize that Oldbeard became Sickbeard pretty much automatically in Marineford right? We aren't using the guy who's two deep breaths and a naginata swing from a heart attack.

Also Akainu is kind of in a realm of his own seeing as he both got put on his hands and knees in one no-Quake or haki hit from WB and also damn near ace'd whitebeard with his dura neg magma

Is there a significant difference?
What was Whitebeard's durability before becoming Vice Admiral level sushi?

I agree that Akainu is stronger than Sanji, but I also mentioned that this fact is inconsequential because Akainu drastically scales above Oldbeard's level of durability.

There is no attack from Akainu that Whitebeard was able to tank. Every attack from Akainu either severely damaged Whitebeard or was blocked by him. Therefore, citing Akainu's attacks is not particularly important in determining Sanji's ability to harm Whitebeard.

 

[Sus]

Looking at this objectively, is there a better way to explain killer reacting to him?
The attacks I am referencing "indra" and "fulgora" were launched via big mom's orders and both were tanked by killer while offguard
Is there any way of proving this? Because I am quite confused how you came to that conclusion

sorry i didnt understand? what do you want me to prove

 

[ZKillerz]

sorry i didnt understand? what do you want me to prove

I am asking you to prove that just one of Big Mom's homies is enough to elevate her from base to hybrid Kaido level.

I am looking for an argument that is supported by either feats or statements, as I would prefer to avoid relying on simple A, B, C logic.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Is there a significant difference?
What was Whitebeard's durability before becoming Vice Admiral level sushi?

I agree that Akainu is stronger than Sanji, but I also mentioned that this fact is inconsequential because Akainu drastically scales above Oldbeard's level of durability.

This does not necessarily imply that Sanji would not be able to damage Whitebeard, as there is no attack from Akainu that Whitebeard was able to tank. Every attack from Akainu either severely damaged Whitebeard or was blocked by him. Therefore, citing Akainu's attacks is not particularly important in determining Sanji's ability to harm Whitebeard.

ACoC Shanks level. Scaling to how hard he can punch a bitch out. In physics.

In AP, yeah, Akainu is a glass cannon, and if you say his dura is above Sanji's well, ya know, previous feat of Whitebeard putting him onto his hands and knees.

He wouldn't be able to damage whitebeard as well, and when the man is this much of a stamina/endurance monster and is as big as he is, there's a hard fight without counting far better haki or a DF

 

[DaReaperMan]

I am asking you to prove that just one of Big Mom's homies is enough to elevate her from base to hybrid Kaido level.

I am looking for an argument that is supported by either feats or statements, as I would prefer to avoid relying on simple A, B, C logic.

Apparently it was implied in One Piece Vol. 100 Chapter 1008

 

[ZKillerz]

ACoC Shanks level. Scaling to how hard he can punch a bitch out. In physics.

In AP, yeah, Akainu is a glass cannon, and if you say his dura is above Sanji's well, ya know, previous feat of Whitebeard putting him onto his hands and knees.

He wouldn't be able to damage whitebeard as well, and when the man is this much of a stamina/endurance monster and is as big as he is, there's a hard fight without counting far better haki or a DF

Sorry can you explain in detail how oldbeard scales to shank's acoc?

I agree that whitebeard can severely harm sanji

Why is that the case? I understand whitebeard has good endurance and I already tackled this issue in my original breakdown of the fight. But why can whitebeard tank sanji's attacks without getting hurt?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Oldbeard ~ Shanks >= Akainu ~ Marco >= Sanjij

 

[Sus]

I am asking you to prove that just one of Big Mom's homies is enough to elevate her from base to hybrid Kaido level.

I am looking for an argument that is supported by either feats or statements, as I would prefer to avoid relying on simple A, B, C logic

with 1 homie she clashed with and fought base kaido for a day
with 2 (cognac) she performed a combined attack with his hybrid and was implied as an equal

 

[Sus]

Sorry can you explain in detail how oldbeard scales to shank's acoc?

they split the skies together

 

[DaReaperMan]

Sorry can you explain in detail how oldbeard scales to shank's acoc?

I agree that whitebeard can severely harm sanji

Why is that the case? I understand whitebeard has good endurance and I already tackled this issue in my original breakdown of the post. But why can whitebeard tank sanji's attacks without getting hurt?

You know that time Big Mom and Kaido clashed their ACoCs? Shanks and Whitebeard did that on the Moby Dick

Okay

I never said he'd no-sell them, Sanji has dura neg of his own for God's sake, they just wouldn't work well enough to make the fight go into his favor seeing as Whitebeard has an amazing DF and nuts haki

 

[Kachon123]

they split the skies together

That's quite romantic

 

[ZKillerz]

with 1 homie she clashed with and fought base kaido for a day
with 2 (cognac) she performed a combined attack with his hybrid and was implied as an equal

they split the skies together

Is she using two homies to perform her combined attack with kaido? To me it looks like she's simply standing on top of prometheus

I'm sorry but I still don't understand why that would scale whitebeard's durability to his ap...