Saint Seiya Infinite Speed Upgrade

[TheUnshakableOne]

if your arguing an Infinite level raise in Cosmo would also increase speed then the speedy scaling chain would be gargantuan .

this is just a general scaling chain not a specific one

Mariners < 7th Sense bronze bois < Gold Saints < 8th sense users < God Cloths < Sigurd < Golden God Cloth Seiya < 9th Sense Users < Gods

obviously if we did the proper scaling chain for every individual the scaling chain would be immense.


gold saints are already have 100x more cosmo than mariners sooo...

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I found the raw for this scene and i can confirm. the raw says the attack releases infinite projectiles and Seiya is repelling them all.

This is not important, because a later scene changes the description and now the character only says that there are many, the term narrative hyporbole applies perfectly in that example, since it is only vague description and there is nothing to indicate that they are really infinite attacks.

In the Japanese manga it just says many or numerous (数多).

For example, in fiction you can find several characters who claim to move at the speed of lightning or the light speed, but they are rejected in the Wiki, because they do not meet the standard of such speed and it seems that their description is just a hyperbole, and this case seems somewhat similar.

I went back and looked at the raw mentioned and i can confirm. Again the Kanji for Infinite is used

Shura stops the first attack with the speed of light, which is the standard speed of a Gold Saint in this franchise, so they don't need infinite speed to block an attack with that description.

However; I will say there is far more infinite speed feats that happen as well not just these even the classic has a couple

The franchise has some examples that might indicate infinite speed for some characters, but the example given in the topic is too vague and even contradicts itself within the story itself.

this is just a general scaling chain not a specific one

Mariners < 7th Sense bronze bois < Gold Saints < 8th sense users < God Cloths < Sigurd < Golden God Cloth Seiya < 9th Sense Users < Gods

obviously if we did the proper scaling chain for every individual the scaling chain would be immense.

The God Cloths in the manga are golden (this is the franchise's canon shade for these armors), the Golden God Cloth does not exist in the main universe of Saint Seiya.

The Marines like Bian are described with a speed close to the speed of light, not with the speed of light, this is one of the reasons why the Gold Saints are superior.

Marines (near light speed) < Gold Saints (speed of light and can be increased when they go to the maximum or when they reach a miracle) / Various Gods < 8th sense users (probably even higher, because it is a power that the gods do not possess and is the ultimate sense in the manga) < Poseidon (or Olympic Gods in a human body) < God Saints (Hades Arc) and Gods like Hypnos and Thanatos < Olympic Gods to the maximum < Hades, Athena, Zeus and Poseidon to the maximum < Saori to the maximum (she has the potential to be more powerful than the mythological Athena) < Eris with power ups / Chronos.

---

Shura is a gold saint, by default he’s experienced with the 7th sense and is never not gonna be using it in a fight. Why is this important again?

Well, I will expand on this comment. The Golden Saints start with the speed of light, this is the standard speed of these characters, although they can increase this speed through their cosmos to the maximum or what could sometimes be described as a miracle in the franchise itself.

Odysseus describes the speed of the Gold Saints as the speed of light.

Spoiler

Cain and Kaiser's blows are described as having the speed of light.

Spoiler

In many fights it is described that the Gold Saints are fighting at the speed of light. In this scene from Assassin, it is described that the speed limit of a Gold Saints is the speed of light (黄金聖闘士の最高速度は光速).

Spoiler

The Gold Saints can exceed that speed, but it's not a regular occurrence and only tends to happen in a few specific moments when they are at the peak of their abilities (sometimes described as a miracle in this franchise).

 

[Hasty12345]

I'm seeing quite a few disingenuous arguments here.

 

[StekFence]

cool thx.

It's Requiem not Assassin.

Following.

mY bad

 

[StekFence]

I'm seeing quite a few disingenuous arguments here.

what’s your vote?

 

[Hasty12345]

what’s your vote?

I'm neutral so far

 

[StekFence]

Alr

 

[Xxiaa]

Neutral there’s also this from the anime (Worded differently in the manga )

 

[FanSyst]

I am not sure about the infinite speed in Requiem.

The infinite attacks technique "mugen koudou" is countered by Shura before he moved to FTL speeds.

The confrontation between Mitsumasa and Shura took about 220 seconds.

 

[Xxiaa]

Nebula chain can also apparently travel beyond time and space to attack someone (Don’t know why this is bought up more )

 

[StekFence]

The infinite attacks technique "mugen koudou" is countered by Shura before he moved to FTL speeds.

When he does so, it’s said that Shuras power is not that of a mortal. So, Shura must have been using godly power. and as for the time limit, even if they had been moving at Hypersonic speeds, the fight still shouldn’t have taken that long anyways. The fight only lasted a few exchange of blows and dialogue.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I am not sure about the infinite speed in Requiem.

The infinite attacks technique "mugen koudou" is countered by Shura before he moved to FTL speeds.

The confrontation between Mitsumasa and Shura took about 220 seconds.

Infinite speed is faster than light

Also uts still Infinite distance traveled in a finite time that is still Infinite speed

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I am not sure about the infinite speed in Requiem.

The infinite attacks technique "mugen koudou" is countered by Shura before he moved to FTL speeds.

The confrontation between Mitsumasa and Shura took about 220 seconds.

This is the reason why I consider that this example does not serve to indicate infinite speed in any way, since this attack was blocked with the speed of light.

Neutral there’s also this from the anime (Worded differently in the manga )

It is true that in the manga it is different since some time ago I checked this translation and it only says speed of light, although an old Spanish translation also says that Seiya's attack is faster than light, maybe that was the original dialogue in that scene, but after Kurumada changed this dialogue in some new version of the Tomos.

Nebula chain can also apparently travel beyond time and space to attack someone (Don’t know why this is bought up more )

The Andromeda Chain is one of the examples that could be used for infinite speed and would make more sense than the examples used in the topic.

When he does so, it’s said that Shuras power is not that of a mortal. So, Shura must have been using godly power. and as for the time limit, even if they had been moving at Hypersonic speeds, the fight still shouldn’t have taken that long anyways. The fight only lasted a few exchange of blows and dialogue.

This means nothing, Roland also says that Shura's speed is not a human thing and in that scene he moves only at the speed of light.
Roland: この速さ 人間のモノではない!!! 剣の追尾ができぬッ!!

Spoiler

Shura himself indicates that he moved at the speed of light in that scene, that is why he mentions that even with the speed of light he could not block the second attack and that is why he awakens the 9th sense to overcome the speed of light. This means that he moved at the speed of light in the first attack.
Shura: 光速をもつてしても
Shura: 全迎撃は「不可能」

Spoiler

Shura only moves at a speed faster than light until he awakens the 9th sense in that scene.

 

[StekFence]

Bump

 

[StekFence]

Bump

 

[StekFence]

This is the reason why I consider that this example does not serve to indicate infinite speed in any way, since this attack was blocked with the speed of light.

It is true that in the manga it is different since some time ago I checked this translation and it only says speed of light, although an old Spanish translation also says that Seiya's attack is faster than light, maybe that was the original dialogue in that scene, but after Kurumada changed this dialogue in some new version of the Tomos.

The Andromeda Chain is one of the examples that could be used for infinite speed and would make more sense than the examples used in the topic.

This means nothing, Roland also says that Shura's speed is not a human thing and in that scene he moves only at the speed of light.
Roland: この速さ 人間のモノではない!!! 剣の追尾ができぬッ!!

Spoiler

Shura himself indicates that he moved at the speed of light in that scene, that is why he mentions that even with the speed of light he could not block the second attack and that is why he awakens the 9th sense to overcome the speed of light. This means that he moved at the speed of light in the first attack.
Shura: 光速をもつてしても
Shura: 全迎撃は「不可能」

Spoiler

Shura only moves at a speed faster than light until he awakens the 9th sense in that scene.

Literally every 7th sense char here is rated mftl+

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Literally every 7th sense char here is rated mftl+

Only when they go beyond their limit, this is not a normal speed, even for those who master that sense.

 

[StekFence]

Only when they go beyond their limit, this is not a normal speed, even for those who master that sense.

Make a crt. They are currently rated as normally scaling to mftl+ feats

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Make a crt. They are currently rated as normally scaling to mftl+ feats

This doesn't matter, because what is described in the Wiki doesn't affect the story, I explained it before, the Wiki may have versions of the protagonists with 7th Sense, but this doesn't mean that they master that sense in the story and start with that level of power in every fight in the series. In the series that speed is not something normal, that's why many times they are described as fighting at the speed of light and only in some special moments they can exceed that speed when their power exceeds its limit or they strive to use its maximum (which is sometimes described as a miracle in the series).

 

[GodlyCharmander]

2. Seiya is actually able to match Sigurds Danmaku, with his own. Sigurds Danmaku is described multiple times, as an Endless/Infinite rainDrops of projectiles. These attacks are described as “An attack of the Gods”

This was refuted, so you should really cross this out... Either way, even without the mistranslation, this just means endless as in "there is no end to it", it's never going to end as long as the attacker wishes so, it does not mean there's an infinite amount of projectiles coexisting when the attack starts, that don't make no sense, dawg.

So even without it, this is a no-no.

I will look more into it.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Given that infinite speed is faster than light, I don’t think Shura’s feat is debunked by him not saying “infinite speed”, that’s a very poor argument.

Yes it is. You don't describe something, let's say, 20x FTL as "faster than sound", that's redundant writing, Hasty.
In this case, it's INFINITELY redundant, "infinite attacks" can still mean just "attacks that never end", not "an infinite amount of attacks simultaneously."
An ACTUAL infinite amount of projectiles would, first, reach their target simultaneously from all directions with no openings, and fill an infinite amount of space.

Yeah, I disagree with this.

 

[Hasty12345]

Yes it is. You don't describe something, let's say, 20x FTL as "faster than sound", that's redundant writing, Hasty.
In this case, it's INFINITELY redundant, "infinite attacks" can still mean just "attacks that never end", not "an infinite amount of attacks simultaneously."
An ACTUAL infinite amount of projectiles would, first, reach their target simultaneously from all directions with no openings, and fill an infinite amount of space.

Yeah, I disagree with this.

I'll be sure to let the mangaka know to draw a literal infinite amount of fists if that's how he wants it to be interpreted.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I'll be sure to let the mangaka know to draw a literal infinite amount of fists if that's how he wants it to be interpreted.

If that's how he w-- You don't use a finite amout of speed for comparison if you want it to be infinite in any way shape or form, like period. If you want it to be interpreted as literally infinite in speed, or in quantity, you just make clear indications of that without any room for doubt. "Hey my infinite speed attack is faster than light" leaves room for doubt.

Infinite attacks meaning something as "a gun with infinite bullets" rather than "a gun that shoots infinite bullets at once" makes more sense imo.

 

[StekFence]

was refuted, so you should really cross this out..

my bad

 

[GodlyCharmander]

my bad

It's fine, it wasn't with bad intent. I will look more into the arguments from both sides, I'm leaning towards neutral on some of these points.

 

[StekFence]

"infinite attacks" can still mean just "attacks that never end", not "an infinite amount of attacks simultaneously."

In this context, Shura or Saga(dunno which is talking here), Is saying that An infinite amount has Already surroundEd him. Therefore, Using a meaning that suggests never ending, would make no sense.

 

[StekFence]

This doesn't matter, because what is described in the Wiki doesn't affect the story,

It does effect the crt tho. If your argument pertains to gold Saints needing some complete extra effort to surpass ftl, then it has to have a crt, because this crt uses the wikis current view, which is that they can reach MFTL speeds with minimal effort.

 

[StekFence]

Infinite attacks meaning something as "a gun with infinite bullets" rather than "a gun that shoots infinite bullets at once" makes more sense imo.

I disagree, the statements says that the Amount of the attacks is infinite. Therefore, the amount of projectiles around shura is Infinite. Saying the gun has infinite bullets would not make sense in the context of attacks already released. In this context, you are being shot with infinite bullets.

 

[StekFence]

This means nothing, Roland also says that Shura's speed is not a human thing and in that scene he moves only at the speed of light.
Roland: この速さ 人間のモノではない!!! 剣の追尾ができぬッ!!

Spoiler

Shura himself indicates that he moved at the speed of light in that scene, that is why he mentions that even with the speed of light he could not block the second attack and that is why he awakens the 9th sense to overcome the speed of light. This means that he moved at the speed of light in the first attack.
Shura: 光速をもつてしても
Shura: 全迎撃は「不可能」

Spoiler

Shura only moves at a speed faster than light until he awakens the 9th sense in that scene.

No. Rolands statement is the irrelevant one. This shura has only the skills,stats, and memories of his G Self, With No 9th sense. By surpassing the speed of light, he’s already blitzing Roland. Roland saying it’s beyond human speed is meaningless because it’s pretty obvious roland is slow, and humans power is established to be the 8th sense. the next further would be the 9th sense:The power of the Gods.

 

[StekFence]

Meanwhile, an actual GOD is saying that Shuras movements are beyond humans. Who’s gonna be more accurate in that department, A GOD. Or a guy getting blitzed by FTL.

 

[StekFence]

It's fine, it wasn't with bad intent. I will look more into the arguments from both sides, I'm leaning towards neutral on some of these points.

So could I put u down as neutral?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

It does effect the crt tho. If your argument pertains to gold Saints needing some complete extra effort to surpass ftl, then it has to have a crt, because this crt uses the wikis current view, which is that they can reach MFTL speeds with minimal effort.

The purpose of this topic is to add a new power or ability to a character, so this should be based on those described in the series. If the series says the character is moving at the speed of light, the rest is not important, unless you have an official source that says the character is moving at a higher speed at that time. You must show where it is said to exceed the speed of light in that scene and where it is said to be a normal speed for a Gold Saint in the official franchise material.

No. Rolands statement is the irrelevant one. This shura has only the skills,stats, and memories of his G Self, With No 9th sense. By surpassing the speed of light, he’s already blitzing Roland. Roland saying it’s beyond human speed is meaningless because it’s pretty obvious roland is slow, and humans power is established to be the 8th sense. the next further would be the 9th sense:The power of the Gods.

This is never stated in the story and literally Roland himself clearly states that Shura's speed is not a human thing in that scene, even though he was moving at the speed of light. In that scene of the Requiem itself, it is stated that Shura was moving at the speed of light at the time and only until he awakens the 9th sense does he exceed the speed of light.

 

[StekFence]

unless you have an official source that says the character is moving at a higher speed at that time.

The roland scan u sent literally has shura saying Golds Far surpass SoL

 

[StekFence]

This is never stated in the story

Can u clarify what is never stated?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

So could I put u down as neutral?

I disagree as of now. I am reconsidering looking at both arguments.

 

[StekFence]

Aight

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

The roland scan u sent literally has shura saying Golds Far surpass SoL

No, it literally says that the speed limit of a Gold Saints is the speed of light (黄金聖闘士の最高速度は光速).

Spoiler

In another scene of that fight it is also said that Shura was moving at the speed of light (光速移動).

Spoiler

In that fight, Shura only surpasses the speed of light in his last attack, when he burns all his cosmos to the maximum and achieves a miracle.

 

[FanSyst]

Meanwhile, an actual GOD is saying that Shuras movements are beyond humans. Who’s gonna be more accurate in that department, A GOD. Or a guy getting blitzed by FTL.

I think you are overthinking it. The statement is quite explicit.

 

[StekFence]

Roland isn’t very reliable on the speed of gods, when compared To an actual god. It’s basic.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

This does not change that in the story itself the movement at the speed of light is described as more than that of a human (even various gods such as giants and other gods cannot move at that speed), and in that scene it is also indicated that Shura was moving at the speed of light and only exceeds this speed until he activates the 9th sense. The speed of light has always been the average speed that a Gold Saint can reach (without going to the maximum or with a power up) in in the story or franchise.