Sakuya Night vs Sun Goku

[OnsokunoSonic]

That still doesn't cover my contention, as they can spawn from any sort of direction within a 4km wide range given that her range is limited by using danmaku and her space-time ability doesn't extent by that much in AoE, while Goku can teleport between universal distances far away and destroy compressed space-time dimensions alone.

Goku will get close to Sakuya and then get hit by it, also, the DW affects time, as the other version of DW reverses time itself.

this is not a very relevant argument, time travel stuff is not something that you would need literal immeasurable speed to give reactions.

It's manifesting through time, and it appears instantly as you can see.

we
already
established
that Goku withstands time stop for different layers.

Time stop from all of time and space though?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

You have to proof Goku can react to knives popping from the past and future, not to mention every time period is stopped when she's doing that.

I'm not even arguing that Goku reacts and dodges that.
I'm arguing Goku automatically attacks and destroys the space time before sakiya herself attacks.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

this is not a very relevant argument, time travel stuff is not something that you would need literal immeasurable speed to give reactions.

except you do need to. if speed is equalized someone who starts with time travel would kill someone without acausality or if the other party can one shot in their first move then it would be incon as whoever thinks or attack first wins.

there is a reason why people say Immeasurable speed is just wanked time travel

I'm not even arguing that Goku reacts and dodges that.
I'm arguing Goku automatically attacks and destroys the space time before sakiya herself attacks.

also regarding Goku being able to act without thinking doesn't mean anything in speed equalized. as speed is equalized they are on equal speed thus if both of their attacks are thought-based or react based it would still happen at the same time.
as thought based is instant the moment a character thinks the attack happens being able to sense it beforehand would need precognition and being able to react to intent doesn't make one faster than intent as the intent is the attack itself if reacting is instant then the action would happen at the same time as the intent/thought

just because your attack is automatic doesn't make you faster than someone unless you're implying Goku's attack is passive which they aren't. That is wrong under the assumption of speed is equalized. and you cannot destroy something that hasn't happened yet and by the time it happens, there is no way to react as it is instant.

Voting incon

 

[StrymULTRA]

Sakuya FRA.

 

[SemiRaedi]

Goku's Ki sense is pretty much automatic when a foe is getting nearby, he doesn't need to think in order to perform it.

just clarifying it.

UI reacts to sakuya's intent as stimulus, it reacts to her intent and makes the body move on it's own without having Goku think about the action, making him hit her and destroy her attack before she can hit him. UI is not precognition, it's automatic action, it cuts reaction time making you act without needing to consciously think which is why he can counter sakuya's space time attack.

Thanks for explaining

 

[SemiRaedi]

except you do need to. if speed is equalized someone who starts with time travel would kill someone without acausality or if the other party can one shot in their first move then it would be incon as whoever thinks or attack first wins.

there is a reason why people say Immeasurable speed is just wanked time travel

also regarding Goku being able to act without thinking doesn't mean anything in speed equalized. as speed is equalized they are on equal speed thus if both of their attacks are thought-based or react based it would still happen at the same time.
as thought based is instant the moment a character thinks the attack happens being able to sense is beforehand would need precognition and being able to react to intent doesn't make one faster than intent as the intent is the attack itself if reacting is instant then the action would happen at the same time as the intent/thought

just because your attack is automatic doesn't make you faster than someone unless you're implying Goku's attack is passive which they aren't. That is wrong under the assumption of speed is equalized. and you cannot destroy something that hasn't happened yet and by the time it happens, there is no way to react as it is instant.

Voting incon

It was stated above that Goku could react to the negative intent inside Sakuya (via ki which would be equalised in this much) and then use UI which skips the "thought based" problem and would cause him to automatically attack Sakuya before she launches the attack. He isn't faster than her, he is just acting faster since unlike her he doesn't need to think.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

It was stated above that Goku could react to the negative intent inside Sakuya (via ki which would be equalised in this much) and then use UI which skips the "thought based" problem and would cause him to automatically attack Sakuya before she launches the attack. He isn't faster than her, he is just acting faster since unlike her he doesn't need to think.

you cannot act faster at the start of a battle during speed equalize.
The referee says fight
Goku acts
Sakuya thinks
both happen the moment the fight starts and well before the fight begins they are willing to kill and that's the only information they get. Goku wouldn't sense her intent well before the fight starts unless given prior knowledge
being able to act without thinking only works if both parties proceed to their next move which in that sense Goku will definitely act faster
but not at the start of the fight.

 

[SemiRaedi]

you cannot act faster at the start of a battle during speed equalize.
The referee says fight
Goku acts
Sakuya thinks
both happen the moment the fight starts and well before the fight begins they are willing to kill and that's the only information they get. Goku wouldn't sense her intent well before the fight starts unless given prior knowledge
being able to act without thinking only works if both parties proceed to their next move which in that sense Goku will definitely act faster
but not at the start of the fight.

Fair enough, incon fra

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Okay before I vote, I'll ask, does sakuya's attack appear instantly? Like does she think and knives instantly appear or does the attack take time?
Another thing, does she actually spawn stuff inside her opponents or does she just create patterns like in that gif?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Another thing, does she actually spawn stuff inside her opponents or does she just create patterns like in that gif?

the one in the gif is considering spell card rule in gensokyo wherein they aren't allowed to kill their enemies and must defeat them with grace and style
her doing that is simply trying to make it graceful if the player makes a mistake and gets hit.

Okay before I vote, I'll ask, does sakuya's attack appear instantly? Like does she think and knives instantly appear or does the attack take time?

Yes, it appears instantly although Goku can resist time stop so he can move the appearance of the knives also appear at the same time the time was stopped even in the players perspective in the gif and that's already with the context that they have to be graceful with their ability usage and not brute-forcing it with their haxes.

instances of Touhou character without spell card rule in effect do not hesitate to overuse or brute force their haxes so Sakuya is likely to do the same.

Another thing, does she actually spawn stuff inside her opponents

She can spawn and will most likely do so seeing how Touhou characters without spellcard rule do not play around but also put out attacks just in case she thinks spawning it on where Goku is might not be enough to kill him.

funny enough if Sakuya is bloodlusted she will mostly go EE which will not work and give Goku the win

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

the one in the gif is considering spell card rule in gensokyo wherein they aren't allowed to kill their enemies and must defeat them with grace and style
her doing that is simply trying to make it graceful if the player makes a mistake and gets hit.

Yes, it appears instantly although Goku can resist time stop so he can move the appearance of the knives also appear at the same time the time was stopped even in the players perspective in the gif and that's already with the context that they have to be graceful with their ability usage and not brute-forcing it with their haxes.

instances of Touhou character without spell card rule in effect do not hesitate to overuse or brute force their haxes so Sakuya is likely to do the same.

She can spawn and will most likely do so seeing how Touhou characters without spellcard rule do not play around but also put out attacks just in case she thinks spawning it on where Goku is might not be enough to kill him.

funny enough if Sakuya is bloodlusted she will mostly go EE which will not work and give Goku the win

I see. Voting inconclusive then.
In the case of EE, last time they said the EE works by time manipulation or something so it will still work on Goku but I don't know if that's true.

 

[Knifeman29]

incon fra

 

[sanicspood]

incon fra

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Incon FRA

 

[Greatsage13th]

Incon fra

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

That's 7 incon and 1 vote for Sakuya correct?

 

[StekFence]

Goku will get close to Sakuya and then get hit by it, also, the DW affects time, as the other version of DW reverses time itself.

It's manifesting through time, and it appears instantly as you can see.

Time stop from all of time and space though?

I mean, that just sounds like it has a wayyyyyy big range, not potency

 

[Greatsage13th]

I mean, that just sounds like it has a wayyyyyy big range, not potency

It just sounds confusing like how the **** someone resists time stop that was activated in the past while they are in the present.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Also, isn't this grace?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Also, isn't this grace?

Way beyond that point.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Nice.

 

[Angelzewolf]

I don't see Goku winning. I wouldn't doubt him having a higher AP (and debately can resist her time stop) however, Goku isn't immune to EVERY time based abilities. Certainly not those that don't directly affect him and instead affects her attacks or the surroundings.

Vados statement can't be used as a guaranteed unless we see better evidence within the source. It was a one time statement (I believe) and I don't even think Hit's time based powers work in a similar fashion to a typical time stopper. We know Goku 100% ages, no matter the form he takes. Something like Age Manipulation would definitely work against him. And I'm not sure why I saw "Goku can resist EE" when we know he can't. Beerus has no issues using it as a threat against Goku. Him resisting the God of Destruction energy doesn't count. As every time we've seen this done, it was being heavily lowered and weakened. (Seemingly the sphere and hakai appear to be a little different but the difference and similarities don't matter).

So Sakuya's EE should, in theory, work. I don't believe she does anything like what Hit does. (I.E a physical construct that can clearly be seen). I believe it's just one and done. And I even looked at his wiki and didn't see anything for resistance to Existence Erasure (unless I missed it, I did skim).

I don't think even think Hit stopped his time, even once. In the first fight, Hit simply skipped time by a few seconds. And then when he powered up further, he added onto that and skipped time for even longer. It was more Hit leaping through time instead of outright stopping it. While what he does is similar, Vados straight up states he doesn't stop time. He skips ahead. When Goku broke through, that wasn't Goku smashing through time stop. It was Goku forcing himself into Hit's Pocket Dimension.
The first instance we see of Hit stopping time is against Jiren and that was the very last hit (minus the energy like ball). I'm 100% sure Goku can do a similar feat but I don't know where all this "layer" stuff is coming from. We know his time abilities improved (in terms of him skipping time, as he directly confirmed). But not enough to accurately say "Hit managed to add three layers onto his time stop". Unless I missed something and if I did, feel free to correct me.

What Sakuya does with time is drastically different than what Hit does. Vados also states how Hit "used the time he skipped to stop Jiren". Which is something Sakuya doesn't do. Hit's time stop potency directly correlates to the amount of time Hit had skipped. Which makes it hard to evaluate when compared to Sakuya.

But that aside. Sakuya doesn't create a pocket dimension in all her moves. I'm pretty sure it's the same location, just from different time periods squished together. And it happens near instanteously and, unless Goku has prior knowledge, unreactable. Goku can "sense the intent" all he wants but that doesn't give him an understanding of what exactly is going on. The knives will simply spawn in the location, some might even spawn inside of him depending on his position. There is no "reacting" to something like that without some semblance of Precognition.

Overall, I'm voting for Incon. However I lean more towards Sakuya winning via hax in contrast to Goku. (Assuming we were talking about DBS Goku).

 

[sanicspood]

Him resisting the God of Destruction energy doesn't count. As every time we've seen this done, it was being heavily lowered and weakened.

that doesnt matter as that energy ball was still stated to be capable of obliterating the soul from the existence like a regular hakai

 

[Vietthai96]

Vados statement can't be used as a guaranteed unless we see better evidence within the source. It was a one time statement (I believe) and I don't even think Hit's time based powers work in a similar fashion to a typical time stopper. We know Goku 100% ages, no matter the form he takes. Something like Age Manipulation would definitely work against him. And I'm not sure why I saw "Goku can resist EE" when we know he can't. Beerus has no issues using it as a threat against Goku. Him resisting the God of Destruction energy doesn't count. As every time we've seen this done, it was being heavily lowered and weakened. (Seemingly the sphere and hakai appear to be a little different but the difference and similarities don't matter).

So Sakuya's EE should, in theory, work. I don't believe she does anything like what Hit does. (I.E a physical construct that can clearly be seen). I believe it's just one and done. And I even looked at his wiki and didn't see anything for resistance to Existence Erasure (unless I missed it, I did skim).

I don't think even think Hit stopped his time, even once. In the first fight, Hit simply skipped time by a few seconds. And then when he powered up further, he added onto that and skipped time for even longer. It was more Hit leaping through time instead of outright stopping it. While what he does is similar, Vados straight up states he doesn't stop time. He skips ahead. When Goku broke through, that wasn't Goku smashing through time stop. It was Goku forcing himself into Hit's Pocket Dimension.
The first instance we see of Hit stopping time is against Jiren and that was the very last hit (minus the energy like ball). I'm 100% sure Goku can do a similar feat but I don't know where all this "layer" stuff is coming from. We know his time abilities improved (in terms of him skipping time, as he directly confirmed). But not enough to accurately say "Hit managed to add three layers onto his time stop". Unless I missed something and if I did, feel free to correct me.

What Sakuya does with time is drastically different than what Hit does. Vados also states how Hit "used the time he skipped to stop Jiren". Which is something Sakuya doesn't do. Hit's time stop potency directly correlates to the amount of time Hit had skipped. Which makes it hard to evaluate when compared to Sakuya.

1. No one said Goku resist Age Manipulation, problem is Saiyan age is higher than human age, and it while take time for that to work, Goku just stomp with AP.
2. Goku resist Hakai energy which have EE property in it, end of story, if you want to remove the resistance, make a CRT.
3. What, what physical construct?????
4. Bad for you because the wiki treat timeskip as timestop, but again if Hit was treated as skip time then Goku SSBKKx10 would be immeasurable speed which even worse to Sakuya
5. Hit time stop potency???? Lol no, do you even know what is time stop, stopping short amount of time or huge amount of time doesn't matter, timestop is timestop, because the way they perform is slightly different doesn't mean somehow one superior to other

All i see in the comment is a headcanon, fanfiction of yourself projected onto this match

 

[Angelzewolf]

1. No one said Goku resist Age Manipulation, problem is Saiyan age is higher than human age, and it while take time for that to work, Goku just stomp with AP.
2. Goku resist Hakai energy which have EE property in it, end of story, if you want to remove the resistance, make a CRT.
3. What, what physical construct?????
4. Bad for you because the wiki treat timeskip as timestop, but again if Hit was treated as skip time then Goku SSBKKx10 would be immeasurable speed which even worse to Sakuya
5. Hit time stop potency???? Lol no, do you even know what is time stop, stopping short amount of time or huge amount of time doesn't matter, timestop is timestop, because the way they perform is slightly different doesn't mean somehow one superior to other

All i see in the comment is a headcanon, fanfiction of yourself projected onto this match

I would break this down, but I have no clue how that works here. So I'll just have to use numbers instead.

1. You are correct about the aging thing. I misread one of the comments (since I was skimming due to being out). And does it take time though? Maybe I missed something, but I don't recall anything about that. (Assuming you mean, it'll take Goku time to eventually reach an age where it'll play a role...what does AP have to do with it? Speed is equalized and given Sakuya's ability to fast forward and slow down time. I feel like she could dodge long enough. But who knows).

2. I'm fairly confident Goku isn't immune to EE (and I know that isn't what you're claiming. I simply brought it up as a potential victory for Sakuya. As stated he has some resistance to it. Simply claimed it was a toss up whether or not Sakuya could affect him).

3. This part was confusing. What I was referring to was Hit's Pocket Dimension. Or other similar things. In which Sakuya doesn't seem to do that with the spellcard in question. Basically stating How Hit's ability ≠ Sakuya's spellcard.

4. I guess it is bad for me. I don't know about manga, but anime wise. That's not what Hit used during his two fights against Goku. I also highly doubt that would classify as Immeasurable speed considering Hit isn't attacking through time. He pops back up when throwing a physical attack. And the two instances we see Goku break through, he forced simply "destroyed" Hit's Pocket Dimension. (Or I guess in the first fight, potentially force into). He didn't leap into time or battle through time, or anything else that would classify as Immeasurable. I never denied Hit stops time. In fact I stated he does and he did against Jiren (even stated how Goku can do exactly what Jiren did). And isn't speed equalized? Maybe I misread that too. But the Immeasurable statement either way wouldn't count in this fight.

5. If you want to get technical. It does. The potency (or what an individual can affect) differs from person to person. And I'm pretty sure that argument was literally what the Goku supporters were using. "Hit reached 3 levels of time stop", not an exact quote but something similar. Even saying how it would depend on how many layers Sakuya time stop is. (Some even bringing up tierings like 3-D, 4-D, etc). So...?

I could fire back on your last comment. But I rather keep things civil if that's what you see in your head. Good on you! (I would send a thumbs up emoji but I have no clue if that's allowed or not sooo).

 

[StekFence]

I would break this down, but I have no clue how that works here. So I'll just have to use numbers instead.

1. You are correct about the aging thing. I misread one of the comments (since I was skimming due to being out). And does it take time though? Maybe I missed something, but I don't recall anything about that. (Assuming you mean, it'll take Goku time to eventually reach an age where it'll play a role...what does AP have to do with it? Speed is equalized and given Sakuya's ability to fast forward and slow down time. I feel like she could dodge long enough. But who knows).

2. I'm fairly confident Goku isn't immune to EE (and I know that isn't what you're claiming. I simply brought it up as a potential victory for Sakuya. As stated he has some resistance to it. Simply claimed it was a toss up whether or not Sakuya could affect him).

3. This part was confusing. What I was referring to was Hit's Pocket Dimension. Or other similar things. In which Sakuya doesn't seem to do that with the spellcard in question. Basically stating How Hit's ability ≠ Sakuya's spellcard.

4. I guess it is bad for me. I don't know about manga, but anime wise. That's not what Hit used during his two fights against Goku. I also highly doubt that would classify as Immeasurable speed considering Hit isn't attacking through time. He pops back up when throwing a physical attack. And the two instances we see Goku break through, he forced simply "destroyed" Hit's Pocket Dimension. (Or I guess in the first fight, potentially force into). He didn't leap into time or battle through time, or anything else that would classify as Immeasurable. I never denied Hit stops time. In fact I stated he does and he did against Jiren (even stated how Goku can do exactly what Jiren did). And isn't speed equalized? Maybe I misread that too. But the Immeasurable statement either way wouldn't count in this fight.

5. If you want to get technical. It does. The potency (or what an individual can affect) differs from person to person. And I'm pretty sure that argument was literally what the Goku supporters were using. "Hit reached 3 levels of time stop", not an exact quote but something similar. Even saying how it would depend on how many layers Sakuya time stop is. (Some even bringing up tierings like 3-D, 4-D, etc). So...?

I could fire back on your last comment. But I rather keep things civil if that's what you see in your head. Good on you! (I would send a thumbs up emoji but I have no clue if that's allowed or not sooo).

It’s stated hit timestops in both the anime and manga, I think.

 

[Angelzewolf]

It’s stated hit timestops in both the anime and manga, I think.

Does it? I rewatched the episode where Hit and Goku square off (Second round). And Vados says something along the lines of "You're not too far off" when describing Hit's timeskip.

I know one instance where the Time Cage was described like Time Stop (I think that's the move against Jiren?). I just assumed Time Skip and Time Cage were two different things (since I saw them listed separately on a DB wiki a year or two back). But if Time Skip is the general name/category for all his time abilities. Then yeah, that was my bad. (I just know for a fact, he did not stop time during the 2nd fight against Goku, but maybe he did during the first and I just misinterpreted).

 

[Vietthai96]

I would break this down, but I have no clue how that works here. So I'll just have to use numbers instead.

1. You are correct about the aging thing. I misread one of the comments (since I was skimming due to being out). And does it take time though? Maybe I missed something, but I don't recall anything about that. (Assuming you mean, it'll take Goku time to eventually reach an age where it'll play a role...what does AP have to do with it? Speed is equalized and given Sakuya's ability to fast forward and slow down time. I feel like she could dodge long enough. But who knows).

2. I'm fairly confident Goku isn't immune to EE (and I know that isn't what you're claiming. I simply brought it up as a potential victory for Sakuya. As stated he has some resistance to it. Simply claimed it was a toss up whether or not Sakuya could affect him).

3. This part was confusing. What I was referring to was Hit's Pocket Dimension. Or other similar things. In which Sakuya doesn't seem to do that with the spellcard in question. Basically stating How Hit's ability ≠ Sakuya's spellcard.

4. I guess it is bad for me. I don't know about manga, but anime wise. That's not what Hit used during his two fights against Goku. I also highly doubt that would classify as Immeasurable speed considering Hit isn't attacking through time. He pops back up when throwing a physical attack. And the two instances we see Goku break through, he forced simply "destroyed" Hit's Pocket Dimension. (Or I guess in the first fight, potentially force into). He didn't leap into time or battle through time, or anything else that would classify as Immeasurable. I never denied Hit stops time. In fact I stated he does and he did against Jiren (even stated how Goku can do exactly what Jiren did). And isn't speed equalized? Maybe I misread that too. But the Immeasurable statement either way wouldn't count in this fight.

5. If you want to get technical. It does. The potency (or what an individual can affect) differs from person to person. And I'm pretty sure that argument was literally what the Goku supporters were using. "Hit reached 3 levels of time stop", not an exact quote but something similar. Even saying how it would depend on how many layers Sakuya time stop is. (Some even bringing up tierings like 3-D, 4-D, etc). So...?

1. What her age manip can do again, instant or long timeframe????.
2. Confident or not is not up to you, He have resistance to EE on his profile, if you have problem with it, make a CRT thread. Also resistance =/= Immunity.
3. How it is relevant to this anyway???
4. Rewatch the series, SSBKKx10 Goku intercepted Hit when he still in the middle of timeskip, if timeskip is treated as skip through time, mean Goku intercepted someone who skip time into the future thus Immeasurable speed. But this wiki treated time skip as time stop so it is not relevabt to this thread anyway. Hit Pocket Dimension is only a thing at the start of the mini-arc before ToP.
5. Potency and range are different thing, timestop is timestop, 5s or 1 day time stop is just duration, when a character resist timestop then stop time for 1 month or 1 year doesn't mean anything. 3D or 4D is dimensionality potency of the hax

 

[Angelzewolf]

1. What her age manip can do again, instant or long timeframe????.
2. Confident or not is not up to you, He have resistance to EE on his profile, if you have problem with it, make a CRT thread. Also resistance =/= Immunity.
3. How it is relevant to this anyway???
4. Rewatch the series, SSBKKx10 Goku intercepted Hit when he still in the middle of timeskip, if timeskip is treated as skip through time, mean Goku intercepted someone who skip time into the future thus Immeasurable speed. But this wiki treated time skip as time stop so it is not relevabt to this thread anyway. Hit Pocket Dimension is only a thing at the start of the mini-arc before ToP.
5. Potency and range are different thing, timestop is timestop, 5s or 1 day time stop is just duration, when a character resist timestop then stop time for 1 month or 1 year doesn't mean anything. 3D or 4D is dimensionality potency of the hax

1. Assuming you're asking how fast is her Age Manipulation technique. That's something you'll have to ask the Touhou experts. I don't think it was ever clarified, just that she can do it. But, I could be wrong.

2. I think you might need to reread my second point. Cause this...doesn't address anything unless you read the "I'm confident" and stopped there. I'm aware resistance doesn't equal immunity...that's...that's exactly what I implied...? I didn't even address anything with certainty.

3. Because people are saying Goku can just break through Sakuya's spellcard? When that's not at all how that works. It...seems pretty relevant to bring up. What Sakuya does, regarding the spellcard in question, isn't the same as what Hit did in any of his appearances. And thus shouldn't be treated the same. (Especially considering how differently they're described minus the time stop which is only part of the spellcard).

4. You are actually correct about this. While I don't agree with the time stop notion. There isn't much I can do about it and frankly I don't care enough to make a CRT.

5. Who brought up range? I did speed read so maybe some people did. But from my understanding. The discussion prior to my arrival didn't bring up range. It just questioned if Sakuya's time stop is superior to Hit's or good enough to affect Goku. Which doesn't involve range. But again, I could be mistaken. And thanks for the 3D and stuff explanation...I don't know why you explained since what you said is what I said (unless you wanted me to be specific and put "Dimensional potency" instead of just potency. Apologies if that's what you wanted), but alright.

 

[LordGinSama]

The fact that Goku somehow got a incon against Sakuya is a top quality meme.

 

[Deidalius]

Why is this matchup in inconclusive? Doesn't Sakuya stomp the **** out of Goku now?

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Why is this matchup in inconclusive? Doesn't Sakuya stomp the **** out of Goku now?

Just take it to the vs thread removal request thread instead of necroing a thread that's over a year old
Though I've noted this be removed in that thread before

 

[Deidalius]

Just take it to the vs thread removal request thread instead of necroing a thread that's over a year old
Though I've noted this be removed in that thread before

What's necroing?

 

[KingNanaya]

What's necroing?

replying or bumping threads that are months old. also, you're a goofball

 

[Deidalius]

replying or bumping threads that are months old. also, you're a goofball

I see, is that against the rules?

 

[KingNanaya]

I see, is that against the rules?

it's very looked down upon, but it usually isn't.