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Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)

Lancelot_de_Cancer said:
The Classic indicates that Athena is at the level of Hades, Poseidon and Zeus
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While I definitely think that’s true, there’s still a hierarchy between them. Athena and Hades directly clashed 2 times. The first time, Athena blocks the sword, and is fine. But the second time, Athena was knocked around and bled, even though she blocked the attack that caused it with her shield. Her forcefields are op though, I will admit. Also, athena being above Zeus’ lightning doesn’t make any sense contextually. Otherwise Hades>Athena>Zeus lightning> Zeus, which doesn’t make much sense. And again, Possessed aiolia was stronger then Hades, so in the context of G, Cronos must be stronger then Hades and Athena as well.
 
Considering how ND is referenced in Assassin, Hyoga even showed a 13th zodiac sign ice cream at his bar, I think that they are meant to be connected in some way
 
StekFence said:
While I definitely think that’s true, there’s still a hierarchy between them. Athena and Hades directly clashed 2 times. The first time, Athena blocks the sword, and is fine. But the second time, Athena was knocked around and bled, even though she blocked the attack that caused it with her shield. Her forcefields are op though, I will admit. Also, athena being above Zeus’ lightning doesn’t make any sense contextually. Otherwise Hades>Athena>Zeus lightning> Zeus, which doesn’t make much sense. And again, Possessed aiolia was stronger then Hades, so in the context of G, Cronos must be stronger then Hades and Athena as well.
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Athena never uses the shield glow that repels all evil against Hades and never attacks with Nike, even in the first attack she blocked she could have attacked with Nike with her other hand, since she only uses one hand and her shield to stop Hades' attack. The problem is that Athena never attacked and never defended herself, her pacifist personality prevents her from attacking her opponent, but even in this situation we could see how Athena protects Seiya and the others with five indestructible barriers for Hades, even in normal conditions and without Athena having to use much of her power to protect her friends, she would have simply placed one of those barriers in front of her and Hades would have been unable to touch her, so basically Athena shows that she is at his level or even stronger. The same story promotes Athena as an invincible goddess who has never lost a single battle against her enemies (even with her pacifist personality limiting her), and literally Saga himself points out that only the weapons of this goddess are already at the level of Hades, Poseidon and Zeus. Who mentions that is Hypnos, one of the beings with more knowledge in this franchise, so based on what is described by this god the power of Athena and Hades is above the lightning of Zeus, as they can destroy that vessel that not even Zeus could destroy, they are simply on another level.

Not to mention what was shown in Next Dimension, where even a very weakened Athena as Sasha created a bond to connect her, Alone and Tenma forever, which is said to be indestructible even to the gods (basically Athena, even very weakened, created something indestructible even to the gods), and this is suppressing Hades and preventing him from being able to take full control of Alone.

So as I said this depends on each series, as Kurumada makes it clear that Athena is at the level of these gods and Kurumada himself indicates that they are above the power of Zeus' lightning, although this does not mean that they are much stronger than him, since surely Kurumada will grant Zeus some divine weapon/sacred treasure like the Trident of Poseidon, the Sword of Hades or Nike and Aegis, even in the illustration of Taizen you can see Zeus using a spear, probably it is with this weapon with which he is at the level of these or even a little above.
 
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I don’t recall it being stated Tartarus is different from the UW in any media, could be wrong though.

Hades is shown to dominate both in Classic and G from memory.

it is important to note that hell and Ely are Hades’ creation where as he’s never stated to make Tartarus.
 
Seems to me there's a clear distinction being made between Tartarus and the Underworld here
ab24a5dc7aab99481ed2be72d92f5be9.png
 
Being fair, in mythology itself, Tartarus is both part of and not part of the Underworld simultaneously.

The gate to Tartarus is in the Underworld, but Tartarus itself is "as far beneath Hades as heaven is above earth." but also "a gloomy place in Hades as far distant from earth as earth is distant from the sky."
 
Lancelot_de_Cancer said:
Athena never uses the shield glow that repels all evil against Hades and never attacks with Nike, even in the first attack she blocked she could have attacked with Nike with her other hand, since she only uses one hand and her shield to stop Hades' attack. The problem is that Athena never attacked and never defended herself, her pacifist personality prevents her from attacking her opponent, but even in this situation we could see how Athena protects Seiya and the others with five indestructible barriers for Hades, even in normal conditions and without Athena having to use much of her power to protect her friends, she would have simply placed one of those barriers in front of her and Hades would have been unable to touch her, so basically Athena shows that she is at his level or even stronger.
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Or it’s Pis. As you said, if she did exactly that, she’d Easily win, but the context of the story is that they struggle to beat each other. Tons of characters have ways to insta win or at least take the advantage super quickly but they don’t use them, not just her.
Lancelot_de_Cancer said:
Athena never uses the shield glow that repels all evil against Hades and never attacks with Nike, even in the first attack she blocked she could have attacked with Nike with her other hand, since she only uses one hand and her shield to stop Hades' attack. The problem is that Athena never attacked and never defended herself, her pacifist personality prevents her from attacking her opponent, but even in this situation we could see how Athena protects Seiya and the others with five indestructible barriers for Hades, even in normal conditions and without Athena having to use much of her power to protect her friends, she would have simply placed one of those barriers in front of her and Hades would have been unable to touch her, so basically Athena shows that she is at his level or even stronger. The same story promotes Athena as an invincible goddess who has never lost a single battle against her enemies (even with her pacifist personality limiting her), and literally Saga himself points out that only the weapons of this goddess are already at the level of Hades, Poseidon and Zeus. Who mentions that is Hypnos, one of the beings with more knowledge in this franchise, so based on what is described by this god the power of Athena and Hades is above the lightning of Zeus, as they can destroy that vessel that not even Zeus could destroy, they are simply on another level.

Not to mention what was shown in Next Dimension, where even a very weakened Athena as Sasha created a bond to connect her, Alone and Tenma forever, which is said to be indestructible even to the gods (basically Athena, even very weakened, created something indestructible even to the gods), and this is suppressing Hades and preventing him from being able to take full control of Alone.

So as I said this depends on each series, as Kurumada makes it clear that Athena is at the level of these gods and Kurumada himself indicates that they are above the power of Zeus' lightning, although this does not mean that they are much stronger than him, since surely Kurumada will grant Zeus some divine weapon/sacred treasure like the Trident of Poseidon, the Sword of Hades or Nike and Aegis, even in the illustration of Taizen you can see Zeus using a spear, probably it is with this weapon with which he is at the level of these or even a little above.
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I feel like we got away from the original topic of G cronos being stronger then athena. do you agree that he is?
 
SSJGeminiJJ said:
By this world they'd be referring to Tartarus because well, they're in Tartarus. Another point that seems to indicate a difference is the fact that the Saints can enter it and fight there without having awakened the 8th sense.
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I don’t think it’s as clear as that, the Hades only created Hell and elysium, the UW is not just Hell and Elysium.

Hades created the realms we consider the human afterlife, Tartarus which is a domain under Hadeses rule is not his creation but also in the or considered an underworld.

and the titans are in Cronuses labyrinth throughout G which is a universe in Tartarus.

we see Hades entering there at the end of G and even Cronus knows Hades can see them/is aware of what happens.
 
Are you saying that Tartarus isn't part of the UW in canon either or

Edit: I get it, so he didn't create Tartarus but it's still his domain. Ok, even if that were the case, I don't see the difference it makes to the discrepancy present here
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
I really agree, it would be confusing to have both of them in the same multiverse, both of which have never met.
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Well according to native Japanese speakers that are Fans of Saint Seiya. In GR it introduced the idea of infinite number of multiverses, and Shura destroyed many of these infinite multiverses through a chain reaction affect with causality hence why he said something like "I'm the judge/bringer of causality "

Again according to native Japanese speaking fans.
 
SSJGeminiJJ said:
Are you saying that Tartarus isn't part of the UW in canon either or

Edit: I get it, so he didn't create Tartarus but it's still his domain. Ok, even if that were the case, I don't see the difference it makes to the discrepancy present here
Click to expand...
I don't see a discrepancy at all, the term "Underworld" only means "abode of the dead", Tartarus is as much the Underworld as Hell is, the only actual thing of note is that Hades explicitly made Hell and Ely for humans and is what's considered the "afterlife", and he's shown in all media to dominate Tartarus, given he's the ruler of the "Underworld".

You're mostly using a random scan where the context is a Titan ambiguously describing past events (which his memories aren't even present for) to create a contradiction that doesn't exist.
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
I really agree, it would be confusing to have both of them in the same multiverse, both of which have never met.
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Sho, Shura and Tenma have met, and ND characters appear in GA, the intent is clear that they share a multiverse, which is or once was dominated by Gaia and Uranus.
 
Hasty12345 said:
Sho, Shura and Tenma have met, and ND characters appear in GA, the intent is clear that they share a multiverse, which is or once was dominated by Gaia and Uranus.
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Nothing mentions that they are the same, there are also different Gods in other timelines, like different Hades and Athena, and different golden and pegasus in other timelines. ND does not work with spin-offs and has never been mentioned to exist throughout the entire franchise, an ND timeline has no direct link to EP G or anyone else, it could very well be TLC spin-offs which is another alternate line that is not connected with canonical line directly during the work.
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Nothing mentions that they are the same, there are also different Gods in other timelines, like different Hades and Athena, and different golden and pegasus in other timelines. ND does not work with spin-offs and has never been mentioned to exist throughout the entire franchise, an ND timeline has no direct link to EP G or anyone else, it could very well be TLC spin-offs which is another alternate line that is not connected with canonical line directly during the work.
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i crossed out everything that you said that's wrong.

but you go back to cross scaling dbs and dbgt to scale goku.
 
Hasty12345 said:
i crossed out everything that you said that's wrong.

but you go back to cross scaling dbs and dbgt to scale goku.
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Bro, I didn't quote DB, that's totally unnecessary, I'm speaking out of respect for Saint Seiya, do me a thousand favors, don't quote third parties or anything like that, we're having a healthy debate like anyone else.
 
Hasty12345 said:
I don't see a discrepancy at all, the term "Underworld" only means "abode of the dead", Tartarus is as much the Underworld as Hell is, the only actual thing of note is that Hades explicitly made Hell and Ely for humans and is what's considered the "afterlife", and he's shown in all media to dominate Tartarus, given he's the ruler of the "Underworld".

You're mostly using a random scan where the context is a Titan ambiguously describing past events (which his memories aren't even present for) to create a contradiction that doesn't exist.
Click to expand...
The Titans literally distinguish a place in Tartarus from the Underworld in that scene, meaning in Episode G it's not considered part of it.

That's not the context of the scene at all, they aren't recalling past events from memory or anything like that. The scene's in real time and is about Hyperion and Iapetos finding the fact that Chronos in his sealed state was able to summon those giants from the Underworld surprising.
 
SSJGeminiJJ said:
The Titans literally distinguish a place in Tartarus from the Underworld in that scene, meaning in Episode G it's not considered part of it.
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They also distinguish Cronuses labyrinth as being it's own thing but we know it's in Tartarus, so I don't agree with your interpretation.

we know explicitly the labyrinth resides in Hades' domain and that it's in tartarus and we know explicitly Hades is ruler of the Underworld. This one statement doesn't debunk the actual shown/demonstrated cosmology.

I'd also like to see the raws to that scene, as most of originals G's translations are nightmares.
 
Hasty12345 said:
They also distinguish Cronuses labyrinth as being it's own thing but we know it's in Tartarus, so I don't agree with your interpretation.

we know explicitly the labyrinth resides in Hades' domain and that it's in tartarus and we know explicitly Hades is ruler of the Underworld. This one statement doesn't debunk the actual shown/demonstrated cosmology.

I'd also like to see the raws to that scene, as most of originals G's translations are nightmares.
Click to expand...
When was the Labyrinth ever distinguished from Tartarus as a whole?
0d79cccb9ca3df086cebe50c0916aed8.png

The translation seems to be correct here. Also, this isn't even the only detail that implies this, the fact that the Saints can enter or fight in Chronos Labyrinth and Tartartus at all without having awakened the 8th sense does as well.
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Nothing mentions that they are the same, there are also different Gods in other timelines, like different Hades and Athena, and different golden and pegasus in other timelines. ND does not work with spin-offs and has never been mentioned to exist throughout the entire franchise, an ND timeline has no direct link to EP G or anyone else, it could very well be TLC spin-offs which is another alternate line that is not connected with canonical line directly during the work.
Click to expand...
You do realize different timelines don't imply seperate canons, don't you?
 
did Cronus ever summon the giant to the labyrinth at that point? or did he summon it to Earth?

I think the whole context is missing, and it kight just be me, but I hate it when people send scans that have been cropped. Leaves a bad taste it my mouth.

As for the 8th sense, no Saint in G goes to Hell or Elysium, so that's not really an issue by any means.
 
AlexZiggy said:
You do realize different timelines don't imply seperate canons, don't you?
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he must, because that's how GT and DBS are scaled. He's just conveniently forgetting that, just like he must have forgot thinking I'm Australian is supposed somehow explain why I think the way I do can be seen as a form of racism/discrimination towards me. Little bro owes me an apology.
 
Hasty12345 said:
he must, because that's how GT and DBS are scaled. He's just conveniently forgetting that, just like he must have forgot thinking I'm Australian is supposed somehow explain why I think the way I do can be seen as a form of racism/discrimination towards me. Little bro owes me an apology.
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Don't we have an interview comparing G to Star Wars Episode 1 lol.
 
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