Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)

[Hasty12345]

It appears 8th sense users can't actually resurrect, and instead exist as cosmo spirits/souls to aid the Bronzes.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

It appears 8th sense users can't actually resurrect, and instead exist as cosmo spirits/souls to aid the Bronzes.

No, it's just Hyoga giving advice to a Saint who betrayed Athena for a silly reason, because from his experience ordinary humans or animals cannot come back to life (even Hyoga uses his dead mother as an example in that scene), because even with the 8th sense they cannot resurrect their loved ones who have died (although Asclepius can resurrect the dead and seems to have mastered the 8th sense, perhaps it is a more advanced ability), but we know that Asclepius can actually resurrect the dead and Hades can also resurrect them, this even happened in the Hades Arc with his master and the Gold Saints, even in later chapters Athena is said to have died by the sword (coming back to life only thanks to the 8th sense) and has also seen Ikki resurrected on several occasions.

Also, to help as spirits after death they do not need the 8th sense, because the cosmos/soul/spirit of the Saints has helped Athena and the Saints on several occasions, even Aiolos helps Seiya in his fight with Aiolia and appears in front of his brother to explain what happened with Athena, and also Olivia's soul appears to help Shoko and the Saintias, Aiolos' soul also returns to attack Saga's golden apple with Sagittarius' arrow, the soul of the Saintias appears to help Saori in her battle with Eris, etc. This does not seem to be an 8th sense ability.

As Buddha explains in the original manga the 8th sense is a power to overcome death (those who have become saints have overcome death, a reference to the many holy people in myths and religions who have returned from the dead, including Buddha himself, who in this franchise is said to have overcome sickness, old age and death).

 

[Hasty12345]

An 8th sense user stating "those who have died cannot return" proves he cannot resurrect even knowing the 8th sense. The literal god who rules over death, life and the afterlife bringing people back to life is not the same as an 8th sense user resurrecting themselves.

Shaka has only come back as a soul, as have the other Gold Saints and humans. Athena is a god, she does not conform to the human 8th sense users who have only showed themselves to exist as souls post-death.

The Golds should have type 4 immortality removed.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

An 8th sense user stating "those who have died cannot return" proves he cannot resurrect even knowing the 8th sense. The literal god who rules over death, life and the afterlife bringing people back to life is not the same as an 8th sense user resurrecting themselves.

Shaka has only come back as a soul, as have the other Gold Saints and humans. Athena is a god, she does not conform to the human 8th sense users who have only showed themselves to exist as souls post-death.

The Golds should have type 4 immortality removed.

No, it only says that their loved ones (such as Hyoga's mother and Gestalt's horse) cannot come back to life, because even with the 8th sense they cannot resurrect the dead. But this does not mean that the dead cannot be resurrected, for even Asclepius who is not a god can resurrect the dead and the dead have also been clearly seen to be resurrected in the Hades Arc by the power of Hades.

No, Shaka was alive, as Mu clearly said in that scene (it is never even said that it was a soul like the others that appeared later), just as Athena was also alive and even came out of the Underworld with her body, all thanks to the 8th sense. The gods in this franchise do not come back from the dead in this way and much less can they survive a weapon that is designed to kill them, Athena only came back to life thanks to the power of the 8th sense. Asclepius, who seems to dominate the 8th sense, can also come back to life and has an immortality that not even the gods can stop, that's why they could only trap him in a prison.

No, because that is the most basic description of the 8th sense in this franchise, because that is the knowledge that Buddha gives Shaka at that moment. And what you describe as the power of the 8th sense is just a basic ability that several Saints have demonstrated in this franchise.

 

[Hasty12345]

The amount of plot holes which arise from low-godly/type 4 immortality Gold Saints is ridiculous. The 8th sense only allows one to maintain their consciousness post-death and enter the UW alive, which allows them to bypass (not resist, not overcome) Hades' law. Since the users of the 8th sense do not conform to Hades' law, and can travel between both worlds as a soul, they can interact with the living world - this is all they've been shown to do.


As explained in Sho, the soul of a God is immortal, Athena is a God with divine properties, her Resurrection is not an 8th sense ability but a divine ability.

Furthermore, the golden dagger only bypasses the divine reflection of a god allowing them to be harmed and their physical body killed, it does not kill their divine soul it does not have feats of such, hence Athena regenerating is a result of her divinity. If Athena soul was destroyed, she wouldn't have ended up in the UW in the first place, rather she would have ended up in Tartarus or simply erased.

If it were an 8th sense ability, the 12 Golds would simply come back a protect the Temples in time of crisis. There's no way they'd willingly let an evil god resurrect in Sanctuary (revival of the 13th temple) and allow 2 weak silver Saints protect Seiya when an angel is trying to kill him.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

The amount of plot holes which arise from low-godly/type 4 immortality Gold Saints is ridiculous. The 8th sense only allows one to maintain their consciousness post-death and enter the UW alive, which allows them to bypass (not resist, not overcome) Hades' law. Since the users of the 8th sense do not conform to Hades' law, and can travel between both worlds as a soul, they can interact with the living world - this is all they've been shown to do.

As explained in Sho, the soul of a God is immortal, Athena is a God with divine properties, her Resurrection is not an 8th sense ability but a divine ability.

Furthermore, the golden dagger only bypasses the divine reflection of a god allowing them to be harmed and their physical body killed, it does not kill their divine soul it does not have feats of such, hence Athena regenerating is a result of her divinity. If Athena soul was destroyed, she wouldn't have ended up in the UW in the first place, rather she would have ended up in Tartarus or simply erased.

If it were an 8th sense ability, the 12 Golds would simply come back a protect the Temples in time of crisis. There's no way they'd willingly let an evil god resurrect in Sanctuary (revival of the 13th temple) and allow 2 weak silver Saints protect Seiya when an angel is trying to kill him.

There is no plot hole and it is only a theory based on a phrase that has nothing to do with the 8th sense. In the manga itself it is described as a power to overcome death by Buddha, who this franchise overcomes sickness, old age and death.

As I explained that is not an 8th sense ability, even the Saints who did not awaken this sense have this ability, even Suikyo's spirit helped Tenma in the last chapters.

Mayura is describing Eris in that scene, a goddess who is literally immortal even among the gods, to such an extent that not even Athena can kill her in any way. The other gods have never mentioned possessing that ability, that's why they can die in the story like Hypnos, Thanatos and Hades. Shun even tells Ikki to destroy his body and Hades' soul to kill the god.

The sword is described as a weapon to kill gods, this weapon can kill Athena and was literally given to Ikki to kill Athena again, but now without the 8th sense, the goddess will die by that sword, she is even dying by the poison of Samael, which is also said to kill gods. Piercing the divine reflection of the gods is not impressive, even the serpents of Asclepius pierced it to inject the poison of Samael to kill the goddess.

Saori only survived and traveled to the Underworld thanks to the 8th sense, this is the power that allowed Athena to survive something that would kill a god, because literally the immortality of the 8th sense transcends the gods, even Asclepius who probably dominates this sense cannot be destroyed by the gods and literally they could only trap him in a prison. Even when Dohko talks about the 8th sense he does not differentiate between Shaka and Athena, and how they traveled to the Underworld to fight Hades by awakening this sense. In the manga itself, Shaka was never described as a soul like the rest of the Gold Saints that appeared later.

 

[Hasty12345]

There is no plot hole and it is only a theory based on a phrase that has nothing to do with the 8th sense. In the manga itself it is described as a power to overcome death by Buddha, who this franchise overcomes sickness, old age and death.

You understand the 8th sense as described by Dohko allows one to attain it at death right? We can conclude that the dead who appear in spirit attained such a sense as their souls are not in the UW.

Furthermore, existing as an eternal soul is not only consistent for 8th sense users, but also fulfills everything Buddha describes without the need for type 4 immortality and regeneration. We've already seen 8th sense souls be combat able and use their full power, without the need for any sort of physical body (Shaka and the other 11 Golds in ND and Classic). Hence, they have "overcome death" without the need of any sort of regen or Resurrection.

The idea they can resurrect is redundant as they're not "dead' in the natural sense, they're "alive souls" so to speak.... Resurrection is redundant....

And Athena is the only "8th sense user" who has actually any kind of evidence suggesting she can regenerate a body or has actually literally resurrected and she's a god, so..... It is much more consistent to say it is a God ability and not an 8th sense ability.

Your interpretation is simply incoherent and contrived.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

You understand the 8th sense as described by Dohko allows one to attain it at death right? We can conclude that the dead who appear in spirit attained such a sense as their souls are not in the UW.

Furthermore, existing as an eternal soul is not only consistent for 8th sense users, but also fulfills everything Buddha describes without the need for type 4 immortality and regeneration. We've already seen 8th sense souls be combat able and use their full power, without the need for any sort of physical body (Shaka and the other 11 Golds in ND and Classic). Hence, they have "overcome death" without the need of any sort of regen or Resurrection.

The idea they can resurrect is redundant as they're not "dead' in the natural sense, they're "alive souls" so to speak.... Resurrection is redundant....

And Athena is the only "8th sense user" who has actually any kind of evidence suggesting she can regenerate a body or has actually literally resurrected and she's a god, so..... It is much more consistent to say it is a God ability and not an 8th sense ability.

Your interpretation is simply incoherent and contrived.

Dohko describes that at that moment the 8th sense appears because all senses possessed by humans are extinguished when they die, even the 7th sense also appears at that moment in ordinary humans. The ordinary humans do not dominate the senses in this franchise and so those senses only appear in them in death.

That is not consistent, because literally the ability you describe, the Saints already use it even without awakening the 8th sense. The ability to help as a spirit after death is something that even Saints like Aiolos, Olivia, Suikyo, Saintias and others have shown in this franchise even without that sense. This is not an 8th sense ability. The ability of the 8th sense as described by Buddha is to overcome death as those who were called saints (as I said it is a reference to the holy people who have come back from death in mythology and religions).

Gods don't have that kind of regeneration in this franchise and I've even explained it before. The being a god is not important, even Cardinale was going to kill Athena by decapitating her, so this has nothing to do with a gods' ability. The gods cannot regenerate a body and this is something consistent, because even the goal of the Saints was to destroy the body of Hades to avoid the god's plans. Athena only survives and returns with her body thanks to the 8th sense, which is why she survives even a weapon designed to kill a god.

Your interpretation is wrong and you even try to ignore what is described in the manga, where it is literally said that Shaka was alive in the Underworld, just like the other Saints who awakened that sense in life, and it is never said that he was a spirit like the other Saints who appeared later. Even the only being that can fully regenerate and come back from the dead is Asclepius, who probably masters the 8th sense.

 

[Hasty12345]

Dohko describes that at that moment the 8th sense appears because all senses possessed by humans are extinguished when they die, even the 7th sense also appears at that moment in ordinary humans. The ordinary humans do not dominate the senses in this franchise and so those senses only appear in them in death.

That is not consistent, because literally the ability you describe, the Saints already use it even without awakening the 8th sense. The ability to help as a spirit after death is something that even Saints like Aiolos, Olivia, Suikyo, Saintias and others have shown in this franchise even without that sense. This is not an 8th sense ability. The ability of the 8th sense as described by Buddha is to overcome death as those who were called saints (as I said it is a reference to the holy people who have come back from death in mythology and religions).

Like come on man, you're not even trying at this point.

The fact their souls aren't bound the to the UW is proof they have 8th sense.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Like come on man, you're not even trying at this point.

The fact their souls aren't bound the to the UW is proof they have 8th sense.

What Dohko says is only meant to describe ordinary humans, who only discover they have these senses when they die. This does not mean that all humans are free from the rules of the Underworld and overcome death, because they do not master these senses. Even a bronze saint like Jabu or any of the secondary bronze saints when they die will also appear for the first time their 7th sense and 8th sense, but this does not mean that they will become as powerful as the Gold Saints.

As I said it is just misinterpretation on your part, and the ability you describe is not linked to the 8th sense, because even Saints who never awakened that sense showed that ability. This is only because part of the spirit or cosmos of the Saints can remain in this world and manifest after death. The 8th sense is even a secret that Shaka revealed to the saints of this generation only during the Hades Arc, he even had to reveal this secret to Athena herself.

 

[Hasty12345]

I cannot help the description of the 8th sense in the Kurumanga is faulty, but none of it changes the fact no Gold Saint has ever regenerated their flesh from their soul nor have they ever reincarnated/resurrected.

They have only ever existed as soul-entities.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Something that really has no problem in the original manga, and it is literally said that Shaka was alive like Dohko, Seiya and the others in the Underworld, something that is also supported by the fact that Athena came back to life with her body undamaged thanks to the power of this sense. So one of the abilities of the 8th sense allows the Saints to overcome death and literally regenerate a body no matter how much damage it receives, in short it allows them to come back to life.

In the manga itself it is clearly stated that Athena and Shaka awakened the 8th sense, so they could travel to the Underworld "alive".

 

[Hasty12345]

Low-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other nonphysical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else.

- has never happened for an 8th sense user, existing as a free soul doesn't count for regeneration, nor does regenerating your soul from destruction.

Immortality via reincarnation or resurrection: Characters that are immortal because, whenever they die, they will simply reincarnate within another body or resurrect themselves at a later point in time.

- Also has never happened to an 8th sense user.

Are we also forgetting the fact that Dohko stating Athena and Shaka going to the UW alive contradicts them dying to begin with?

And if you read the panels before the one you conveniently didn't show, Dohko explicitly states: "But if Seiya manages to awaken his Alaya consciousness during the decent... He may just succeed in reaching the Underworld alive.

The next panel, Dohko confirms Shaka was actually well known among the Gold Saints for having the 8th sense, Dohko: "One reason Shaka was considered close to godhood was that among all knights he alone had awakened to his alaya consciousness."

And as you've showed, Shaka was indeed "alive" when entering the UW - and thus didn't die, as per the Seiya explanation, that Seiya in-fact needed to awaken to the 8th sense whilst alive PRIOR to dying in-order to be considered "alive" in the UW.

These panels are imperative as they explicitly and without prejudice state, that neither Shaka or Athena died, and that before they died they had traveled to the UW with their 8th sense (dimensional travel).


Also keep in mind that Athena stabbing herself would not have been an instant kill, divine ichor would have healed the cut more or less instantly and even for a human it would have taken time for her to die -thus allowing the chance for her to awaken to the 8th sense just prior to death then going to the UW.

And Shaka had the 8th sense (as Dohko explained) well before his fight with the Ghost Saints, so he was able to go to the UW whenever he wanted, so him dying to the Athena Exclamation is also unlikely based on Dohko's explanation of the 8th sense.

Furthermore, when did Aiolos awaken the 8th sense? If it wasn't before death it was at death or after death, any 3 of those options prove that it's technically possible for any Saint to do it which proves that all souls of Saints who have come to help more than likely have the 8th sense due to what we know known users of the sense have been able to do - appear as souls to aid the alive Saint.

The 8th sense is even a secret that Shaka revealed to the saints of this generation only during the Hades Arc, he even had to reveal this secret to Athena herself.

It's so much of a secret Dohko knew he had it long before he fought the Ghost Saints, as him having the 8th sense was apart of his reputation as man closest to god.

Which, if you think about how the 8th sense only brings him closer to God, then what power above the 8th sense do gods have? Even Buddha only states that Shaka will become the most "godlike" among mortals (godlike meaning "resembling a god" or "god in qualities" implying Gods have the qualities of the 8th sense), which still implies gods have a power beyond the 8th sense....

Because no one has ever dared to say that Shaka surpasses the Gods with 8th sense, that's only something you (and a select few others) go around saying...

 

[Hasty12345]

Also, just to clarify;

are you proposing Athena and Shaka died, came back to life then went to the UW?

or died and ended up in the UW alive?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Low-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other nonphysical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else.

- has never happened for an 8th sense user, existing as a free soul doesn't count for regeneration, nor does regenerating your soul from destruction.

Immortality via reincarnation or resurrection: Characters that are immortal because, whenever they die, they will simply reincarnate within another body or resurrect themselves at a later point in time.

- Also has never happened to an 8th sense user.

Are we also forgetting the fact that Dohko stating Athena and Shaka going to the UW alive contradicts them dying to begin with?

And if you read the panels before the one you conveniently didn't show, Dohko explicitly states: "But if Seiya manages to awaken his Alaya consciousness during the decent... He may just succeed in reaching the Underworld alive.

The next panel, Dohko confirms Shaka was actually well known among the Gold Saints for having the 8th sense, Dohko: "One reason Shaka was considered close to godhood was that among all knights he alone had awakened to his alaya consciousness."

And as you've showed, Shaka was indeed "alive" when entering the UW - and thus didn't die, as per the Seiya explanation, that Seiya in-fact needed to awaken to the 8th sense whilst alive PRIOR to dying in-order to be considered "alive" in the UW.

These panels are imperative as they explicitly and without prejudice state, that neither Shaka or Athena died, and that before they died they had traveled to the UW with their 8th sense (dimensional travel).


Also keep in mind that Athena stabbing herself would not have been an instant kill, divine ichor would have healed the cut more or less instantly and even for a human it would have taken time for her to die -thus allowing the chance for her to awaken to the 8th sense just prior to death then going to the UW.

And Shaka had the 8th sense (as Dohko explained) well before his fight with the Ghost Saints, so he was able to go to the UW whenever he wanted, so him dying to the Athena Exclamation is also unlikely based on Dohko's explanation of the 8th sense.

Furthermore, when did Aiolos awaken the 8th sense? If it wasn't before death it was at death or after death, any 3 of those options prove that it's technically possible for any Saint to do it which proves that all souls of Saints who have come to help more than likely have the 8th sense due to what we know known users of the sense have been able to do - appear as souls to aid the alive Saint.

Low-Godly's description indicates that he should regenerate after his body was destroyed, something he did in the manga where he came back to life after he was completely destroyed by the Athena, he is even one of the characters who has actually demonstrated regeneration at this level in the franchise, because the gods don't have any regeneration feats of this level. Although there is part of the manga that might indicate that even Shaka's regeneration is not that impressive, but that's a different topic.

The very description of the 8th sense in the franchise indicates that it comes back to life, even in that scene Shiryu points out that Athena and Shaka awakened their 8th sense to travel to the Underworld alive, something that confirms that they were alive and then we saw how Athena left the Underworld alive. Nowhere does it say that Shaka was a soul in the Underworld, even Dohko never describes Shaka as he did with the other Gold Saints when they appeared in the Wailing Wall.

The fact that he awakened the 8th sense is only one of the reasons why he is known as the man closest to being a god in the Sanctuary, but it is not the only reason why he is known in this way, as explained in Next Dimension the Virgo Saint is also named as the man closest to the gods for his ability to talk to Buddha, that is why Shijima is also named as the man closest to the gods. We only know that Shaka already had awakened the 8th sense in the Hades Arc, but we don't know at what moment he reached this sense, he could have even reached it in his fight against Dysnomia where he acquires a greater understanding of the universe.

In the manga itself it is also clearly stated that Shaka died because of the Athena Exclamation, this was the objective of the fight and that's why he asks them to use this technique. Shaka died, but thanks to the 8th sense he managed to come back to life and enter the Underworld alive, something that is even pointed out in the manga, because you can not enter the Underworld alive if they do not awaken the 8th sense, because this place immediately kills those who do not awaken this sense.

It is clearly stated that Athena died at the time, even in the sequel this detail is pointed out, and the regeneration of the gods is not impressive enough to treat a mortal wound of that level (much less if it is from a weapon with the power to kill gods), and Athena's blood is never said to have healing properties in the original manga or even in Next Dimension. Athena is even about to die from Samael's poison and only Asclepius can cure her.

The secret and power of the 8th sense was only revealed during the Hades Arc, before this they did not know what the power of this sense was, even Athena herself did not know about this sense, even when she observes that the spirit of Aiolos appears in front of her to talk to Aiolia (in Saintia Sho she also observes that the Saintias appear to help her), even Kurumada himself seems to consider that Aiolos is in the Underworld.

It's so much of a secret Dohko knew he had it long before he fought the Ghost Saints, as him having the 8th sense was apart of his reputation as man closest to god.

Which, if you think about how the 8th sense only brings him closer to God, then what power above the 8th sense do gods have? Even Buddha only states that Shaka will become the most "godlike" among mortals (godlike meaning "resembling a god" or "god in qualities" implying Gods have the qualities of the 8th sense), which still implies gods have a power beyond the 8th sense....

Because no one has ever dared to say that Shaka surpasses the Gods with 8th sense, that's only something you (and a select few others) go around saying...

The concept of god or deva is different in Buddhism, as I explained before.

The 8th sense is a power that the gods do not possess, even Athena did not know about this sense and uses this power to enter alive to the Underworld and overcome death, even when she kills herself with a weapon to kill the gods, a weapon that can kill any god and can even kill her now that she does not have 8th sense. Shaka surpasses the gods on a level of existence, not in something as simple as power, because by mastering the 8th sense he has transcended even death on a level that they cannot reach without awakening this sense.

This is not the first time that Shaka surpasses the gods in some specific aspect, he was also able to adapt and escape to the dimension where Dysnomia transports him, a dimension that not even the power of the gods could reach.

Shaka surpasses the gods in immortality and level of existence, so now he can even move through time, an ability they do not have. Asclepius also has abilities they do not have, although he has not yet become a true god and the Pope himself claims that Asclepius is weaker than them in power.

 

[Hasty12345]

The concept of god or deva is different in Buddhism, as I explained before.

Ok, why is this relevant? The concept of "God" in Saint Seiya are the Greek and other deities in the verse.

The 8th sense is a power that the gods do not possess, even Athena did not know about this sense and uses this power to enter alive to the Underworld and overcome death, even when she kills herself with a weapon to kill the gods, a weapon that can kill any god and can even kill her now that she does not have 8th sense. Shaka surpasses the gods on a level of existence, not in something as simple as power, because by mastering the 8th sense he has transcended even death on a level that they cannot reach without awakening this sense.

blah blah blah head canon literally contradicted in every scan referring to Shaka.

This is not the first time that Shaka surpasses the gods in some specific aspect, he was also able to adapt and escape to the dimension where Dysnomia transports him, a dimension that not even the power of the gods could reach.

Not relevant in the slightest.

Shaka overcomes the gods in immortality and level of existence, so now he can even move through time, an ability they do not have. Even Asclepius has abilities they do not have, even though he has not yet become a true god and the Pope himself claims that Asclepius is weaker than them in power.

Shaka becomes the most "godlike", which inherently he possess qualities similar to that of the gods. Furthermore, time travelling is not an 8th sense ability, the entire plot of ND is contingent on Athena (an 8th sense user) not being able to time travel.

 

[Hasty12345]

something he did in the manga where he came back to life after he was completely destroyed by the Athena

His soul appeared in front of the ghost saints, "regeneration" requires a body to be regenerated.... not a separate/more fundamental aspect of existence.



So no body is regenerated in this scene.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Ok, why is this relevant? The concept of "God" in Saint Seiya are the Greek and other deities in the verse.

Why it is a different concept, even in the series itself it is different, that is why Buddha is not shown as a deity like Athena and the Greek gods, it is even indicated that the devas/gods exist on a different plane (a human can even reincarnate into a deva/god on that plane of existence) and those who enter that plane can fall back into any of the other planes.

blah blah blah head canon literally contradicted in every scan referring to Shaka.

The only one who is inventing a head canon is you, because what I describe is in the manga, where it is clearly stated that Athena does not know this sense and she literally had to awaken it to enter the Underworld alive and even to come back to life after committing suicide. It is also clearly stated that the 8th sense allows to overcome death and it is literally said that Shaka came back to life.

Not relevant in the slightest.

It is relevant, because it shows that Shaka was able to overcome the gods in a specific aspect, something that also happened with the 8th sense, where he achieves an immortality superior to the gods and a power that not even a goddess like Athena knew. Now you seem to be forgetting that Athena did not know the 8th sense and it was Shaka who told her this secret.

Shaka becomes the most "godlike", which inherently he possess qualities similar to that of the gods. Furthermore, time travelling is not an 8th sense ability, the entire plot of ND is contingent on Athena (an 8th sense user) not being able to time travel.

No, as I said it is a quality that is given to him for various reasons, even one like talking to Buddha, that's why Shijima is also named as the man closest to the gods, even when he has not awakened the 8th sense. Athena does not master this sense, even Dhoko also clearly says that the Bronze Saints thanks to Athena's blood can only reach it for a few seconds. This is not a power of the gods. Also Athena does not actually exist on a plane beyond everything like Nirvana. Asclepius can interfere with the time, he can even observe all the movements of the universe (past, present and future) and controls Shaina to kill Seiya, a power that the gods also do not possess.

His soul appeared in front of the ghost saints, "regeneration" requires a body to be regenerated.... not a separate/more fundamental aspect of existence.

He then appears alive in the Underworld, thus regenerating his body there, similar to how Athena also appears alive and undamaged there.

 

[Hasty12345]

literally said that Shaka came back to life.

do show me where that very literal statement is

Dhoko also clearly says that the Bronze Saints thanks to Athena's blood can only reach it for a few seconds. This is not a power of the gods.

Athena's blood allows the Bronzes to awaken the 8th sense.... but it's not the power of gods..... right.


Also, why are you basing the knowledge of every god on the knowledge of the human reincarnation of Athena?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

do show me where that very literal statement is

I just posted the scene, where Shiryu himself clearly says that Athena and Shaka awakened the 8th sense, so they traveled to the Underworld alive.

Athena's blood allows the Bronzes to awaken the 8th sense.... but it's not the power of gods..... right.

Also, why are you basing the knowledge of every god on the knowledge of the human reincarnation of Athena?

Literally, Dohko himself says that they could only awaken this sense for a few seconds, and that they had to raise their cosmos to the maximum to achieve a miracle. They and Athena never mastered this sense. Only the Gold Saints have mastered the senses, because they have superior knowledge and control of this aspect.

Why does she have the knowledge of Athena, a goddess of war and wisdom, and this goddess of great status even among the Olympians themselves does not know this sense.

 

[Hasty12345]

The abilities aside, I find it funny you’re treating the 8th sense like it’s some secret that only Shaka knew, but Dohko is the one who shows the most knowledge on the sense in the whole manga…

Lancelot: It was Shaka’s little secret

Dohko: well you see, this is the 8th sense, here are it’s origins, here’s why Shaka and Athena needed it, and why you guys need it.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

It is a knowledge of Shaka, one that he obtained in his conversations with Buddha and probably some experiences of his life like the travel to the dimension or plane of existence where the whole multiverse is connected in his fight with Dysnomia (the way the 8th sense works overcoming even the laws of the universe is similar to Dysnomia's ability and what Shaka did to be able to fight in that dimension), or even the dimension where he ended up after Ikki exploded, where he observed a forbidden knowledge (this is the reason why Dysnomia was so fascinated with him). Shaka simply grants this knowledge to the other Saints and even to Athena herself. Dohko may have great knowledge in some things as a Saint who has lived hundreds of years, he even knows the future (because he talked to Shiryu in the past), but this is not something he has discovered because he does not speak with Gautama Buddha.

 

[Hasty12345]

You understand that Dohko showing he fully understands the 8th sense down to how it functions and can be awakened pretty much debunks the idea it was a secret right? In fact, after revising the chapters, I struggle to find any hard indication as to whether Athena knew about the 8th sense or not. Athena whole view on Shaka’s death was about her resolve, not her knowledge. So I’m gonna need you to post scans stating Athena didn’t know about the 8th sense.

also, how can Kanon die if he overcame death to go to the UW alive?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

A knowledge that Shaka granted to them and later confirmed in Hades Arc during the fight against the Darks. Literally, Shaka is the one who sends the message with the knowledge of this sense to Athena. Dohko himself says that they were never able to enter the Underworld in the past, only this time with the secret of the 8th sense revealed by Shaka were they able to enter and end the holy war against Hades forever.

Kanon died in the Underworld and destroyed himself with the Galaxian Explosion at maximum power (in suicide mode), he probably destroyed himself body and soul at that moment like the Gold Saints.

 

[Hasty12345]

I’m sure you’ll edit your post with scans in a few minutes.

And don’t think I haven’t noticed you’ve changed posts After I responded to them, absolutely disgusting debate etiquette.

 

[Hasty12345]

The Gold Saints came back….

So that doesn’t excuse Kanon dying.

 

[Hasty12345]

Kanon out here using a “mid-godly immortality negating super Galaxian explosion” on a dude with no immortality to speak of… You’re suggesting Kanon has hax that could literally yeet a god out of existence that he chose to use on an already dead guy and himself?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

As beings that exist on a completely different plane of existence, Kanon is probably also in that place.

I never said that he destroyed a being with mid-godly regeneration, I only said that he destroyed himself in body and soul, something that the Saints can do in this manga. Gods don't have mid-godly regeneration in this series. Shun even tells Ikki to destroy his body and Hades' soul to defeat the god.

The immortality of the gods in this series lies mainly in their souls, because they can exist as a soul even if their bodies are destroyed, but they have never regenerated their body completely. This does not qualify as mid-godly regeneration or even low-godly regeneration.

 

[Hasty12345]

Sounds like you have no actual explanation and you’ve realised your interpretation is incoherent.

 

[Hasty12345]

As beings that exist on a completely different plane of existence, Kanon is probably also in that place.

I never said that he destroyed a being with mid-godly regeneration, I only said that he destroyed himself in body and soul, something that the Saints can do in this manga. Gods don't have mid-godly regeneration in this series. Shun even tells Ikki to destroy his body and Hades' soul to defeat the god.

You’ve said on multiple occasions that the Golds destroyed their souls and bodies at the wailing wall. We see them return in ND.

that’s virtually mid-godly, I’m not saying gods have mid-godly, I’m saying Kanon negated his own regeneration (8th sense users have come back from soul and body destruction) to defeat Rada.

this is called a “steel man”, I’m using your argument/interpretation and showing you it doesn’t work.

I never said Gods have mid-godly, in-fact I said the opposite of you actually read what I said… I said Kanon has hax that could yeet a god out of existence…. Literally the opposite of saying they have mid-godly…

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

No, I just keep confirming that you have an incorrect interpretation of this manga.

You’ve said on multiple occasions that the Golds destroyed their souls and bodies at the wailing wall. We see them return in ND.

that’s virtually mid-godly, I’m not saying gods have mid-godly, I’m saying Kanon negated his own regeneration (8th sense users have come back from soul and body destruction) to defeat Rada.

this is called a “steel man”, I’m using your argument/interpretation and showing you it doesn’t work.

I never said Gods have mid-godly, in-fact I said the opposite of you actually read what I said… I said Kanon has hax that could yeet a god out of existence…. Literally the opposite of saying they have mid-godly…

It is not regeneration, because they never regenerated their bodies at that time (I even explained this before in an old topic and why they do not qualify for mid-godly regeneration) they only came back as spirits or beings that exist a completely different plane of existence, even we could only see them come back for a few seconds before disappearing again.

Kanon is probably destroyed in body and soul at that moment, even if he could come back he would only come back for a few seconds like the other Gold Saints with that sense, not that they could come back perfectly or could interact freely with the physical world after what happens at the Wailing Wall. Although this does not change that the Gold Saints returned, even though a god would disappear if his body and soul is completely destroyed.

 

[Hasty12345]

Sounds like a bunch of head canon. You can’t even prove Kanon destroyed his own soul. He’s never destroyed anyones soul with his GE and he’s used it plenty…

he’s dead because Golds don’t have low godly or type 4. They have only ever returned as souls.

you just refuse to accept the inconsistencies of that interpretation.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

It is Kanon's most powerful attack in suicide mode and the Saints has the power to destroy his opponent's body and soul, even Shun tells Ikki to destroy his body and Hades' soul to defeat the god. This is a fact, not a head canon like what you say, something that is not uncommon coming from you.

The Gold Saints with the 8th sense have low-godly regeneration, even if you don't like it, because this is the description of the 8th sense as it appears in the story, where Athena and Shaka managed to come back to life thanks to that sense.

Although we will probably have to review the regeneration of the gods in the future.

 

[Hasty12345]

Dude, the Athena Exclamation is an attack far more powerful than Kanon and it didn’t destroy Shaka’s soul.

you have no argument.

and I do like low godly Golds…. It’s just not true.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

The Gold Saints did not seek to destroy Shaka's soul and only wished to kill him, and the Geminis Saint can destroy souls even without the Galaxian Explosion, so Saga destroys the souls Shaka summons with his attack (is even one of the Saints who showed this ability). This is not only Kanon's Galaxian Explosion, it is a suicidal move with all its cosmos and life.

You literally have no arguments and now you even start denying what has been established in the franchise, this is so sad.

The low-godly regeneration of the Gold Saints with 8th sense is a fact, which is even described in the manga.

 

[Hasty12345]

jabu can destroy souls as well, that’s called “NPI”.

No one is saying that Saints can’t destroy souls, but destroying the soul of a person and destroying a random soul a different feats that have different classification.

but I’ll humour you. Show me one person Kanon or Saga have hit with a GE who had their soul and body simultaneously destroyed.

because it sure as hell doesn’t make sense for Kanon to go out of his way to destroy his soul when Rada doesn’t have 8th sense to require a soul being destroyed.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

jabu can destroy souls as well, that’s called “NPI”.

No one is saying that Saints can’t destroy souls, but destroying the soul of a person and destroying a random soul a different feats that have different classification.

but I’ll humour you. Show me one person Kanon or Saga have hit with a GE who had their soul and body simultaneously destroyed.

because it sure as hell doesn’t make sense for Kanon to go out of his way to destroy his soul when Rada doesn’t have 8th sense to require a soul being destroyed.

This is different, because it has been described that the Saints can destroy body and soul, even Shun tells Ikki to destroy his body and soul of Hades to kill the god, and they also killed Hypnos and Thanatos. In Saintia Sho, you also have the Gold Saints destroying the body and soul of the dryades, when they discovered that they were immortal, even Milo also hurt Eris' body and soul with his attack. Cain's Galaxian Explosion even affected the the opponent's seimeiten (star points), something that even negates Ikki's immortality and almost kills him.

It is a suicidal move where the Saint placed his whole life, similar to what the Gold Saints did at the Wailing Wall. This was never a normal Saint attack and it is about all the power the Saint can unleash.

 

[Hasty12345]

You literally cannot prove Kanon targeted his own soul with the attack…

But I do know how to prove low godly gold saints, you just don’t like it.

I’ll give you a hint. Two words Pope Kanon

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Kanon's (a Saint who even awakened the 8th sense) most powerful attack in his entire life, a suicide move in which he puts his life, cannot destroy body and soul, when the attacks of Ikki, Seiya, Shiryu, Hyoga, Milo, Aiolia and Aldebaran can do it, or even Cain's Galaxian Explosion almost killed Ikki by affecting something like the seimeiten. This even sounds strange and it seems you have no arguments left, and just start denying what is established in the franchise.

 

[Hasty12345]

Kanon's (a Saint who even awakened the 8th sense) most powerful attack in his entire life, a suicide move in which he puts his life, cannot destroy the body and soul of his opponent, when the attacks of Ikki, Seiya, Shiryu, Hyoga, Milo, Aiolia and Aldebaran can do it, or even Cain's Galaxian Blast almost killed Ikki by affecting something like the seimeiten. This even sounds strange and it seems you have no arguments left, and just start denying what is established in the franchise.

No, you just can’t prove your position because it’s not true. Why would Kanon target his own soul when he knows he can regenerate from it and take Rada out for free?

makes no sense. Even if he can target souls at will like other saints (which I’m not saying he can’t), there’s absolutely no logic in saying he’d target his own here.

the only way he’s destroy his own soul, is if it’s a passive ability where all cosmo users target body and souls inherently, in which case we’d have a solid case for mid-godly Ikki I reckon.