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Metroid could use something like the Timeshift Stones in the Lanayru Desert in Skyward Sword. However, anything beyond that could get dangerous. Time travel plots are VERY easy to mess up.
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Samus Aran Revisions
- Thread starter LordNidhoggr
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This is kind of derailment. But we do have a Metroid general discussion thread if you want to talk about these stuff.
But I think it's pretty much agreed Class M lifting strength is believable. SD said he's neutral on Low 2-C, but everyone else seems agree with it outright. Though, some calc group members would still need to evaluate the blogs first.
But I think it's pretty much agreed Class M lifting strength is believable. SD said he's neutral on Low 2-C, but everyone else seems agree with it outright. Though, some calc group members would still need to evaluate the blogs first.
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Edit: So, not sure how I missed this, but that does pretty definitively answer the question of whether or not Samus ascends to a higher state of being. However, she still acts as the catalyst for the Animus and has to bear the brunt of its power in order to cause that change, meaning that she's still capable of 2-C feats given the right energy source. The evidence for this is that Greed went through the same thing, but wasn't up to the task and utterly destroyed by it. So, if it were me, I'd say the Animus is Low 2-C, maybe 2-C and Samus with the Animus or equivalent source of power (as the Animus is basically just a semi-sentient power source, to begin with) is Low 2-C or High 3-A to Low 2-C.
I think saying the whole Bottle Ship is 960G is probably incorrect, it's just the Zebes biomes. That's not outlandish in the slightest, either. For a much more grounded version of the same idea, check out "2001: A Space Odyssey": in that film the ship sent to Jupiter is mostly 0G, but has a spinning ring that creates simulated gravity for one section of the ship. The Metroid universe is much, much more advanced than 2001's, so creating a system that only affects certain, specific parts of a giant space station is hardly a leap in logic. Nightmare was probably the system set up to do just that, and then MB went crazy and turned it into a weapon (kind of like Mother Brain herself did between Zero Mission and Super). Also, as far as I'm aware, the only rooms with intense gravity that affected Samus were from effects caused directly or indirectly by Nightmare. Besides, though Other M is helpful for showing some feats, it makes others more confusing, like Samus activating her Gravity Suit in order to counter the effects of the room she was in being exposed to vacuum after it exploded. She's being sucked out into0G and turning on the Gravity Suit drops her like a rock back onto the floor. Its description does say it negates the effects of gravity, but given it lets her jump around like normal during Nightmare's ultra-heavy gravity mode and also lets her walk around an environment in 0G without being blown out or floating away...it seems to just do whatever Samus wants it to, or make the suit behave as if the gravity were under perfectly normal conditions.
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Been a couple days since SomebodyData replied, but I think we agreed on Animus being Low 2-C, Samus only being Low 2-C via White Hole manipulation, and the Class M lifting strength scaling. Has any calc group member commented on the blog yet? But I think the Universal stuff can go ahead and be applied.
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No one has checked the blog, as far as I know. I fixed it up, but let me know if I need to make additional changes.
Also, I'm not sure labeling Samus's 2-C feat as "White Hole Manipulation" is really accurate, since it does take the form of a white hole, but only to counteract the black holes that'd already been created. I don't think she could manipulate extant white holes, which is probably distinct enough to make a note of for battles. I'd say 2-C with Animus or "fate of the universe powers." However, I won't bring it up again if you/staff decide to keep it as white hole manip.
Also, I'm not sure labeling Samus's 2-C feat as "White Hole Manipulation" is really accurate, since it does take the form of a white hole, but only to counteract the black holes that'd already been created. I don't think she could manipulate extant white holes, which is probably distinct enough to make a note of for battles. I'd say 2-C with Animus or "fate of the universe powers." However, I won't bring it up again if you/staff decide to keep it as white hole manip.
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Metroid Prime 4 did relate to time travel at one point, but we don't know if its still a thing in the current iteration.
Lord
Yes, Animus' power to recreate/destroy the universe is directly linked to his black hole / white hole creation (pg 21), the latter being the reason why Samus was able to reset the damage caused by Greed (pg 23). Greed never managed to completely destroy the universe- as far as we're aware, Greed hadn't even managed to destroy some of the solar systems in the galaxy before Samus intervened.
The Big Crunch part of your statement is purely your assumption, though. Samus cradling the galaxy was before obtaining the power of Animus and purely discussing the burden the Chozo placed upon her (pg 14).
Looking through the manga again for this response, I think I've gone from neutral to against Low 2-C tbh.
DDM
I think you're reading way too into it. Especially since we actively see the future just a few pages later (pg 24).
Lord
Yes, Animus' power to recreate/destroy the universe is directly linked to his black hole / white hole creation (pg 21), the latter being the reason why Samus was able to reset the damage caused by Greed (pg 23). Greed never managed to completely destroy the universe- as far as we're aware, Greed hadn't even managed to destroy some of the solar systems in the galaxy before Samus intervened.
The Big Crunch part of your statement is purely your assumption, though. Samus cradling the galaxy was before obtaining the power of Animus and purely discussing the burden the Chozo placed upon her (pg 14).
Looking through the manga again for this response, I think I've gone from neutral to against Low 2-C tbh.
DDM
I think you're reading way too into it. Especially since we actively see the future just a few pages later (pg 24).
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The scan mentions destroying the past and the future, and "We do see the future" is due to Samus saving the Future before it gets destroyed. So not sure how that rebutes it. Or at least, can you explain why and show the scans?
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You provided the scan? The future and past would be destroyed (if taken literally like you guys are doing) had Samus chosen the present (which she did).
Ergo, the future doesn't exist (which is directly contradicted by the next couple of pages).
Ergo, the future doesn't exist (which is directly contradicted by the next couple of pages).
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To be fair, it was meant to be a trick question as Samus figures it out. If you say future, he'll grant you the power to end time which consumed Greed. And Samus said the past would do the same thing; give the power of the past before the universe was even born. Thus technically reverting the universe back to how it was before it was born is technically still destroying it. Which is why Samus chose the present, because she's keeping the Universe the way it is; where it's already large, and expansive. Which is why he gave Samus the power to stabilize the Universe.
That's the way I see it actually.
That's the way I see it actually.
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If you want to take it that way, fine, but you then get rid of the Low 2-C proof in the first place.
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I was neutral on Low 2-C overall, but I pretty much agree with it being 3-A at bare minimum. But Animus would be implied to be effecting space-time if he's literally reversing or accelerating that much. Not saying it's AP, but it still looks like Universe wide time manipulation and thus range would be on that level.
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I think this is more a problem of how I said things, not the feats. So let me clarify and further explain what I meant:
- The black hole/white creation: Yes, the Animus creates a black hole/s to destroy the universe and creates a "white hole" as a cosmic undo button shortly afterward, but there isn't good evidence that those are the only mechanisms through which it can change the universe. When the Animus is speaking to Samus about its power being "white and black" taking that to mean it can only create black and white holes is a very limited, literal reading; I think it's much more likely that white is a general protective and creative energy/force, while black is more destructive and violent. Neither is inherently good or evil, they're just different ways to alter the universe according to the user's desire. Even if read that way, though, the fact that they can still destroy or create an entire universe and timelines within that universe puts them at 2-C.
- Following from the above: Greed's ambition and his subsequent lack of strength and willpower led to his annihilation and a future that matched: complete destruction. Because he was consumed by the power/energy of the Animus, nothing would have been able to follow that once everything had been destroyed (had Samus not acted) because there was no longer any mind to rebuild the universe according to its will. That's also why Samus's choice didn't do anything that spectacular: she just wanted to undo the damage Greed did and no more. So she destroyed his (non-)future in order to re-establish and preserve the future that Greed had attempted to destroy (and, notably, would have succeeded in doing without Samus's intervention)
- Greed didn't destroy much for two reasons: the Animus's poweroverwhelmed him almost immediately and Samus used the Animus to stop andundo Greed's effortsvery shortly thereafter. This is not good evidence for downgrading the Animus or Samusw/Animus-what it is evidence of is Samus's greater strength, willpower, and superior upper-level power limits than Greed that allowed her to save the universe and survive the energy surge.
- When I said "big crunch" I only meant it as a description of the entire universe collapsing into a black hole. That's essentially what the "big crunch" theory was-that the universe would collapse in on itself due to gravitational forces-so I used it as shorthand for what was happening due to Greed's actions.
- When talking about destroying the future or past, in most cases it might be more accurate to say "changed." Had Greed not been consumed, he would have destroyed the current future of the Metroid universe by creating/altering the universe on a fundamental level so that the conditions that created the present (and therefore future) of the universe would no longer exist. The Animus appears to be capable of rewriting the universe independent of time, too, with its offer to choose to remake/return to the past. The thing to keep in mind is that every action the Animus takes does destroy a timeline; Greed's choice destroys the future, Samus's choice destroys that future and restores the original timeline. The past is a bit trickier to explain, but I think that it's explainable in a similar way: Greed's malfunction/failure would have destroyed the entire Metroid universe, and thus there would be no future or past because it was completely destroyed by a black hole, where space and time don't exist in the same way they do in the normal universe. Samus's actions would thus also overwrite this and would be re-creating/restoring the original timeline in order for the present to preserved per Samus's desires.
- You are absolutely right about the Samus cradling the galaxy. That image is also used as the credits page for the Metroid Database-hosted manga, which is why I got confused. I think I already acknowledged that I was wrong about Samus ascending to a higher plane of existence in a previous post, but as I also said in that post, I don't think that diminishes the power of her feet. The fact that she was able to withstand the Animus's power, affect the universe on both a physical and temporal level, and impose her will to accomplish her goal is very impressive, with the proof being Greed's utter failure to do the same despite being very formidable himself.
EDIT: Just in case, here's the blog post @Antvasima
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Did I reformat it correctly? Or are there still some changes I need to make or information I need to add?
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Unless it is actually stated, it doesn't make sense to assume he has more abilities than he stated himself. Even if we're generous, it doesn't say it'd destroy the timeline.
Yeah, I agree, but again, that falls under what I said above.
I'm not downgrading Animus or anything, just pointing out by feats they're around tier 4 and by statements around tier 3. So while we don't know the full extent of their powers- we shouldn't be assuming anything extensively higher.
Fair on the Big Crunch part.
Like I said, Greed did not destroy the future- at best he destroyed a few systems in the universe, and by extension, Samus' feat is tier 4 as well. By statements they would be tier 3, but what stops them from tier 2 is that it would have been immediate, rather gradual as we saw.
Prime 4 having time-travel was back in the NX days- here is the article if you want.
Yeah, I agree, but again, that falls under what I said above.
I'm not downgrading Animus or anything, just pointing out by feats they're around tier 4 and by statements around tier 3. So while we don't know the full extent of their powers- we shouldn't be assuming anything extensively higher.
Fair on the Big Crunch part.
Like I said, Greed did not destroy the future- at best he destroyed a few systems in the universe, and by extension, Samus' feat is tier 4 as well. By statements they would be tier 3, but what stops them from tier 2 is that it would have been immediate, rather gradual as we saw.
Prime 4 having time-travel was back in the NX days- here is the article if you want.
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Just a point number 5, it wasn't Greed that destroyed the Future, it was Greed destroying himself. It's Animus who's actively about to devourer the universe in a Black Hole. Though, I agree that regardless Animus and this Samus's White Hole would be 3-A at least just be the nature that the Black Hole was going to engulf the entire universe via expanding.
Side note, DMUA accepted the lifting strength blog.
Side note, DMUA accepted the lifting strength blog.
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Awesome! Glad to hear it. And thanks for fixing that formatting problem, I'll make sure to have everything correct next time.
Do you think we have enough data/consensus to label Samus+Animus Low-2C, or should I finish the rebuttal I started working on to the most recent points? I know this has been dragging out for a while, if people would like to move on, I would ask that I can make a closing argument (which will be very heavily based on scans, I've gone through and found as much direct material as I can find). But if the result is already 2-C Samus or you feel that nothing I say/show will change anything, I'll accept that decision.
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SD still only seems to accept 3-A for White Hole Samus and Animus. But the Class M lifting strength scaling is fine.
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Well, once more into the breach. Here's another scan filled argument for 2-C Samus. Feedback welcome.
1. "It wasn't Greed that destroyed the future." I think it (mostly) was. He was using the Animus's power up until he was completely consumed, at which point the destruction he started was irreversible save intervention by an equally-powerful source.
2. "Greed only destroyed a few systems in the universe." According to statements made, the destruction was already spreading to other galaxies, where it was easily visible/detectable (must have been, to be observed at a glance) to Samus's allies outside the Animus ruins. Given that this level of destruction spread in less time than it took Samus to talk to Joey about why she had to go to the Animus alone, the universe was clearly in massive, imminent danger.
3. "Greed did not destroy [threaten] the future." This is probably the biggest point and one that's most interesting, and difficult, to talk about. The Animus explicitly says it has the power to destroy the future and the past, and Samus, who has been given a deep knowledge of the Animus and how it works in preparation for this moment, confirms that it can do so when the one who reaches makes the choice between the two when offered. Greed chooses the future and Samus says that he made the "wrong" choice, which is very interesting. As I've said before, he made the wrong choice because he's destroying the past and trying to build a future with no foundation, both on a personal level and a temporal one (think of it as trying to write a book of infinite complexity without coming up with any background material on how the world of the book developed before your story starts). He also made the wrong choice because he believed that the power of the gods was destruction, the black holes, and not in creation or preservation and while destruction is a necessary step in the creative process, it isn't the end of the process. Ultimately, Greed was so consumed in his power fantasy that he was consumed by a power he could never really control. But even without control, he would have destroyed the universe and ended the timeline from that point forward-possibly completely destroying the timeline of the universe by condensing all of the universe's space-time into a single singularity where nothing could escape or change, even the Animus.
4. I think the above argument is within reason because of how powerful the "black holes" are portrayed as being. I use quotation marks because they are treated differently than other black holes/singularities are within the series. For example, when the Space Pirates invaded Zebes, the only way they were able to breach the nigh-indestructible planetary shield was by using a micro black hole as a weapon, with "micro" being very relative given the size of the accretion area, especially as it would have to be limited and directed by the Space Pirates so as not to consume their ship. So we know that black holes, real and artificial, are well-known to the universe and the space pirates, and are used as energy sources and weapons. They are not exotic or wondrous. So, When Greed gains the power of the Animus and starts making black holes, it's very telling that exclaims that these black holes are "the powers of the gods." What he's using to destroy everything and remake the future in his image are no ordinary black holes: they are a destructive force of unlimited, even divine power with the sole purpose of destroying everything that is so that it can be replaced with something else-or nothing if the will of the one using them is lacking. Treating them as though they are the same objects as those created by collapsing stars is incorrect; they are far beyond that.
So, that's my argument with as many scans as I can reasonably use to solidify my points. I think that dismissing the 2-C aspects of the feat as hyperbole would be a mistake given the evidence in the manga. Multiple characters viewing the events from multiple angles all reiterate that the damage being caused is willful, widespread, and rapidly expanding. All of them explicitly say that the universe is in imminent danger of a complete cessation of existence, with both Samus and the Animus confirming that this extends beyond the physical universe to time itself. Greed's power-mad ravings as he sets the universe to oblivion also back this up: he is utterly convinced of his power and ability to completely alter the future to his own design; and like other examples, he explicitly affirms the temporal extent of the powers he is using, not just destroying or changing the physical universe.
I would also like to point out that there is no reason for the Animus to lie or hyperbolize; it isn't a being of complex sentience or goals that require such manipulation, it's a power source with a personality. All it really exists to do is interact with those that find it to create the interface that best suits their desires and goals to accomplish with the power the Animus provides. It's a simple, straightforward AI/VI program, and saying that it's exaggerating the power it contains doesn't make any sense in either the context of the events we see or what we know about it as a character/being.
Given all of these factors, I would say that the Animus is between Low 2-C and 2-C, and Samus is Low 2-C. The Animus uses her will to catalyze the white holes, and Samus is the conduit for the Animus'spowerjust like Greed was, making her a 2-C/Low 2-C tier during this feat. Greed might actually be low 2-C or 3-A too, depending on the criteria for starting this kind of destruction but being unable to see it to completion. Anyway, let me know what you think.
1. "It wasn't Greed that destroyed the future." I think it (mostly) was. He was using the Animus's power up until he was completely consumed, at which point the destruction he started was irreversible save intervention by an equally-powerful source.
2. "Greed only destroyed a few systems in the universe." According to statements made, the destruction was already spreading to other galaxies, where it was easily visible/detectable (must have been, to be observed at a glance) to Samus's allies outside the Animus ruins. Given that this level of destruction spread in less time than it took Samus to talk to Joey about why she had to go to the Animus alone, the universe was clearly in massive, imminent danger.
3. "Greed did not destroy [threaten] the future." This is probably the biggest point and one that's most interesting, and difficult, to talk about. The Animus explicitly says it has the power to destroy the future and the past, and Samus, who has been given a deep knowledge of the Animus and how it works in preparation for this moment, confirms that it can do so when the one who reaches makes the choice between the two when offered. Greed chooses the future and Samus says that he made the "wrong" choice, which is very interesting. As I've said before, he made the wrong choice because he's destroying the past and trying to build a future with no foundation, both on a personal level and a temporal one (think of it as trying to write a book of infinite complexity without coming up with any background material on how the world of the book developed before your story starts). He also made the wrong choice because he believed that the power of the gods was destruction, the black holes, and not in creation or preservation and while destruction is a necessary step in the creative process, it isn't the end of the process. Ultimately, Greed was so consumed in his power fantasy that he was consumed by a power he could never really control. But even without control, he would have destroyed the universe and ended the timeline from that point forward-possibly completely destroying the timeline of the universe by condensing all of the universe's space-time into a single singularity where nothing could escape or change, even the Animus.
4. I think the above argument is within reason because of how powerful the "black holes" are portrayed as being. I use quotation marks because they are treated differently than other black holes/singularities are within the series. For example, when the Space Pirates invaded Zebes, the only way they were able to breach the nigh-indestructible planetary shield was by using a micro black hole as a weapon, with "micro" being very relative given the size of the accretion area, especially as it would have to be limited and directed by the Space Pirates so as not to consume their ship. So we know that black holes, real and artificial, are well-known to the universe and the space pirates, and are used as energy sources and weapons. They are not exotic or wondrous. So, When Greed gains the power of the Animus and starts making black holes, it's very telling that exclaims that these black holes are "the powers of the gods." What he's using to destroy everything and remake the future in his image are no ordinary black holes: they are a destructive force of unlimited, even divine power with the sole purpose of destroying everything that is so that it can be replaced with something else-or nothing if the will of the one using them is lacking. Treating them as though they are the same objects as those created by collapsing stars is incorrect; they are far beyond that.
So, that's my argument with as many scans as I can reasonably use to solidify my points. I think that dismissing the 2-C aspects of the feat as hyperbole would be a mistake given the evidence in the manga. Multiple characters viewing the events from multiple angles all reiterate that the damage being caused is willful, widespread, and rapidly expanding. All of them explicitly say that the universe is in imminent danger of a complete cessation of existence, with both Samus and the Animus confirming that this extends beyond the physical universe to time itself. Greed's power-mad ravings as he sets the universe to oblivion also back this up: he is utterly convinced of his power and ability to completely alter the future to his own design; and like other examples, he explicitly affirms the temporal extent of the powers he is using, not just destroying or changing the physical universe.
I would also like to point out that there is no reason for the Animus to lie or hyperbolize; it isn't a being of complex sentience or goals that require such manipulation, it's a power source with a personality. All it really exists to do is interact with those that find it to create the interface that best suits their desires and goals to accomplish with the power the Animus provides. It's a simple, straightforward AI/VI program, and saying that it's exaggerating the power it contains doesn't make any sense in either the context of the events we see or what we know about it as a character/being.
Given all of these factors, I would say that the Animus is between Low 2-C and 2-C, and Samus is Low 2-C. The Animus uses her will to catalyze the white holes, and Samus is the conduit for the Animus'spowerjust like Greed was, making her a 2-C/Low 2-C tier during this feat. Greed might actually be low 2-C or 3-A too, depending on the criteria for starting this kind of destruction but being unable to see it to completion. Anyway, let me know what you think.
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- None of that shows him destroying the future- all you've presented is the destruction he's caused at the present.
- That's missing an important bit of context- Greed's black hole was actually black holes. (Page 2)
- Alone, the first page you linked works really well. But the third page- the one that states Samus would destroy both past & future- with neither actually occurring, is the issue here.
- That has nothing to do with the black holes being tier 2.
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Ok, so I think the issue here is less about what's shown and more about what isn't, correct? You don't see any explicit evidence of any time being destroyed, and the fact that there's a "future" segment seems to contradict the whole idea.
Greed is actively destroying the future, according to low 2-C standards, in that he is collapsing the universe into ever-expanding black holes that will, according to multiple sources, ultimately obliterate the entire universe. This actively destroys a timeline, in this case the future, because black holes warp space-time to the extent that time no longer exists within a singularity. After all, time is relative to speed, and in an infinitely small point of infinite mass, there can be no speed, nor light, nor relativity. By the definition of the wiki, a universe beyond the mere three dimensions has been destroyed at that point (in a literal point).
Samus, by taking an action to stop this outcome from occurring, destroys this future. I will give you that the "destroying the past" aspect is a bit muddier, but given that the Animus presents itself as a primarily destructive force, warning Samus that her choice will be destructive no matter what she chooses, "destroying the past" means removing it as a variable and making it unchangeable. Whether or not that fits the definition of low 2-C, I'm not sure, but the ability to stop and (apparently) reverse the effects of Greed's efforts, without being consumed by the power source used to do so, should still qualify as low 2-C. Both of their actions irrevocably changed the timeline of the universe: one (imminently) destroying it, the other creating one.
And to your point about the future being shown at the end, well, that's just the present at a later time, isn't it? Exactly what Samus asked for.
(Just for my own sake, super quick: 1. You destroy the future in the present. This is destroying the future as a concept, not a period of time. 2. I didn't mean to leave that context out, but it changes nothing. The point was that Greed's efforts were an imminent universal threat and that other galaxies were already being destroyed within a very short period after gaining access to the Animus. 3. I don't see how. We see her successfully destroy Greed's future and then we see the success of her efforts. Saying it doesn't count because we don't see the past when that's exactly what Samus chose to do is kind of a flawed argument, don't you think? 4. It helps establish scale and the power of what's involved. Using Superman vs The Elite as an example, there's a moment in the final battle where one of the Elite creates a huge energy attack to hit Superman with, which he later claims was "like 15 suns exploding in his face." Well, 15 suns exploding should have dusted the solar system...but it's his superpower so he's assumed to be able to limit the collateral damage. That's kind of the same idea here: these black holes are far more powerful and dangerous than the naturally occurring stellar objects, which can already warp space-time to such a degree that we currently lack the understanding of what actually happens within the event horizon. So, when we're told that these are going to destroy the universe and specifically destroy the future, it lends credence to those statements that these are special.)
So, again, I personally see that as a tier 2 feat. A low tier2, but tier two. Maybe an "At least 3-A." But if I am misunderstanding the tier list's use of space-time or something, that's completely reasonable. And I don't want to seem unreasonable or stuck on this. It makes sense to me, but if other people look at all this and decide it doesn't add up, that's fine. I've argued my side and I don't know that I could really add more to it unless there's a question about something.
Greed is actively destroying the future, according to low 2-C standards, in that he is collapsing the universe into ever-expanding black holes that will, according to multiple sources, ultimately obliterate the entire universe. This actively destroys a timeline, in this case the future, because black holes warp space-time to the extent that time no longer exists within a singularity. After all, time is relative to speed, and in an infinitely small point of infinite mass, there can be no speed, nor light, nor relativity. By the definition of the wiki, a universe beyond the mere three dimensions has been destroyed at that point (in a literal point).
Samus, by taking an action to stop this outcome from occurring, destroys this future. I will give you that the "destroying the past" aspect is a bit muddier, but given that the Animus presents itself as a primarily destructive force, warning Samus that her choice will be destructive no matter what she chooses, "destroying the past" means removing it as a variable and making it unchangeable. Whether or not that fits the definition of low 2-C, I'm not sure, but the ability to stop and (apparently) reverse the effects of Greed's efforts, without being consumed by the power source used to do so, should still qualify as low 2-C. Both of their actions irrevocably changed the timeline of the universe: one (imminently) destroying it, the other creating one.
And to your point about the future being shown at the end, well, that's just the present at a later time, isn't it? Exactly what Samus asked for.
(Just for my own sake, super quick: 1. You destroy the future in the present. This is destroying the future as a concept, not a period of time. 2. I didn't mean to leave that context out, but it changes nothing. The point was that Greed's efforts were an imminent universal threat and that other galaxies were already being destroyed within a very short period after gaining access to the Animus. 3. I don't see how. We see her successfully destroy Greed's future and then we see the success of her efforts. Saying it doesn't count because we don't see the past when that's exactly what Samus chose to do is kind of a flawed argument, don't you think? 4. It helps establish scale and the power of what's involved. Using Superman vs The Elite as an example, there's a moment in the final battle where one of the Elite creates a huge energy attack to hit Superman with, which he later claims was "like 15 suns exploding in his face." Well, 15 suns exploding should have dusted the solar system...but it's his superpower so he's assumed to be able to limit the collateral damage. That's kind of the same idea here: these black holes are far more powerful and dangerous than the naturally occurring stellar objects, which can already warp space-time to such a degree that we currently lack the understanding of what actually happens within the event horizon. So, when we're told that these are going to destroy the universe and specifically destroy the future, it lends credence to those statements that these are special.)
So, again, I personally see that as a tier 2 feat. A low tier2, but tier two. Maybe an "At least 3-A." But if I am misunderstanding the tier list's use of space-time or something, that's completely reasonable. And I don't want to seem unreasonable or stuck on this. It makes sense to me, but if other people look at all this and decide it doesn't add up, that's fine. I've argued my side and I don't know that I could really add more to it unless there's a question about something.
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Yeah, causing a "Dimensiona collapse of a universe" as opposed to simply blowing it up is generally considered Low 2-C but the WIP progress universe standard. Same with "Reducing the Universe to a Void". Sera had plans to give more elaborate details on that. Although, I do agree with SD that simply creating black holes isn't Tier 2 in itself. And I also disagree with Low Multiversal as mentioned above.
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Well, I was kind of trying to point out that these aren't exactly normal black holes. Normal black holes, even if they popped up in every solar system in the universe would not destroy that universe. They wouldn't ever get big enough or close enough together to merge/collide into a single black hole that would, for all intents and purposes, be primed for anew big bang. I would argue that, though they act like black holes, what's happening is more of a cosmic delete button, something spreading across the universe and destroying it beyond its most foundational elements, down to its dimensions and temporal bindings. If left unchecked, it's made very clear there won't be anything of the universe left; no void, no black holes, no future. Current astrophysics tells us that our universe is going to spend most of its life as an essentially empty void with only black holes slowly radiating away until they explode until all that's left is background radiation that loses all of its energy as the universe expands until there is literally no energy left within it. That is not what's happening here, and the death of the Metroid universe is arriving rapidly (maybe not instant, but in cosmic time it might as well be), and unnaturally.
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Well, seeing as Medeus appears to be mostly deferring to SomebodyData and he appears to be unmoving on the point, I would guess that's the end of that unless the people who weighed in earlier wanted to again. I still personally see this as a clear Low 2-C feat at minimum, given that the Metroid universe's size is unknown but at minimum comparable to ours, contains multiple dimensions including several higher dimensions (the Chozo ascended to a higher dimension and Gorea is heavily implied to be some kind of higher dimensional being as well), and the Animus is capable of total universal annihilation and is stated by multiple sources, including the same kind of reliable prophetic information that Samus or the Chozo have had before, to able to destroy the universe's timeline/temporal continuity as well. I will grant that there isn't a specific scene that shows a physical aspect or representation of time being destroyed, but would argue that all of the major parties involved took it for a known quantity and treated it with absolute seriousness; it doesn't seem like something that should be handwaved as hyperbole.
Anyway, I've got to get some sleep. I have no idea what kind of time zones people are from, but it seems like SomebodyData posts mostly when it's night for me, so maybe I'll wake up to a final decision. I don't think there's any more points I can make, and endlessly re-phrasing the same ones (which I feel I've done a bit of already) doesn't help anyone. LMK.
Anyway, I've got to get some sleep. I have no idea what kind of time zones people are from, but it seems like SomebodyData posts mostly when it's night for me, so maybe I'll wake up to a final decision. I don't think there's any more points I can make, and endlessly re-phrasing the same ones (which I feel I've done a bit of already) doesn't help anyone. LMK.
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Yeah, I personally agree "Dimensional collapse of the Universe" is often more associated with Low 2-C than it is 3-A as mentioned above. But I'd still like to wait for SomebodyData to respond.
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Nowhere is it stated that the black holes would also destroy all the dimensions in Metroid and I'm not sure why we would assume they exist within the universe regardless- especially since the Tallon Chozos' description fits existing outside the timeline altogether.
Not to mention, that would just be an unqualifiable feat, not Low 2-C.
Not to mention, that would just be an unqualifiable feat, not Low 2-C.
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I do agree the various "Alternate dimensions" or "Pocket realities" shouldn't be assumed to be alternate universes. And existing outside the of time is more like a combination of Spatial Intangibility combined with good resistance to space-time manipulation. Though, the Infinity Void combined with the multitude of Chozo statements describing the Universe as "Infinite" could make some statements of High 3-A arguable.
Also, "Collapsing all dimensions" wasn't the part, it was "Causing the dimensional collapse of the Entire Universe" is generally a Low 2-C statement.
Also, "Collapsing all dimensions" wasn't the part, it was "Causing the dimensional collapse of the Entire Universe" is generally a Low 2-C statement.
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I can't say I remember when "Causing the dimensional collapse of the Entire Universe" was stated in the manga- mind linking it? I can't find it when I look through it.
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Lord Nid posted multiple scans; though I only found the "Entire Universe being swallowed up". And "The Universe being reduced to absolute nothingness".
Truth be told, that's still vague when it comes to 3-A vs Low 2-C. I think I might need to wait for the Universe page to be updated; as the 3-A vs High 3-A vs Low 2-C debates are still needed to be updated based on Ultima Reality and Sera Ex's standards. But here are some notable guidelines that I've known between conversations.
Truth be told, that's still vague when it comes to 3-A vs Low 2-C. I think I might need to wait for the Universe page to be updated; as the 3-A vs High 3-A vs Low 2-C debates are still needed to be updated based on Ultima Reality and Sera Ex's standards. But here are some notable guidelines that I've known between conversations.
- Big Bangs are typically treated as 3-A, unless it specifically states to be effecting time and space, then it's Low 2-C
- A simple "Destroy the Universe" is typically 3-A, but "The entire Universe" or "Destroy all existence" statements are typically Low 2-C
- Methods are often important, destroying it via physical means such as giant explosions are usually 3-A unless specifically stated. But destroying the Universe via dimensional distortions and collapsations are typically Low 2-C if it's describing "The whole universe".
- Also, I've heard DragonMaster and Ryukama say that "Reducing the Universe to a void" or "Universe to Absolute nothingness" are Low 2-C statements, which also seem to follow loosely into Sera's general description of Low 2-C feats yes.
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I don't think any of his scans say "Causing the dimensional collapse of the Entire Universe".
Most of that doesn't seem relevant here.
Reducing the universe to a void is 3-A.
Most of that doesn't seem relevant here.
Reducing the universe to a void is 3-A.
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You don't need to be passive aggressive. I gave scans with multiple statements saying the universe would be obliterated or annihilated, with the clear intent of saying the universe would (functionally) cease to exist. I tried to explain how normal black holes are capable of destroying time, and that the Animus's black holes were well beyond those. If there's a reason to disregard the statements, or it doesn't meet the burden of proof, fine.
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I'm not sure where you're assuming I was being passive agressive. DDM quoted that part, so I assumed that there was a literal scan where it's stated.
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