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Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)

Does it really fit the bill for Low 2-C? Afaik tier 2 starts at completely erasing a universe space-time and all. Taken literally from the visuals where even the planets created and then destroyed aren't completely erased and just dispersed into still visible pieces it looks like a clear 3-A.
 
When shaka first uses the attack, it shows a panel of many animals from prehistoric times, and they slowly get more and more advanced. So him manifesting the birth of a universe seems to also involve some sort of time.
 
Now that I think about it, that logic alone prob doesn’t make it low 2-C. I guess the fact that Agyo creates a big bang is what makes it Low 2-C. Ugyo def would not be Low 2-C unless you scale it to Agyo and consider it low 2-c
 
Yeah though I do see your point about the lifeforms advancing upon closer inspection of the panel but I've read that there's a distinction for Tier 2 universal creation made between creating the entire continuum and kickstarting it (with only the former being Tier 2), I'd assume Agyo's the latter comparing it to what Ugyo was capable of
 
SSJGeminiJJ said:
Maybe it's just the universe from that time period or something? The Ugyo's destruction looks like texbook 3-A
Click to expand...
That's taking too much extrapolation just to lowball.

It's using buddhist concepts as a measuring stick here. Not agyo or unagyo the name bit instead the idea of Samsara. Which as Shaka explained in the classic even universes are subjected to the cycle of samsara In other words this is likely a Conceptual Manipulation feat, or a causality manipulation feat where their accelerating the action effects of Samsara on universes.
 
I have no idea about any of that, but does the destruction caused by Ugyo depicted in the panel not look 3-A to you? That doesn't take any extra extrapolation to see
 
Could do the bare minimum and just show all the matter getting poofed, at least planets being completely destroyed beyond beig busted into visible chunks like the panel clearly shows which confirms it's 3-A destruction
 
The effect of an attack demonstrably not even properly wiping out all matter to even non visible parts without any other elaboration doesn't confirm it to be tier 3?
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I don’t see people using these arguments against the BoG feat, I guess that’s just a typical dragon ball double standard.
 
It might just be because that feat and this aren't really that easily comparable in the first place, though you're free to take that up on a DB thread where it'd actually be on topic.
 
I am confused you’re saying it’s 3-A despite claiming it’s just an illusion on CV, but I do like this change of heart you’ve had, for better or for worse.
 
You'll notice that in my first comment replying to that topic started I went out of my way to start it with "taken literally from the visuals" almost as if I don't actually inherently agree with doing that in general, but since that panel was what the user who posted it was using as the metric for whether it's Tier 2, I just pointed out how even if so it still doesn't place it at that level.
 
Karma does involve universes as Unshakeable said, so if Shaka is manifesting the birth if a whole new universe, and his technique replicates the karmic cycle, it should be Low 2-C
 
The birth of the universe is just one event in history though, not the entire cycle. There’s nothing that suggests the Agyo creates the entire past present future in a singular space-time expansion (as is cited as the criteria for Low 2-C creation on the Big Bang page), and it’s matched by a very explicitly represented as 3-A attack based on the visual. The death of the universe Ugyo symbolizes also seems to be treated as some natural event in verse, so the fact that the two techniques separately symbolize two different singular events in time/history as opposed to the entire continuum (otherwise Agyo at least would have both going for it) just comes off as another reason they aren’t Tier 2.
 
SSJGeminiJJ said:
The birth of the universe is just one event in history though, not the entire cycle. There’s nothing that suggests the Agyo creates the entire past present future in a singular space-time expansion (as is cited as the criteria for Low 2-C creation on the Big Bang page), and it’s matched by a very explicitly represented as 3-A attack based on the visual. The death of the universe Ugyo symbolizes also seems to be treated as some natural event in verse, so the fact that the two techniques separately symbolize two different singular events in time/history as opposed to the entire continuum (otherwise Agyo at least would have both going for it) just comes off as another reason they aren’t Tier 2.
Click to expand...
This is assuming Karma doesn't also account for the space-time of a universe.
 
I’m not sure I follow as to how Karma relates to the birth and death of the universe. Though the panel’s coined with a term for the cycle of reincarnation and life and death in general which also ties into how Agyo and Ugyo symbolize the two separate sides of it.
 
SSJGeminiJJ said:
I’m not sure I follow as to how Karma relates to the birth and death of the universe. Though the panel’s coined with a term for the cycle of reincarnation and life and death in general which also ties into how Agyo and Ugyo symbolize the two separate sides of it.
Click to expand...
Karma is the reason Samsara exist. It's the driving force behind Samsara.

Agyo and unagyo on Buddhism actually isn't anything special. SS made it special though by applying its own logic to it.
 
SSJGeminiJJ said:
I’m not sure I follow as to how Karma relates to the birth and death of the universe. Though the panel’s coined with a term for the cycle of reincarnation and life and death in general which also ties into how Agyo and Ugyo symbolize the two separate sides of it.
Click to expand...
Karma envelops the beginning and the death of universes. Universes began with a Big Bang that according to both Episode G and Omega created time. So Karma enveloping the BB would include a temporal dimension, hence Low 2-C.
 
AlexZiggy said:
Karma envelops the beginning and the death of universes. Universes began with a Big Bang that according to both Episode G and Omega created time. So Karma enveloping the BB would include a temporal dimension, hence Low 2-C.
Click to expand...
That doesn’t remotely sound like how I’ve seen Karma taken to mean traditionally, but even if so, where does it indicate that Agyo symbolizes the entire Karmic Cycle? If that were the case the separation between Agyo and Ugyo representing life and death individually would be quite redundant, because from what you say Karma supposedly envelops it all.

The explanation given to the Big Bang in Kurumada’s series was quite different and says it dispersed the matter of the universe across space from a single mass. And again, it was matched by Ugyo, a very blatantly 3-A attack from the visual.
 
SSJGeminiJJ said:
That doesn’t remotely sound like how I’ve seen Karma taken to mean traditionally, but even if so, where does it indicate that Agyo symbolizes the entire Karmic Cycle? If that were the case the separation between Agyo and Ugyo representing life and death individually would be quite redundant, because from what you say Karma supposedly envelops it all.

The explanation given to the Big Bang in Kurumada’s series was quite different and says it dispersed the matter of the universe across space from a single mass. And again, it was matched by Ugyo, a very blatantly 3-A attack from the visual.
Click to expand...
That's how the traditional big bang was believed to be before cosmic inflation theory became public

Also, agyo and unagyo together created Samsara as one was "creation" the other "destruction."
 
SSJGeminiJJ said:
That doesn’t remotely sound like how I’ve seen Karma taken to mean traditionally, but even if so, where does it indicate that Agyo symbolizes the entire Karmic Cycle? If that were the case the separation between Agyo and Ugyo representing life and death individually would be quite redundant, because from what you say Karma supposedly envelops it all.

The explanation given to the Big Bang in Kurumada’s series was quite different and says it dispersed the matter of the universe across space from a single mass. And again, it was matched by Ugyo, a very blatantly 3-A attack from the visual.
Click to expand...
Saint Seiya has taken various liberties in regards to how it chooses to present its mythological and religious elements. If Buddhism in StS was accurate we would have Low 1-C Nirvana at the lowest. Beyond that, my argument wasn't that Agyo replicates the entire Karmic cycle, merely the birth of a single universe, which is a BB that creates time, thus qualifying for Low 2-C.

Kurumada states in chapter 1 that the Big Bang gave birth to all matter true. It doesnt outright exclude the temporal axis of the universe from the Big Bang.
 
Well, from my understanding of the Big Bang page for this wiki, a tier 2 Big Bang tends to be a creative expansion of reality/space-time. That sounds completely different in nature to what's depicted in chapter 1 where you can even see it visualized that it's the matter that galaxies and nebulas were comprised of getting blown across space through a destructive explosion and I don't see how a destructive explosion that effectively destroyed and blew an object (the condensed mass) apart as it's method of "creation" could have creating some temporal axis applied to it. Even the page notes the distinction between the nature of SS fits the bill for and what the standard for a Low 2-C Big Bang is and this is why this type of thing is often defaulted to 3-A.
vsbattles.fandom.com

Big Bang

To quote from Wikipedia: "The Big Bang is the cosmological model of the universe, originally conceived to describe its origins, that is best supported by all cosmological observations. The essential idea is that the universe has expanded from a primordial hot and dense initial condition at some...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
Within fiction, a Big Bang is usually portrayed as a massive release of energy, instead of an expansion of space-time itself.
Click to expand...
 
SSJGeminiJJ said:
Well, from my understanding of the Big Bang page for this wiki, a tier 2 Big Bang tends to be a creative expansion of reality/space-time. That sounds completely different in nature to what's depicted in chapter 1 where you can even see it visualized that it's the matter that galaxies and nebulas were comprised of getting blown across space through a destructive explosion and I don't see how a destructive explosion that effectively destroyed and blew an object (the condensed mass) apart as it's method of "creation" could have creating some temporal axis applied to it. Even the page notes the distinction between the nature of SS fits the bill for and what the standard for a Low 2-C Big Bang is and this is why this type of thing is often defaulted to 3-A.
vsbattles.fandom.com

Big Bang

To quote from Wikipedia: "The Big Bang is the cosmological model of the universe, originally conceived to describe its origins, that is best supported by all cosmological observations. The essential idea is that the universe has expanded from a primordial hot and dense initial condition at some...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
Click to expand...
The later works elaborate in time being born with the big bang.

Unless you believe cosmology should be separated by canon too then yeah classic is 3-A.

Though it can be argued as high 3-A
 
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