Saint Seiya Infinite Speed Upgrade

[StekFence]

i mean does normal human in that verse can move FTL? bcuz even move faster than bullet are counted as beyond human capability (for me) n shura can move FTL so that God arent wrong. so it doesnt mean infinite speed

Ok so in this verse, the power of humans will cap out at the 7th sense. At this stage, they are MFTL+ through feats. So moving ftl is quite ez for them. Anything that goes beyond the 7th sense is a God.

 

[StekFence]

This does not change that in the story itself the movement at the speed of light is described as more than that of a human (even various gods such as giants and other gods cannot move at that speed), and in that scene it is also indicated that Shura was moving at the speed of light and only exceeds this speed until he activates the 9th sense. The speed of light has always been the average speed that a Gold Saint can reach (without going to the maximum or with a power up) in in the story or franchise.

Why is this relevant tho. First of all, You really need to make a crt. Secondly, this is derailment.

 

[StekFence]

but rn ill disagree bcuz that guy showed JP ver didnt mean infinity.

Actually, the quote you are referring to was a statement of Countless. And yes it was mistranslated. However, there is no infinite statement that is mistranslated to my knowledge.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Why is this relevant tho. First of all, You really need to make a crt. Secondly, this is derailment.

Because the first attack is also described as an unlimited or infinite number of hits, and Shura blocks that attack with a movement at the speed of light, this means that actually the infinite argument has no importance for the character's speed, because it does not refer to infinite hits at the same time (a real attack with an infinite number of hits simultaneously should cover an infinite amount of space) and it is simply something that can be blocked by a simple attack at the speed of light (not an attack described with infinite speed, this is never described in the story).

I told you before, it is you who must prove in this topic that the characters have that constant speed in the story, something I already confirmed that contradicts what is described in the manga by the characters. If you want this CRT to be approved you must confirm your information and for that you must base it on what is described in the series or some official material.

 

[StekFence]

I told you before, it is you who must prove in this topic that the characters have that constant speed in the story, something I already confirmed that contradicts what is described in the manga by the characters

the contradiction is SoL. your trying to say they are normally around light speed, when this is entirely wrong from the perspective of the Wiki. The only statement related to Shuras speed was that it was beyond a human. The statement was said by someone who is beyond humanity, so it should hold.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Ok so in this verse, the power of humans will cap out at the 7th sense. At this stage, they are MFTL+ through feats. So moving ftl is quite ez for them. Anything that goes beyond the 7th sense is a God.

When Bronze Saints (protagonists) or characters achieve a miracle in this franchise they gain a power that rivals the gods (at least as Poseidon in a human avatar, before getting a power up for the fury), and this a power they never master, which is why Seiya can challenge Poseidon and then has trouble early in the fight with Charon's rowing speed at mach 18 and is almost killed by Lune, a Specter who is defeated by Kanon with one finger. The power of a Gold Saint is already equal or even greater than the power of several gods, most of the Giants, Astreia, Deimos, Phobos, Harmonia, etc, are at the level of Gold Saints or even some are weaker, the only gods that surpass them are gods as powerful as Hypnos, Thanatos, Ker and the 12 Olympic Gods.

the contradiction is SoL. your trying to say they are normally around light speed, when this is entirely wrong from the perspective of the Wiki. The only statement related to Shuras speed was that it was beyond a human. The statement was said by someone who is beyond humanity, so it should hold.

The important thing when we talk about a new ability or power for a character is the series and if you want that to be added to the Wiki, you have to provide the corresponding information based on the series or some official material. As I explained that means nothing, because in the story itself the speed of light described as something that is not human (even several gods cannot move at this speed in the franchise) and even in that scene it is indicated that he was moving at the speed of light and only until he reaches the 9th sense it is indicated that he exceeds the speed of light at that moment.

 

[StekFence]

Ok so the timeline of the fight goes like this, Shura is introduced, and then intercepted Mugen Koudou(translated as “infinite crimson way”). The enemies comment on this is “This power...it’s not that of a mortal”. The enemy is a god, so this can be believed. What happens next is the enemy attacks with an attack called Mugen Gouken(translated as “Infinite powerful fists”). Shura reacts to it, comments that it is “An infinite amount of violent assaults that come from all directions”(The whole manga panel is literally covered in fists btw) then goes on to say, Even at light speed, I couldn’t intercept all of them. Then he activates the 9th sense, and goes at a speed that is stated to be FTL.

Now Lancelot. I can see you disagree with me based on the grounds that Shura said he went FTL. However, this is PIS, because as you can see, Shura is MFTL+ Normally. While I can agree Gold Saints should be rated as SoL, up to Mftl+, the point is Gold Saints have feats of attacking from universal distances, without using any special power. Saga reacts, using just his own clothless power(Ikki states he can’t use his full power, and therefore speed without his cloth), and Shura reacts and counters. Therefore, a statement of Shura being at SoL, and then needing the 9th sense to reach FTL is incoherent, because he can do this with just the 7th sense. Hell, Seiya is the saggy Gold saint, scales to this shura feat, and still gets absolutely owned by the Cyclops. So Shura had to be moving at a speed far surpassing MFTL+ anyway.

 

[StekFence]

So he is contextually moving at a speed that has to be faster than Seiyas MFTL+, in order to dodge attacks stated to be infinite in number, and produced in a short timeframe. The attack is Described as infinite, and it’s name even implies its infinite.

 

[StekFence]

Alright, in fairness, the enemy is not a god, but simply a human who has reached the power of a god, like Shura. Statement still applies, seeing as he has the stats of a god.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Ok so the timeline of the fight goes like this, Shura is introduced, and then intercepted Mugen Koudou(translated as “infinite crimson way”). The enemies comment on this is “This power...it’s not that of a mortal”. The enemy is a god, so this can be believed. What happens next is the enemy attacks with an attack called Mugen Gouken(translated as “Infinite powerful fists”). Shura reacts to it, comments that it is “An infinite amount of violent assaults that come from all directions”(The whole manga panel is literally covered in fists btw) then goes on to say, Even at light speed, I couldn’t intercept all of them. Then he activates the 9th sense, and goes at a speed that is stated to be FTL.

The first attack which is also described as infinite, Shura blocked it with the speed of light, this means that you don't really need an infinite speed to stop that attack, because the amount of hits is not infinite at the same time and they are only infinite because he continues to hit the opponent without stopping. An infinite number of hits at the same time should cover an infinite space, which is not the case in this scene.

Now Lancelot. I can see you disagree with me based on the grounds that Shura said he went FTL. However, this is PIS, because as you can see, Shura is MFTL+ Normally. While I can agree Gold Saints should be rated as SoL, up to Mftl+, the point is Gold Saints have feats of attacking from universal distances, without using any special power. Saga reacts, using just his own clothless power(Ikki states he can’t use his full power, and therefore speed without his cloth), and Shura reacts and counters. Therefore, a statement of Shura being at SoL, and then needing the 9th sense to reach FTL is incoherent, because he can do this with just the 7th sense. Hell, Seiya is the saggy Gold saint, scales to this shura feat, and still gets absolutely owned by the Cyclops. So Shura had to be moving at a speed far surpassing MFTL+ anyway.

This is not PIS because in the manga it is never described that the average speed of a Gold Saint is faster than light, on the contrary it is clearly stated that Gold Saints move at the speed of light on several occasions, and only on a few specific occasions have they exceeded this speed, so the manga itself contradicts what you are saying. The Gold Saints have never attacked from another universe, the only one who did this was Thanatos and he is one of the most powerful gods in this franchise. Aiolos never attacked from another universe, he only attacks from his planet which is in the same universe and he attacked the Gold Saints who were on their way to the Underworld, this is an unknown distance and is only a dimensional power, this is similar to Deathmask attacking Shunrei with his telekinesis from the Yomotsu Hirakasa.

 

[StekFence]

Shura blocked it with the speed of light,

That is an assumption, and The only indicator of his speed is that it was beyond a humans

 

[StekFence]

An infinite number of hits at the same time should cover an infinite space, which is not the case in this scene.

A fictional depiction of this does not require realism. A character can surpass the speed of sound without a sonic boom.

 

[StekFence]

because the amount of hits is not infinite at the same time and they are only infinite because he continues to hit the opponent without stopping.

Also an assumption, as Shura comments that the current amount of hits coming towards him is infinite.

 

[StekFence]

This is not PIS because in the manga it is never described that the average speed of a Gold Saint is faster than light, on the contrary it is clearly stated that Gold Saints move at the speed of light on several occasions, and only on a few specific occasions have they exceeded this speed, so the manga itself contradicts what you are saying

So are you saying the Mftl feats are outliers?

 

[Hasty12345]

Yes, an infinite attack should take infinite space, just like how going faster than light is impossible.

 

[mal]

So are you saying the Mftl feats are outliers?

well mftl still (any amount) Speed of Light

 

[StekFence]

Waiting for this to go through so I can then move on to My hades crt I alr made.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

That is an assumption, and The only indicator of his speed is that it was beyond a humans

Shura indicates that he moved at the speed of light at that moment and that he only exceeds this speed when he activates the 9th sense.

A fictional depiction of this does not require realism. A character can surpass the speed of sound without a sonic boom.

We need the feats that indicate this, for example a scene that shows that this is really something infinite. That is why several character descriptions that claim they can move at the lightning or light speed are not accepted if the character does not have some feat that proves that description.

Also an assumption, as Shura comments that the current amount of hits coming towards him is infinite.

No, this is what we can see in that scene, where the attack is only drawn as a large number of continuous hits.

So are you saying the Mftl feats are outliers?

This only happens in some specific moments, when they ignite their cosmos to the maximum, this is something that is even described and we can see in the series, where it is also clearly described that the average speed of a Gold Saint is the speed of light.

 

[StekFence]

that he only exceeds this speed when he activates the ninth sense.

Actually, this is not stated. If anything, it means that to exceed the speed of light to the degree he needs, he would need the speed of a 9th sense user. It doesn’t state that he can only exceed sol with the 9th sense, but that he needs the boost that the 9th Sense would give.

 

[Hasty12345]

How can one draw an infinite amount of fists on a finite amount of paper???

 

[StekFence]

We need the feats that indicate this, for example a scene that shows that this is really something infinite

the attack is named infinite so and so, and it’s desribed to be infnite. The guy creating these attacks has a statement of turning 1 fist into infinite fists. He is the fattest source of infinite speed statements in the franchise. The only reason you don’t believe them is an appeal to reality.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Actually, this is not stated. If anything, it means that to exceed the speed of light to the degree he needs, he would need the speed of a 9th sense user. It doesn’t state that he can only exceed sol with the 9th sense, but that he needs the boost that the 9th Sense would give.

No, the scene itself indicates that Shura was moving at the speed of light, and only when he activates the 9th sense can he exceed this speed in that scene.

The description in that scene is clear, you are the only one insisting on something different.

 

[Hasty12345]

the attack is named infinite so and so, and it’s desribed to be infnite. The guy creating these attacks has a statement of turning 1 fist into infinite fists. He is the fattest source of infinite speed statements in the franchise. The only reason you don’t believe them is an appeal to reality.

I disagree, Okada needs to learn how to draw an infinite amount of fists.

 

[Hasty12345]

No, the scene itself indicates that Shura was moving at the speed of light, and only when he activates the 9th sense can he exceed this speed in that scene.

The description in that scene is clear, you are the only one insisting on something different.

You’re repeating yourself. If you feel your argument hasn’t been debunked, than you don’t need to repeat the same thing for 50 posts a thread.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

the attack is named infinite so and so, and it’s desribed to be infnite. The guy creating these attacks has a statement of turning 1 fist into infinite fists. He is the fattest source of infinite speed statements in the franchise. The only reason you don’t believe them is an appeal to reality.

He is never described anywhere as having infinite speed and is only attacking with several hits in that scene, something that does not indicate anything infinite in the term you want to use, and is simply only infinite because he can attack countless times without stopping. It is just a movement that even the character in that scene can stop with the speed of light, something that is even described in the manga itself and makes it clear that there is nothing that indicates infinite speed in that scene, and you just assume that this character is faster than that speed contradicting even what is described in the manga.

 

[StekFence]

No, the scene itself indicates that Shura was moving at the speed of light, and only when he activates the 9th sense can he exceed this speed in that scene.

The description in that scene is clear, you are the only one insisting on something different.

Can u quote/bring scans of this? Because to my knowledge, chapter 17 starts with Shuras interception of the attack, and then the power is called “beyond a human”. Then there is a comment on how there shouldn’t be anymore gold Saints, Athena used time to protect the earth,Athena says shura is wandering forever, saga and shura discuss Shuras arm and the flow of time being wonky, The cyclops says Shura will wander/fight forever, fight gods, and then the cyclops attacks. Then you have Shuras Infinite attacks from all directions statements

 

[StekFence]

and is only attacking with several hits in that scene,

The number of hits is described as infinite. Several is just downplay. You are Assuming Shura is calling the number of attacks infinite because the attacks won’t stop coming, even though his comment is in referred to attacks already released. Also, how would shura even know how long the guys gonna attacks for.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Can u quote/bring scans of this? Because to my knowledge, chapter 17 starts with Shuras interception of the attack, and then the power is called “beyond a human”. Then there is a comment on how there shouldn’t be anymore gold Saints, Athena used time to protect the earth,Athena says shura is wandering forever, saga and shura discuss Shuras arm and the flow of time being wonky, The cyclops says Shura will wander/fight forever, fight gods, and then the cyclops attacks. Then you have Shuras Infinite attacks from all directions statements

The term more than a human has nothing to do with what you describe and I explained this before, I even posted the scans where a character also describes the speed of light as something more than a human.

I had also explained this before, where I indicated that it was moving at the speed of light and only until it reaches the ninth sense is when it exceeds this speed, reaching a superluminal speed.

This means nothing, Roland also says that Shura's speed is not a human thing and in that scene he moves only at the speed of light.
Roland: この速さ 人間のモノではない!!! 剣の追尾ができぬッ!!

Spoiler

Shura himself indicates that he moved at the speed of light in that scene, that is why he mentions that even with the speed of light he could not block the second attack and that is why he awakens the 9th sense to overcome the speed of light. This means that he moved at the speed of light in the first attack.
Shura: 光速をもつてしても
Shura: 全迎撃は「不可能」

Spoiler

Shura only moves at a speed faster than light until he awakens the 9th sense in that scene.

 

[StekFence]

Shura himself indicates that he moved at the speed of light in that scene, that is why he mentions that even with the speed of light he could not block the second attack and that is why he awakens the 9th sense to overcome the speed of light. This means that he moved at the speed of light in the first attack.

He does not say he was moving at SoL, he simply says it’s not enough. Why would Shura be moving at SoL, if Seiya, who is capable of the same exact speed feats as 7th/8th sense shura is getting creamed in this fight.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

The number of hits is described as infinite. Several is just downplay. You are Assuming Shura is calling the number of attacks infinite because the attacks won’t stop coming, even though his comment is in referred to attacks already released. Also, how would shura even know how long the guys gonna attacks for.

Because that is what we can see in the scene, where there is nothing to show that this attack was an infinite amount of hits at the same time, even Shura blocked this attack with a single movement with range, which produced a burst of energy of a few meters.

 

[StekFence]

Because that is what we can see in the scene, where there is nothing to show that this attack was an infinite amount of hits at the same time, even Shura blocked this attack with a single movement with range, which produced a burst of energy of a few meters.

The visuals to a scene describing, (at the very least) 100 million projectiles(assuming it’s at gold speed for 1 second), is obviously not gonna be accurate in the slightest. Nor is a fictional character blocking an (at minumum, assuming this cyclops is at minimum 7th sense power) Galaxy busting attack with a feedback of several meters.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

He does not say he was moving at SoL, he simply says it’s not enough. Why would Shura be moving at SoL, if Seiya, who is capable of the same exact speed feats as 7th/8th sense shura is getting creamed in this fight.

Literally, Shura is saying that he is moving at the speed of light (that's why he says that even with the speed of light he won't be able to block the next attack) and only until he activates the 9th sense he manages to surpass this speed. That's Seiya with a miracle, a cosmos that even challenges the gods and only manages to move at that speed in some specific scenes, for example when he goes to destroy the Main Pillar in the Temple of Poseidon, a moment where his cosmos even surpasses Poseidon fully awake in a human body with his real armor and divine weapon.

Spoiler

 

[StekFence]

That's Seiya with a miracle,

No, scaling seiya to Shura/sagas Universal distance attack exchange feat would get you mftl+. They did without miracles, they simply used their power to block an attack.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

The visuals to a scene describing, (at the very least) 100 million projectiles(assuming it’s at gold speed for 1 second), is obviously not gonna be accurate in the slightest. Nor is a fictional character blocking an (at minumum, assuming this cyclops is at minimum 7th sense power) Galaxy busting attack with a feedback of several meters.

Something that is not important, because the franchise has some feats that confirm the speed of light in the characters and the destructive power they possess.

 

[StekFence]

Hell, Shun can cross at least 2000 light years in less than a minute with the 7th sense

 

[Hasty12345]

No, scaling seiya to Shura/sagas Universal distance attack exchange feat would get you mftl+. They did without miracles, they simply used their power to block an attack.

He’s not gonna let up. He will stonewall with the same arguments non-stop.

please move on to the next point of contention and let thread spectators comment on this feat.

 

[StekFence]

Alr, so point 7 is contentious, but point 2 and 5 seem fine To everybkdy

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

No, scaling seiya to Shura/sagas Universal distance attack exchange feat would get you mftl+. They did without miracles, they simply used their power to block an attack.

As I explained before that attack never crossed any universe, it was only an attack by Aiolos from his planet that was in the same universe and only attacked the Gold Saints that were on their way to the Underworld, this is only a dimensional power, something similar to what Deathmask did when he attacked Shunrei from the Yomotsu Hirasaka.

Spoiler

Hell, Shun can cross at least 2000 light years in less than a minute with the 7th sense

This never happened and the Andromeda Chain crosses time and space to reach its target.

Spoiler

In this scene it is also described that Kaiser attacks are at the speed of light, even when he is blocking the attack of the chain.

 

[StekFence]

Gold Saints that were on their way to the Underworld,

They were already in it. That’s why they used AE. To bust out

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

They were already in it. That’s why they used AE. To bust out

They were headed for that place, because they had not yet reached the bank of the Acheron River, even Aiolos' goal was for them to enter the Underworld so that they would be trapped in that place.