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Saint Seiya The Lost Upgrade (2-A)

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This upgrade CRT is a continuation of this thread, which was rejected, with some of the more conservative estimates receiving more support. This CRT is going to be a formal revision to upgrade the Saint Seiya manga universes to 2-A based on the existence of a "multidimensional" universe containing infinite space-time continuums. So without further ado, let's get into it. Strap in, this is going to be a long read.

Cosmology - ND
First, we need to go back to the early chapters of Next Dimension, when Saori and Shun travelled to Olympus with the intent of speaking to Chronos and travelling back in time to save Seiya from Hades' curse. They then run into Hecate, who leads them to the Lake of Time, and we get this statement:


こ...これは星雲!?
Is... Is that a nebula?!

ひとつだけじゃない大宇宙のすべての星雲が見えるだろう
There's more than one. You should be able to see all the nebulae of the macrocosm.

ここには過去と未来が混在している
The past and the future exist alongside one another here.

時間を超越した世界なのさ
It's a world that transcends time.


She says that from their vantage point they can see "all the nebulae of the macrocosm". What does this mean? Well, according to the Merriam-Webster definition, the word "macrocosm" can refer to the universe itself, with words such as "cosmo" and "creation" all being listed as synonyms. As for the kanji itself, 大宇宙, it means roughly the same according to Jisho, and it shows up earlier in the Classic manga, when Marin is teaching the nature of the cosmos to Seiya:


夜空に光り輝くあの星もそうよ
That star shining in the night sky is like that too.

この大宇宙にある物すべてが原子でできているのよ
Everything in this macrocosmo is made up of atoms.

いい? 破壊するということの根本は原子を砕くということなの
Do you understand? The basis of destruction is to break apart atoms.


Given the context of her dialogue it's obvious she's talking about the universe here, which solidifies the connection between the universe and the macrocosm, rendering them identical. This is rather crucial, because the "nebulae" spoken of by Hecate are moments or periods in time, as Chronos later explains:


ならば行くがよい、前聖戦への時の入口は星時計の真下の赤い星雲だ
In that case, you should go. The time-entrance to the previous holy war is the red nebula directly beneath the star hourglass.

他の星雲にふみこんだらまるでちがう過去か未来へとばされることになるぞ
If you step into any other, you'll be sent to a completely different past or future.

は…はい、ありがとうございますクロノス様
Ve-very well. Thank you kindly, Lord Chronos.

礼などいらぬ女神であるおまえの命を預かったのだからな…
No thanks are required. After all, you, a goddess, are entrusting your life to me...

ただしひとつだけいっておく
However, I will just say one more thing.

歴史を変えてはならぬ
History must not be changed.

目の前なにがおころうとも歴史を変えるような手出しをしては絶対にならぬ
No matter what happens before you, you must absolutely not intervene in a way that would change history.

承知いたしました
I understand.


And not only that, the "nebula" that Saori wishes to travel to, the previous holy war against Hades, is stated to be a full blown dimension by Shijima:


感じる・・・時空のはるか かなたから・・・この次元に 近づいてこられる アテナの大いなる 小宇宙が・・・
I can sense her... from the far reaches of time and space... the vast cosmos of Athena is approaching this dimension.

And this dimension is stated to possess a different flow of time, having a different time axis altogether:


ただひとつ教えていただきたいことがございます
There is just one thing I'd like to ask.

何か!?
What is it?!

これまで封印されて身動きひとつできなかったあなたがどうして
Until now, you were sealed and unable to move. How is it that you...

復活の兆しを得たのでしょうか?
...are showing signs of reviving?

フッ
Heh...

そのことか…
That is because of...

アテナよ
...Athena.

むうっ
Huh?!

や…やはり…
Just... just as I thought...

アテナが時空を超えて未来からこの時代に来ようとしているのだ
Athena has transcended time and space and is attempting to come to this era from the future.

過去と未来では時間軸が違うので向こうでは一日でもこちらは何年先になるやも知れぬが…
But since the time axis between the past and the future is different, one day there could be many years here...


And this is stated again later by Shiryu:

https://imgur.com/a/ktlKsG7
オレたちの眠りが浅かったのは
Our sleep was shallow...

未来と過去の時間軸の違いなのかもしれぬが…
...probably due to the difference between the temporal axes of the future and of the past...


Shun...

とにかく今は先を急ごう
In any case, we should hurry onwards.

うん
Yeah!

今こそアテナの下へ!!
It's time to go to Athena!!


Cosmology - GR
So the macrocosm is a complex structure that houses within itself different dimensions with their own time flow. A multiverse, in essence. There is further evidence to be found in Episode G Requiem, where the universe itself is described as "infinite multidimensional":

https://imgur.com/a/OH6AtIz
彼(シュラ)は誰だ?
Who is the Capricorn Gold Saint Shura?

無限に存在多次元宇宙その世界に広がる永遠の滅びの中で
Among the eternal destruction that extends across the worlds that make up the infinite multidimensional universe,

別の世界の自分すら倒し未来を変える道を探し続けた
he has defeated even alternate versions of himself and continued to search for a path to change the future.

先に辿り着く境地
He has finally reached...???


Note that 多次元宇宙 literally means multidimensional, so while some translators have translated the scan as "multiverse", I feel that a literal translation of the Kanji makes more sense in context. This is further supported by another page which describes the existence of "infinite presents", with Shura also stating he can't remain in the same time axis for long here, implying each dimension has its own:

https://imgur.com/a/dQdbIW9
無限に存在する「現在」を救う為永久に闘う「修羅」と化したのか?
Have you taken the form of an Asura/Shura who fights for eternity in order to save an infinite number of presents?

シュ…ラ…!?
Shu... ra...?!

動くな星矢——
Hold still, Seiya.

今は少しでも回復に努めよ——己(オレ)は
Take a moment to recover, even if only a little. I...

同一の時間軸内には
永く留まれぬ——

...cannot stay in the same time axis for long.


"Infinite presents" would mean infinite points in time, and based on the Lake of Time, that should mean there are infinite dimensions within the universe, which is consistet with the previous page describing the universe as a multidimensional construct. Shura himself has been ejected from the time axis at this point, and has been wandering through dimensions for eternity:

https://imgur.com/a/qO3UaJW
時間軸から弾き出され
A man who has been thrust out of the time axis

次元の狭間を彷徨いながら
And is doomed to wander between dimensions

永遠に闘い続ける運命の者
Fighting for eternity

誰からも認識される事さなれる事がなく
Moving through an infinite number of dimensions

無限に存在する多次元を移動しながら
Unrecognized by anyone

全ての人間と聖闘士のカとなり
Becoming a force for all men and Saints

And the difference in the flow of time between dimensions was noted by Saga in their travels:

https://imgur.com/a/W7ID97w
状況終了———— じげん なが
The situation is over

この次元は刻の流れが
In this dimension, the flow of time

緩やか故
is slow

にっすうおお 留まれる日数が多いげっほど ―二か月程なのである
So we can stay here for a few months


These dimensions are also called dimensional worlds:

https://imgur.com/a/vg9RmQi
この男は——
This man…

禁忌なる力を持つ者——
This man possesses forbidden power…

数多の次元世界で闘い力を吸収し己の剣としてきただけでなく
Not only has he fought in many dimensional worlds and absorbed power, using it as his own sword

では不可能な力を得ている
But he possesses a power that no human should have


So Shura is moving across space-time, and he can only remain in any given time axis for a brief period of time, and once it's up, he's eliminated from that dimension and sent to another, which will have its own time axis, so on and so forth.

Put it all together and you get a macrocosm that encompasses infinite dimensions with different time dimensions, ie, a 2-A construct. There's one last piece of evidence that I would like to go over, that being a WoG statement from Megumu Okada, the author of the Episode G manga. The following is a translation of a Twitter conversation which took place in 2017 where Okada described his view of the multiverse:

@meguzou1303
偶然近場に友人がいて突如合流して何故かケンタに移動。くだらない話をしながらかたや漫画を描きかたやスマホゲーをするという怪しい会になっております。多次元宇宙って何よ?と言われ説明しはじめで「メンドクセッ!」と切り捨てられて涙目(´;Д;')説明に良い映画とかなんかあったかな…

Some friends happened to be around and we unexpectedly met up and somehow ended up going to KFC. It became something of an unlikely gathering where we either drew manga or played smartphone games while chatting about pointless things. Someone asked, "what's a multiverse?" I started to explain, but I was cut off with a "so annoying!" I was in tears (´;Д;') I wonder if there are any good films or something that explain it...


@ryorx07
「『聖闘士星矢エピソードGアサシン』って漫画読んでる?まだ読んでないなら読んでみな?きっと分かるさ!」という方向でどつでしょう…( ̄▽ ̄;)

"Are you reading 'Saint Seiya: Episode G - Assassin'? If you haven't read it yet, why not give it a try? You're sure to understand!" I imagine that's something like how that would go... ( ̄▽ ̄;)


@meguzou1303
読んだ上で「多次元宇宙って何?」と言われましたので僕は己の説明不足に猛省しております…(´;Д;')

I've been asked "what's a multiverse?" by those who have finished reading it, so I deeply regret not offering more of an explanation... (´;Д;')

@sugi7tuku4
個人的にはミルフィーユかパイの生地というイメージだったりします。これも正解なのかは分かりませんが……。

Personally, I have an image of it being like a millefeuille or pie dough, but I don't know whether this is right or not...


@meguzou1303
ミルフィーユ…ああ、密接した生地がそれぞれの次元で重なり合いながら宇宙を形成している的な…

Like a millefeuille... Yes, with all the dimensions piled on top of each other to form the universe, as though they were juxtaposed layers of dough...


@sugi7tuku4
しかも、その(多次元宇宙)ミルフィーユは、層ごとに使われているミルククリームとカスタードクリームとイチゴ(?)の比率が微妙に違うとか。(他の材料でも可)口にした部分により、味わいが変わるという逸品でございます……で、いいのでしょうか?

Furthermore, each layer of that (multiverse) millefeuille can use stuff like slightly different ratios of milk cream, custard cream, or strawberries (?). (Other ingredients are OK too.) It's a gem whose taste changes depending on where you bite into it... Is it like that?

Here's the link to the conversation.
So Okada describes the "multiverse" as a series of juxtaposed dimensions that form the "universe", resulting in it being akin to a layered dough (millefeuille). So there you have it folks, the Saint Seiya "universe" is just an infinite multiverse.

Scaling
So, who scales to this? Quite a few characters, actually. First, it's important to remember what created this universe: the Big Bang. In fact, not only did it create the universe, but according to a Specter from Episode G, it can also reshape it and even destroy it outright:

https://imgur.com/a/OkawVnW
スターダスト・レボリューション
Stardust Revolution

女神(アテナ)が求めるものは「支配」ではなく「協和」
Rather than "domination", what Athena desires is "harmony".

「協和」しようと願う力こそが平和を守護する最強の力
A power that seeks "harmony" is the strongest power that can safeguard peace.

なんという力!!!宇宙を破壊し全く違うものに変革させる力のような凄まじい小宇宙!!
Such power!! It's like his enormous cosmo could destroy the universe and reform it into something completely different!

黄金聖闘士の魂は「宇宙開闢(ビッグバン)」の力に等しい小宇宙の力が刻まれているのか
Are the souls of the Gold Saints marked by a cosmo with a power equivalent to that of the Big Bang?!

その力こそ「愛」
That power is "love".


Which is consistent with Classic where Saori says love makes humans "infinitely strong":

https://imgur.com/a/DTreWYH
で…でも人間はどんな人でも愛というものを持っているのです
B-but every human, regardless of what kind of person they are, has love.

その愛のために人間はどこまでも優しくなれる!どこまでも強くなれるのです!!
For the sake of that love, humans can become endlessly kind! They can become endlessly strong!!

たとえ神といえども愛を知らぬ貴方に人を罰する資格などありません!!
You know nothing of love, even if you are a god, so you have no right to punish humans!!


Second, the Athena Exclamation technique replicates the potency of the Big Bang on a single point:

https://imgur.com/a/ygMkcOG
黄金聖闘士が三位一体となって放つこの技は究 極まで高めたゴールドの攻撃的小宇宙が一点に 集中するため
A technique unleashed by a group of three Gold Saints, by concentrating their offensive golden cosmo, raising to its utmost extreme and focusing it in a single point.

その破壊力は小規模ながら宇宙創造のビッグ・ バンにも匹敵する...
Despite its small scale, the destructive power of this technique is comparable even to the Big Bang that created the cosmos...

ゆえにそのあまりにすさまじい破壊力のため神 話の時代よりアテナに禁じられた究極の影の闘
Due to its overwhelmingly immense destructive power, this ultimate shadow technique has been forbidden by Athena since the mythological era...

アテナ・エクスクラメーション!!
The Athena Exclamation!


So anyone who scales to or above either the Big Bang or the Athena Exclamation should get the 2-A rating. And who would that be? Well, based on the fight clash between the Athena Exclamation and the Lightning Void in Episode G Assassin:

https://imgur.com/a/ZaLlSqG
A・Eと拮抗する力!?これをアイオロスが
This power rivals the Athena Exclamation?! Is Aiolos...

一人で放っているのかッ!?
...really releasing this all by himself?!

----
この力…人を超えているッ!!!存在しない力
This power... it's beyond human!!! It's the power of nonexistence!

超える!?存在しない!?まさか
Beyond?! Nonexistence?! No way…

第八識(エイトセンシズ)を超えた…九番目の意識領域かッ!?
He's surpassed the Eighth Sense... into the ninth realm of consciousness?!

何故だ!?
How?!

絶対の虚無で押し切れないとは!?
Why can't I overcome them with my absolute nothingness?!

なにか…在る
There is... something...

この拮抗を崩している力が
A power that is breaking the stalemate...

三人の後ろに
Behind the three of them...

もう…一つ
...there is... somebody else.


Anyone with a functional 9th Sense, Dunamis, or 10th Sense scales above it. God Cloths too, considering they require infinite Cosmo to unlock, which should be > 3 Gold Saints. This means the following profiles will be affected:

TL;DR
The "universe" is a 2-A construct which was created by the Big Bang, which is potent enough to destroy and reshape said "universe". The Athena Exclamation has the power of the Big Bang, so anyone who scales to, or above it should be rated the same or higher.
Agree: @Kumagawaa, @Cindrallig7, @StekFence, @Compsito, @MasqueTLDF, @Hasty12345, @Kaiou1991, @AerrowStorm1, @Xxiaa, @TokiNoOuja, @Danny33wise, @Huesito88, @Maverick_Zero_X, @DarkDragonMedeus, @ActuallySpaceMan42, @Planck69
Disagree: @Infinitinet
 
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Well, nd seems to solidly show that the macrocosm contains several different timelines or whatever you want to call them.
And the Big Bang seems fine. I agree
 
Given this is a continuation of my first thread, where most people didn't have a problem with the universes being 2-A I agree with this thread.
 
Just a few hours left

hq720.jpg
 
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