Saint Seiya Infinite Speed Upgrade

[Confluctor]

Hmm

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

wait wait. Your telling me. That a number being described as Numerous debunks it being called, Infinite in number. I will remind you that Infinite is kinda a lot. Just kinda tho.

The description of the technique itself changes in a later scene, this means that the first description was exaggerated or simply wrong, since it is only description given by a character who does not have time to count all the attacks, so this indicates that the first description is just a hyperbole and really the amount of attacks in that technique is not specific or infinite, they are simply many attacks and that's it. Something that fits well with what the author shows in that scene, where really the attack is not represented as infinite and is simply a continuous attack that covers a fairly small area, which can even be countered with a move with a range of a few meters.

The difference is Shura does not specialize in spamming as many attacks as possible. Seiya does. Logically, Seiyas attack that works by spamming projectiles, is going to counter another similar attack, by spamming projectiles. It’s not like shura, who just cleaves through shit because that’s how his attacks work.

No, Shura specializes in performing multiple cuts with his technique (this is something that can be seen in his fight against Shiryu or when he attacks Aiolos in Zero), even one of his special attacks (Dance Excalibur) consists in giving multiple cuts, since he is a completely physical warrior and does not have much range, in contrast to Seiya who although he is also a physical warrior is even more specialized in energy attacks than Shura himself and his blows can create explosions generating a big crater on the ground, even Shoko, who also uses Seiya's techniques because they had the same master, creates a big energy explosion of planetary scale with her Ryusei Ken when she and Athena attack Eris in the final battle. So he doesn't need to hit the same amount of times to block his opponent's attack and only needs an attack with more power and range than his opponent.

First of all, the statement for Sigurd sword is, for his sword. As Shura Controls Sigurd sword, he is capable of whatever Sigurd is, Here.

Shura never uses that ability in the manga and each character has his own abilities, even if Seiya wears the same Cloth as Sagittarius, it doesn't mean he gets the same abilities as Aiolos.

Ye I’m aware, I’m just saying. We Have God level characters Countering what’s stated to be Infinite amounts of Projectiles by spamming Danmaku very fast for one scan, we Have God level characters being directly stated to have infinite amounts of the Speed increasing power source, and we have a god level character countering an infinite amount of projectiles For another scan.

Rivals who are no stronger than a Gold Saint at the level you want to believe and are pathetic compared to an Olympic God who are the strongest among the gods, and even a god like Poseidon was impressed with Seiya's speed when he surpassed the speed of light when he destroyed the Main Pillar of his Temple.

In addition, the Gods are contextually Way faster then Gold Saints, who throw 100 million blows a second, so infinite blows would actually fit the story well.

This only applies to the Olympic Gods, who are considered the greatest of all the gods and the only one that transcends them is Chronos, and gods of the level of Hypnos and Thanatos, two of the most powerful gods of the entire franchise, any of these gods are much more powerful than the characters of the examples you place in this topic. The rest of the gods are not much stronger than the Gold Saints, even several gods in this franchise are on their level and many of them can be fought by the Golden Saints. Even the power of the twelve Gold Saints together is greater than that of Athena, one of the most powerful gods in the entire franchise.

In addition, the gods such as Athena, Poseidon and Hades have never been noted for great speed that overwhelms or surpasses that of their rivals; these gods only stand out for their great power in comparison to their rivals.

About the multi posting, sorry, and I do think it does seem infinite. Gods are stated to transcend humans, have encompassed the universe which I believe is Infinite in size, mastered the cosmo, which can create infinite power at its peak, are stated to have infinite amounts of this cosmo, which again, buffs ap and speed. There’s some other stuff I think, but I’m not 100% sure if it’s reliable yet

This is something completely different from what you state at the beginning of the topic. And it just goes to show that this topic is wrong from the beginning.

Also, a Goddess in ss was killed by flames that were directly powered by infinite amounts of malicious feelings, which means infinite power is needed to contend with a god. So The statement of infinite Cosmos does have further backing.

No, it was only the flames of karma whose power is increased by the malice of humans on Earth and Saori's body was only destroyed because Seiya lost faith in the goddess. The malice of humans on Earth is not infinite, and much less the flames that only encompass a planet like Earth.

We Have A statement that would give Infinite Speed and Ap. We know for certain that the Ap part is true. Therefore, the Speed part must also be true. You can’t even say the statement was unreliable, given it’s said by a Goddess. Either the whole statement is correct, or it’s just flat out wrong. The Ap and Speed are connected. Rises in one stat gives a rise in others. That’s how saint seiya works.
The Gods canonically have Infinite attack potency, they canonically have Infinite Cosmo, which is the source of the Infinite AP. Therefore, they must also have the other effects infinite cosmo would give, such as Infinite Durability, which they do have on our profiles for them, and must also have Infinite speed. You physically cannot have an increase in attack power without an equal increase in speed in saint seiya, if the Ap increase is via Cosmo.
Again, We also Have God Cloth seiya(who has infinite cosmo) Matching a stated Infinite Danmaku by spamming his own. We have 9th sense Shura(Also Infinite Cosmos) intercepting Infinite attacks as well.

This is not how the power scale of the characters works and power does not multiply in this way, if this were so many characters would have an AP just because their energy is described as infinite.

Having an infinite amount of energy does not grant that level of AP. The AP of the most powerful gods is universal and this is a scale that only applies to these characters, but they never describe in any occasion that their speed was infinite and they never insinuate anything like that, even Seiya with a bigger cosmos than Athena and Poseidon is described that he had begun to travel at a speed superior to the light, they never describe anything about infinite speed in that scene.

They never intercepted any attack with infinite speed and it doesn't work that way either.

---

Each gods encompass an entire universe?

Also believe? Is the universe not infinite in the first place?

This is the scene it describes.

There is also another scene where the soul of a god like Hades is described as a universe, although I don't know if this example serves the purpose of the topic.

Spoiler

In any case, these two characters are much more powerful than those described in the example he posted in the first post of this topic.

 

[StekFence]

The AP of the most powerful gods is universal

Even Thanatos is Low Multi.

 

[StekFence]

Shura never uses that ability in the manga and each character has his own abilities, even if Seiya wears the same Cloth as Sagittarius, it doesn't mean he gets the same abilities as Aiolos.

The difference is, He controls all holy swords, he’s said to have made them his servants, and he has called on other holy swords powers, so it’s very reasonable he has Sigurds. The infinite projectiles statement directly comes from the Sword, which is what Shura controls

 

[StekFence]

Rivals who are no stronger than a Gold Saint at the level you want to believe a

I’m sorry, but who are you referring to?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Even Thanatos is Low Multi.

Thanatos is one of the most powerful gods to appear in this franchise. That's a problem with how old the profiles are and how little updated they are, but even Hades' profile description only gives as an example for his AP, the fact that he created three universes (Underworld, Elysion and Superdimension) in an unknown period of time. The example you use only describes that Poseidon's cosmos was almost as huge as the universe.

The difference is, He controls all holy swords, he’s said to have made them his servants, and he has called on other holy swords powers, so it’s very reasonable he has Sigurds. The infinite projectiles statement directly comes from the Sword, which is what Shura controls

He only controls the swords, not the abilities and powers of the gladiators, using a weapon does not guarantee that he will obtain the same abilities as another character with the same weapon, since the ability of each warrior using a weapon is different. This is the example I mentioned, if Seiya wears the Sagittarius Cloth it does not mean that he automatically obtains the abilities of the Saint who wore that armor, even when these armors retain part of the cosmos and essence of their their former user.

I’m sorry, but who are you referring to?

The level of an average Gold Saint within his rank.

 

[StekFence]

Thanatos is one of the most powerful gods to appear in this franchise.

I mean, as far as the people within his general ap range go, he’s not really that strong. I listed all the characters who were effected by this crt via being god tiers, and of Abzu,Shun,Apollo,Artemis,Athena,Chronos,Cronos,Hyoga,Shiryu,Shoko,Eris,Gaia,Hades,Hypnos,Regulus,Lucifer,Mars(?),Yoma,Koga,Seiya,Tenma,Abel,Ikki,Pontos,Poseidon,Saturn,Tartarus,Thanatos,Typhon,Your Anus,Rhadamanthys, and Zeus, literally the only ones who may be weaker are G Titans, Mars and Shoko, and that’s purely cos I dunno there scaling well.

 

[StekFence]

The description of the technique itself changes in a later scene, this means that the first description was exaggerated or simply wrong, since it is only description given by a character who does not have time to count all the attacks, so this indicates that the first description is just a hyperbole and really the amount of attacks in that technique is not specific or infinite, they are simply many attacks and that's it.

I disagree, as it basically goes like this, “My sword releases Infinite shooting stars”, and later goes, “You cant do anything to my many shooting stars”. These statements are not contradictory to one another, and both statements are said by Sigurd, so I would believe both. Bu the only way both are true is if the sword releases infinite projectiles.

 

[StekFence]

So he doesn't need to hit the same amount of times to block his opponent's attack and only needs an attack with more power and range than his opponent.

The explosions created in the scene were caused by Seiyas attacks clashing with Sigurds. Therefore, Seiya must have sent out a comparable amount, as otherwise we wouldn’t get this. The explosions created were only around the size of the head of the meteors, and the meteors themselves were not much bigger then Sigurds shooting stars. Although, I wouldn’t put much belief in the visuals, as there’s only a few hundred projectiles max shown, when we know the amount is supposed to be much bigger.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I mean, as far as the people within his general ap range go, he’s not really that strong. I listed all the characters who were effected by this crt via being god tiers, and of Abzu,Shun,Apollo,Artemis,Athena,Chronos,Cronos,Hyoga,Shiryu,Shoko,Eris,Gaia,Hades,Hypnos,Regulus,Lucifer,Mars(?),Yoma,Koga,Seiya,Tenma,Abel,Ikki,Pontos,Poseidon,Saturn,Tartarus,Thanatos,Typhon,Your Anus,Rhadamanthys, and Zeus, literally the only ones who may be weaker are Mars and Shoko, and that’s purely cos I dunno there scaling well.

This does not change that it is much stronger than the characters in the examples you grant at the beginning of this topic.

I disagree, as it basically goes like this, “My sword releases Infinite shooting stars”, and later goes, “You cant do anything to my many shooting stars”. These statements are not contradictory to one another, and both statements are said by Sigurd, so I would believe both. Bu the only way both are true is if the sword releases infinite projectiles.

In a later scene he only describes that they are numerous, he never gives any description as infinite, this only reaffirms that the first description was only a hyperbole and also in the second description it is said that it is a continuous attack, it does not mean that they are that amount of attacks at the same time, a gun with infinite bullets does not mean that it fires an infinite amount of bullets at the same time.

 

[StekFence]

a gun with infinite bullets does not mean that it fires an infinite amount of bullets at the same time.

It’s specified that the infinite projectiles come out when he snaps his sword, which is whenever he attacks.

 

[StekFence]

In a later scene he only describes that they are numerous, he never gives any description as infinite, this only reaffirms that the first description was only a hyperbole

The 2 statements are easy to put together. Yes, he says his sword spews out a crap ton of stars in one scene, but he also said it spits out infinite amounts. These statements reconcile very easily, as infinite would be many,numerous, and even countless sometimes. These are all similar words

 

[StekFence]

This is something completely different from what you state at the beginning of the topic. And it just goes to show that this topic is wrong from the beginning.

This was literally a defense of God cloths needing inf cosmo, which is 1/3 of my whole crt

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

The explosions created in the scene were caused by Seiyas attacks clashing with Sigurds. Therefore, Seiya must have sent out a comparable amount, as otherwise we wouldn’t get this. The explosions created were only around the size of the head of the meteors, and the meteors themselves were not much bigger then Sigurds shooting stars. Although, I wouldn’t put much belief in the visuals, as there’s only a few hundred projectiles max shown, when we know the amount is supposed to be much bigger.

Each meteor is much larger than the water needles in Sigurd's attack and we literally see an explosion at the moment of meteor impact, so this is not important and Seiya simply uses an attack with superior range and destructive power to stop that technique.

The 2 statements are easy to put together. Yes, he says his sword spews out a crap ton of stars in one scene, but he also said it spits out infinite amounts. These statements reconcile very easily, as infinite would be many,numerous, and even countless sometimes. These are all similar words

It’s specified that the infinite projectiles come out when he snaps his sword, which is whenever he attacks.

In the second description, it literally describes that it is only a continuous attack, so he is not firing that amount at the same time and he is only performing a continuous attack of numerous needles at the same time, just because he can use his sword to fire countless needles, does not mean he fires that amount at the same time. The example of the gun with infinite bullets is perfect to explain why this is wrong.

 

[StekFence]

No, it was only the flames of karma whose power is increased by the malice of humans on Earth and Saori's body was only destroyed because Seiya lost faith in the goddess. The malice of humans on Earth is not infinite, and much less the flames that only encompass a planet like Earth.

The translation I’m looking at says the malice was Limitless. the reason saori finally died was indeed because he lost faith, but that was because there was nothing to counteract the flames

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

This was literally a defense of God cloths needing inf cosmo, which is 1/3 of my whole crt

No, this only happens in the Hades Arc, and it is never described what is necessary to awaken this Cloth, for example in the case of Tenma in TLC he never describes an infinite cosmos and only asks his soul to transform into a Cloth, even he recovers his energy at that moment, which indicates that he had no strength before obtaining this Cloth. In the Hades Arc with those Cloth were strong enough to fight with Hypnos and Thanatos, even killed these gods, and fought Hades to his maximum, something that was not seen again in any manga of the franchise and competes with Eris to be the most powerful enemy of this part of the franchise.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

if you want to take a deep dive into the Karmic rain is Buddhist related thing. Taking in human negative Karma which is actually infinite because its karma from every iteration of that being from past to future even in the whole reincarnation cycle. but that should be related to its potency not speed. but im not sure what scene were talking about.

 

[StekFence]

Each meteor is much larger than the water needles in Sigurd's attack and we literally see an explosion at the moment of meteor impact, so this is not important and Seiya simply uses an attack with superior range and destructive power to stop that technique.

Not really, while they are several times bigger I admit, it still is relative to the amount of rain Sigurd sent. Therefore, it must be some degree of similar attack speed to the sword.

 

[StekFence]

No, this only happens in the Hades Arc, and it is never described what is necessary to awaken this Cloth, for example in the case of Tenma in TLC he never describes an infinite cosmos and only asks his soul to transform into a Cloth, even he recovers his energy at that moment, which indicates that he had no strength before obtaining this Cloth. In the Hades Arc with those Cloth were strong enough to fight with Hypnos and Thanatos, even killed these gods, and fought Hades to his maximum, something that was not seen again in any manga of the franchise and competes with Eris to be the most powerful enemy of this part of the franchise.

But the Hades arc is the primary canon when compared to tlc.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

The translation I’m looking at says the malice was Limitless. the reason saori finally died was indeed because he lost faith, but that was because there was nothing to counteract the flames

It's just the malice of humans, this is not infinite in any way, humans are not even infinite on this planet, and the flames just started to cover the planet slowly, and in the end it is described that what caused the flames to burn Saori's body was that Seiya lost faith in the goddess.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Why is Athena dying to the flames important?

 

[StekFence]

uh, it was intended to support infinite ap gods

 

[StekFence]

But I suppose that doesn’t really matter as it’s kinda a forgone conclusion

 

[StekFence]

This is not how the power scale of the characters works and power does not multiply in this way, if this were so many characters would have an AP just because their energy is described as infinite.

Having an infinite amount of energy does not grant that level of AP. The AP of the most powerful gods is universal and this is a scale that only applies to these characters, but they never describe in any occasion that their speed was infinite and they never insinuate anything like that, even Seiya with a bigger cosmos than Athena and Poseidon is described that he had begun to travel at a speed superior to the light, they never describe anything about infinite speed in that scene.

They never intercepted any attack with infinite speed and it doesn't work that way either.

This is what I really want to discuss.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

But the Hades arc is the primary canon when compared to tlc.

This is not the primary canon, because it is not written by Kurumada, which is the main canon of this franchise.

Not really, while they are several times bigger I admit, it still is relative to the amount of rain Sigurd sent. Therefore, it must be some degree of similar attack speed to the sword.

No, we can literally see how the meteors are larger and produce an explosion on impact, which creates a wall of fire or energy in front of it. So it doesn't need an equal amount of attacks, it just needs a more powerful attack with a greater range, which the meteor does.

Spoiler

Why is Athena dying to the flames important?

I don't know, he mentioned it in one of his examples.

 

[StekFence]

This is not the primary canon, because it is not written by Kurumada, which is the main canon of this franchise.

The Hades arc wasn’t written by Kuru?

 

[StekFence]

No, we can literally see how the meteors are larger and produce an explosion on impact, which creates a wall of fire or energy in front of it. So it doesn't need an equal amount of attacks, it just needs a more powerful attack with a greater range, which the meteor does.

The wall doesn’t block anything tho. It’s the projectiles themselves clashing that makes explosions

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

The Hades arc wasn’t written by Kuru?

Your example uses a work that is not written by Kurumada.

 

[StekFence]

my example is literally ripped from the Hades Saga

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

The wall doesn’t block anything tho. It’s the projectiles themselves clashing that makes explosions

No, we can even see the same explosions when the meteors are hitting Sigurd, so this is just the power of the impact of Seiya's technique, which as I said has a great power and range to overcome this technique, so he doesn't need the same amount of hits, he just needs a more powerful attack with a better range.

my example is literally ripped from the Hades Saga

Your example at the beginning of the topic, uses scenes from Assassin (a manga written by Okada), not the classic manga, and this just shows that your topic is poorly developed.

 

[StekFence]

the specific example i was referring too, would obviously be the scan of Athena talking to seiya. Not the G ones.

No, we can even see the same explosions when the meteors are hitting Sigurd, so this is just the power of the impact of Seiya's technique, which as I said has a great power and range to overcome this technique, so he doesn't need the same amount of hits, he just needs a more powerful attack with a better range.

Your example at the beginning of the topic, uses scenes from Assassin (a manga written by Okada), not the classic manga, and this just shows that your topic is poorly developed.

 

[StekFence]

and in this case, you are saying that tlc contradicts the classic, which doesn’t matter, as you would go with classic in this case anyway, as the classic is 99% canon to G-verses.

 

[StekFence]

With one of the biggest differences being kanon surviving, so he can do like, 4 things and talk.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

and in this case, you are saying that tlc contradicts the classic, which doesn’t matter, as you would go with classic in this case anyway, as the classic is 99% canon to G-verses.

No, since Assassin takes place in an alternate timeline and literally Seiya himself indicates that he is weakened in that scene and cannot fight as before because of Hades' curse, which in this universe works in a different way, and in this manga we could even see God Saint so pathetically weak that they were torn apart by a god in a human body. The God Cloth does not have the golden tonality (this tonality only appears for one second in the last attack) as in the canon. This is similar to TLC, which also takes into account some events from the classic manga. So this is no different.

Literally, Seiya in the Hades Arc is much stronger than any of the characters you mention in your arguments in this topic, so he doesn't work in any way in any of those examples. That's why he fought against three of the most powerful gods that have appeared in the manga of this franchise, and they fought against Hades at their maximum power.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

i am speechless at the reaching to attempt to delegitimize cross scaling, and the headcannon attempt to believe the series is separate from everything else.....
when we have author statements to direct references of events from previous works happening in the same universe

AP is irrelevant to this thread.... so why is it still being brought up..??

but there is so much going on this thread and multiposting its making it hard to keep track of what all is going on..

 

[Hasty12345]

I've lost brain cells reading these arguments.

The crt has been rejected.

This can be closed.

 

[StekFence]

I’m too tired for this anymore, ye I agree it can be closed.

 

[batmanfanboy667]

cool thx.

mY bad

i love saint seya

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

This is not important, because a later scene changes the description and now the character only says that there are many, the term narrative hyporbole applies perfectly in that example, since it is only vague description and there is nothing to indicate that they are really infinite attacks.

In the Japanese manga it just says many or numerous (数多).

For example, in fiction you can find several characters who claim to move at the speed of lightning or the light speed, but they are rejected in the Wiki, because they do not meet the standard of such speed and it seems that their description is just a hyperbole, and this case seems somewhat similar.

Shura stops the first attack with the speed of light, which is the standard speed of a Gold Saint in this franchise, so they don't need infinite speed to block an attack with that description.

The franchise has some examples that might indicate infinite speed for some characters, but the example given in the topic is too vague and even contradicts itself within the story itself.

The God Cloths in the manga are golden (this is the franchise's canon shade for these armors), the Golden God Cloth does not exist in the main universe of Saint Seiya.

The Marines like Bian are described with a speed close to the speed of light, not with the speed of light, this is one of the reasons why the Gold Saints are superior.

Marines (near light speed) < Gold Saints (speed of light and can be increased when they go to the maximum or when they reach a miracle) / Various Gods < 8th sense users (probably even higher, because it is a power that the gods do not possess and is the ultimate sense in the manga) < Poseidon (or Olympic Gods in a human body) < God Saints (Hades Arc) and Gods like Hypnos and Thanatos < Olympic Gods to the maximum < Hades, Athena, Zeus and Poseidon to the maximum < Saori to the maximum (she has the potential to be more powerful than the mythological Athena) < Eris with power ups / Chronos.

---

Bem, vou expandir este comentário. Os Cavaleiros de Ouro começam com a velocidade da luz, essa é a velocidade padrão desses personagens, embora eles possam aumentar essa velocidade através de seu cosmos ao máximo ou o que às vezes pode ser descrito como um milagre na própria franquia.

Ulisses descreve a velocidade dos Cavaleiros de Ouro como a velocidade da luz.

Spoiler

Os golpes de Caim e Kaiser são descritos como tendo a velocidade da luz.

Spoiler

Em muitas lutas é descrito que os Cavaleiros de Ouro estão lutando na velocidade da luz. Nesta cena de Assassin, é descrito que o limite de velocidade de um Cavaleiro de Ouro é a velocidade da luz (黄金聖闘士の最高速度は光速).

Spoiler

The Gold Saints can exceed that speed, but it's not a regular occurrence and only tends to happen in a few specific moments when they are at the peak of their abilities (sometimes described as a miracle in this franchise).

Your argument sounds good, I disagree with this topic.

 

[Lynieryz]

This is not important, because a later scene changes the description and now the character only says that there are many, the term narrative hyporbole applies perfectly in that example, since it is only vague description and there is nothing to indicate that they are really infinite attacks.

In the Japanese manga it just says many or numerous (数多).

For example, in fiction you can find several characters who claim to move at the speed of lightning or the light speed, but they are rejected in the Wiki, because they do not meet the standard of such speed and it seems that their description is just a hyperbole, and this case seems somewhat similar.

Shura stops the first attack with the speed of light, which is the standard speed of a Gold Saint in this franchise, so they don't need infinite speed to block an attack with that description.

The franchise has some examples that might indicate infinite speed for some characters, but the example given in the topic is too vague and even contradicts itself within the story itself.

The God Cloths in the manga are golden (this is the franchise's canon shade for these armors), the Golden God Cloth does not exist in the main universe of Saint Seiya.

The Marines like Bian are described with a speed close to the speed of light, not with the speed of light, this is one of the reasons why the Gold Saints are superior.

Marines (near light speed) < Gold Saints (speed of light and can be increased when they go to the maximum or when they reach a miracle) / Various Gods < 8th sense users (probably even higher, because it is a power that the gods do not possess and is the ultimate sense in the manga) < Poseidon (or Olympic Gods in a human body) < God Saints (Hades Arc) and Gods like Hypnos and Thanatos < Olympic Gods to the maximum < Hades, Athena, Zeus and Poseidon to the maximum < Saori to the maximum (she has the potential to be more powerful than the mythological Athena) < Eris with power ups / Chronos.

---

Well, I will expand on this comment. The Golden Saints start with the speed of light, this is the standard speed of these characters, although they can increase this speed through their cosmos to the maximum or what could sometimes be described as a miracle in the franchise itself.

Odysseus describes the speed of the Gold Saints as the speed of light.

Spoiler

Cain and Kaiser's blows are described as having the speed of light.

Spoiler

In many fights it is described that the Gold Saints are fighting at the speed of light. In this scene from Assassin, it is described that the speed limit of a Gold Saints is the speed of light (黄金聖闘士の最高速度は光速).

Spoiler

The Gold Saints can exceed that speed, but it's not a regular occurrence and only tends to happen in a few specific moments when they are at the peak of their abilities (sometimes described as a miracle in this franchise).

Your argument sounds bad, I agree with this topic.