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SAM VS JOTARO (3-0-0)
- Thread starter Baken384
- Start date
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Violent table fragmentation(Sam): 601,077.50752 Joules
Jotaro bents metal bars: 2,079,416.4363 Joules
Sam would haS around 3x disavadvantage and skill advantage, not mentioning means to paralize jotaro with presure points
Jotaro bents metal bars: 2,079,416.4363 Joules
Sam would haS around 3x disavadvantage and skill advantage, not mentioning means to paralize jotaro with presure points
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Yeah even if Jotaro has the AP advantage it wouldnt be by much and it wouldnt be the first time Sam has taken on opponents twice her size, her physical strength and pressure point incap methods coupled with being much more skilled in H2H combat would still net her a win, even if its by grappling rather than an outright slugfest
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JOTARO GET BUTTERED!!!!
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The bigger they are the harder they fall, huh
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3.4x is a pretty hefty advantage, especially for a feat that wasn't meant to injure the target, and that's the type of advantage Jotaro has, that's like putting a featherweight against a super heavyweight, that's the type of shit that knocks you out in a single blow and gives you traumatic injuries. Even a mere 2x gap is huge.
Couple that with reactions go brrr, being a stonewall, and utterly eclipsing in being able to take punishment
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And yet Sam has won fights of that big a size and weight gap before, multiple times
Speed is equalized
Neither of which help against an opponent grappling you and using pressure points to incap you
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Also 3.4 isnt that big when the one shot gap is 7-7.5x
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NGL i should clean up icarly and make the rest of the profiles at some point but that would involve binge watching three full Nick series and two movies and scanning the Icarly website (if its still up) for feats, but that would require effort...
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Sam upscales a lot in skill and AP against a bunch of people, some that are "undeafeatead MMA champios" and the likes of Gibby who on his young could break open doors, split wooden beams and slam people hard enough to crush tables back
Even with a 3x imes AP, sans should upscale a lot her self and her skill advantage is jus to big to be ignored.
Even with superior reactions, Sam skill would more them counter that
Even with a 3x imes AP, sans should upscale a lot her self and her skill advantage is jus to big to be ignored.
Even with superior reactions, Sam skill would more them counter that
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Uh, since when had she fought someone stated and shown to be several times stronger than her? Larger yes, but beating the shit out of 10-A dudes bigger than her means literally nothing. Unless you're saying these dudes were also 9-B and comparable in which case, proof?
Exactly?
"The combat speed of that faster character is assumed to be equalized to the combat speed of the slower character. Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc."
Jotaro's combat speed is equalized to Sam's, but Jotaro still has some funny meme reactions above his own innate combat speed
Literally, a single hit from him is going to put her on her ass. Not to mention his stamina eclipses her going by the profiles, we're talking about a dude who can and will fight even if he's been utterly brutalized, shattered bones, bleeding out, stab wounds, internal bleeding and more, and be fine despite all that. Sam would literally have to mutilate him before he stops fighting, all without getting hit a few times herself.
Yeah, a one-shot. 3.4 is still well within the knocked-out cold and heavy injury category. It's absolutely massive, he's 3 and a half Sam's combined, casually.
At that point, ask yourself, do you think Sam could take her own attacks several times over and be fine? At that point she may as well be a stonewall. 7-7.5 is when it becomes an AP stomp, not when it becomes a good advantage.
So? How strong are they? Are they also 9-B? Or are they actual MMA champions? It doesnt take skill to beat the shit out of people you outstat a thousand times over.
So? He's weaker, but he's also weaker than both people here, upscaling against someone who Jotaro also outstats isn't an advantage, Jotaro knocked Josuke on his ass and Josuke is also 9-B
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I mean, "knock out cold" in my mind implies close to a one shot. Just a simple confusion.
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My guy, two of Sam's feats come from beating the shit out of guys who have 9-B feats of their own, namely Rita Rooney and John Zakappa, the 7th and 1st best MMA fighters in the entire world respectively, both of whom are stronger than the 10th best MMA fighter Jackson Colt who performed a 9-B table break with one hand while explicitly holding back so he didnt kill his opponent, and the latter of which is strong enough to casually perform a 9-B feat of crushing skulls with his bare hands. Sam took multiple blows from and then oneshot Rita and stomped John twice.
Again, she literally knows pressure points that can KO people in seconds, even just by grabbing their wrist. She doesnt need to kill or even brutalize him, all she would need is to touch him for a few seconds and he'd be out cold.
He has an AP advantage but he is at a heavy, heavy skill disadvantage, Jotaro is primarily a pure brawler type versus an actual trained fighter who is used to fighting people well above her weight class.
Explained above
TBH Sam should probably have keys, its a weirdly canonically thing that the guys in the show got stronger as they got older but Sam still stomps them, and Gibby performed his door break feat when he was a child.So? He's weaker, but he's also weaker than both people here, upscaling against someone who Jotaro also outstats isn't an advantage
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May as well be, definitely gonna leave someone dazed or knocked out for a bit.
Could, ironically look up some MMA mismatches for ideas.
That's better.
That is still a 3.4 Ap gap regardless. Except not really because you just said she one shot them and stomped them
I wasn't asking in terms of AP lad, I was asking in terms of actual skill, and saying she facetanked and then one shot goes against her contending with them in raw skill.
"Touch him", has to actually touch him before he crosscounters or something. I can not stress enough, Jotaro is basically on TASbot here. If she blindsided him sure, but if he knows he's in a fight that's gonna be a tad hard.
What? Jotaro knows how to fight, it isn't something that gets much spotlight but he do, and he's pretty well known for it too, being stated to have never lost a fight early in part 3.
Hell the reason why he was in prison at the start was because 7 dudes, with weapons, including a boxer, thought they all needed to jump him at once
And you're acting like Sam is Batman, having a skill advantage only goes so far against someone who sees you in slow motion and is 3.4 times stronger.
Jotaro has a 9-B feat as a 7yo too and can floor Josuke who can one shot Koichi who has like 8 9-B feats
If we're entering the realm of scaling fuckery, Jotaro has enough scaling bullshit under his belt to mitigate her's. Stick to the actual calculated values for this.
So who's going to explain how Sam gets past someone who holds a demonstrable statistical advantage over her, that is basically on a TASbot, skill or not, landing a hit is gonna be a huge hurdle, and she has to avoid getting struck herself.
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does sam even scale to vfragging a table or just normal frag, theres no scans on her profile and i dont remember how badly stuff got destroyed on that show
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Her feat was fragging but Jackson vfragged the table and she scales well above him
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k
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so what exactly are joots reactions still at despite equalization
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Man i remember the good old days when speed equalized meant speed is equalized lol
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His reactions drop 81.27417746759721% from what they normally are
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Yes, Jotaro has a 3.4x advantage over the 10th strongest MMA fighter and his 9-B feat that he performed with one hand while holding back, who is weaker than the 7th and 1st best MMA fighters, both of whom get stomped and oneshot by Sam. The actual gap between Jotaro and Sam would be much lower.That is still a 3.4 Ap gap regardless. Except not really because you just said she one shot them and stomped them
I mean, im not sure exactly how to answer that? Both Rita and John had previously been undefeated in MMA, with Rita having never even been knocked down before Sam fought her, and Rita should in turn scale above Shelby Marx, another MMA fighter in ICarly who had the reputation of no one ever lasting a full minute against her in a fight
See, heres where that logic kinda bites you in the ass a bit, it applies to reactions, not combat speed, so he would be able to dodge Sam's attacks if she went on the offensive but if he went on the offensive he would be the same speed as Sam, meaning Sam can react to his attacks just fine and can counter them just as well.
Do we know how he won those though? Jotaro isa big and physically strong guy, its not hard to assume he just overpowered his opponents seeing as he has no actual combat training that we know of.
Yeah no, that win is chocked up to Star Platinum folding everyone that attacked Jotaro, not Jotaro himself.
You and your fallacious 'Jotaro sees everyone in slow motion' argument. Thats not true even in his own verse and you should be well aware of that. Ive said it above but to reiterate, his FTL stuff would only apply to REACTIONS, not his general speed, he can dodge Sam on the offensive but once he goes on the offensive Sam would have no trouble reacting to him. And as said above, Jotaro is not 3.4x stronger
Its already been explained.
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even if sam can react to jotaros punches she'll never be able to hit him with his FTL reactions, if its roughly 81% less like chariot said, then hed go from his normal 225.15c reactions to 42.7c, sam isnt touching him once
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She doesnt need to hit him, just catching one of his punches would **** him over, again, she can literally incapacitate him in seconds just by grabbing his arm
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she cant grab him either, he'll see his punch is about to get countered and pull back
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Nope, that would fall under combat speed, not reactions, so he would not be able to
And so comes the glaring problem with someone having higher reactions than their combat speed
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i was thinking up until now that combat speed is attack speed and reactions is reactions, but that cant be true cause attack speed is a separate stat, so how is combat speed not just attack and react speed, that doesnt make any sense, jotaro viewing his own punches at a snails pace already felt pretty silly anyway
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Yeah and Jotaro did his while holding back with a quick knee without even bothering to take his hands out of his pockets.
The actual gap is 3.4x.
You want to start random scaling chains? Ok, Jotaro floored Josuke, Josuke floored Koichi, Koichi can tank being ragdolled through furniture breaking them. Gap rectified.
Like, I could get this if Jotaro actually tried doing his feat, but as it stands his was casual as well, as such, he's unquantifiably above his own feat by a bit, scaling doesn't work there.
That isn't skill, that's stat stomping those who likely have skill
It's literally no different than funny jotaro skill meme below, but worse because you've gone on record saying Sam just one shot them instead of properly throwing hands.
Reading comprehension Weekly, I'd suggest you reread what I actually said, do not waste both our time twisting what I meant let alone repeating what I said.
I brought it up because why do you think they went that far? Because Jotaro himself had never once even been hurt in a fight (Which is said when he was in the Nurse's office in the Kakyoin Arc), a whole gang tried to roll up to him.
Yes Plat beat them into the dirt, I mentioned that, but does that change the fact that Jotaro never lost before on his own merit, and they felt the need to go that far? No. It's no different than your "well they never lost/got hurt before" examples, it's off-screen fluff that paints him as a tough fighter and people rolling up with weapons and boxers to try and beat him merely corroborates that. I never once said he beat that group himself.
????????????????????
Ignoring the fact you obviously don't know what "fallacious" means, lmao what? I didn't say he sees everyone in slow motion, but he sure is going to be seeing her in slow motion, that, is what i said, and it's true, he has the perception to react to literally anything she could possibly do neg diff.
Again Weekly, try rereading what I actually said, because you either misread what I said, or are deliberately misrepresenting what I said, either way.
Visual representation of Sam trying to hit Jotaro while he has an internal monologue thinking about how to go about planting her like a tree
Oh yeah, Jotaro doesn't see people and things way the **** faster than him or comparable in slow motion.
While he's been on guard, there's been times though yeah, but that doesn't matter, most things in his verse are magnitudes above peak human, guess who isn't though?
I am well aware, it's why I'm saying it, it's happened here and there, all the time? Obviously not, but against peak human stuff? Lmao, even if you cherry picked the whole like two times he's been caught off guard among the 80 or so examples, which is a canonical weakness (for some reason????), it still doesn't drop to failing to statue things like Sam,
Not like it matters because that isn't what I said, I said he'd see Sam, the peak human fighter, in slow motion because his perception is like a billion times higher. Hell even if it was only like 5x higher that'd be enough, even 2x would be a bit problematic.
Yes, his reactions, which is what I said.
Not his combat speed, like I said.
He obviously isn't punching at that speed, he can dodge Sam, which is honestly all that matters, that voids her pressure points, it voids her landing actual meaningful hits.
Not true, remember, he and Sam's combat speed are equal, he's going to be able to account for her dodging with ease, literally TASbot, frame by frame that shit
Jotaro boutta take Sam to AGDQ fr
To her, his punch is a punch, to him, he's in the code.
Literally, 3.4x stronger, if you do not want to use what's been calculated, then I can't partake this match with you, get a new calc.
Whipping out scaling chains doesn't mean anything, I can do the same lad. At the end of the day, she's above 600kj, while Jotaro is above 3.4x above her highest scaled feat without even trying. She upscales, he upscales, the obvious thing to do would be to go "ok so they both upscale off two values 3,4x apart, thus, they should be about 3.4x apart". Arbitrary assumptions don't help anyone.
You're not going to pretend Jotaro doesn't have a hefty AP advantage, if you don't like it, calc some stuff for Sam, 3.4 is huge, even if it was just 2x it'd be huge.
And you sure as **** aren't acting like Jotaro isn't going to be on guard in a fistfight and thus have a billion years to react to whatever she does. This also goes for her reacting to his own attacks. Sam, in order to win, must beat down someone 3.4 above her, that may as well be in the training room at 0.1x speed, who's also going to be able to take any punch she throws at him like it's nothing because goddamn does he have insane tolerance to damage. pressure points are her main wincon, landing them ain't gonna be so easy
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Reactions, not perception.
There is a difference lad. But even then, having equal combat speed but 100000000x perception would still allow you to react and dodge the instant they even begin to make said movement, it's basically the equivalent of frame trapping or having frame advantage in a fighting game, yeah sure, you both have about the same speed, but if the other dude is reacting frame 1 and is +1000000000 on block
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That's exactly the issue
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Yup, Reactions is being able to move out of the way of attacks, combat speed is the speed at which you fight physically. When Reactions are absurdly higher it creates a big problem in VS threads of people assuming that combat and reaction speed are always the same when theyre not in this case.
Nope, that would be combat speed, not reactionsThere is a difference lad. But even then, having equal combat speed but 100000000x perception would still allow you to react and dodge the instant they even begin to make said movement, it's basically the equivalent of frame trapping or having frame advantage in a fighting game, yeah sure, you both have about the same speed, but if the other dude is reacting frame 1 and is +1000000000 on block
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"Reaction speed is defined as a single movement in a defined timeframe, which a character has been shown capable of. A series of movements in similar timeframes makes this combat speed, so this term should only be applied for a single, quick movement. Examples include ducking backwards to dodge bullets and diving away to dodge extremely fast vehicles."
When was the last time you actually read the speed pages?
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A series of movements in similar timeframes makes this combat speed, so this term should only be applied for a single, quick movement. Examples include ducking backwards to dodge bullets and diving away to dodge extremely fast vehicles.
Thank you for proving me right lol
About 5 minutes ago, why?
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Yes, and your point is contradictory to what you're arguing.
He can dodge like a billion times above what she's attacking it, she will never hit him as long as he's on guard, which he would be, given he's in a fight.
He sees her 10000000x below his perception, he will see everything she does, he will know the moment she tries to dodge, and just like, ya know, react with said reactions? And catch her mid dodge? Like even people irl do? But magnified like a dozen magnitudes in his case.
He is not throwing a punch at said speed, his punch speed is equal to her's, but he's dodging and reacting to what she does at said speed, landing a hit isn't going to be hard for him while for her it's impossible.
So explain how she's ever actually going to land a hit? Worse case scenario Jotaro just out stamina's her.
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Its not though, my point is that Jotaro can react to her attacks, but once he goes on the offensive his speed is equal to hers and thus she can react to him just fine as he will no longer be FTL as he is using combat speed and not reactions.
Yep, and the first time he punches back Sam catches it and incaps via pressure points
Nope, because at that point it wouldnt be reactions anymore, it would be combat speed which is equalized here.
She does not, i repeat DOES NOT need to land a hit to win.
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Got a calc for that?
And yet youre arguing that the same wouldnt apply to Sam
Implying she stat stomped them lolThat isn't skill, that's stat stomping those who likely have skill
It's literally no different than funny jotaro skill meme below, but worse because you've gone on record saying Sam just one shot them instead of properly throwing hands.
She did, in fact, throw hands with them, both fights were almost two full minutes long
Nah, i know what i said and i meant it. That fight was won by Star Platinum, not Jotaro throwing hands with 7 people at once.
Three shopkeepers with sticks say otherwise boyo.
fallacious
[ fuh-ley-shuhs ]adjective
containing a fallacy; logically unsound:
I didn't say he sees everyone in slow motion, but he sure is going to be seeing her in slow motion, that, is what i said, and it's true, he has the perception to react to literally anything she could possibly do neg diff.
Again Weekly, try rereading what I actually said, because you either misread what I said, or are deliberately misrepresenting what I said, either way.
Visual representation of Sam trying to hit Jotaro while he has an internal monologue thinking about how to go about planting her like a treeignore plat coming out
Yada yada blah blah reaction speed reaction speed, not repeating myself again for no reason.
She doesnt need to land a hit, just catch one of his punches.
Mans speaking in computer out here like it applies to a fistfightNot true, remember, he and Sam's combat speed are equal, he's going to be able to account for her dodging with ease, literally TASbot, frame by frame that shit
Jotaro boutta take Sam to AGDQ fr
To her, his punch is a punch, to him, he's in the code.
Aight cool, if yuo dont want to participate thats fine by me, grace is already over as is and Sam has already won by vote count.
Cool. Ive already explained why Sam wins.
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This is half true, you're forgetting the fact he can still react to her movements? He throws a punch at said speed, she can dodge it, but if he reacts to her dodging, he can just like, ya know, adapt like even a basic normal person could do? That doesn't mean his punch speed is changing. He's basically reacting to her reaction.
Or ya know, he pulls his hand back the moment he sees her arms move to grab it? Something he can do while being the same speed as her, especially because they have the same combat speed, you do realize that they cover the same distance in the same amount of time, if he pulls his punch the moment she goes to grab, he's getting it back every time, especially with the longer reach. Or ya know, crosscounters, or the billion other things he could do when seeing someone basically frame by frame?
Uh, yeah it would? He can dodge, he can react, but he aint throwing hands at that speed, and honestly, he only needs to dodge once if that's what you're arguing. She's so slow comparatively, he just dodges, counters, knocks her out cold with his AP advantage. Fight lasts a whole half second.
"She doesn't need to land a hit she just needs to grab him for a few seconds".
That is unironically even worse, those few seconds to him, he's going to be able to counter back everytime, assuming she can even touch him (she cant).
Would take five seconds. Probably even higher than this tbh. But isn't that a bit ironic coming from you?
No, I'm arguing they both didn't try, they both upscale, his feat is 3.4x her's, ergo, he's 3.4x above her because that's how it works here? Don't like it? Get a calc or something, l honestly, I do not care what you do, but this ain't gonna fly.
Lmao, nice cherry picking, I can list a dozen feats from Jotaro alone that eclipse that.
But uh, disingenuous much? Or did you forget Jotaro didn't even attempt to fight back? Why would he, after all, they're normal civilians who attacked him for stealing, and he's being forced to do shit by Steely Dan.
But if we're talking about things that say otherwise, you surely know there's a string of feats that dictate otherwise?
"she took hits then knocked them both out in one shot" - literally you
Either you're backpedaling, left out information for some reason, or whatever, don't care, my argument remains the same, she could literally be Batman in skill, not even Batman is overcoming a speed gap like that
Ok so you're just wasting both our time by repeating the very thing I said in that exact same sentence you originally replied to? Would appreciate it if you didn't waste our time like that please
Bro acting like it wasn't in the manga tooBro really out here trying to use the OVA as proof, im dead
Or acting like it was an argument? It's a visual representation of what would happen, remove it, nothing would change, replace it with another example, honestly, i don't care, I picked that one because it's cool
Goes to show much you remember I guess
"I'm currently supervising the OVA for JoJo, which will be released this summer! It's very good, so I hope you look forward to it! - Araki, V-JUMP, 1993 Feb.
Concession accepted
Which she'd never do because Jotaro is going to react to her trying to do that?
An analogy, it's even worse in this situation. It's not a mere few times, Jotaro quite literally has over a 3405825242.7184466019417476x reaction advantage over anything she could possibly do. She will never be able to hit him, if only because she's getting floored half a second in.Mans speaking in computer out here like it applies to a fistfight
You know all those votes for Sam based on her being stronger are void right?
"Sam is super skilled and will land a hit on someone who sees her 3405825242.7184466019417476x slower, and he will be incapable of reacting to her grabbing him".
No Weekly, that sounds like denial to me tbh
Jotaro uses his ten morbillion reaction/perception speed to just react to what Sam does, and floors her with his hefty AP advantage, voting Jotaro.
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If you had to deal with Becky you'd understandBruh, why u guys putting so much effort arguing into a meme matchup
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