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Samus Aran Revisions

LordNidhoggr

LordNidhoggr

158
118
Hey all, so going through Samus's profile there's been something that's been kind of quietly simmering in the back of mind for a while now, and I figure I might as well bring it up since I haven't seen anyone else mention it. I apologize in advance if this has been brought up before and I just missed it.

So, the feat in question is Samus pulling Vorash the lava whale out of the lava and throwing him around. While the description mentions this in the context of the viscosity of the lava and the size of Vorash, I think it should be used as a major strength feat because by my (very rough) calculations, throwing Vorash should put Samus comfortably within Class M. Here's my work/logic:

In order to swim and live in a liquid, an animal must be close to neutrally buoyant, usually slightly denser than the material they live in. Vorash lives in lava so we can reasonably expect him to be roughly as dense as lava, or approximately three times as dense as water (3100kg/m^3 and 997kg/m^3 respectively).

Vorash is somewhere between 30 and 50 feet long, so I took the lower number (30 feet or roughly 10m) to be safe and compared him to real-world animals to get a best-guess mass (not really sure what else to do and it's for this reason I didn't want to put this in calc discussions; hopefully this doesn't just invalidate everything). The closest match I figured was a whale shark, which at that length would weigh approximately 25 tons. Because he's three times as dense, he'd weigh about 75 tons. So far, so normal.

The thing is that Vorash is a Zebesian species, and is thus subject to the ultra-high gravity of the planet: ~960g. With that taken into account, Vorash has a mass of approximately 72,000 metric tons or 72,000,000kg - comfortably within the range for Class M. So...that's my observation and thought process, and I will leave it to those with more knowledge and a better grasp of calculation nuances (assuming it gets that far).
---
I'm also wondering about how Samus is classified when using/merged with the power of the Animus. Mainly, I'm curious if there's enough of a difference, or maybe distinction would be a better word, to the force required to destroy the universe or stop the universe from being destroyed, which is her current feat based on the exact events of the manga, and being able to remake the universe as one sees fit per one's vision, which is what the Animus essentially says it does. The Animus claims to Samus and Greed that it's essentially just a power source that whoever reaches it can use to remake the universe in the image of what has been (the past) or their own vision for what can be (the future). Greed tries to forge the future, but there's no future in pure selfishness and so he's consumed, and the time-space equivalent of that is made manifest: a universe-destroying black hole. Samus subverts the question by choosing the present, stopping the ongoing destruction, and allowing the universe to go on as it was, with the implication that she merged with the Animus and ascended to some higher state in the process.

Basically, what I'm asking is: do the claims of the Animus being able to remake the universe based on the user's desires qualify as destroying/creating a 4th-dimensional universe, aka a universe and the timeline(s) that are bound to it? Secondly, do we take Samus as using this power, either as a conduit or via merger with the Animus, as affecting the timeline(s) of the universe when she saves it from destruction, given she was canceling out Greed's "future?"

Looking forward to hearing what you think.
 
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I'll tag @SomebodyData for this as he's the main expert. The Vorash calculation should be moved to a blog post on the wiki; and the detail about Vorash being native to lava is reasonable; but Bottleship isn't quite assumed to have Zebes level gravity. And where is it stated that Vorash is a Zebesian? Or is the lava in the Bottleship Zebesian lava?

Anyway, fodder Zebesians do have some casual Class 100 to Class K feats just from their state of beings alone, and Class M would be consistent with Kraid's calculation. But I'd like to see some more sources first.
 
Er, the Bottleship is meant to be/contain a close approximation, if not 1-to-1 recreation, of Zebes biomes. Everything on it, with the exception of Federation-creations like Nightmare, are Zebesian species that were either transplanted or cloned; or they were part of Space Pirate weapons programs on Zebes that the Federation sought to co-opt through their clone of Mother Brain. Before they focused on Metroids, anyway. For the animals to behave and survive naturally, a natural Zebes gravity has to be assumed.

I will post it on a blog. Though, what's the difference between a revision and a blog post? The certainty of the calc? Genuinely asking, just so I know where to post stuff going forward.
 
Fair enough, but I'd still prefer to hear input from SD. Though, I have a feeling that some might use fodder marines surviving as a possible argument against unless they have gravity suits of their own.

Blogs are needed to be made in order to have calculations approved. Which I see you already made the blog, but you can ask for evaluations on the calculations via this thread.
 
Gotcha, thanks. I submitted the calc in the thread.

And fair enough; I'm curious to hear what @SomebodyData thinks, too. That said, I don't think having the Troopers being able to function inside the ship is a problem for two reasons: we never see anyone inside the Zebes biomes without some kind of power armor on, and more importantly: pretty much all of the worlds we know of in the Metroid-verse are super-heavy. While Samus was altered to be able to survive and function on inhospitable planets that other humans couldn't, it seems that some level of ultra-gravity is actually the norm. I have a bunch of theories and headcanon about how and why and how humans survive, but for battles, it translates to the very high strength and durability stats we tend to see from Metroid characters.
 
Don’t have much input on the lifting strength part since that’s not my expertise, but if the white holes Samus used was capable of saving the universe, and it includes space time as a whole, I could see 3-A to Low 2-C, but I need scans for this cause I never read the manga myself.
 
Well we know its not impossible for the gravity to be the same (Afterall, we know that a GF trooper survived on Zebes long enough to get to the front of Kraid's Lair), I'd just prefer more evidence.

I brought up the White Hole rating before but got shot down. Can't say I remember the reasoning though.
 
SomebodyData:

Thank you for the evaluations.

All:

So what should we do here then?
 
I share the same thoughts as SD on the lifting strength part, though I also do agree that it's worth looking into and considering. Otherwise, my Kraid calc could use a calc group evaluation.

As for the White Hole feat, I was going to tackle that at some point. But yes, it really should be 3-A at bare minimum given that Black Hole was literally going to eat the entire Universe. I'm not sure if there was evidence about Space-Time being devourered; some of the Q/A of Animus did mention things of Past, Present, and Future. Though, the wiki mentions "The Universe being reset" which is a Low 2-C implication. But prefer a specific Manga scan for that.

Furthermore, there are statements from reliable sources describing the Metroid Universe as being Infinite in size in the Chozo lore. The Tallon IV Chozo were able to see the past, present, and Future on an omnipresent scale, so they both have great knowledge and no reason to lie. And it literally says Infinite as opposed to Endless, or Eternal. So it can be interpreted as High 3-A even. However, even so SD is skeptical on that but I still think it's reasonable to at least consider the Metroid Universe much larger than the Observable Universe. So the feat could be above baseline 3-A. Where even lowballing it slightly would still make it in the 3-A range.
 
I have come bearing scans. Also, huge thanks to everyone for taking a look and weighing in.

So, these are all scans from Samus and Joey Extreme, interactions with the Animus. I've highlighted the most relevant parts for Samus's top-tier feat reassessment, which is something I absolutely believe hits 2-C. Also, given this is the very end of the manga SPOILERS!!!

To me, it's pretty obvious that the Animus has the power to completely rewrite, create, or destroy the entire spacetime of the Metroid universe, and Samus gains that power to save the universe from annihilation brought on by Greed's avarice and weak will.

Now, the lifting feat seems to be a bit harder to confirm (which is kind of funny to me as I thought for sure it was going to be the Animus thing that would be hard, if not denied right off the bat), as I can find no official sources about the exact nature of the Bottle Ship's gravity. However, I think that there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that demonstrates that the ship, at least the biomes, have Zebes's hyper-gravity:
  • Samus's physicality, in particular, her jumping abilities and running capabilities have not changed drastically, if at all, when compared to abilities on Zebes. This could be passed off as her Power Suit compensating for the difference, but Samus was able to perform highly acrobatic feats without her armor on Zebes, so for the suit to make up the difference in this scenario it would have to drastically increase her own mass in order to replicate the effects of the high-gravity she's used to functioning in. It is possible that she's mastered her body and physicality to a truly incredible level, like Superman, but if we're going for the simplest explanation, I think the ship having Zebes gravity is Occam's Razor in this instance.
  • The flora and fauna on board the ship are all behaving normally and have developed normally, physically speaking. A low-gravity environment would lead to weaker bones and shells, a disruption of most of the senses as they rely on gravity in some way, and other problems that don't appear to be harming the population on the ship much. The clearest examples of this are the species we see in both Other M and Super Metroid, like the Space Pirates, Zebesians, and Kihunters. Their behavior and toughness appear unchanged from their terrestrial counterparts, apart from the Federation-upgraded versions, of course!
  • Finally, I think the best piece of circumstantial evidence is to consider this question: what was the Federation trying to do with/within the Bottle Ship? The answer, initially, was to recreate Mother Brain under Federation control and without the insanity or baggage of the original and use that Mother Brain to create a bioweapons program made of the same Zebesian inhabitants that her terrestrial counterpart organized. For this to work, they needed the best, strongest, and healthiest versions of every species they brought on board. I think that their plan only really makes sense if they were going to replicate the aspects of Zebes that made their potential weapons stronger.
So, that's my take. Without an in-game statement, a blurb in a strategy guide, or Q&A word of god deal, I think it makes sense to err on the side of what makes the most sense based on what we see and what we don't see. What we see areZebesian creatures behaving normally, Samus behaving normally, and environments being replicated as accurately as Federation tech allows. We don't see Samus being extra careful not to jump into the ceiling, we don't see a bunch of disoriented creatures aimlessly wandering/flying around, and we don't see any evidence that the Federation Marines are struggling any more or less than those Samus escorted on other super-heavy worlds like those in Prime 3. If this doesn't meet the standard of proof required, I guess I understand, but to me, it's pretty clear Samus is crazy strong and Vorash is crazy heavy.
 
Okay, I personally think the Animus feat seems to legit be Low 2-C as the Past and the Future are both being destroyed by the looks of it.

And I do think the cast should have a lifting strength upgrade to Class M scaling from Kraid either way. I'm neutral on Bottleship actually replicating Zebes gravity, but I'm going to point out that game mechanics don't always showcase video game characters being any where near as acrobatic is they're canonically meant to be regardless of gravity. But the idea that Bottleship's sectors are meant to imitate evironmental effects of Zebes are indeed an indicator, and the species such as Vorash having some possible Zebesian DNA should indicate them at least being capable of carrying 960x their own weight regularly. And even fodder Zebesians should be Class K via sheer size and gravity combination.

Though, fodder marines having being able to survive in certain places is that part that raises skeptism about Bottleship chambers being 900 G's. But whether or not it does have that many G's, I think the creatures having Zebesian DNA is still more than enough evidence for those creatures still having lifting strength + gravity resistance capabilities.
 
Sweet. Thank you very much everyone, especially @DarkDragonMedeus and @Antvasima for weighing in!

EDIT: I assume one of the staff is going to change Samus's the Animus's profiles, correct? That's not something I'm going to be doing? If it would be helpful, I can provide links to the scans I provided without the highlighted sections. Just lmk.
 
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I'd wait for him, but if he doesn't respond within the next few days, I think it's fine to apply the changes.
 
Kind of related, but what is the process for becoming a knowledgeable person/expert on a verse? I won't claim to know more than @SomebodyData or anything, but I do have a pretty solid understanding of Metroid.
 
Just be knowledgeable on the verse. That’s kind of all you need to do, there’s no process or check list to get through.
 
I'm neutral on the Low 2-C. I would prefer a bit more evidence, since nothing really screams the timeline will be destroyed than can't really be handwaved as hyperbole.

I'm alright if the Bottle Shio's gravity gets treated the same as Zebes, given the evidence. Not to mention, the fact that Nightmare, who controls gravity, is stationed there.
 
Sorry I'm late to respond.

In regards to the Animus, I don't think there's anything blatantly stating that the Animus effects multiple universes. Based purely on what's stated in the manga the Animus can alter/destroy the past and future of it's particular universe so I'm fine with it being labeled as Low 2-C. However, Samus didn't ascend to a higher plane of existence after using the Animus. In an interview with the mangaka (author/illustrator) of Samus & Joey Idzuki Kouji, Samus & Joey takes place between Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion. Idzuki Kouji also stated that after the events of Samus & Joey, Samus continued to be a bounty hunter. The interview can be found here: https://shinesparkers.net/interviews/idzuki-kouji/.

Also, if anyone wants to read Samus & Joey themselves you can find it here: https://www.metroid-database.com/old_site/manga/listing.php.

As for Samus throwing around the Vorash I'm fine with the lowball being at Class M. Not sure on the Bottle Ship being at 960 G however. Regular humans work there and don't appear to have gravity manipulation equipment as part of their uniform. Nightmare can manipulate gravity, and can even limit that gravity alteration to certain rooms, so if the increased gravity is for certain rooms I could understand that. However, Samus enters rooms that have increased gravity and Samus struggled to move without the Gravity Suit. Other creatures in the area, such as Zoomers and Baristutes, were fine. Besides, I don't think most planets have 960 G gravity, so wouldn't having creatures adapted to ultra high gravity worlds be a hindrance when they go to different places with drastically different gravity? Then again, that could have been one of the reasons the creatures were given cybernetics enhancements. That's purely conjecture on my part though.

There could be an argument for Samus being higher than Class M since she can knock Ridley off the ground using just the power of her right arm, and it looks like she didn't put her all into it:

 
@TheAccursedHunter01 I don't think it was ever proposed that Animus destroyed multiple universes, just one timeline. And Samus does lose her Animus powers after that incident yes, but she still has it during that one incident hence why it's exclusive to one key.

Nightmare's gravity manipulation is possibly multitudes superior to Zebes gravity; like possibly several thousand G's if we're going to be real given the conparisons. Not every planet for sure; but those 5 planets in Metroid Prime due still have masses several times greater than Earth's. But we know Zebes has 960 G's and Tallon IV has 770 G's. But I still think it's believable for some rooms to replicate or even surpass Zebes gravity via influence from Nightmare.

That feat might looks good; Ridley is still comparable if not superior to Kraid who also has a solid Class M calculation.
 
LordNidhoggr said:
Basically, what I'm asking is: do the claims of the Animus being able to remake the universe based on the user's desires qualify as destroying/creating a 4th-dimensional universe, aka a universe and the timeline(s) that are bound to it?
Click to expand...
@DarkDragonMedeus Reading "aka a universe and the timeline(s) that are bound to it?" made me think multiple universes/multiverse.

Now that I think about time travel hasn't been brought up in Metroid yet despite all the stuff Samus has dealt with already. I find that a bit odd.
 
SomebodyData said:
I'm neutral on the Low 2-C. I would prefer a bit more evidence, since nothing really screams the timeline will be destroyed than can't really be handwaved as hyperbole.

I'm alright if the Bottle Shio's gravity gets treated the same as Zebes, given the evidence. Not to mention, the fact that Nightmare, who controls gravity, is stationed there.
Click to expand...
I think the evidence is very strong. The Animus says that it has the power to reshape the universe based on the will of the user, whether that be to restore the universe to a state it had been previously or make the universe into something new based on the individual's desires, with one choice overwriting whatever is currently extant. We then see this exact power in action when Greed's vision crumbles due to his lack of will and the impossibility of building anything lasting on a foundation of total selfishness, with the space-time equivalent being a Big Crunch-sized black hole/series of black holes that will destroy the universe matter, energy, space, and time. Then Samus gets to make her choice, choosing to preserve the current universe which immediately overrides the complete annihilation brought on by her immediate predecessor, with cost of this choice being that Samus can't shape the future to her own whims (something she doesn't want) or bring back her family/families. She was able to restore what Greed destroyed and preserve the universe as it was to give it and everyone in it the chance to determine their own future.

I think that's exactly what it says on the tin, and fits the Low 2-C definition of being able to create or destroy a 4-dimensional universe. And given it's shown pretty explicitly with Greed's fate, and hinted very strongly with the art of Samus holding/cradling the galaxy post-Animus, the most recent user of the Animus seems to ascend to some kind of higher plane of existence as a part of the process of imposing their will on the universe, kind of a more powerful version of the Catalyst in Mass Effect 3, actually.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
@TheAccursedHunter01 I don't think it was ever proposed that Animus destroyed multiple universes, just one timeline. And Samus does lose her Animus powers after that incident yes, but she still has it during that one incident hence why it's exclusive to one key.

Nightmare's gravity manipulation is possibly multitudes superior to Zebes gravity; like possibly several thousand G's if we're going to be real given the conparisons. Not every planet for sure; but those 5 planets in Metroid Prime due still have masses several times greater than Earth's. But we know Zebes has 960 G's and Tallon IV has 770 G's. But I still think it's believable for some rooms to replicate or even surpass Zebes gravity via influence from Nightmare.

That feat might looks good; Ridley is still comparable if not superior to Kraid who also has a solid Class M calculation.
Click to expand...
First of all: the idea of using Nightmare as the source/mechanism for sustaining the super-high gravity of the Zebes biomes on the Bottle Ship is just an awesome idea that honestly improves his appearance in the game a lot, making it seem purposeful instead of "hey, you like this guy, right? Well, fight him here! Again! For no reason!" So bravo for introducing me to that idea, I love it! Second, scaling Nightmare's gravity effects would be something; I mean, in OM he can basically create gravity wells/black holes strong enough to pull in energy blasts made of high energy plasma and photons into them from beyond their event horizon, and that are physically a bit bigger than Samus which would put them easily in the stellar mass range. And even before activating her Gravity Suit (which fully negates adverse gravitational effects, which is even stronger and haxxier than I remember it being), she's still able to jump into the air(said jump, roughly her own height, causes the room/screen to shake whenever she lands).

If anything, Class M is a bit conservative for her physical limits. And with Ridley, Kraid, Crocomire, and Mecha-Mother Brain all being very substantial and dense and either Zebesian natives or built to survive Zebesian conditions, I don't think there should be any problem scaling the verse around a Class-M baseline for the major players. Remember: even the fodder characters in this universe have feats like being able to survive multiple attacks by Phazon-powered weapons and being attacked by Ridley and flung off a high platform.
 
TheAccursedHunter01 said:
@DarkDragonMedeus Reading "aka a universe and the timeline(s) that are bound to it?" made me think multiple universes/multiverse.

Now that I think about time travel hasn't been brought up in Metroid yet despite all the stuff Samus has dealt with already. I find that a bit odd.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I've noticed that myself. Time travel seems to be one of the few big sci-fi genres Metroid hasn't touched yet, and I'm kind of hoping they explore it as a possibility in a game someday. It doesn't need to be a huge universe-spanning thing; very cool things can be done playing with a local space-time, especially if it gave us the chance to get time-based power-ups. Like a bomb that freezes time in its explosion radius, or Grappling Beam that "fast forwards" damage that enemies are taking. You could get really creative and do stuff like freeze time, shoot a missile at an enemy that would freeze in time, rewind a few seconds, fire that same missile at the enemy (so you're shooting the enemy with two missiles, two copies of the same missile), and then hit him with the fast forward effect so that it's like those missiles hit multiple times/did damage over time all at once/increased their effectiveness in some way. I think the idea has a lot of cool game potential. And feat potential ;P
 
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